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I think when it's other Jews protesting, they term it blood liable instead.
Which refers to a deeply anti-semitic conspiracy theory.
I'd hate to be thought of as an antisemite, but I'm definitely antizionist.
ive heard it said that most zionists are Evangelical Christians. Those mad americans with their relgious furver need the "holy land" to be populated by the "right" people, as some for of weird sacrafice for the end of the times, that they all bonk on about.
i think the insane attitidue to religion in the states should take a lot of the blame for propping them up.
Just look at the New York mayoral elections. All proudly stating their first task if they got elected would be to go to israel.
The NY mayor.
WTF.
shame on the BBC and the Eavis's for their statements about Bob Vylan being antisemitic.
Who is pulling their strings?
What 'legality'? Israel is a legitimate state recognised in international law, as is Palestine. Do you wish to deny Israelis their right to statehood? To deny them the same rights you'd afford others, based on where they are born or what their passport says? Again that would be racism.
The legallity of armed resistance against a hostile occupying force. The only thing I want to deny Israelis is the right to wage war on a civilian population. Oh, and the right to try and discredit any critical voice as bigotry. I'm so over that shit.
I regret Bob's choice of words, but I fully endorse the sentiment behind it - they didn't say it with any intent of inciting violence, in direct contrast to, say, Lucy Connelly who did. If Vera Lynn had sung "... don't know where, don't know when - death death to Himmler's SS!" in a live concert in 1940, would it have been seen as a genuine incitement to violence? Or bigotry? No.
I have a brother working in the NHS. Would I be worried for his safety if I heard people calling for "death to the NHS"? No, I'd think they were talking about the organisation, not the individual people
Well exactly, so it's a feat of gymnastics to pretend that
death to the IDF" means death, pretty obviously.
I think Humpty Dumpty sums up your position:
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
I'm not ready to call for anyone to be killed.
Not even in Ukraine? I would much rather no one died in a totally unnecessary bloody war in Ukraine but despite that I am fairly relaxed about the idea of anyone chanting "death to the Russian armed forces"
The Palestinian people have as much right to defend themselves from foreign aggression as the Ukrainian people.
If the people bombing children, starving them, and setting them alight in field hospitals, were killed, I would strongly welcome it.
And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves imo.
it reduces you to the level of anyone else that thinks genocide is a good solution here.
Conflating taking on an armed force carrying out an holocaust of their own with genocide is not helpful.
As is the eye for an eye approach as that just creates more martyrs/reactionaries to continue the bloodshed.
I've been consistent with Ukraine, we need to call for Russia to withdraw... I've never called for Russians to be killed. I'm sure I'd feel quite different if I was in Ukraine (or Gaza), but calling for the mass killing of people from the safety of the UK feels wrong to me.
feat of gymnastics
There's a lot of gymnastics in this thread. I daresay a Hamas member waving his AK47 in the air and screaming "death to Israel!" is just showing his support for a deconstruction of the Israeli state and a peaceful return of the Palestinian people to their lands.
(This post is just about meaning of words and mental gymnastics. I do not mean to directly compare Hamas/IDF/Bob Vylan/anyone else or the situation itself.)
If the people bombing children, starving them, and setting them alight in field hospitals, were killed, I would strongly welcome it.
And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves imo.
Conflating taking on an armed force carrying out an holocaust of their own with genocide is not helpful.
For clarity, I was arguing against the "kill them all, every last one of them, without exception" approach (which is IMO what "death to IDF" implies in context), not the right to fight against them.
calling for the mass killing of people from the safety of the UK feels wrong to me.
Who's called for "mass killing" ? Kill enough IDF terrorists/soldiers (take your pick) so that they are forced to negotiate.
Right now Gaza is a turkey shoot for the IDF, they have absolutely no incentive to stop slaughtering Palestinisns.
Jewish is now being conflated with Israel. Every Jewish person I know finds themselves being grilled about Israel etc, if they dare let it be known they are Jewish.
Deliberately done by the government of Isreal and its apologists. Despite why they say critism of isreals actions and its government are not antisemitic. the shout of "death to the IDF" is NOT a cry to kill jews, its a cry to end a racist terrorist organisation.
When you deliberately conflate critism of the isreali government and its army with antisemitism this is what you get. You reap what you sew
Criticism of Isreal is not antisemitism, calling for an end to the genocide is not antisemitism.
I daresay a Hamas member waving his AK47 in the air and screaming "death to Israel!" is just showing his support for a deconstruction of the Israeli state and a peaceful return of the Palestinian people to their lands.
I missed that. Was it on at the same time as Charli XCX ?
"kill them all, every last one of them, without exception" approach (which is IMO what "death to IDF" implies in context),
You're getting more and more extreme !! Pretty soon you'll be sounding like Netanyahu !!
Anyway putting aside what words should be used to describe the horrors being perpetuated in Gaza and the West Bank by the IDF let's remind ourselves what these horrors actually involve
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5kk1w00xyo
Over 500 Palestinians have been killed while seeking aid since the GHF started operating in late May.
"Orphaned children and caregivers are among the dead, with children harmed in over half of the attacks on civilians at these sites."
According to a report by Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Friday, unnamed Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers said they were ordered to shoot at unarmed civilians near aid distribution sites to drive them away or disperse them.
Imagine the UK government's response had this been happening in occupied Ukraine and it was the Russian army shooting dead starving children seeking aid to "disperse them".
This is crowd control nazi style, and the UK Labour government occasionally tuts in a vaguely disapproving manner whilst maintaining military, diplomatic, and political support, for the genocidal regime.
You're getting more and more extreme !! Pretty soon you'll be sounding like Netanyahu !!
Get a grip of yourself man. Ossify has been perfectly clear he is anti genocide. He has an issue with the contents of a dubious act on a show.
Neither you or he know what was meant by the artist in question. And nothing good come from personal attacks on a thread like this.
Netanyahu and his lackeys like Mirvis have, quite subtly, done what the likes of Goebbels did.
By constantly framing any opposition to Israeli crimes as anti-semitism, they've achieved two goals. On one hand they've shut down more moderate critics or those who must show supposed balance. But this doesn't get them very far. Most of us can hear a report of food queues being fired upon and not fall victim to any attempt to frame it as self defence.
But, more importantly, what they have also done is drag moderate Jews and Israelis into their orbit because in Europe and the US etc those people are now being asked about (and probably criticised for) the actions of a government and country they may never have been to. As someone posted above - now think about an Indonesian or Bangladeshi Muslim who faced similar lumping in with Al Qaeda or the Taliban.
The nazis made their people complicit in their crimes. Most international criminal governments or organisations do.
By choosing to make any criticism of Israel antisemitism, the likes of Mirvis are politicising people on behalf of Netanyahu.
What a plonker this Mirvis fella is - he's right it's a time of national shame. He just hasn't quite worked out what nation. In his world this post is Antisemenitic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70rrld1nlpo
What a plonker this Mirvis fella is
Not do much a plonker as someone who knows what side his bread is buttered on and who provides it.
56,500 dead Palestinians (133,600) wounded. Versus 1,200 Israelis and 200 hostages.
Every single one of those is a tragedy but you can't ignore the relative quantities.
Self defence my arse.
Yes. We are somewhat ahead of you PrinceJohn.
I hadn't connected the dots & didn't know who he was until the article above gave context.
Neither you or he know what was meant by the artist in question.
That's a funny thing to say, because ossify has been quite clear that he does know.
That's a funny thing to say, because ossify has been quite clear that he does know.
If you look up a few posts, you will find:
Maybe he didn't mean death. Should've thought it through a bit better then, before leading a public chant.
and
(which is IMO what "death to IDF" implies in context)
I thought it was quite clear what I meant.
When you deliberately conflate critism of the isreali government and its army with antisemitism this is what you get. You reap what you sew
But according to hanchenkuchen's post on the RAF thread, the IDF is Jewish, so criticising the IDF is antisemitic. Does that all make sense now? No - not to me either.
p.s. "sow", not "sew" FFS
We are somewhat ahead of you PrinceJohn.
Not everyone it would appear. Your description of Bob Vylan as a "dubious act" seems to echo the sentiments expressed by the plonker Mirvis.
As someone else noted......the slogan's shock lies not in its content, but in its audacity. It dares to break decorum in the name of justice. It dares to say what many feel but are too afraid to articulate.
When the media and zionist supporters treat "Free Free Palestine" as both a threat and as an example of anti-semitism then "Death Death to the IDF" is always going to be treated as a molotov cocktail and cause an extreme reaction.
Neither you or he know what was meant by the artist in question.
I am fairly confident about what was meant....... the defeat of the IDF and the triumph of Palestine. What else could it have meant?
"Viva Viva Palestina", which is a common chant at demos, expresses exactly the same sentiments, ie the defeat of the IDF and the triumph of Palestine but in a far less hard hitting way.
Had Bob gone onto the stage and shouted Viva Via Palestina it would have been mostly ignored.
Viva Viva Palestina can be treated as background noise, Death Death to the IDF is in your face.
Right now the IDF is slaughtering innocent civilians, it's not the time to worry about decorum
calling for "death to the IDF" means death, pretty obviously.
[...]
Maybe he didn't mean death
Forgive me - at this point I have no clue what you actually mean. (No - please don't explain again.)
Not everyone it would appear. Your description of Bob Vylan as a "dubious act" seems to echo the sentiments expressed by the plonker Mirvis
Dubious act as in relatively unknown.
As ot happens i quite them. I have no major issue with them, i don't think them calling something out is any ways a problem. My personal option is they didn't mean it how Ossify took it. But it was open to interpretation and life experience is likely to have a significant impact on how to take it. And I don't think raising a chant about it was particularly ****ing clever and it will, intentionally or otherwise fuel some extra hate.
Be angry, be furious scream and shout about it. I am and Ossify is happy using the term genocide. I just don't think Ossify deserves what was thrown at him, comparing him to a right wing nut job in charge of a regime intent on genocide and crying antisemitism when they are called out.
Whats wrong with that?
Let me get this right then…
By the present logic, anyone who criticises any Israeli citizen, the Israeli government or the IDF for anything at all is basically Goebbels?
Is that where we are now?
It certainly seems that way
Everyone criticises the Israeli government… impossible not to (unless you’re looking the other way).
Let me get this right then…
By the present logic, anyone who criticises any Israeli citizen, the Israeli government or the IDF for anything at all is basically Goebbels?
Is that where we are now?
It certainly seems that way
Um. You might want to read the reference to goebbels again it certainly was not directed at those speaking oit against Israel
The reference to Goebbels was mine.
I used it in the sense of Goebbels and the nazis making ordinary German citizens complicit in the crimes of the regime.
"Do you want total war?" Etc.
Mirvis is doing a similar job - by making any criticism of the IDF or Israeli government "antisemitism" he is dragging in Jewish people and Israeli citizens generally. When British jews are then, perhaps, taken to task by their friends or acquaintances it could make them immediately defensive and, to an extent, co-opted.
I most certainly would not want, for example, any criticism of the UK government for going into Iraq in 2003 characterised as anti-British. Because of the position that implicitly puts me in.
What Netanyahu is doing is disgusting, disgraceful and criminal. Arseholes like Mirvis legitimising it or seeking to silence criticism is also disgusting.
Mirvis was a regular contributor to R4 Thought For The Day when I used to commute for work. I thought he was just another fairly moderate, decent (if a little socially conservative) religious figure. But he has shown his true colours a number of times since 7th October.
You might want to read the reference to goebbels again it certainly was not directed at those speaking oit against Israel
I wasn’t actually referring to the previous reference to Goebbels. I was just commenting on the fact that anyone who says a word against Israel is labelled as antisemitic and a ‘Jew hater’. And we all know what’s implied by that, don’t we?
What is it when the actual fascists accuse everyone who speaks out against their genocide of being Nazi’s, with that word left as implied rather than spoken, there just by association?
The Israeli far right have weaponised the holocaust for decades to shut down any criticism of their genocidal fascism
Now their ultra-extremist views are now mainstream and they are in power. Now where have we seen that before? Hmmmmmmm
I used it in the sense of Goebbels and the nazis making ordinary German citizens complicit in the crimes of the regime.
There is a fundamental difference though imo. In Israel the crimes against Palestinians appears to be more people led than the crimes committed by the Nazis.
Sure there was well established hatred of Jews which the Nazis exploited and built on but the Holocaust didn't start until 1933 and the first extermination camp started operating in 1941, four years before the end.
In contrast although zionists have been killing Palestinians for 80 years Israel started off as a left-wing project, for the first 29 years of its existence Israel had nothing but Labour prime ministers.
However every new generation has become more extreme than the previous one and today we have such a far-right government in Israel that some ministers make Nigel Farage look like a cuddly left-wing liberal.
The extremism of the current government reflects the extremism of today's Israeli society, which was probably not quite the case with regards to the extremism of the Nazis.
The prophecy of Yeshayahu Leibowitz, a Jewish Israeli intellectual ...
“The national pride that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism.”
Somehow the actual brutal pictures of the aftermath of an israeli bombing or missile strike, where to kill one target, they target the entire block with other families living in them needs to be played on prime time media
The actual aftermath, for example child's room, there are his/her destroyed remains in the corner.
Or pulling out whole families from the collapsed buildings. As brutal as being there, nothing hidden from the eye.
That I think would turn the tide and put enough pressure on our politicians, and the American public too to pressurize who really holds the strings on israelis ability to commit these crimes against humanity.
Somehow the actual brutal pictures of the aftermath of an israeli bombing or missile strike, where to kill one target, they target the entire block with other families living in them needs to be played on prime time media
Well there’s a reason why the IDF have deliberately killed all the journalists.
The one's which they haven't managed to stop entering Gaza
These extraordinary eyewitness accounts are not brought to our screens by experienced international war correspondents - they are barred from entering Gaza - but by two British medics whose mission was to save lives not to report on the horrors of war.
Israel knows full well that they can't have the world prying as they commit genocide, nor would Western governments want that to happen (there are obvious exceptions such as Ireland and Spain)
In the history of modern warfare, the presence of journalists on the battlefield has been essential in holding the combatants to account and ensuring that war crimes and atrocities are uncovered and prevented.
But Israel's confidence in the integrity of its wartime conduct is not matched by a willingness to allow international journalists into Gaza to witness what is going on there for themselves.
So it is left to non-journalists and Palestinian journalists
And these Palestinian journalists have paid a heavy price for their work; according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 185 of them have been killed during the war and 86 imprisoned.
And of course the judicial system of the quasi fascist state which pretends to work within a legal framework falls into line.
So far, that legal action has been unsuccessful and last month the court again postponed a hearing in the case without reason or setting a new date.
Obviously if the courts ever ruled that international journalists should be permitted to enter Gaza the IDF would simply murder them, as they have Palestinian journalists.
Somehow the actual brutal pictures of the aftermath of an israeli bombing or missile strike, where to kill one target, they target the entire block with other families living in them needs to be played on prime time media
Something I've often wondered. Preserving the dignity of the victims of war is paramount, but I do honestly believe there's some power to people being shown the reality of it at peak viewing time on the news/in the media.
My experiences have certainly swayed my view of those who are quick to leap to tough talk, usually because they're a fanny and have never seen this stuff up close, hideously ill-informed, tragically naive, or a sociopath. Pick your flavour.
There's a reason 'war is hell' and why more people need an insight into the ****ing horrible reality of it, it can't hurt can it.
In the history of modern warfare, the presence of journalists on the battlefield has been essential in holding the combatants to account and ensuring that war crimes and atrocities are uncovered and prevented.
This. It's an extra layer of scrutiny that gives those not involved and line into what's going on.
On tonight @ 10pm on Channel 4
This isn't really watchable. I think it is probably too much for most people to stomach, especially the images of children.
Harrowing viewing; much like a news report from Auschwitz. Unfortunately it confirms what we know - that Israelis are rabid dogs. Regrettably we are also complicit as our government gives support to the psychopaths.
Yes a tough watch and a certain amount of leading questions going on but if nothing else a stark reminder of exactly what Palestinians are living through right now.
Guess I’m now officially a terrorist, £30 donation to Palestine Action and a screenshot of my donation sent to keir.starmer.mp@parliament.uk, obviously I included my name and address in the email so he knows where to send the police to question/arrest me for supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
**** him, **** the IDF, **** the Israeli government for supporting this, they need proscribed as a rogue nation.
Watched it. My discomfort minuscule and irrelevant to their actual experience.
Read a bit of the BBC article about the new law and Palestine action. Well done arresting a bloke on a mobility scooter ffs.
It also accuses the BBC of being “crippled by the fear of being perceived as critical of the Israeli government” and claims the “inconsistent manner in which guidance is applied draws into focus the role of Gibb, on the BBC Board and BBC’s editorial standards committee” as “we are concerned that an individual with close ties to the Jewish Chronicle … has a say in the BBC’s editorial decisions in any capacity, including the decision not to broadcast Gaza: Medics Under Fire”.
And this has to be the icing on the cake :
Miriam Margolyes, Alexei Sayle and Mike Leigh among signatories to letter criticising Jewish Chronicle ties
It's got to hurt when prominent Jews criticise the BBC for not broadcasting the truth about Israel's genocide in Occupied Palestine.
Although it will obviously be ignored.
I'm not going to watch it. I can't if it involves kids suffering. I still remember feeling nauseous when Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain spent a couple of minutes on the Jamie Bulger case. I just can't.
I know full well what the IDF are, who they are targeting and what the results of live ordinance hitting flesh and bone are. Or collapsing buildings onto kids. Or simply denying them food.
Guess I’m now officially a terrorist, £30 donation to Palestine Action and a screenshot of my donation sent to keir.starmer.mp@parliament.uk, obviously I included my name and address in the email so he knows where to send the police to question/arrest me for supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
* him, * the IDF, **** the Israeli government for supporting this, they need proscribed as a rogue nation.
This is where I'm at too. This is what I'm going to do as well.
I still can't quite believe this shit is going on in the 2020s and it is being supplied and excused by nations like the UK. We pontificate about the brutality of civil wars in Africa, for example. But when Israel does it, we roll over and have our (yellow) belly tickled.
I think in a way one of the most chilling bits was the interview with the Israeli soldier?medic? who said “there doesn’t need to be a cover up; nobody cares what we do to the Gazans”.
And of course that applies to our government as well (and the EU etc etc). They simply don’t give a shit about Gaza.
I'm not going to watch it. I can't if it involves kids suffering.
It does involve scenes of children suffering which I frankly had look away when they came on. I did manage to sit through it all although I initially thought I wouldn't be able to. But I did spend a lot of the time looking away from the telly and at my phone instead. The scenes showing children suffering are actually a very small part of the whole documentary.
Like you I did wonder what the point was of me watching it as I am fully aware that the IDF is a brutal terrorist organisation, I don't need convincing. But it did change my perceptions slightly - it reinforced my understanding that the dehumanisation of Palestinians and the deep hatred directed at them is very deeply ingrained in Israeli society and as the programme mentions predates the Oct 7 Hamas attack.
And as a consequence the programme also very much reinforced my belief that a two-state solution is impossible. A single secular democratic Palestine has to be the only solution, although I honestly don't know how it would cope with the level of anti-arab hatred which exists among many zionists. I guess many would simply leave to return to Europe and the United States.
Has Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis been on BBC Breakfast yet to tell us how unsafe 'British Jews' (each and every one of them, without exception, as clearly the Board of Deputies believe the UK Jewish community speaks as one single entity) are feeling after the broadcast of this clearly antisemitic documentary?
“ Those who wish to protest or express support for Palestine have always been able to and can continue to do so.”
Meanwhile in real life ....
Four people were arrested, including “a man who blocked the gates of Downing Street with his mobility scooter”, at a protest in Westminster on Wednesday evening, the Metropolitan police said.
Meanwhile in real life ....
Almost as if you can express support for Palestine in a multitude of ways without breaking the law. Of course some will choose to break the law as they feel it might be a more effective way to make their point.
And as a consequence the programme also very much reinforced my belief that a two-state solution is impossible.
Sadly many liberals in Isreal came to the same conclusion after attacks from Hamas and others. More and more people now want a single state, and support those who fight towards that end. These hardened attitudes mean decades more of killings, and existing in peace side by side looks like an impossible dream all around. Depressing times.
Almost as if you can express support for Palestine in a multitude of ways without breaking the law.
Almost as if anything you do will be found to break the law by those who want to silence you.
More and more people now want a single state, and support those who fight towards that end. These hardened attitudes mean decades more of killings, and existing in peace side by side looks like an impossible dream all around.
No the killing will eventually stop because the zionist project is not viable in the long term.
No country can exist in a permanent state of war, which is precisely why Israel is experiencing by far its greatest crisis in its entire history.
Israel will never ever have peace, if that wasn't 100% certain before the current genocide it certainly is now.
As you rightly point out even many of the so-called "liberals" in Israel don't want peace now, I they won't get it.
They can't defeat Hamas and they can't stop their growing international isolation, eventually they will have to throw in the towel as the previous apartheid regime did.
That feeds into the "existential war" argument that hard right Israeli politicians use to justify their unbalanced and disproportionate offensive war to their public. Awful stuff.
Has Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis been on BBC Breakfast yet to tell us how unsafe 'British Jews' (each and every one of them, without exception, as clearly the Board of Deputies believe the UK Jewish community speaks as one single entity) are feeling after the broadcast of this clearly antisemitic documentary?
two-bit gobshite preacher, he can get in the ****ing sea.
Am I the only one that watches the likes of the slug Danny Danon (Israeli UN ambassador) spew his bilious lies whilst dreaming of dropping him into what is left of Gaza?
Harrowing viewing; much like a news report from Auschwitz. Unfortunately it confirms what we know - that Israelis are rabid dogs. Regrettably we are also complicit as our government gives support to the psychopaths.
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
That feeds into the "existential war" argument
Absolutely what Israel is facing is the greatest existential threat in its entire history.
Although I don't think that the far-right/ultra-zionists in Israel have fully grasped that reality, they are still dreaming of a Greater Israel. Apparently God will save them
The only way that peace will ever come to the Middle East is when the zionist experiment ceases. In the 21st century you cannot have a colonial settler project which involves grabbing land off indigenous people and expect a peaceful existence.
If not everyone is yet convinced of that they will eventually be.
All Israelis?
Did you actually watch the documentary? I suspect not.
DrJ's comment is with regards to the documentary which used Israeli witness accounts, and as one IDF soldier said “there doesn’t need to be a cover up; nobody cares what we do to the Gazans”.
No one is wearing any veils on this thread.
All Israelis
According to polls, a significant majority support the current depravity.
While you’re here - the ritual accusation of antisemitism is meaningless these days. Maybe try actually engaging with the issue.
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
Pretending that criticising Israel's behaviour is the equivalent of criticising all Israelis is as disingenuous as pulling up someone for calling Israel a Jewish state when it is obvious that not all Israelis are Jewish.
Still, I guess that making wild and unfounded allegations of anti-semitism is the only intellectual defence that zionists have these days.
Has Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis been on BBC Breakfast yet to tell us how unsafe 'British Jews' (each and every one of them, without exception, as clearly the Board of Deputies believe the UK Jewish community speaks as one single entity) are feeling after the broadcast of this clearly antisemitic documentary?
I think 10, 20 years ago, the BoD was seen as a reasonably liberal organisation that did represent British Jewry. Likewise the CAA, CST, New Isreal Fund and several others. Sadly, many of these organisations have become hijacked by very right wing people who do wish to use them to promote their own agendae, and this has seen a decline in their popularity and legitimacy. The stunts that Gideon Falter tried pulling at a pro-Palestine demo last year, for example, indicated the fact that such once respected organisations are now little more than shills for the Israeli government. Unfortunately, such groups had significant influence over the Labour right, as we are seeing now with Starmer's total weakness to stand up against Israeli state aggression. This is compounded by the perennial problem of the fractious nature of the 'Left', with to many small organisations always disagreeing and bickering over who is the most righteous. So there's been no united voice to stand up to such right wing influence. The Jewish Labour Movement, once a real socialist organisation, is now a very right-wing one. The Labour right have effectively forced out any left-wing Jewish activists, even expelling some for 'antisemitism', which is utterly absurd. So there is now no longer a viable left wing Jewish voice in the Labour movement; JVL are a tiny, insipid and ageing group who are noting more than a fringe organisation with no political clout at all.
The hope lies in some of the younger, decent humanitarian groups such as Standing Together, Na'amod, Yachad, Jewish Socialists group and a few others. The JLM work hard to actively exclude such groups for many discussions within Labour, about antisemitism, Palestine etc, as they don't follow the right-wing pro-Israeli state narrative. Any such group that dares criticise theIsraeli state, finds themselves ostracised and marginalised. But then there's also attacks from the so-called 'Left'; Standing Together have been 'cancelled' by the BDS movement, as apparently they 'normalise Zionism'. Absolute nonsense and quite the opposite. Organisations such as the BDS and PSC are just as bad as the JLM etc, as they will not listen to anyone who dares question their vehemently anti-Israel narrative. Most Jewish organisations won't have anything to do with the PSC and BDS as those organisations are infected with virulent antisemites from top to bottom. So this leaves no coherent left-wing united force against the Labour right. As with so many aspects of life, the true thinkers are often a tiny minority. But there is a new, growing strain of dissenters who are turning away from the PSC and BDS, and seeking less antagonistic ways of addressing the issues. For a peace movement to succeed, it has to be about peace, and it has to include a spectrum of voices, and not be exclusive.
All Israelis?
The impression that i get, is that the culture and the, i cant think of the word im thinking of, lets say "narrative" that has been propogated within Israel for the past 50-60 years, has been one of dehumanising and "othering" the Palestinian people. Compulsary national service wont hurt that process either.
Using the words "brain washing" pushes you into conspiracy theory nutjob territory, but i have no doubt the Israeli people honestly believe they have the moral highground, because thats how theyve been brought up over the past few generations. Is that their fault that they dont adhere to our idea of tolerance?
from the videos of the israeli troops, they do seem to be enjoying themselves.
And to blame this all on the 7th October events is absurd. When you use the might and funding of the American war machine, to bully a people into the dirt, what more do the have other than guerilla warfare and "dirty" tactics? Do you expect the Palestinians to run out of tanks and missiles (if they ever had any) and then thrown down their small arms and admit defeat? Did they learn nothing from Vietnam?
Lifted from al jazeera,
At least 33 aid seekers are among 73 Palestinians killed in Gaza since dawn, medical sources have told Al Jazeera, with witnesses describing “horror scenes” after “unprovoked gunfire” at the controversial Israeli and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) aid sites.
- More than 300 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces in the last 48 hours
Meanwhile Israeli settlers have just stormed Al Aqsa mosque in the West Bank, and I figure everyone (sic) has been following the villages in the West Bank that were recently burned then destroyed by the Israeli forces with their caterpillar supplied equipment as the area is now deemed to be an army range
And finally the leading antisemite/or hero to to the rest of us who are not genocidal ****s Francesca Albanese has published a new report
‘For some genocide is profitable’, says Francesca Albanese
“There have been people and organisations that have profited from the violence, the killing, the maiming, the destruction in Gaza and other parts of the occupied Palestinian territory”, the UN’s special rapporteur tells reporters in Geneva.
“In the past 20 months…the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange soared by 213 percent, amassing over $220 bns in market gains, including [a] $76.8 bn in the past month alone; so clearly, for some genocide is profitable”, Albanese stated.
She said her latest report “exposes a system, something that is so structural and so widespread and so systemic that there is no possibility to fix it”, adding that if the corporate sector had observed due diligence, it “would have disengaged completely and totally from its entanglement with the Israeli economy”.
She added that if Palestine were a “crime scene”, it would have “the fingerprints of all of us through what we purchase…the banks where we put our money, the investments we make”.
UN expert accuses Israel of weapon-testing in Gaza amid 85,000-tonne explosive devastation
As we just reported, UN expert Francesca Albanese has presented a report to the Human Rights Council. Here are key takeaways from her speech:
- Arms companies have turned near-record profits by equipping Israel with cutting-edge weaponry to unleash 85,000 tonnes of explosives – six times the power of Hiroshima – to destroy Gaza.
- The report also pointed to gains on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange since October 2023, describing a stark contrast: “One people enriched, one people erased.”
- Accusing Israel of using the war to “test new weapons, customized surveillance, lethal drones, [and] radar systems”, Albanese warned that Palestine’s defencelessness had made it “an ideal laboratory for the Israeli military-industrial complex”.
- She named 48 corporate actors, including arms manufacturers, banks, tech companies, energy giants, and academic institutions, alleging that they are directly linked to a broader “economy of occupation, sustaining the Israeli state’s actions”.
- “Weapons and data systems brutalize and surveil Palestinians,” she said. “Colonies spread – financed by banks and insurers, powered by fossil fuels, and normalized by tourism platforms, supermarket chains, and academic institutions.”
- Under international law, she said, even a minimal connection to this system carries clear responsibility. “There is a prima facie responsibility on every state and corporate entity to completely abstain from or end their relationships with this economy of occupation.”
- In a direct appeal to states, Albanese called for bold steps. “Member states must impose a full arms embargo on Israel, suspend all trade agreements and investment relations, and enforce accountability, ensuring that corporate entities face legal consequences for their involvement in serious violations of international law.”
Well I'm sure nothing will change while Ben can use it as an excuse to avoid trial...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/30/benjamin-netanyahu-corruption-trial-delayed-ntwnfb
The impression that i get, is that the culture and the, i cant think of the word im thinking of, lets say "narrative" that has been propogated within Israel for the past 50-60 years, has been one of dehumanising and "othering" the Palestinian people. Compulsary national service wont hurt that process either.
When Israeli historian Ilan Pappe pointed out that the issue of supporting Israel had caused intergenerational conflict between Jews living in the West, with many young Jews now strongly supporting Palestine in stark contrast with older generations, he was asked why this wasn't so much the case in Israel.
This was his reply :
They didn’t get the same education as young Jews in America. They got an education from a very indoctrinated country. And that’s the key. They were produced, if you want, engineered by the Israeli education system.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at the Israeli curricula, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extreme and dangerous to themselves and to others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.
This is the product of a very indoctrinated society from the cradle to the grave.
You need to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope that this would move them.
They can see dead Palestinian babies and say ‘Good, very good’. Dehumanisation is part of the Israeli DNA and it’s very hard to confront just by giving them more information.
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
The problem with polls, is that they don't tell the whole story. We know this all too well. For sure; expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza is a popular ideal, as is the complete destruction of Isreal and all Jews across the Middle East. And I'm sure many people here would love to see the total erasure of Israel from the maps. But polls don't tell what people would actually do; they can be very different. And it depends what you poll on; for example recent polls within Israel suggest a growing majority of Israelis want an end to the 'war'. So what are we to believe?
The fact is that cherry-picking data and information to base your own argument on is often very flawed, and ignores other information that may tell a different story. As I said earlier; nuance is important. Do a majority of Israelis really want to murder all Palestinians? When we boil it al down, people aren't very different. They all share the same common needs and desires after all. 'Israelis' are no different to Brits, or Americans, or Chinese people, or indeed anyone else, ultimately. We're all people. What divides us is politics, religion and economics. These things are what are being manipulated right now, to keep us all divided and easier to rule. And we can see this borne out very much in Israel; people are constantly being told they are under 'threat', billions of dollars are spent to perpetuate conflict, to maintain that threat, and religion and culture are manipulated to coerce people into thinking and acting in articular ways. The reality of daily life in Israel is that there is an increasing economic crisis, caused very much by a massive influx of people to Israel (hence the illegal settlements etc), and a polarisation of people on socioeconomic lines. The truth is that the biggest problem facing Israelis is actually other Israelis. Left to its own devices, the country would tear itself apart. Whilst there are the affluent secular liberal middle classes in Tel Aviv, so there are the near-impoverished farmers and workers elsewhere. Access to opportunities and education are very limited inIsrael. We see a similar pattern here in the UK: socioeconomic neglect and decline has led to a rise in right-wing ideologies amongst ordinary people. And Brexit. But what's also similar? How people are manipulated by those with a vested interest in perpetuating social division. So to blame all people of crimes that are being masterminded by a tiny elite, is to blame Humanity. And really, we're not so bad if we all get a fair slice each, are we?
So this is why I challenge attitudes such as blaming 'Israel' as though it's one homogenous entity with no nuance; as though it's some unfaceted monolith. Let's look within, to see where are own humanity lies, let's not get carried away and sucked into the whole spiral of hatred. Yes, of course we must abhor the genocide, but we mustn't abhor humanity. The only way forward for humanity is peace. Hatred does not lead to peace.
All Israelis
According to polls, a significant majority support the current depravity.
While you’re here - the ritual accusation of antisemitism is meaningless these days. Maybe try actually engaging with the issue.
Sorry, this is the post I meant to respond to. My statement still stands.
Not sure what you mean by 'the ritual accusation of antisemitism is meaningless these days'; is that aimed at me? As I said; the veil is slipping.
As for 'engaging with the issue'; one major issue is blind hatred of Israel and all Israelis. Which you're demonstrating repeatedly. I get your anger, but do you think you're any more angry than anyone else here? Do you believe yourself to be more righteous because of the way in which you express that anger? Do you really think your outbursts are at all progressive or helpful?
We all need to take a step back and examine what we do with such anger. Just making angry outbursts online achieves nothing. It doesn't make you more righteous, or cool, or attractive to others, or anything else. It just makes you angry. Perhaps expressing that anger is cathartic, but it doesn't help in any discussion. Far better to stop, take a moment to try to understand. It's easy to get angry; it's far harder to understand. But you aren't going to solve anything if you don't understand it. Olly's post above helps to give some insight into why so many Israelis think the way they do. And as I've said, it's easy for people to be manipulated. Spouting anger and vitriol online is one sign of that kind of manipulation. That hatred is whipped up somewhere, don't let it inside you. Hatred clouds your judgment and rationality. And God knows we need some rationality right now.
[... meaningless blether deleted ...]
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
[... meaningless blether deleted ...]
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
I know. We all know. And that's happening whilst you don't understand something then angrily try to belittle someone else on the internet. Tell me how that's working out for you and humanity?
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
What are you on about with “revisioning your own statement” ?
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
What are you on about with “revisioning your own statement” ?
Apologies. As I explained my next post, I inadvertently replied to the wrong post. Yours was not the post I was responding to.
Wow Hanchenkuchen, I haven't really bothered reading your rather long posts but then I read this:
We all need to take a step back and examine what we do with such anger. Just making angry outbursts online achieves nothing. It doesn't make you more righteous, or cool, or attractive to others, or anything else. It just makes you angry. Perhaps expressing that anger is cathartic, but it doesn't help in any discussion. Far better to stop, take a moment to try to understand. It's easy to get angry; it's far harder to understand. But you aren't going to solve anything if you don't understand it. Olly's post above helps to give some insight into why so many Israelis think the way they do. And as I've said, it's easy for people to be manipulated. Spouting anger and vitriol online is one sign of that kind of manipulation. That hatred is whipped up somewhere, don't let it inside you. Hatred clouds your judgment and rationality. And God knows we need some rationality right now.
Blimey, you sound so much like a former STWer that it is proper spooky!
Obviously you can't be him but it is really weird 😕
What's also weird is how you registered a year ago but only seem to have activated the account in about the last week. That's unusual!
Its not hatred. Its disgust at the abhorrent actions of the isreali government, the IDF and the continual conflating of critism of israel government with antisemitism.
There has not been a single antisemetic remark on this thread that I have seen. The Israeli government and the IDF have been murdering civilians and children and committing war crimes with impunity
The Israeli government and the IDF have been murdering civilians and children and committing war crimes with impunity
Yes yes, but there’s an economic crisis in Israel and the poor dears are misunderstood. I mean, if you’re having a tough time making ends meet, it’s only natural to shove an iron bar up someone’s bum, or break their teeth with a toilet brush, or pull their beard out with pliers. Come on - we’ve all been there.
It looks like final objective is to totally erase the existence of Palestinians to ensure no further claim to the land. There will be no negotiation nor can anyone help the Palestinians now. The Palestinians are coming to an end in this century. Even if the current generation survives, there will have no future generation or very little left. Their young ones are now malnourished and in sickness due to starvation etc, their poor health will not be enough to maintain future generation. The systematic approach has surely achieved its objective. Let the oppressors celebrate, let them rejoice in their actions, let them enjoy the moment (they shall enjoy for one century) but the time will come when they will be banished for the 3rd and final time with no return forever. When that time comes, one century later, there will be no hiding place, no rocks unturned. The world is watching now but they are weak. RIP Palestinians.
What a complete load of bollox dogchewkw!
What a complete load of bollox dogchewkw!
If the superpower is supporting the oppressors, who else dare to help the Palestinians? Nobody.
The superpower controls the world economy, the have the most advanced weapons and they set the rules.
How do you (referring to other countries) oppose the oppressors? By arms? You have none. By economy? You are incapable.
The oppressors do not negotiate nor can they negotiate.
The superpower controls the world economy, the have the most advanced weapons and they set the rules.
That will explain why the Taliban is now governing in Afghanistan ......the superpower which controls the world economy, has the most advanced weapons, and sets the rules, obviously decided that they should.