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That will explain why the Taliban is now governing in Afghanistan ......the superpower which controls the world economy, has the most advanced weapons, and sets the rules, obviously decided that they should.
The Taliban is not economical viable so they let them be for now.
The Middle East is much easier to manage.
they let them be for now.
That's damn decent of our American cousins, I didn't think they even liked them!
The Middle East is much easier to manage.
Ah yes, the Middle East isn't complicated like Afghanistan.
Ah yes, the Middle East isn't complicated like Afghanistan.
Don't feed the troll, Ernie.
Don't feed the troll, Ernie.
Afghanistan
- Geographically, all their neighbours are nuclear armed and they have friends.
- The country is mountainous.
- They have no oil. Control oil. Control the world economy. i.e. petrol dollar. Now US is the world largest oil producer.
Middle East
- Geographically, none are nuclear armed. Even Iran (not nuclear armed) is weak due to nearly four decade of sanctions.
- The region has oil and with only one weak opposition left i.e. Iran. Control the oil, control the world economy.
- The rest of the Middle East countries are under US and Israeli "control".
- They have a staging ground in Israel (nuclear armed) and many other locations.
- Israel is the "master" of Middle East.
It looks like the figures from the Gaza health authorities, which the UK media likes to remind everyone is allegedly control by Hamas (they never mention that the IDF is controlled by Likud) might have been seriously under reporting the level of deaths caused by the Israeli onslaught
Almost 84,000 people died in Gaza between October 2023 and early January 2025 as a result of the Hamas–Israel war, estimates the first independent survey of deaths.
And that figure is obviously now 6 months out of date.
Old news ^^ cabinet ministers in the Israeli government have defended the use of rape by the IDF. Apparently rape is only unacceptable when allegedly committed by Hamas.
Although we have to take the Israeli government's word that Hamas has committed rape, unlike the case of rape committed by the IDF there is no damning evidence of rape committed by Hamas, it's a case of whether we trust the far-right genocidal Israeli government to tell the truth.
And of course unlike ministers in the Israeli government Hamas leaders don't try to publicly defend the use of rape.
That will be the Israeli government which the UK Labour Party supports and helps btw. And yes I know that not all Labour Party members do.
Old news ^^ cabinet ministers in the Israeli government have defended the use of rape by the IDF. Apparently rape is only unacceptable when allegedly committed by Hamas.
Perhaps old news to such as yourself but others may be informed
Link to article published in Haaretz yesterday from a historian who had access to the Gaza Strip
'Now I Understand Why Israel Is Denying Journalists Access to the Appalling Scene in Gaza'
BBC running an article from an unnamed Hamas security officer claiming details of the internal security situation and the forces looking to fill the void left by a weakened Hamas.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo
BibiC peddling anti-Hamas propaganda. Who’d of thunk it?
peddling anti-Hamas propaganda
The unnamed "security officer" making the allegations is apparently a lieutenant colonel in Hamas so presumably not anti-Hamas.
I have no idea what they mean by security officer, does the UK have lieutenant colonel security officers? Whatever it means it certainly sounds as if a security officer should be an authority on the situation.
What I find particularly interesting is this :
Let's be realistic here - there's barely anything left of the security structure. Most of the leadership, about 95%, are now dead... The active figures have all been killed," he said. "So really, what's stopping Israel from continuing this war?"
"Logically, it has to continue until the end"
Because it completely mirrors the Israeli government's position, ie, "Hamas is totally destroyed but we have to issue evacuation orders because we need to intensify the war".
He then goes on to comprehensively criticise Hamas's behaviour for the last 17 years. I don't know how he managed to contact the BBC about perhaps he should hand himself in to the IDF. Unless of course he is fictitious character created by the IDF? Does the IDF engage in misinformation?
I don't know how he managed to contact the BBC
Has Lisa Nandy been informed that the BibiC are broadcasting the views of a "Hamas security officer" ?
This thread is losing any sort of discussion. Sadly like many other STW threads it seems to be only allowed one viewpoint and any anything else gets quickly stomped on.
Let's be clear - what Israel is doing is terrible, it must be stopped and the world must be kept aware of what's happening.
That said, it is still possible to look at more detail and allow other opinions into the thread, with rational argument against them if necessary. I can genuinely see where people are coming from with the view of "what Israel is doing is so terrible we must focus on that to the exclusion of all else", even if I disagree with it myself (in the context of a forum thread!), but really it's getting ridiculous at this point.
Example: Hanchenkuchen's posts. Agree or disagree, but all I see is someone posting about how hatred is unhelpful and giving some views on the influences on Israeli views. Then some of the main contributors here apparently don't even bother to read it, one writes it off as "meaningless blether" and one ignores it simply because of who the poster might be. Key word "apparently".
It is starting to seem like any defence of any aspect of Israeli behaviour, any, however slight or tangential, is taken to mean support or excuse for Israel. It doesn't. This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
I understand anger, I even understand hatred, especially if there is a personal element, but I don't think we should be blinded by it.
My view - the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF are so horrific that there is simply no place for any other discussion. there is no justification for it, it is not a "war"
Any justification they had for going into Gaza after the horrific attacks are long gone. Hamas is no longer a fighting force and has not been for a long time. the Israeli government are intent on killing or driving out of Gaza every single arab and also driving them out of the west bank. They have deliberately and systematically destroyed all civil infrastructure, killed journalists and political leaders, deliberately targeted healthcare and healthcare workers. they are using starvation as a tool to accomplish the removal dead or alive of every Palestinian
We need to call it out for what it is. The complete destruction of Gaza and the removal or killing of every arab in Gaza or the west bank.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
"Humanity"? Too funny.
If we want to widen the discussion a little, let's consider the way that the genocide has been normalised. The IDF kill 100 Palestinians a day and it doesn't make the newspapers. The UK blatantly supplies military equipment to Israel - nothing happens. The national broadcaster is clearly prejudiced - nada. Peaceful protesters are arrested on terrorist charges - zip. Further afield, the Eu talks about trade sanctions - zilch. In Holland, Israeli football hooligans are let off after CCTV evidence off their violent racist rampage mysteriously gets deleted. Where exactly are we going? Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
My view - the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF are so horrific that there is simply no place for any other discussion. there is no justification for it, it is not a "war"
Any justification they had for going into Gaza after the horrific attacks are long gone. Hamas is no longer a fighting force and has not been for a long time. the Israeli government are intent on killing or driving out of Gaza every single arab and also driving them out of the west bank. They have deliberately and systematically destroyed all civil infrastructure, killed journalists and political leaders, deliberately targeted healthcare and healthcare workers. they are using starvation as a tool to accomplish the removal dead or alive of every PalestinianWe need to call it out for what it is. The complete destruction of Gaza and the removal or killing of every arab in Gaza or the west bank.
Agreed. But why can't we discuss the socio-political influences that led up to it and that are preventing an end to it?
"Humanity"? Too funny.
If we want to widen the discussion a little, let's consider the way that the genocide has been normalised. The IDF kill 100 Palestinians a day and it doesn't make the newspapers. The UK blatantly supplies military equipment to Israel - nothing happens. The national broadcaster is clearly prejudiced - nada. Peaceful protesters are arrested on terrorist charges - zip. Further afield, the Eu talks about trade sanctions - zilch. In Holland, Israeli football hooligans are let off after CCTV evidence off their violent racist rampage mysteriously gets deleted. Where exactly are we going? Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
Again agreed, but:
Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
Yes. Why should we all get drawn into the circle of hatred? If I may remind you of the context:
So to blame all people of crimes that are being masterminded by a tiny elite, is to blame Humanity. And really, we're not so bad if we all get a fair slice each, are we?
So this is why I challenge attitudes such as blaming 'Israel' as though it's one homogenous entity with no nuance; as though it's some unfaceted monolith. Let's look within, to see where are own humanity lies, let's not get carried away and sucked into the whole spiral of hatred. Yes, of course we must abhor the genocide, but we mustn't abhor humanity. The only way forward for humanity is peace. Hatred does not lead to peace.
This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Absolutely, everyone knows just how vile the genocidal far-right regime is, very few people need convincing of that. Besides the atrocities they commit on a daily basis are simply too many to list.
Which is why it is important to also focus on many other aspects of the genocide including the complicity of western governments, and also the widespread global opposition to it, not least from many Jews and Israelis such as Ilan Pappe, Miko Peled, and Gabor Mate.
This thread is losing any sort of discussion. Sadly like many other STW threads it seems to be only allowed one viewpoint and any anything else gets quickly stomped on.
Let's be clear - what Israel is doing is terrible, it must be stopped and the world must be kept aware of what's happening.
That said, it is still possible to look at more detail and allow other opinions into the thread, with rational argument against them if necessary. I can genuinely see where people are coming from with the view of "what Israel is doing is so terrible we must focus on that to the exclusion of all else", even if I disagree with it myself (in the context of a forum thread!), but really it's getting ridiculous at this point.
Example: Hanchenkuchen's posts. Agree or disagree, but all I see is someone posting about how hatred is unhelpful and giving some views on the influences on Israeli views. Then some of the main contributors here apparently don't even bother to read it, one writes it off as "meaningless blether" and one ignores it simply because of who the poster might be. Key word "apparently".
It is starting to seem like any defence of any aspect of Israeli behaviour, any, however slight or tangential, is taken to mean support or excuse for Israel. It doesn't. This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
I understand anger, I even understand hatred, especially if there is a personal element, but I don't think we should be blinded by it.
Thank you Ossify. Nice to see some objectivity here.
I was at a music event on Saturday night, attended by lots of young people. It was a lot of fun; felt very warm and inclusive, very safe, and great sounds. Everyone had a fantastic time.
At one point, however, there was a loud chant of 'death death to the IDF'. I felt a little uncomfortable, but didn't feel threatened in any way, and it was much moire an outpouring of anger and frustration rather than actual hatred for other people. In that context, I saw nothing really 'offensive'. And knowing quite a number of people there, I know it wasn't hateful towards one particular group. In fact I know there were a number of Jewish people there, and saw some of them joining in.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways. But hey; it was a group of people having a moment of solidarity and feeling part of being in the 'right' side. And that's fine. It was performative, in much the same way as many posts on here are. People want to be seen to be 'nice', in a world where people are increasingly divided and in conflict with one another. 'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'. Yes, we get it. You're not saying anything we don't already know. But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything. So I get the sentiment of wanting to destroy a military organisation, many of whose leaders and members are guilty of horrific war crimes in a genocide. I want to see the Israeli regime crushed and replaced by people with just an ounce of humanity, at least.
But the key to actually getting anywhere near achieving peace in Palestine, is in applying intelligence, and by that, I mean emotional intelligence. To think beyond your instinctive reactions, to put aside your hatred, and having empathy for your 'enemy', even. And this means trying to understand the psyche of many Isreali people; why do they think the way they do? What forces influence how they think and act? Because only by understanding this, can you combat it and create an alternative. This was the fault of Labour in 2010, when Gordon Brown failed to empathise with Gillian Duffy, and dismissed her as a 'bigoted old woman (even if she was). Labour failed to apply any emotional intelligence there, and this led to a chain of events that has led us to where we are right now. With a Labour government still failing to apply any emotional intelligence to governing society.
It doesn't take much intelligence to hate. But it takes a lot of intelligence to understand.
It's all a bit of balance, really.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways.
...
But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything.
That's all very well and perhaps the perfect ideal, but on the other hand in the real world, we do need to shout about it in order to get anything actually done!
I think both are necessary. Both up to a point, of course.
'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'.
Once again you are conflating abhorrence at what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing with hatred for Israel. I have seen no antisemitism or hatred of Israel as an entity on here.
for what its worth one of my good friends did step over that line and I did have strong words with her about it.
Hanchenkuchen
I will commend you for sticking your head above the parapet if that is not a phrase too far 🙂
It's all a bit of balance, really.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways.
...
But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything.
That's all very well and perhaps the perfect ideal, but on the other hand in the real world, we do need to shout about it in order to get anything actually done!
I think both are necessary. Both up to a point, of course.
It all depends what you're shouting, and to whom. If it's at a demonstration outside the Israeli embassy, you're letting the people inside know how you feel, and expressing opposition to the actions of their government. If it's within the echo chamber of an internet forum thread such as this, you're really not achieving anything useful. The direct action of Palestine Action was far more effective at gaining attention than being rude to another person with whom you are otherwise broadly aligned on the internet.
I met some Israeli friends on Saturday, had a little chat with them; they were going to a silent vigil outside Kings Cross station the next day. This is a vigil held regularly by a group of Jewish people, many of them Israeli, to protest the genocide. There are other peaceful groups who I've mentioned elsewhere, who do similar. Their visible presence in a public place does more to help shift the narrative than any screaming on the internet does. This is why I'm saying that such energy can be used more effectively.
That group and other still get abuse form a few passers-by, in spite of being against the genocide. People who are ignorant and incapable of engaging any intelligence. Such people probably don't even understand the point of the protest. Some are just hateful. Which is very sad.
But the key to actually getting anywhere near achieving peace in Palestine, is in applying intelligence, and by that, I mean emotional intelligence.
So, in concrete terms, what have you done to achieve peace in Palestine?
'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'.
Once again you are conflating abhorrence at what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing with hatred for Israel. I have seen no antisemitism or hatred of Israel as an entity on here.
My opinion differs to yours. Just because you cannot see something yourself, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps your own subjectivity clouds your vision? This is why discussion is so important, contrary to what you are saying.
Any decent person can see that the genocide that is taking place is truly horrific, and that those masterminding it are truly evil. But any intelligent person can see that not all humans are evil, in fact most are actually quite nice ultimately. We all want the same things, we all need the same things. We really aren't that different. When people work that out, things are fine.
A few months ago, I went along to a 'Pro Israel' event in central London, to see for myself what it was all about, and to hopefully have some helpful conversations. I did speak to quite a few people, and what I found was a range of sentiments from 'please don't hate all Jews', to 'All Palestinians must die so that Israel can live'. Most people were just fairly ordinary, socially conservative, a bit naive and somewhat ignorant of the world much beyond their own social bubble. Much like most British folk then ime. But some, and I maintain this was a small minority, were utterly hateful scum. One such individual followed me around telling people not to talk to me as I was an 'antisemitic agitator'. He was eventually successful in having me thrown out by security who were for the most part polite, if not imo pretty thick. At one point, police officers intervened as the shouty man was being particularly belligerent and threatening. It's not nice when you participate in order to learn and become better informed, and a small minority of very vocal individuals try to shout you down.
So it was clear that certain people didn't want any form of 'dissent'. It was also clear that many people meekly went along with what the most vociferous demanded. Only one person actually challenged shouty man. But we can see this same pattern of behaviour endemic in our greater society; most people aren't hateful, but the fears and frustrations within them can be manipulated and exploited by a vocal minority. Racism doesn't have to be a conscious act; a lot of such fear lies deep within the subconscious, and comes to the surface at times of hardship and uncertainty. Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some, even if those who have such feelings aren't themselves aware of it. In the racist riots of last summer, many ordinary people were sucked into a whirlwind of anger and hatred, by just a few very loud groups and individuals, not least the likes of Farage and Yaxley Lennon. Whilst it must have been horrific for people from particularly vulnerable minority communities to suffer such a wave of anger towards them, the reality is that most of the time, things are relatively peaceful. And many of those who participated in the violence, would probably have got on with their lives afterwards, possibly questioning the point of it all. I would not condemn all those who took part, as 'racists', merely ignorant and easily led. And I apply the same rationale to many Israelis. People are people, and given the right support and resources, are generally decent. And this is hope we must cling onto if we are to achieve any peace in our world.
I also suspect that most of us understand the roots of this:
Inter-generational trauma
Indoctrination in the Israeli education system and other places ( I have a jewish friend who is completely indoctrinated and sees arabs as subhuman. He has never been to Israel)
A political system that gives excessive power to extremists
You could probably add perfidious Albion to that list. The british effed things up in the middle east for sure
More evidence that Israeli soldiers committing war crimes are simply following orders.
Who would have thought that the "Nuremberg Defence" would still be topical almost 80 years later?
https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-soldier-describes-arbitrary-killing-of-civilians-in-gaza-13393422
"For sure, no terrorists there," he said. "Every commander can choose for himself what he does. So it's kind of like the Wild West. So, some commanders can really decide to do war crimes and bad things and don't face the consequences of that."
Hanchenkuchen
You said "hate Isreal" in reference to folk on here. That is conflating abhorrence at the actions of the government and the IDF with hatred of a nation. You are actually doing what you accuse others of. You are not listening
with that I am out.
Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some, even if those who have such feelings aren't themselves aware of it.
Sorry that cannot go unchallenged. You are accusing folk of being antisemitic for expressing disgust at the actions of the Iseali government and the IDF. Thats a nasty accusation to make and an attack line used by the apologists for the actions of the Israeli government. Just have a think about that.
Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some, even if those who have such feelings aren't themselves aware of it.
Sorry that cannot go unchallenged. You are accusing folk of being antisemitic for expressing disgust at the actions of the Iseali government and the IDF. Thats a nasty accusation to make and an attack line used by the apologists for the actions of the Israeli government. Just have a think about that.
I don't need to 'have a think' about anything. As I said; just because YOU don't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're asserting no antisemitism exists on this thread, which is something you cannot possibly prove. I'm challenging that assertion, is all. Trying to equate me with the Israeli government is a typical attack line used for people who want to pretend antisemitism doesn't exist. As anyone can clearly see, I am no fan of the Israeli government. To suggest otherwise is deeply offensive.
You said "hate Isreal" in reference to folk on here. That is conflating abhorrence at the actions of the government and the IDF with hatred of a nation. You are actually doing what you accuse others of. You are not listening
I am, I'm just not agreeing with you, is all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Trying to shout down others simply for having different perspectives is absolutely in the realm of 'not listening'. Just have a think about that.
Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some
Ah, throw in the utterly worn out "anti-semitism" allegation when Palestine is being discussed. Benjamin Netanyahu uses it on a daily basis against anyone who dares to criticise him.
And what "experience" btw? You only started posting on this thread not much more than a week ago!
Your "experience" of the last one or two weeks? If so it should be fairly easy for you to provide examples of this alleged anti-semitism.
And btw since you are apparently new here, despite registering a year ago and not posting for about the first 12 months, you might not be aware that there's a report button?
The report button is at the top right of a post, I can assure you that the moderators on here will not tolerate anti-semitism or any other form of racism so just hit it next time you see an example of anti-semitism.
You're asserting no antisemitism exists on this thread, which is something you cannot possibly prove. I'm challenging that assertion, is all. Trying to equate me with the Israeli government is a typical attack line used for people who want to pretend antisemitism doesn't exist
Of course he can't. Just as you can't prove that it does, no matter how many times you accuse others of it, albeit in a sly and deniable way. But it doesn't really matter. The ritual accusation of antisemitism has robbed it of all of its meaning and power. You can call me an antisemite all day long, I really don't care.
No one said they saw anti-semitism in any post here 🙄
He just said that in his (life) experience, there's often some anti-semitism, possibly subconscious, behind some of thoughts he's seeing expressed here.
FWIW: a) I don't agree 😉 and b) I also lurked for a long time before ever posting anything here, does that make my opinions invalid for X amount of time? Ernie you're better than this 🙂
Enough with the "just report it" line... it's totally fine to question the attitudes and comments of other posters... and people in wider society isn't it? Don't you? Don't we all?
Criticism of the Israeli government is often greeted with false claims of anti-semitism (especially by the Israeli government). Anti-semitism still is an actual and real problem though. And isn't helped by directing hate indiscriminately at everyone living in, or supporting the continued existence of, the only Jewish state, as if all culpable for the acts of a vile war hungry government.
It's quite telling that two individuals (with whom I probably have a lot in common in terms of attitudes regarding the current genocide), who have posted comments such as :
Given a choice between a dead Palestinian or a dead Israeli Sir Keir Starmer would very clearly prefer a dead Palestinian. I on the other hand would prefer a dead Israeli.
And:
Israelis are rabid dogs
...Seem to want to shout me down so much. I haven't accused anyone of being antisemitic, this is fact. Yet I'm being compared to Benjamin Netanyahu. I've not wished for anyone's death, nor have I dehumanised an entire nation, yet here we are. Interesting.
Be interested to know exactly how all this is helping to bring peace to Palestine.
No one said they saw anti-semitism in any post here
No, just that it's "likely" there is anti-semitism on this thread.
The term "anti-semitism" has now been weaponised so much that now some people believe that just shouting it enough, no need for any actual evidence of anti-semitism.
And the more they use it the more meaningless the term becomes.
But attempting to defend the indefensible isn't easy so stuff like "anti-semitism" and remember the Holocaust has to be wheeled out in the absence of any credible defence.
I haven't accused anyone of being antisemitic, this is fact.
Yes, that is a fact. But what did you mean when you said?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here
I think part of the problem is that social media in general and this topic in particular are SO binary, and social media does not allow for nuance. 🙁 I had a discussion on Facebook with a chap I vaguely know about whether what's happening is genocide. Now, as far as I'm concerned, as adults we should be able to discuss that and, if we can't jointly reach a conclusion, then we should be able to agree to dissagree and go about our seperate ways. Didn't quite happen like that... 🙁
It feels similar in here - I think the voices we're hearing are mostly almost completely aligned, some are completely partisan, some are suggesting there is some nuance around the matter. I have sympathy with both viewpoints. But I don't think this is a discussion either side can "win", and it's unhelpful and divisive to think otherwise. I dunno. 🙁
Given a choice between a dead Palestinian or a dead Israeli Sir Keir Starmer would very clearly prefer a dead Palestinian. I on the other hand would prefer a dead Israeli.
And? Have you got some sort of problem with that?
In the current conflict I fully support Palestine, not Israel. It is Israel which is violating international law, committing war crimes, illegal occupying territory, and committing crimes against humanity
If people are going to have to die in this war I would much rather that it wasn't people on the side that I support, which is exactly the same position as Sir Keir Starmer takes.
And what is the point of you quoting that post of mine, is that suppose to be an example of "anti-semitism"? If so as an expert on Israelis you should be aware that Israeli is not a race, not all Israelis are Jews.
On the other hand pretty much all Palestinians are Arabs so using that logic Sir Keir Starmer is clearly a racist for preferring dead Arabs to dead Israelis.
I think part of the problem is that social media in general and this topic in particular are SO binary, and social media does not allow for nuance. 🙁 I had a discussion on Facebook with a chap I vaguely know about whether what's happening is genocide. Now, as far as I'm concerned, as adults we should be able to discuss that and, if we can't jointly reach a conclusion, then we should be able to agree to dissagree and go about our seperate ways. Didn't quite happen like that... 🙁
It feels similar in here - I think the voices we're hearing are mostly almost completely aligned, some are completely partisan, some are suggesting there is some nuance around the matter. I have sympathy with both viewpoints. But I don't think this is a discussion either side can "win", and it's unhelpful and divisive to think otherwise. I dunno. 🙁
It doesnt have to be about 'sides'. The only side that is justified in taking here is the one that opposes genocide. We're all in agreement with that, from what I can see. We're all essentially on the same 'side'. But as you point out something I've said a few times now, nuance is important. It's no good calling an entire nation 'rabid dogs', or wishing for certain people to die over others, that leads nowhere but more hatred and division. As is usually the case, a small minority of very vocal 'extremists' want to shout down anything that doesn't fit in with their narrow perspective. Such people use a variety of tactics including personal attacks, to deflect away from the inflexibility and narrow-mindedness of their own position. It takes some emotional intelligence to move beyond this, as I said earlier.
I think such discussions and debates can be helpful; tbh it's by coming out of my comfort zone, and not wishing to remain in an echo chamber, that has taught me more about 'Pro-Israeli' attitudes and sentiments than any interaction with people that are on 'my' side. I now have a better understanding of how such minds work, what influences them, how those ideologies are promoted. Many years ago, I worked with various organisation trying to combat racism. And there, I encountered the same shrill extremists on 'our' side, that we see proliferate discussions like this one. People who were totally unwilling to try to understand what drives racism, what are the underlying causes. To them, the BNP etc were just scum, dehumanised to the extent they were never going to have any dialogue with them. What helped us most was actually shutting such individuals out (that was hard work!), and inviting former far-right members to come and give their perspectives. We made a lot of progress and left a legacy that remains to this day. Fighting fire with fire doesn't work; you all just get burnt. But an approach that actually involves empathy and trying to understand, is always more successful.
But as you point out something I've said a few times now, nuance is important. It's no good calling an entire nation 'rabid dogs', or wishing for certain people to die over others, that leads nowhere but more hatred and division.
Yes, nuance “may” be important in situations, as to rabid dogs? - Daniel Levy said the following, I think I may have quoted him way back in the thread
“The US have created in Israel a mad rabid dog it can no longer control.”
Yes, nuance “may” be important in situations, as to rabid dogs? - Daniel Levy said the following, I think I may have quoted him way back in the thread
“The US have created in Israel a mad rabid dog it can no longer control.”
There's a difference between "Israel is a rabid dog" and "Israelis are rabid dogs".
Edit: And yes, I am aware that even when someone says "Israelis are rabid dogs" they don't necessarily literally mean "every single Israeli", but still, even so...
A message from a friend. No doubt a Hamas sympathiser. Nevertheless- maybe you can help
You may remember that back in May I put out an appeal for help on behalf of my friend Eman Tamer. There was a very serendipitous response to that post because someone who read it (my friend Mairtín de Búrca) was asked by a friend of his if he could suggest someone to donate to in Gaza. Mairtin suggested he donate to Eman which the friend then did. The donation was a thousand pounds which has certainly helped Eman a great deal and she has been very grateful.
Now, however, eight weeks on and Eman is struggling again and has asked me to put out another appeal.
I have been communicating with Eman for many months. She studied social work at university before getting married and having two children.
Sadly, her husband was killed in the early days of the genocide. Eman misses him greatly.
Now she is alone with her two young children. She has been displaced several times all over Gaza. She had to walk with her children from place to place. At each destination she had to find or buy sticks and materials to build shelters. All her cooking is on open fire.
When the opportunity came in January, she returned to northern Gaza where she came from and where she is now.
I’m going to share with you some of her messages sent to me over the past few months. She sent more in the past but Meta deleted them along with a couple of her Instagram accounts. This effectively took away her means of asking for support.
“We went back to the north of Gaza, and we cannot open the Internet, because the situation is very difficult and all the houses are destroyed.
My condition is very bad, I'm tired, my children didn’t eat for two days, I can't buy food, please stand by me, I want people who can help my children, please.
You are a writer. Can you create a book for me? Expresses my life, my story and the story of my children? I can tell you my whole story. You can do this in a short way so that it does not require much from you. I want to tell the world about my suffering, but I can't communicate with them. I'm tired. I swear I'm tired. I don't know what to do.
I cry every night about this life that I live. I feel as if my heart will stop. Who will listen to me? I want to send my voice to the world so they can stand with my children and help them.
What we are going through and what we endure is unbearable for anyone. I've been in a state of collapse since my husband died. This isn't easy.
Not only that, but we live among rats and insects, and I also suffer from burns on the fire when I cook food. Sometimes I can't even find food and can't buy what I need. My life is like hell.
I swear I'm tired, not only that I can't have a gallbladder operation (Eman sent me a photo of the doctor’s report) because I don't have the money. Even now, as I am talking to you, I have a stomach ache from gall stones. I am patient with that.
How do I tell you about the rest of my miserable life? There is nothing beautiful in my life.
When I was displaced from my home, I moved to a school in Rafah. After that, the occupation evacuated Rafah, so I went to a tent in Khan Yunis. After that, the place became almost dangerous. I also moved to a tent in the Al-Mazayda area.
My hope for the future is that I will be able to provide for my children’s needs and not deprive them of anything
It was a difficult night to bombard, we don't know when the war will end. I wish it would end I can't take it anymore.
I feel the loss of hope in this life, how difficult it is, I don't see a good day since the beginning of the war.
I swear I'm trying to bear it, but I feel suffocated and tight in my chest. I can't bear what's happening to us. The war has become more difficult than before, and the situation here is catastrophic.
I apologize to myself for not being able to bear it. I swear I'm trying to bear it, but I feel suffocated and tight in my chest. I can't bear what's happening to us. The war has become more difficult than before, and the situation here is catastrophic.
I am tired, I can't sleep, I am in pain from gallstones, life has become so dark for me.
I wish the war would end so that our lives would be stabilized. I am tired, I swear, I am so tired.
If I hadn't lost my husband, life would be better now, regardless of the war. I don't know how I will continue my life without him. How will I bring up my children and help them and compensate them for everything we have lost?
I was living a happy life. My husband and I used to live in a house full of love. He was bringing me gifts and fulfilling all his children's needs. Nothing was missing in our lives.
In war I only think about how to get flour, so that we can eat bread, I swear, I'm ashamed to say this, but I don't know what to do.
I lost a lot of weight. I now weigh 45 kg due to the lack of food. I do not eat because I save bread for my children. Also, my teeth hurt me a lot, but I can't afford to go to the doctor.
My stomach is constantly hurting me. I went to the doctor and did the tests which showed I have a gallbladder problem (Eman showed me a photo of the doctor’s report). I should have an operation but I can't because I can’t afford it. I don't know what to tell you, in short, my life has become like hell.”
If you’re able to help Eman and her children, her Chuffed donation account is linked in the comments. Thank you to my friends who have already donated to Eman, she is very grateful to you.
Here are photos of Eman’s children Farah (4) and Murad (3). When I showed my wife the photo of Farah, she thought it was our own daughter Bee.
https://chuffed.org/project/supportafamilyingaza
Netanyahu, with trump at his side, has just said, without a hint of irony: ‘Gaza should not be a prison.’
He then added ‘Palestinians should have the freedom to leave”
So, Ethnic Cleansing then?
It seems that in 2025, international law and a rules based order is now utterly meaningless
In other news, Dr Crippen nominated Harold Shipman for the Medicine Prize.
It seems that in 2025, international law and a rules based order is now utterly meaningless
But to be fair there are only two countries which don't have to comply with international law , everyone else is expected to.
I have no doubt what should happen to these ****s anymore, jail time will never be served by these genocide enablers so I can only hope for natural justice
https://twitter.com/SecRubio/status/1942998936874054046
Yeah United States and Israel are now firmly in the hands of criminals. That of course is appalling but what is equally appalling, or maybe even more appalling, is how the rest of the world of the world is so unwilling to uphold the rule of law.
Any governments with any sort of moral integrity should be announcing full support for the United Nations Human Rights Council and imposing sanctions on Marco Rubio.
Yeah United States and Israel are now firmly in the hands of criminals. That of course is appalling but what is equally appalling, or maybe even more appalling, is how the rest of the world of the world is so unwilling to uphold the rule of law.
Not only that but busy helping with the enterprise. I saw that in Holland the cctv footage of rioting Israeli thugs has mysteriously disappeared so they cannot be prosecuted. It makes you think!
What I don't get is, seeing that the Israeli Army have been so effective in Iran, how come they have only managed to kill 5% of the Gaza population in this so-called 'Genocide' ?
If they are aiming at Genocide why issue evacuation orders before bombing buildings, surely they should just leave them in the building ?
Hamas's attempt at genocide, which would have been better if they had managed to coordinate the attack with Hezbollah as they were trying to, didn't issue any warnings and seems to have been a lot more effective in terms of people killed in a short time. They also managed to pack a lot more war crimes into a short timeframe as well.
It seems like issueing warnings/evacuation orders is not a smart strategy, I am surprised no one has been fired over it.
I’m
What I don't get is, seeing that the Israeli Army have been so effective in Iran, how come they have only managed to kill 5% of the Gaza population in this so-called 'Genocide' ?
Are you trying to be a ****?,
Are you trying to be a ****?,
no, just trying to question a narrative that appears to be extremely dubious and more like just virtue signalling.
92% of residential properties destroyed yet only 5% (and that is using the higher estimate mentioned on the previous page) of the population killed, and the percentage is a lot lower if you remove the Hamas fighters.
And that percentage would be lower if everyone actually evacuated from an area that had an evacuation notice against it, like they did in Iran, instead of some of them staying behind to be martyred - saw reporter footage only yesterday of casualties in a bombed area where eye witnesses confirmed that they had been evacuation warnings issued. Even if I was determined to stay in my apartment block, I'd probably move out of the area to see if a bomb hit it and then move back afterwards, rather than stay there and ride it out.
Posted by: gravedigger
Are you trying to be a ****?,
no, just trying to question a narrative that appears to be extremely dubious and more like just virtue signalling.
Username checks out
how come they have only managed to kill 5% of the Gaza population in this so-called 'Genocide' ?
I reckon you either don't understand what the term genocide actually means or you are deliberately trying to misinterpret it.
This is the United Nations definition of genocide and the one used under international law :
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. It involves acts like killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
And it is the reason why an international arrest warrant has been issued for Netanyahu. What is currently occurring in Gaza is without doubt a genocide.
And that percentage would be lower if everyone actually evacuated from an area that had an evacuation notice against it, like they did in Iran, instead of some of them staying behind to be martyred - saw reporter footage only yesterday of casualties in a bombed area where eye witnesses confirmed that they had been evacuation warnings issued.
I think Somafunk is on the money here with regards to your comment.
Gaza is not Iran, it is a tiny strip of land with over 2 million people on it, they have nowhere to evacuate to. The orders to evacuate are designed to instill nazi-style terror, the IDF knows full well that there is nowhere safe for them to evacuate to, they have made very certain of that.
Next you will no doubt suggest that it is the fault of starving Palestinians for being shot dead by the IDF for not dispersing, you do after all appear to be regurgitating IDF shite.
With reference to the above United Nations definition of genocide and this point :
imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The Israelis are not bothering with transferring Palestinian children for adoption by other groups, they are just killing them.
What I don't get is, seeing that the Israeli Army have been so effective in Iran, how come they have only managed to kill 5% of the Gaza population in this so-called 'Genocide' ?
If they are aiming at Genocide why issue evacuation orders before bombing buildings, surely they should just leave them in the building ?
Hamas's attempt at genocide, which would have been better if they had managed to coordinate the attack with Hezbollah as they were trying to, didn't issue any warnings and seems to have been a lot more effective in terms of people killed in a short time. They also managed to pack a lot more war crimes into a short timeframe as well.
It seems like issueing warnings/evacuation orders is not a smart strategy, I am surprised no one has been fired over it.
According to dictionary definitions, 'genocide' is defined as killing a large number of a population in order to destroy that community or nation. It doesn't have to be a majority, and there are no defined proportions or percentages that need to be killed in order for it to qualify as genocide. It can also be about forcing people from a land in order to destroy that national identity. What we are seeing most definitely qualifies as genocide. Unless you're part of the fascist regime of Israel or apologists for them. Genocide is all aobut destroying a people, a nation, an identity, and Israel are definitely trying to do that.
Hamas never attempted 'genocide', in spite of what their aims ultimately are. They merely wanted to rape, torture and murder a significant number of Israelis. Hamas are genocidal in their intent, but not through their actions (a matter of resources, quite simply; Hamas' leaders would happily nuke Israel if they could). Israel could not perform the genocide that they are, without US and UK assistance. Therefore, the USA and UK (and other nations) are complicit in genocide. Obviously leaders of those nations don't want to be considered as such, which is why they are so reticent to call it what it is. Doesn't change the fact they are most definitely complicit in genocide, though.
As for the 'warnings'; this is reported in media outlets favourable to Israel, but how often are they made, if they happen at all? And how much time do people actually have, to flee? And we know for a fact that Israeli forces have murdered many thousands of Gazans attempting to flee, or trying to get food aid. Now the relatively (and I use that term cautiously) low number of deaths proportionate to the volume of buildings destroyed, may suggest that Israeli forces are issuing 'warnings', but destruction of a nation's infrastructure, peoples' homes, is still included in the definition of genocide. Of course, we don't actually know the true death toll, it could be higher even than the 'Hamas' figures. Perhaps we will never know.
To talk of Hamas 'packing in a lot more war crimes in a short space of time' does highlight the fact that Hams operatives committed such acts, there is documented evidence of this. The Israeli forces however are much more careful in covering their traces, so we cannot begin to know the full extent of the reality of what they are doing. But we do know it's horrific and extensive. It's not a championship of who can commit more war crimes; any war crimes are horrific and evil. Saying 'oh but Hamas/Israel/IDF' etc is utterly pointless and unhelpful. It's all bad.
What Israel does have to it's 'advantage', is a massive system of what they call 'intelligence'. A large proportion of conscripted service personnel work in 'intelligence'. 'Intelligence' in this context involves gathering front line information, intercepting radio and electronic communications, jamming such communications and helping to create a particular narrrative to feed to the rest of the world. Individual personnel will have little to no idea about what the 'intelligence' they are gathering actually means, less how it may ultimately be used. For eg; it might be a mobile 'phone conversation between a husband and wife, which security forces will then manipulate and selectively edit to try to show that 'terrorist activity' is being planned.This will then be used as justification for bombing a residential area, or a hospital etc. Of course, some of it may be genuine terrorist activity, but I suspect very little indeed. But it's worth knowing how ordinary Israelis are used as pawns in this whole nasty game; I have female relatives who have worked in 'intelligence'; they don't put the girls on the front line generally, but in this case they are like worker bees or ants; the individual is insignificant compared to the whole. As for front line troops; they are often selected from poorer/less advantaged backgrounds, and tend to be less European and more Middle Eastern in ethnic origin. This shows the extent of just how racist Israeli society is, even to its 'own'. The nice white middle class kids are kept well away from the horrors. Add in heavy state censorship and control of media, in the 'only democracy in the Middle East', and you have a population who are largely ignorant of what is actually going on. Hence the support the Israeli government continues to get. Genocide cannot exist without controlling people's minds. It's all about Intelligence.
So what is Israel suppossed to do, back off and leave the rest of the tunnel network in place, and leave Hamas in place and armed so they will rebuild and do exactly the same thing again in a few years, as their track record shows that they will do?
And how come the palastinians that live in Israel, dating from 1948, are OK - if there is a genocide against Palastinians then why aren't they being targetted as well, there are 2.1 million of them, all not living in apartied conditions. It's not going to be a genocide unless they are targetted as well.
Why isn't there anywhere for the Gazans to go, in any other war refugees flee to neighbouring coutries but they can't here as their friendly neighbouring Arabs have bordering walls that are more significant than the ones Israel put up.
Why even do the Gazans need to be moved around - anything to do with Hamas building the tunnel network instead of getting on with the job of governing Gaza?
Perhaps if they built decent temporary accomodation for the Gazans whilst they destroyed the tunnels and flushed Hamas out and told them that they would be employed, and therefore earning, in the rebuilding of Gaza, without the tunnels, perhaps using money siezed from the leaders of Hamas, which is billions (how did they come to have so much money???) then they might see a Hamas free path and help give Hamas up.
Are you trying to be a ****?
Maybe, maybe not. I guess it depends if it just comes naturally.
So what is Israel suppossed to do
Oh I dunno - maybe obey UN resolutions and international law and agree to live in peace with a fully functional Palestinian state, like any reasonable state would do.
So what is Israel suppossed to do, back off and leave the rest of the tunnel network in place, and leave Hamas in place and armed so they will rebuild and do exactly the same thing again in a few years, as their track record shows that they will do?
And how come the palastinians that live in Israel, dating from 1948, are OK - if there is a genocide against Palastinians then why aren't they being targetted as well, there are 2.1 million of them, all not living in apartied conditions. It's not going to be a genocide unless they are targetted as well.
they are being targeted - killed and forced off their land in the west bank and in other places. Its obvious the aim is to get rid of all the Palestinians
Israel might have had a right or even a need to defend itself, this does not include deliberately targeting civilians at food distribution points, deliberately killing all the medical staff, using starvation as a collective punishment etc etc
So what is Israel suppossed to do, back off and leave the rest of the tunnel network in place, and leave Hamas in place and armed so they will rebuild and do exactly the same thing again in a few years, as their track record shows that they will do?
Israel could start by not continuing to try to illegally seize Palestinian land, and murder innocent people including children. Hamas exists because the Israeli state has repeatedly prevented Palestinians from forming any sort of reasonable democratic government, leaving Palestinians with no leadership. This inevitably leads to violent reaction which the Israeli state wants as it can then justify more oppression and murder.
Palestinians living in Israel are not ‘ok’. For one, they really are living in apartheid conditions, as Israeli law actually puts Jews above all others. So gentiles do not have the same rights and privileges as Jews, in Israel. This is fact.
Why should Palestinians go anywhere? Would you demand Israelis be forced form their homes? Gaza is their home, their land, Palestine is their nation. Israel is the aggressor and the invader. Israel needs to withdraw from Gaza completely. It is not their country and they have no right to be there.
If Israel doesn’t murder Palestinians, there is no tunnel network. It’s really quite simple.
Perhaps if Israel just withdraws from Gaza, and removes its illegal settlements in the WestBank, and recognises the Palestinian state, stops murdering innocent people and respects international law, then we won’t be having to have stupid conversations like this one.
Why isn't there anywhere for the Gazans to go, in any other war refugees flee to neighbouring coutries but they can't here as their friendly neighbouring Arabs have bordering walls that are more significant than the ones Israel put up.
Okay I am starting to see the problem here, you obviously don't know anything about the subject nor the history behind it.
There are approximately 15 million Palestinians in the world and the majority of them are actually refugees. Of the over 8 million Palestinian refugees more than half are stateless.
The reason for this state of affairs is that Israel was built on a lie. And that lie was, "a land without a people for a people without a land".
Palestine is slap bang in the middle of the Fertile Crescent, the actual birthplace of human civilization. The idea there was no one living there is patently absurd, people have been living there for at least 12 thousand years.
So Western colonialists and settlers started driving the indigenous people off their land (where have we heard that before?) eighty years ago.
And now we are where we are today......colonial settlers establishing and expanding their settlements throughout the region backed up of course with regular massacres against mostly unarmed people.
The European powers abandoned naked colonialism with settlers and regular massacres in the last century, the United States and Israel still obviously have a passion for it.
How ****ing utterly pathetic
We've been banned from advertising on the London Tube.
How petty can political policing and interference get... After using the tube to advertise loads of times for gigs, records and our movie, all without issue.
The below poster has been rejected because: "it is likely to cause widespread or serious offence to reasonable members of the public on account of the product or service being advertised, the content or design of the advertisement, or by way of implication."
Speak out against genocide and they'll use every single angle they can to silence you.
Join the IDF, murder kids, fly to London and nothing happens - you'll be welcomed and applauded.
https://twitter.com/KNEECAPCEOL/status/1943309572434804757
Meanwhile we have this…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro
Why isn't there anywhere for the Gazans to go, in any other war refugees flee to neighbouring coutries but they can't here as their friendly neighbouring Arabs have bordering walls that are more significant than the ones Israel put up.
Okay I am starting to see the problem here, you obviously don't know anything about the subject nor the history behind it.
Sorry, but if we're talking about understanding history, I must pull you up on this bit:
The reason for this state of affairs is that Israel was built on a lie. And that lie was, "a land without a people for a people without a land".
According to Google, this was a phrase attributed to Christian Evangelists, and was never something any Jewish people ever said. As for it being a 'lie'; all borders and nationalities are based on 'lies', ultimately. If you are trying to suggest Jewish people have no claim to that land, or right to live there, then that becomes extremely contentious and tbh isn't worth getting into, as we can then argue about the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the whole of South America, etc. There is historic evidence that practising Jews lived in that area of the Middle East, thousands of years ago. Whilst I don't personally support the notion of being part of a religious group affording you certain rights and privileges over others, many Jewish people hold that notion as a core part of their cultural identity. Neither you, nor I or anyone else gets to dictate to anyone else about their identity.
Palestine is slap bang in the middle of the Fertile Crescent, the actual birthplace of human civilization. The idea there was no one living there is patently absurd, people have been living there for at least 12 thousand years.
And before any Muslims existed, many of the people living there were Jews.
So Western colonialists and settlers started driving the indigenous people off their land (where have we heard that before?) eighty years ago.
Many of those 'indigenous people' were Jews. Most of those forced from their homeland were Muslims. But it was the British who orchestrated the colonisation.
And now we are where we are today......colonial settlers establishing and expanding their settlements throughout the region backed up of course with regular massacres against mostly unarmed people.
All aided and abetted by those same Western powers who sought to establish a Western controlled stonghold in the region, in order to suppress and subjugate the indigenous peoples and better control the flow of money from the exploitation of natural resources. Israel must be seen in the wider context, as part of modern Western Imperialism, rather than a 'Zionist' project.
The European powers abandoned naked colonialism with settlers and regular massacres in the last century, the United States and Israel still obviously have a passion for it.
The UK has been (largely indirectly) responsible for far more imperialism in the last 80 years than Israel. And is continuing to support it to this day. We're just more subtle about the murders committed in our name.
According to Google, this was a phrase attributed to Christian Evangelists
I am not talking about the "phrase", I am talking about the lie. The lie is that no one was living there, that phrase simply sums it up in a nice catchy slogan.
And before any Muslims existed, many of the people living there were Jews.
And? What on earth has that got to do with anything? Do you think Muslims arrived on an alien spaceship?
The semitic people of the Fertile Crescent have followed a variety of religions through the course of history, including Christianity, Roman paganism following the Great Jewish Revolt, and Islam.
Neither you, nor I or anyone else gets to dictate to anyone else about their identity.
Have you turned on the news lately? Quite a lot of dictating about folks' identity going on, mostly at the end of an Israeli (or is that Jewish, it's so confusing?) gun. Or bomb. Or drone.
According to Google, this was a phrase attributed to Christian Evangelists
I am not talking about the "phrase", I am talking about the lie. The lie is that no one was living there, that phrase simply sums it up in a nice catchy slogan.
But that's got nothing to do with the actual formation of the modern state of Israel. You can use terms like 'lies' pejoratively if you wish, but it doesn't really strengthen your argument any. Nobody alive in modern Israel today is responsible for a phrase attributed to Christian Evangelists over 150 years ago. There has existed a belief for thousands of years, that Jews shall one day return to 'their' homeland. L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim predates the prhase you've decided is the foundation of modern Israel, by quite a bit.
And before any Muslims existed, many of the people living there were Jews.
And? What on earth has that got to do with anything? Do you think Muslims arrived on an alien spaceship?
As you seemed keen to 'educate' another poster on Israel, I thought it only right to include facts you'd chosen to omit, in the interests of historical accuracy.
I thought it only right to include facts you'd chosen to omit, in the interests of historical accuracy.
You thought not everyone might have been aware that there were no Muslims among the semitic people before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad ?
As I previously said Palestine along with the rest of the Fertile Crescent has been inhabited by people for at least 12 thousand years.
The recent arrivals from mostly western countries have attempted to perpetuate the "empty land myth" much loved by colonialists and settlers to justify their land grabs from indigenous people. In the case of Palestine an early exponent of the myth was Mark Twain and the deeply dishonest slogan "a land without a people for a people without a land" was enthusiastically embraced by zionists.
And the slogan is deeply dishonest on multiple levels, eg the idea that an American Jew, for example, can't acquire land or property in the USA and should therefore be entitled to drive a Palestinian family off their land or property in Palestine is patently absurd.
I actually don't know what you're arguing about now. Getting fixated on something someone said over 150 years ago is kind of pointless really. Whatever your personal feelings about the 'validity' of the existence of the State of Israel, that's an insignificant irrelevance, as what is important now is finding a way to stop genocide. Continuing with hateful rhetoric, and suggesting that some are more entitled to something than others, and that some lives are more important in your mind than others is pretty much identical to how the very people you despise, think. Not exactly getting us anywhere, is it?
I actually don't know what you're arguing about now.
LOL! I am not arguing about anything, I am simply pointing out the historical fact that the "empty land myth" has been used to justify grabbing land from the Palestinian people, it's you that appears to be in some sort of arguing mode.
Continuing with hateful rhetoric, and suggesting that some are more entitled to something than others, and that some lives are more important in your mind than others
So it is "hateful rhetoric" to point out that an American from Brooklyn does not have the right to kick a Palestinian family off their land, and I am suggesting that some lives are more important than others? Get a grip.
Btw I really can't get over how the content and style of your posts completely mirrors a previous poster on here, he seemed to be tormented over Gaza by the divided loyalty of being a Muslim married to a Jewish woman with family in Israel, I know that you claim to know quite a few Israelis but do you actually know any Muslims?
So to get this straight, that after the exodus from Egypt, the 'Jews' fled to Canaan -the so called 'promised land',encompassing where they proceeded to murder every man, woman and child living there to claim the land as their own.
Canaan encompasses roughly the territory of present-day Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, and parts of Syria.
The biblical account -
The current Israeli finance minister is a very strong supporter of Greater Israel and passionately argues the case for it.
Edited as fact checking did not back up a claim
I actually don't know what you're arguing about now.
LOL! I am not arguing about anything, I am simply pointing out the historical fact that the "empty land myth" has been used to justify grabbing land from the Palestinian people, it's you that appears to be in some sort of arguing mode.
But what's the point of continuing to spout the same tired old tropes that have been used for many decades now? A quote from a 19th-century Evangelical Christian isn't why the modern state of Israel was formed. Even if you wrongly believe that to be the case. So it's irrelevant to keep saying it.
Continuing with hateful rhetoric, and suggesting that some are more entitled to something than others, and that some lives are more important in your mind than others
So it is "hateful rhetoric" to point out that an American from Brooklyn does not have the right to kick a Palestinian family off their land, and I am suggesting that some lives are more important than others? Get a grip.
Where did I say anyone had the right to do such? I haven't said that at all. YOU, on the other hand, have expressed the sentiment that certain lives are worth more than others. Which to me, is eerily similar to certain extremist groups worldwide. Particularly those you claim to be vehemently opposed to.
Btw I really can't get over how the content and style of your posts completely mirrors a previous poster on here, he seemed to be tormented over Gaza by the divided loyalty of being a Muslim married to a Jewish woman with family in Israel, I know that you claim to know quite a few Israelis but do you actually know any Muslims?
This is now getting into the realms of personal attack, and is really quite bizarre. Resorting to such ad hominems betrays the paucity of your own arguments. My personal life has absolutely nothing to do with you. If you wish to actually discuss the issues in a civil matter, I'm happy to debate with you, but if you're going to just go on the attack (as it's clear you have little in the way of 'defence'), then I shall not be interacting with you.
So to get this straight, that after the exodus from Egypt, the 'Jews' fled to Canaan -the so called 'promised land',encompassing where they proceeded to murder every man, woman and child living there to claim the land as their own.
Canaan encompasses roughly the territory of present-day Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, and parts of Syria.
The biblical account -
"Command to Destroy:The Book of Deuteronomy describes a divine command to utterly destroy the Canaanite inhabitants and their culture to prevent them from corrupting the Israelites with their idolatry"Justification indeed, when you want to steal someone elses land
Again, I think drawing from ancient scripture as the 'reasons' why the current situation exists, is really quite pointless. Whilst some fundamentalists might be guided by such, the majority of Jewish people globally don't think like that. The majority aren't even all that religious really; celebrating Jewish culture is much more to do with identity than it is about ancient beliefs. The current genocide is a result of Western imperialism, and has little to do with the Old Testament. Which is why we need to move away from the smokescreen of religious animosity. Fundamentalists in Israel are being manipulated by those who wish to see us all divided and in fear of one another. Makes us all easier to rule and control. One could argue that Christian Evangelism has more to do with it all than Judaism.
As for 'stealing someone else's land'; I'm not seeing the weekly demonstrations opposing the White European colonisation of North America, or Australia, New Zealand etc. I'm not seeing the outcries of demands to give those lands back to indigenous people. No; the illegal land-grab by Israeli settlers is utterly abhorrent and wrong, and yes, vast swathes of land should rightly be given back to the Palestinian people. I think we're all pretty much in agreement here. As we sit here typing away furiously on devices containing components made from raw materials extracted from lands where the indigenous people often have little to no say over such exploitation. Human history is rife with such colonialism; why is it some are only interested in Israel's? Ah....
But what's the point of continuing to spout the same tired old tropes that have been used for many decades now? A quote from a 19th-century Evangelical Christian isn't why the modern state of Israel was formed. Even if you wrongly believe that to be the case. So it's irrelevant to keep saying it.
Maybe you should have a word with renowned Israeli historian Ilan Pappe who, like me, believes that reminding people of the colonial-settler "empty land myth" is very relevant today, he discussed it in his book which is currently in print.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Myths-About-Israel-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1804297046
In this groundbreaking book, the outspoken and radical Israeli historian Ilan Pappe examines the most contested ideas concerning the origins and identity of the contemporary state of Israel. This has been updated with a new afterword on the 2023 invasion of Gaza.
1. Palestine was an Empty Land
2. The Jews were a people with out a land
3. Zionism is Judaism
4. Zionism is not Colonialism
5. The Palestinians Voluntarily Left their Homelands in 1948
6. The June 1967 War was a war of 'No Choice'
7. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East
8. The Myths about the Oslo Agreement
9. The Lies we tell about Gaza
10. The two state solution is the only way forward
Look at the two top myths according to the Israeli historian.