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Edit - I was unaware he has tweeted for people not to vote for him.
He's asked that people don't vote for him in that;
https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/789794096521048064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
jambalaya - Member
BBC Sports presenter getting involved in politics.You say it like it's a bad thing.
It is to him.
I'd quite like some of the gutter 'journalists' to get involved in sport. Richard Littlejohn, 22 yards of turf, a cricket bat, a cricket ball and me. I'm sure I'd be able to rekindle some of the fire of my youth.
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/gary-lineker-the-sun-national-television-awards_uk_580b5945e4b056572d82c73f ]I've just voted for Gary :-)[/url]
To wander off-topic a little bit, but is anyone concerned about the way politics seems to be going at the moment? Brexit, racist/sexist nutter possibly becoming US president etc. At least the people of the 1930s had the excuse that they hadn't seen it all happen before. The way our generation is heading we really will be the most globally stupid of all.
Yep, very. It didn't start with the gas chambers, it started with people normalising hate and racism.
To wander off-topic a little bit, but is anyone concerned about the way politics seems to be going at the moment? Brexit, racist/sexist nutter possibly becoming US president etc. At least the people of the 1930s had the excuse that they hadn't seen it all happen before. The way our generation is heading we really will be the most globally stupid of all.
The generation of the 30s had "seen it all happen before" too, in colonial Africa and in numerous other examples of crass cruelty and stupidity that have always been a feature of human society.
A large minority of people are really, really stupid. They lack compassion, they are frightened of change, and of difference, and are suspicious of anyone who is less stupid than them.
They reject evidence, and nuanced argument, in favour of broad, simple ideas like "Nashnulty" and "Sovvrunty", although they've never really given any thought to what those things really mean. Because they don't want to. Because that's complicated. And these people don't do "complicated".
In times of war, having a bunch of cruel, stupid, easy-manipulated people is very useful. They'll fight our enemies, really, really hard, spurred on by simple ideas like "Oi lav mah caaantry."
But in times of peace, these people are just blockers. Blockers to progress and compassion and to creating more civilised societies.
I think I'm in love with hebdencyclist!
That's the single best enunciation of what I term "The Shithead Tendency". The tendency that allows government ministers to be applauded in some quarters for claiming "we've had enough of experts". A tendency that mistrusts intellect out of jealousy and nothing else.
A tendency that mistrusts intellect out of jealousy and nothing else.
The stupid are not jealous of the clever. They resent them. The stupid resent those who challenge, with evidence and fact, their simple "feelings" about how they think the world works.
The stupid haven't "had enough of experts" when those experts have built them smartphones, 50 inch HD televisions and nuclear weapons to defend their precious borders. But suggest to them that their simplistic nationalism is childish and irrational, and that being in the EU is a good idea for many reasons, or that being compassionate to refugees will impose a tiny cost to the country compared to wealthy tax-dodgers, ropey PFI contracts, useless vanity infrastructure projects, corrupt and inefficient defence contracts, or shoring up the losses of reckless private companies, and suddenly they've "had enough" of you.
Spot on Hebdencyclist. I couldn't agree more. Just been round a family do where a lot of opinions spouted were recycled straight from the Heil / Scum / Express. I sat quietly and left as soon as possible. No point arguing with some folk.
A public figure being shouted down, harassed and having his job threatened for having an opinion can be described using only one word, fascism.
It's not as if he even said anything controversial, it just happened to be in opposition to the increasingly pervasive hatred in Britain.
Don't hate Gary, hate fascists, they deserve it.
The stupid are not jealous of the clever. They resent them. The stupid resent those who challenge, with evidence and fact, their simple "feelings" about how they think the world works.
Hear, hear. You must follow a lot of threads 😉
No point arguing with some folk.
Quite.
Another classic from the whole Brexit debacle was a short conversation in our office.
Brexiter: "Well, if it was going to be such a disaster, why didn't anyone try to convince me?"
Non-Brexiter: "They did, it was in that booklet that we all got through the door".
Brexiter: "Oh, I'm not going to read [i]that[/i]".
Non-Brexiter: <Head hits desk>
I suppose I should be glad it didn't end with abuse or the threat of violence or actual violence, what with the standard MO of the shithead being to lose their temper when backed into an intellectual cul de sac.
The problem is that we have reached a point where the proportion of the population who are willfully stupid and regard stupidity as synonymous with integrity is significant. Combine this with a downturn in global economic conditions and we are in a dangerous place. IQ tests as a pre-requisite for voting anyone?
You should stop looking at these people as Adults, and view them as Children whose growth in intelligence stopped at around about ten years old.
You will actually make more sense of them that way.
Unfortunately, scum like Trump, Gove, Johnson, Murdoch and those to the right of Theresa May etc, know how to speak to these Children, with simplistic post truth politics.
Once, education and knowledge were things to be cherished and valued but seems know that the stupid wear their ignorance as a badge of honour - it's great to be ignorant and knowledge and education are to be despised and that their opinions based on their ignorance are somehow equally valid. The stupid believe they are participating in a democracy instead of being exploited by the likes of the extreme right (or left), but that's the first step on the road to a very dark place indeed - Hitler was 'democratically' elected after all. The end of history was thought to be the liberal democracy but perhaps its something much nastier.
Perhaps the stupid will be rushing to the likes of Kelvin Mackenzie when they're writhing in agony from some form on cancer rather than an oncologist!
Unfortunately, scum like Trump, Gove, Johnson, Murdoch and those to the right of Theresa May etc, know how to speak to these Children, with simplistic post truth politics.
Child abusers - that sums it up well.
It's ignorance, not stupidity.
And people don't like being told. So keeping face is more important than doing what they now realise is right (re. Brexit).
Relevant article on the beeb website :
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160105-the-man-who-studies-the-spread-of-ignorance
It doesn't mention it in the article but David Dunning is co-creator of STW's favourite, the Dunning-Kruger effect.
A public figure being shouted down, harassed and having his job threatened for having an opinion can be described using only one word, fascism.
But I'm sure it's not the same principle in this case, after all a tweet from a personal account.......
But I'm sure it's not the same principle in this case, after all a tweet from a personal account.......
Political censorship, looks like fascism to me.
Hebden cyclist. Nail hit on the head.
The atmosphere in this country has nosedived so dramatically over the last few months because those people now running the country (Boris as foreign secretary.... seriously? FFS!) thought that it was handy to give the nod to racists, that their brain-dead bigoted opinions were now ok, because it was a means to an end. The end being their personal ambitions.
So we are where we are. Where, to all intents and purposes, a really, really nasty form of extreme right-wing nationalism, utterly devoid of compassion or empathy, and seeking scapegoats (the 'Other') to be blamed for their own failings, is now government policy.
Sound familiar?
I shudder to think where these people are taking us. Because I know it's nowhere I want to go
Same old arguments. With Brexit the UK will move to be like every other country in the world outside of the EU. Are they all racist Nd ignorant ? Or is it more likely that they know something ?
Austria just has a Presidential election that was a tie between the Greens and Nationalists. Marine LePenn and FN are the single largest party by voter in France.
'
The EU is broken, irretrievably so. Recognising that makes you neither racist nor stupid
@binners we have by far the largest international aid budget of any European Nation. Inward looking ? Ignorant ? Racist ?
And given the speed with which these nasty xenophobic morons are erasing everything Dave did - well the namby pamby liberal stuff - and setting us on the polar opposite course, how long do you think that will last?
You Brexiteers really do live in a parallel universe to the rest of us, don't you. I think we now need to start viewing the 23rd of June for what it is. This countries 'Year Zero' moment.
If you're happy cheerleading that, fine. I find it deeply deeply worrying.
Ignorant?
Insular?
Racist?
All the above, and a lot worse. You people disgust me
Gary Lineker has gone up in my estimation hugely. Not for his original tweet, which as far as I can see was simple human compassion. But for his responses and the way this has highlighted the way the press operates.
@binners we have by far the largest international aid budget of any European Nation. Inward looking ? Ignorant ? Racist ?
Self-serving? Jingoistic?
Jamba, this isn't a thread about brexit (although apparently everything is now), it's a thread about a public figure expressing an opinion and being shouted down by fascists and their media.
If you don't want brexit supporters to be associated with racists, don't try to use a thread about racists to justify brexit.
Austria just has a Presidential election that was a tie between the Greens and Nationalists. Marine LePenn and FN are the single largest party by voter in France.
That's great. Have you read the thread title?
jambalaya - Member
@binners we have by far the largest international aid budget of any European Nation. Inward looking ? Ignorant ? Racist ?
POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Increased numbers of attacks reported to police where prejudice towards non-whites/non-UK born seems to be the motivation.
Racist? I think so.
The EU is broken, irretrievably so. Recognising that makes you neither racist nor stupid
Regardless of anyone's views on whether being in the EU is bad or good, the issue that's caused the toxic atmosphere in the UK is how Brexit was packaged. A large part of the rhetoric around it was about taking back control from johnny foreigner and stopping these bloody immigrants from coming in. Which has resulted in a lot of people who probably kept their racist views to themselves before suddenly feeling like they're the majority and can now express them freely. I'm sure there would have been some idiots who would have attacked Lineker for a tweet like that pre-Brexit, but it's appalling that a national 'newspaper'* feels the need to attack him for expressing compassion towards refugees so as to appeal to their ignorant and racist audience.
*sh*te rag
The EU is broken, irretrievably so.
...and the alternative is all working out marvellously.
You can vote for Lineker at the National TV awards (sponsored by the Sun 🙂 ).
http://www.nationaltvawards.com/
He's in the last category, there's a few to plough through.
Brexit was just the pus-filled abscess that was actually visible. The Brexit camp massaged and cajoled it in order to get what they wanted. Some stupidly thought they were just using the inherent nastiness of a lot of people as a means to an end and that they could re-cork the bottle at the end. Others were using the Brexit vote as the means - the end being a far right wing government. Either way, it preyed upon the worst aspects of our national psyche, and won.
The Lineker thing would not have been approached in the same way before the toxic Brexit event. The likes of the Sun are now testing their new-found cockiness.
About ten years ago, Andrew Marr's excellent Making Of Modern Britain put it forward that the reason we had never gone the way of Germany or Italy was that we had an ability as a society to take a step back and see uniform-obsessed, posturing tosspots like Oswald Moseley for what they were. Nowadays, I'm not so sure. Post-truth politics is a very dangerous thing because it is not really understood. You can't argue against these people with reason as this brands you as 'an intellectual' or 'an expert' to be derided whilst the 'men of action' make things happen. If this sounds familiar, it should.
Just voted for Lineker on the national TV awards as sponsored by The Sun. Felt a momentary satisfaction.
The EU is broken, irretrievably so.
Could you not try to deal in facts and analysis, rather than vague, emotive Daily Express headlines like this?
Furthermore, could you try not to cherrypick fragments of stories that seem to fit your agenda whilst ignoring, y'know, "reality"?
And the reality is that the EU is not "broken", whatever that pub-bore expression actually means.
Furthermore, the objective facts are 1. that the UK economy has been, and will continue to be, hurt by the mere prospect of Brexit. 2. That there has been a sharp uptick in hate crimes since the referendum, as every racist and **** feels empowered to 'ave a go at foreigners in the street. 3. That public discourse, particularly around immigration, has coarsened since the referendum, to the point where we're actually having a national debate about whether to check the teeth of refugee children, lest (shock, horror) a handful of 19 or 20 year olds should make it over to the White Cliffs of Dover from the insanitary shithole in which they've been living. I expect you're in favour of the Toothchecker General, though, aren't you?
Could you not try to deal in facts and analysis, rather than vague, emotive Daily Express headlines like this?
Don't make that mistake hebdencyclist. If he were to go into more detail it could label him as an 'expert' to be hoist by his own petard.
It does beautifully demonstrate the difficulty in dealing with post-truth politics.
uniform-obsessed, posturing tosspots like Oswald Moseley for what they were. Nowadays, I'm not so sure.
A Saville Row suit is every bit as much a uniform as anything along the lines designed by Hugo Boss in the 1930's
Back to Lineker then...
What exactly is it he said that warrants such criticism? Can anyone on this increasingly tedious thread please give me one valid reason why what he said deserves such criticism so as to put his job under threat? Preferably something not related to how amazing/awful brexit is.
The school bully saw it as a chance for a win win by courting the newly liberated racists while also having a pop at the BBC.
Happily, in the midst of all this nasty, right wing triumphalism, it appears they massively misjudged the public mood.
I've found it quite refreshing that more moderate, compassionate voices, who've been cowed of late, have seen this as an opportunity to speak up in support. Hopefully this will be something that keeps going, as a counter to what is becoming our increasingly toxic public mood
What exactly is it he said that warrants such criticism? Can anyone on this increasingly tedious thread please give me one valid reason why what he said deserves such criticism so as to put his job under threat?
I believe he said that economic migrants who falsely claim refugee status should be shipped back home on the first plane and he couldn't give a toss whether they were children or not. As you'll well understand, this resulted in calls from Guardian columnists and Left wing MP's for his immediate suspension from the BBC and for him to be sacked from match of the day for being xenophobic, one of the greatest crimes known to humanity, up there with racism and sexism.
It was of course immediately realised by the Sun and political right that this was some form of trap, so they leaped to his defence and challenged that nobody should have their job threatened for having the temerity to speak out on issues of public policy, and that a belief in freedom of speech meant that we must be tolerant of opposing views, even if we found them offensive or upsetting.
I think I've got that the right way round.
I believe he said that economic migrants who falsely claim refugee status should be shipped back home on the first plane and he couldn't give a toss whether they were children or not. As you'll well understand, this resulted in calls from Guardian columnists and Left wing MP's for his immediate suspension from the BBC and for him to be sacked from match of the day for being xenophobic, one of the greatest crimes known to humanity, up there with racism and sexism.It was of course immediately realised by the Sun and political right that this was some form of trap, so they leaped to his defence and challenged that nobody should have their job threatened for having the temerity to speak out on issues of public policy, and that a belief in freedom of speech meant that we must be tolerant of opposing views, even if we found them offensive or upsetting.
I can't see the point you're making. That's just a load of shit.
I can't see the point you're making
'There are none so blind as those who will not see, The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’
'There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’
Mate you're scaring me now
'There are none so blind as those who will not see, The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’
So, by inventing some kind of scenario that didn't happen, then using said invented scenario to supposedly "make a point" - you do realise what you are doing there, don't you?
If you don't, seek help.
Why flip the scenario? That's not what happened. Fascist.
You are just embarrassing yourself ninfan.
Flip the scenario, retard
You sound nice
[img] 
[/img]
if
There goes the construct, then. Two little letters. Crucial letters, though. Can someone please restock the barrel? All the fish in this one have been shot.
Ninfan.
I asked for a reason why anything he said should result in his job being threatened.
You then went on to assume I'm some sort of hand wringing liberal grauniad reader, which I'm not.
I don't care what Lineker said (though in this case I do agree with him), I want to know why so many people found it so offensive.
I dislike this sort of hounding whichever side does it, so many people in the public eye are having careers messed up from saying relatively innocuous things.
However, fascists cannot continue to play the underdog or victim of PC when their own lot are doing exactly the same thing they moan about happening to them.
Also, I work with disabled children who have to deal every day with arseholes like you calling them retards. If you like, you can come and meet them and explain why you think your use of that word makes you so cool.
Either answer my question when you choose to quote me or don't quote me. Don't use my quotes to paint me as something I'm not, because you don't know me.
Flip the scenario, retard - if lineker had said something negative or offensive about immigrants, the same people currently lauding him would be the first ones calling for him to be sacked.
Oh dear.
Now go away and think about why that's pointless.
Also, I work with disabled children who have to deal every day with arseholes like you calling them retards. If you like, you can come and meet them and explain why you think your use of that word makes you so cool.
Oh very, very ****ing well said.
This thread makes me sad.
This thread makes me sad.
Oh, I don't know - driving bigots into a foaming rage by exposing their made-up, bullshit constructs for what they are is quite a noble pastime. I'd much rather be riding my bike, but a bout of the shits mean this is about my limit today.
Ninfan.
I asked for a reason why anything he said should result in his job being threatened.
You then went on to assume I'm some sort of hand wringing liberal grauniad reader, which I'm not.
Where do you suggest that I assumed anything about you, I simply pointed out an alternative scenario that would have seen very different treatment from 'the usual suspects on both sides'
I don't care what Lineker said (though in this case I do agree with him), I want to know why so many people found it so offensive.
I dislike this sort of hounding whichever side does it, so many people in the public eye are having careers messed up from saying relatively innocuous things.
However, fascists cannot continue to play the underdog or victim of PC when their own lot are doing exactly the same thing they moan about happening to them.
Well done, unlike Dannyh, you get the point
Also, I work with disabled children who have to deal every day with arseholes like you calling them retards. If you like, you can come and meet them and explain why you think your use of that word makes you so cool.
Ah, so you don't [i]really[/i] believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
works two ways doesn't it, see your own point above.Either answer my question when you choose to quote me or don't quote me. Don't use my quotes to paint me as something I'm not, because you don't know me.
Ah, so you don't really believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
Own your language, that's all I ask. I'm not hounding you, just offering you the opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the words you choose.
i do so love threads which become all things to all men
Ah, so you don't really believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
Oh stop playing the victim. Using the term "retard" as an insult isn't innocuous - it's offensive. If you don't see this then you are a very coarse individual.
No doubt you'll frame our objections to your language as "eeeh, it's PC Gone Mad" or something, but that would say far more about you than us.
Own your language, that's all I ask
Perfectly happy to, but on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words, for fear that they offended someone. Probably better with a dedicated thread, but happy to discuss that argument in detail
but on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words, for fear that they offended someone.
The standard bigot's getout clause. And a (wilful) misunderstanding of how language works.
Man uses pejorative language to dismiss the importance of retaining pejorative language shocker 😆
Ninfan.
As an aside did you realise that auto-correct rewrites your user name as 'infant'? I have to say, I find that absolutely wonderful.
For the record, I did get the 'point' you were trying so inexpertly to make. It's not difficult. The practice of setting up a line of argument based on a hypothetical construct is something that most kids master by the age of ten or so. That your point is based on a fallacy, and one of your own construction does weaken it somewhat. If you don't see this, then please stop before everyone is just reduced to laughing and pointing.
Ninfan, I think somewhere in all of this we kind of agree. This need to constantly condemn public figures for speaking up is having a damaging and increasingly polarising effect. However, I can't help but appreciate the irony of all the people who have been loudly banging on about this kind of public hounding doing exactly what they supposedly stand against. Either they are pro free speech, in which case Lineker is free to say what he likes without harrassment, or they are pro censorship and should grow up and admit it. They can't have their cake and eat it.
Dannyh, Strange, my autocorrect doesn't come up with that... are you sure it's not just your google search history kicking in?
Fin25, that's exactly the point, it's virtue signalling expanding into extreme hypocrisy on both sides - both those publically supporting him, who would be the first to call for his sacking if he said something they found offensive, and those attacking him, who would be the first to leap to his defence. We see the same thing happening with, for example, the 'no platforming' and 'safe space' games that are going on, it's just another way of expanding this social bubble filtering effect that excludes alternative points of view because we can't handle cognitive dissonance
Strange, my autocorrect doesn't come up with that... are you sure it's not just your google search history kicking in?
Yes, sure of that. Thanks for the concern, [s]infant[/s] ninfan.
Does your autocorrect also pick up poor debating constructs? It would appear not.
Have you finished trying to argue your way out of this now? It's just that the insults seem to be getting more frequent. If it is the case, I can trade insults with you for a while - although I suspect you would show more tenacity.
Losing an argument and resorting to abuse is one thing, but losing an argument that you have based around a fallacy you have yourself constructed is just pitiful.
I'm still to get an explanation of what he said that deserves being attacked though...
Ninfan, I do get your point about the shared hypocrisy on both sides, however clumsily you made it.
At this point it seems appropriate to leave you with the words of Sage Francis.
"I'm not left wing, or right wing, I'm the middle finger."
Peace.
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
You can't take away someone's entire reportoire of tactics, though, that's not fair.
Far better to let him run with it for a bit, just so we all know what we're dealing with.
Man uses pejorative language to dismiss the importance of retaining pejorative language shocker
OK I'll try again, because the devil is in the detail.
Your misconception is that all pejorative words are equal, and anyone who objects to the pejorative "retard" must also object to all pejoratives. This is a logical fallacy.
There are words in our language that most people don't use in public discourse. Not because there is some PC "list" of proscribed words dictated to us from on high, but because of a loose consensus that they are offensive. Usually, these words are considered offensive because they perpetuate a power imbalance; ie, they are words used by the (relatively) powerful about the (relatively) powerless. Racial and gender insults are examples.
People who defend their right to use such words publicly usually do so because, consciously or not, they wish to deny the power imbalances which gave rise to such words in the first place.
In my view, "retard" is a cheap insult which shows contempt for people with learning difficulties. I work with many people with learning difficulties and would choose their company any day of the week over someone who dismisses them as "retards".
So use the word if you like. There's no law against it, nor do I think there should be. But if you do, you should be aware that it signals to others something about your levels of compassion and empathy for others less fortunate. And sometimes, people will call you out on it.
Right. That's my best shot at explaining, calmly and patiently, the issue. Carry on.
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words because they ran the risk of causing offence or perpetuating a power imbalance. There is a strong lobby for the same treatment for the C-word on the basis of how it pertains to women for example. It's a road down which we ought to tread with caution, since we know where it leads
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
Well, I was just about to raise but by saying:
Woah, see that line waaaaaaaaaay back there?
You're right, new depths.
Spot on hebdencyclist. Such is the power of language.
(OTish) I remember watching There's Something About Mary for the first time. The use of 'retard' in that film surprised and shocked me more than any number of C bombs ever could (not that that would shock me at all - realise though that says more about me and my cultural sensibilities than anything else).
Danny, mate, go back and read what you wrote, you're also flinging insults too...
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words because
He clearly stated
There's no law against it, nor do I think there should be
Hebden and others, have a read of this, i think Kerry Anne Mendoza hits the nail firmly on the head in this piece
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words
I've addressed this at some length.
There's no point in having a debate with someone who won't come out of their bunker.
As I say, write what you like, but be aware that others do form a judgement of you based on the words you choose.
Getting back on track....
[b]fin25[/b], Lineker said/tweeted "The treatment by some towards these young refugees is hideously racist and utterly heartless. What’s happening to our country?"
Now, unless you're going to argue that not one single person has ever said anything racist about the refugees he's talking about then he's right. It could be two people in a BNP local meeting, it could be MPs and the people writing newspaper front pages. But to say "Lineker is wrong" is to say that not a single person in the UK has acted in a racist way towards the refugees.
Edit: The tweet is here: https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/788407048031600640
Have a read of the replies if you've got too much faith in humanity and need to bring it down a bit.
The use of 'retard' in that film surprised and shocked me
Yeah. It's been a while since I've seen that but isn't his use of "retard" to do with signalling his character's general ineptitude and immaturity?
"This is England" is full of the use of the word "P@ki". I don't think anyone would argue it's a racist film; just that it has a racist character in it.