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Why isn't there a net of radio sensors around the perimeter that can triangulate a source?
I'm sure Qinetic were developing something.
Are there no counter measures available?
I’m guessing an emp would affect planes also. The desire to place air to air missiles around Gatwick would probably make a few people nervous.
Not an easy resolution i’m guessing and I suspect this is the work of a few idiots who thought they’d have a bit of a laugh.
Shotgun Shirley?
Just heard Gatwick boss on the radio, the drone is still over the airfield!since 9 last night!
Bizarre.
With FPV drone I guess it's easy to hide. You could just be at a window of a house or in a private garden within a couple of km of airport.
Meanwhile two poor police officers are driving round trying to spot the pilot.
Odd is been so long, almost like is deliberate.
Maybe your drone owner was using the firework show as a test...
Aye, but he would have stuffed it in a tree already...
I believe it’s 2 large commercial drones. It’s going to be chaos all day I’m afraid, even when the runway reopens. Once aircraft and crews get out of position/off schedule it takes days to recover.
It wouldn’t be unreasonable for the culprits to pay for all the costs of closing the airport.
Might stop future idiots.
countermeasures?
It’ll be someone who doesn’t want their in-laws coming for Christmas
How were these drones spotted, given it was dark? Were they spotted taking off, or in the air? Not saying it wasn't drones, but what exactly was seen and by who?
The must have made multiple flights, a single set of batteries wouldn't last anything like long enough for all this.
COmmercial drones supported with multiple battery packs, for nearly 12 hours? Thats smacks of deliberation. I’ll be environmentalists or terrorists I’m guessing as opposed to kids.
How were these drones spotted, given it was dark?
They have really strong lights, to help pilots guide them if FPV goes down.
It sounds like sightings are from pilots and or airport staff.
Just heard Gatwick boss on the radio, the drone is still over the airfield!since 9 last night!
Bizarre.
Not quite. He said drones have been spotted since 9am last night, not that has been constantly there.
It'll be self perpetuating now of course - one random passenger 'thinks' they see something will be enough to close it down again.
If the commercial drone reports above are true that changes everything - I had assumed it was a couple of looser kids bored at the beginnings of the xmas holidays.
Looks like no early go for me later. I'll be playing catch all day. I'll find out who reported them this afternoon.
Don't forget Gatwick recently announced that it would start using it's emergency runway for scheduled take offs and landings. Not a popular move with some people in the area.
Are there no counter measures available?
The company my wife works for are developing countermeasures for drones..it's not Qinetiq 😉
haven't they got trained eagles to take them down? or have they left because Brexit?
Not saying it wasn’t drones, but what exactly was seen and by who?
My thoughts, seema all a bit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles
or have they left because Brexit?
STW experts said it was cruel, so they stopped it and the eagles* have retired from active duty.
*the real ones, not the 70s dad rock band
I was wondering if there was a deportation flight scheduled and this was deliberate disruption to stop it taking off....
Pure speculation, but I reckon a bunch of locals wanted a good night's sleep so came up with a plan to stop flights. Unlike Heathrow, Gatwick doesn't have the same night time restrictions.
Maybe they just got bored of flying drugs and iphones into prisons and just fancied a change of scene?
it’s not Qinetiq
ah, but not so far away though eh?
Way to give every dick with a drone an idea for causing mayhem.
Surely a helicopter and sniper is the answer now?
Way to give every dick with a drone an idea for causing mayhem.
The prison time might put the rest off.
COmmercial drones supported with multiple battery packs, for nearly 12 hours? Thats smacks of deliberation. I’ll be environmentalists or terrorists I’m guessing as opposed to kids.
Could be Father Christmas whose not had his flight plan agreed, might not be able to drop all those pressies off.
Way to give every dick with a drone an idea for causing mayhem.
Certainly not us with PfCOs who do as they are told with insurance, ops manuals and loss of business at stake.
The Drones have to land. Most battery systems last a matter of minutes. It's not hard to see where the Drone lands - with another Drone ...
CAA are massively under-resourced with this sort of thing.
Surely a helicopter and sniper is the answer now?
Apparently the stray bullets might kill a few collateral snowflakes.
Pwn them with bombers, I say.
ah, but not so far away though eh?
The company is based in Wales..
The Drones have to land. Most battery systems last a matter of minutes. It’s not hard to see where the Drone lands – with another Drone …
you are assuming that its the same drone every time.
you are assuming that its the same drone every time.
Irrelevant.
They could follow any one of the drones.
All them people waiting on flights could be put to good use scouring the surrounding countryside for the idiot and his drone, whoever finds him first gets 2 free punches.
Counter measure?
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https://www.maxim.com/news/japan-drone-nets-2015-12
They could follow any one of the drones.
20 drones placed around the perimeter, timed to take off at half hour intervals and fly a pre-programmed route across the runways. A few others timed to take off a couple of hours after the last ones to increase uncertainty.
No one there, no tracing a drone 'back to base'. Lots of individual drones taking off from different locations - tops of buildings, roofs of containers etc etc - can't be seen from the ground (and not at all at night).
Do that at every major UK airport in succession and you've disrupted all flights for a week.
total cost, a few thousand pounds.
Considering their incredible potential to be used in an offensive capacity, mightn't they be treated like firearms, and the owners require licensing, and the devices themselves, registration?
This must be the start of the busiest time of year / weekend for airports with folk going home for xmas. For the price of a couple of drones you could shut down an entire airport for 14 hours and counting... It's really quite startling!
It doesn't have the sound of some kids mucking about - more of an organised antagonism.
Yeah, who needs yellow vests!
Linked to plans to open emergency runway for operational use?
Mind you if we think this is bad wait 'til March 30th next year...
Mind you if we think this is bad wait ’til March 30th next year…
Oh bugger, I'm flying to Geneva that day. No wonder those fights were cheap.....
Irrelevant.
They could follow any one of the drones.
again, you are assuming that who-ever is doing it is trying to retrieve the drones.
I have to admit my initial thoughts were is it windy enough to lift plastic bags...
Still, I hadn't thought of the fact they can follow pre-programmed routes. There might not even be a pilot there any more.
Considering their incredible potential to be used in an offensive capacity, mightn’t they be treated like firearms, and the owners require licensing, and the devices themselves, registration?
Bit of an over-reaction. If you can't see why, I challenge you to a duel. You can have the drone, I'll have the gun.
While I'm at it, it would be nice to find the culprits and charge them for the costs incurred, but I doubt many individuals have that sort of money.
You can have the drone, I’ll have the gun.
I can tell you which of those two is more likely to bring down a 747 that's just gone past the point they can't abort a take off if we're both stood outside the perimeter fence of an airport.
The genie really is out of the bottle with drones. By the time those in charge realised the potential mayhem they can cause, the opportunity for meaningful regulation had passed.
Considering their incredible potential to be used in an offensive capacity, mightn’t they be treated like firearms, and the owners require licensing, and the devices themselves, registration?
Could the same be applied to RC planes, helicopters or even balloons?
Could the same be applied to RC planes, helicopters or even balloons?
Or those RC model cars. Or yachts! Time for a big crack-down. It'll make buying a tube of evo-stik like child's play.
yes, sharkbait, but planes and 'copters require a fair amount of skill to fly and until very recently offered no autonomous flight options (plus they cost a fair amount).
Considering their incredible potential to be used in an offensive capacity, mightn’t they be treated like firearms, and the owners require licensing, and the devices themselves, registration?
Drones are registered, the pilots too. There is a whole bucket of Law governing Drones.
Ask rone, he’s a drone pilot.
Trouble is, as with any Law, it’s only applicable if the perpetrator is caught.
My first thoughts when I heard about this was
“ probably deliberate, and surprising it took so long to happen “
Bear in mind decent size machines can be picked up for less than the cost of decent light and controlled from a car 400 - 500 metres away, so it’s very difficult for the authorities to find the culprit (s) if they don’t try to retrieve the machine ........
But it will be right headache to prevent copy catting now 😟
It is quite interesting to look on Flight Radar 24, set the time to 2000 yesterday evening, increase the playback speed to 300x and watch how the flights are lining up for approach/departure at Gatwick and are suddenly diverted and the airspace cleared.
Then pick any other day in the past and compare the business of the London/SE airspace to today.
I can tell you which of those two is more likely to bring down a 747 that’s just gone past the point they can’t abort a take off if we’re both stood outside the perimeter fence of an airport.
I think you'd have a hard time with anything you could legally get hold of bringing down anything with 3 spare engines (guns and drones).
Of course either could be used to shut down an airport (if you were a total lunatic).
My wife and kids flights from Montpelier to gatwick canceled.
And not able to change bookings till Sunday
COTS drones have been used by IS in Syria to attack Russian aircraft while on the ground, small charge of explosives and aim for the vertical stabilizer.
Wouldn't be hard to hit a massive target like an airliner. Scary times.
It was a question, but I completely agree re helicopters, although planes are not as difficult and are cheaper than a drone (£150 full kit ready to fly). Plus, theoretically you could simply take off, point it in the right direction and walk away!
Undecided about whether drones should be licenced..... maybe.
I think you’d have a hard time with anything you could legally get hold of bringing down anything with 3 spare engines
Genuinely - I'm surprised we've not yet to drones used as a swarm weapon to bring down a commercial aircraft.
Fly enough of them across the flight path of an aircraft and it'll be like running into a flock of albatross - and that's without considering what payload they might have in terms of additional bits of hard metal.
I think you’d have a hard time with anything you could legally get hold of bringing down anything with 3 spare engines (guns and drones).
You don't go for the engines, you go for the control surfaces.
Exactly. We know that an engine can survive a frozen chicken attack but I wonder if a drone with an aluminium/steel bar strapped underneath would destroy an engine if it was sucked in?that’s without considering what payload they might have in terms of additional bits of hard metal
That's a very scary thought.
Easier to go for the engines though - and a destroyed engine certainly has the potential to bring a plane down when it's taking off.You don’t go for the engines, you go for the control surfaces.
Scary times.
Not really
I wonder if a drone with an aluminium/steel bar strapped underneath would destroy an engine if it was sucked in?
That’s a very scary thought.
They also test against a rotor blade failure, which would have far higher energy than random objects going in. So not really that scary either
Maybe, but they have drills for engine failure, so you'd need to have a bloody damn good knowledge of when is the exact vulnerable moment to cause maximum damage to cause a crash. Either way, a COTS drone with a small IED would cause havoc, but there's just too many available now, especially on the second-hand market. They're not hard to weaponise and can be bought in a pretty untraceable manner.
I've seen a 12v combi drill go through MD11 GECF6-80C2D1F engine, it wasn't pretty. Fortunately most of it went up the bypass, and not into the compressor/turbine/combustor as it was left in the bellmouth at start up, but I can't really see that happening if an engine was either at approach or descent into land.
False alarm..
https://newsthump.com/2018/12/20/drones-over-gatwick-found-to-be-new-ryanair-super-economy-flights/
Anyone read The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson? All sounding quite familiar now.
One of my colleagues has been at Gatwick since 5:30 this morning waiting for her flight home for Christmas. But at least the other one who normally can't get home for Christmas (fog, snow, industrial action) is going via Stanstead.
Swarm might work, but again a single drone hitting an engine would be hard work, hitting a control surface? They're at the back you know.
There is a great deal of redundancy in the control surfaces of modern airliners, so this would cause disruption if successful rather than bringing down the airliner.
I won't speculate on what could be carried by a drone to bring down an airliner, of course it would be possible but piloting a drone into any part of an airliner travelling at 200mph+ in the first place would be quite tricky.
You lot worry me over how creative and knowledgeable you on creating a terror attack....!
Really? Didn't realise they were at the back, I thought they were in the nose, controlled by a steering wheel.
Like I said, been used to good effect elsewhere by people with a similar ideology. Even disruption is a good tool, that Airport is now haemorrhaging money. Who knows, could just be some dickhead hobbyist.
We have to wargame this at work, it's one of the possible threats of both conventional and non-conventional warfare now. I work within rotary aviation, where they are a bloody pain. But we obviously share ground and airspace with large fixed-wing aircraft.
I just read a bit of William Gibson, sci-fi and then think about stuff 🙂
Dog pod grid, anyone?
I’ve seen a 12v combi drill go through MD11 GECF6-80C2D1F engine, it wasn’t pretty.
Nor, I imagine, was what the boss said to the culprit when he/she was identified(!)
European Air Traffic control says situation 'very fluid' but estimates 1600 as soonest time for re-opening following today's drone incidents.
Blimey - that's nearly 24 hours.
Massively effective if it was deliberate.
Genuinely – I’m surprised we’ve not yet to drones used as a swarm weapon to bring down a commercial aircraft.
Fly enough of them across the flight path of an aircraft and it’ll be like running into a flock of albatross – and that’s without considering what payload they might have in terms of additional bits of hard metal.
Well that exactly how surface to air and air to air missiles work. They don't aim to hit an aircraft, they explode in close proximity and the shrapnel causes the damage that brings the aircraft down, so in a way the shrapnel is acting like a drone swarm.
Easier to go for the engines though – and a destroyed engine certainly has the potential to bring a plane down when it’s taking off.
Well not one engine, they're designed to safely take off with an engine out...two engines then you're in trouble.
Exactly. We know that an engine can survive a frozen chicken attack but I wonder if a drone with an aluminium/steel bar strapped underneath would destroy an engine if it was sucked in?
That’s a very scary thought.
Well not frozen chickens...they're thawed...a frozen chicken would ruin an engine if ingested. Large engines are designed to withstand the ingestion of multiple and simultaneous 12lb Canada Geese (unfrozen) and the engine has to be able to maintain max continuous thrust for a minimum of 5 mins after ingestion to simulate a safe go around and landing in the event of the ingestion happening at take-off. Obviously that is ingestion of soft body debris, hard body debris is much more challenging and the risk there is that it causes a fan blade to fracture which would cause an instant engine shut down. Again, the engine is designed to withstand such an event safely, but if it happened to both engines, then you're in trouble.
BREAKING: There has been another drone sighting near Gatwick Airport in the last hour, says Gatwick chief operating officer Chris Woodrooffe.
I wonder how many false sightings they're getting now?
Just adding to the earlier speculation as to the possible motivation behind this, that Jada Nazi Britain First woman was arrested (on an outstanding warrant) at Gatwick yesterday...