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Ah ok!
@kelvin I meant on this forum it is lazy and perpetuates the trope for those of the populace who don't do nuance and critical thinking.
Let's consign it to the outer reaches like the terms [Post edited to remove derogatory terms - mods] that are derogatory.
popped up again
Hmmmm
I know the complaint is against the Beeb not the commentators; but to complain about access issues to a one off 20min token programme for one group who struggle for equality and fair treatment because the Beeb staff have withdrawn their labour in support of a colleague defending the rights of another group struggling for equality and fair treatment feels incredibly egocentric.
Can we not use this term. No one is illegal and certainly not those poor folk risking all to cross the Channel. Thet are refugees or asylum seekers and it is not illegal to be either.
No economic migrants in the mix at all? Like, none?
No economic migrants in the mix at all? Like, none?
If you're a real asshat, you could deem that even people fleeing war and persecution will end in a UK where they can get higher pay than they ever could at home and are therefore "econonic migrants". But you'd have to be a bit of a **** to do that - I'm sure no-one on this forum would be that small-minded.
It just reads like a definitive statement of fact. Just wondering if something had changed overnight. War in France for example?
War in France for example?
Ah, the old "no wars on our borders, so we have no responsibility for refugees" argument. It's a point of view. Lineker isn't the only one to disagree with it though. Travelling to the UK from countries hit means coming though a country that does border us. It's just geography.
War in France for example?
Have you invested in a giant pack of tired old bullshit?
Ah, the old “no wars on our borders, so we have no responsibility for refugees” argument. It’s a point of view. Lineker isn’t the only one to disagree with it though. Travelling to the UK from countries hit means coming though a country that does border us. It’s just geography.
Completely missed my point. Never mind.
Have you invested in a giant pack of tired old bullshit?
Why so cross? Does your mum know you’re on the computer?
The irony is strong with conservative mp writing about right to free speech.
Does your mum know you’re on the computer?
Pot - kettle
Completely missed my point. Never mind.
To be fair it can be difficult to establish what your point is. One minute you seem to be supporting the government's attitude towards migrants and those fleeing wars and persecution, then you appear to preform a summersault and announce that of course you believe that the government's attitude is unacceptable.
You justified this to me, after I pointed out your inconsistencies a couple of days, by informing me that you reserve the right to change your mind.
Which of course everyone has. But it does sometimes make it difficult to know wtf you are on about, if you don't mind me saying.
No economic migrants in the mix at all? Like, none?
If there are, then the proper way to deal with them is to receive them, judge their asylum claim fairly (and in a timely way), then remove them if it fails.
The clear majority of asylum claims from boat arrivees have historically be found in favour of the applicant. If we declare them all illegal and deny them the opportunity to lodge a claim and ship them off to Rwanda or wherever, doesn't exactly seem fair on the people who have a valid asylum claim.
The underlying problem is that we are not processing asylum claims in anything like a proper time, so the system is creaking and people are being held in hotels for well over a year. There appears to be little appetite from the government to do anything about this, as it creates a 'crisis' which they believe benefits them electorally.
Ernie. Fair cop. Point taken.
martinhutch. Agree with all of that.
I just think statements like “ALL are…” are dumb and don’t help their argument. A similar bollocks binary statement would be to say “they’re ALL Albanian young men/economic migrants. That would’ve been jumped all over. Seems nobody cares if you declare something that is bollocks as long as it’s the right kind of bollocks.
The actual figure of asylum claims that are granted is 75%. Not that you’ll ever hear that figure from anyone in government, who want to criminalise and deport 100% of them, though god knows where to. Afghanistan? Syria? Iran?
Anyway… it’s not even worth discussing. The whole thing is illegal under international law and will fall apart under the first legal challenge, as Cruella knows full well
But then it was never a serious policy proposal anyway. It’s just more culture war bollocks, so that they can scream ‘woke’ to their nasty, racist base as they blame ‘lefty lawyers’ for not letting them cart everyone off to Rwanda (which is just another non-starter, legally)
It’s just a form of non-virtue signalling.
It’s just a form of non-virtue signalling.
I think you're probably correct. Only thing is - if I was a blue blooded dyed in the wool gammon, bred to lap this stuff up surly you'd get to the point where you might think your tory overlords might just be a bit inept if they can't get their very sensible proposals into actions and are stymied are every turn by some feeble (probably vegan) lefty woke lawyers - even with a thumping great majority and 13 years in power. Or maybe it's just to provoke them into staying angry with the world...and an angry gammon can be relied upon to vote right.
So now your trying to censor quotes, and stop others quoting the nuance that our elected government have come up with, on a thread which is essentially about censorship, let me get my ironing board.
Oh no, dont say that, don't repeat that, it isn't very nice and might hurt the ears of babies. On a mtb forum which might get read by a couple of hundred people tops. Most of whom have good enough eyesight to see the quote marks and a high enough IQ to form their own option and not believe it, just because it has been written down.
Albania is not on the gov list of a country where they persecute and torture people, yet last year they made up 42% of people recorded crossing on small boats. As Albania is one of the poorest Western countries i would imagine at least some of them will be economic migrants.
Its unfortunate that they get lumped in with the Kurds, Iragis, Afgans, Syrians Africans who are genuinely escaping from torture and imprisonment.
Yet again a thread gets spiralled off on a tangent because someone said something someone didn't like so they had to go all keyboard over it. Way too much uneccessary drama. I may be a thicko but when you cant quote something that you do or dont disagree with, in context, without being jumped on, thats just sad really.
Edit.
Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick.
when you cant quote something that you do or dont disagree with, in context, without being jumped on, thats just sad really
Agreed, especially where you were clear that it was “dispicable”. Your context and meaning were clear in your post. Nothing to complain about.
Boys, boys - settle down.
It's worth noting that, although I'm not aware anyone has said all migrants are young Albanian men, many tories are saying the majority of migrants are that group - jenrick on QT most recently.
Predictably, tice trotted out the same lie in R4 Any Questions on Friday.
It will certainly be a feature of mail and express coverage as well as being echoed in their comment sections.
Yes, even though that is a group that is easy to return if their asylum application is rejected.
If I were an Albanian chap I’d chuck my ID overboard and say I’m from Syria. That’s just me though. Nobody else would do such a dishonest thing.
You’d have to be pretty good at learning languages. Asylum fraud isn’t easy. Reading the wrong media might bring you to think otherwise though.
BBC says Albanians were 28% of small boat immigrants in 2022 not 42%.
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-63473022
Ah fair enough. My dastardly plan fails at the first hurdle. So plan B: When mr asylum fraud inspector tells me to pull the other one, you’re not Syrian, now tell me where you’re from so I can send you back. I’m just going to keep my gob shut. Hope they don’t tickle the truth out of me.
Meanwhile over the last few days thousands of people have been rescued in international waters between Libia and Italy and there are currently 5000 people in the 400 capacity refugee camp on Lampadusa.
France has pulled out of South Sahara leaving Wagner to do their best/worst and the crisis isn't going away any time soon.
What would you do if you were there? I think I'd risk drowning rather than get shot/hacked to bits/starved/enslaved... .
You’d think that with a massive need for workers in this country presently, the kind of person with the nouse to get themselves out of a war zone, then half way round the planet would be just what we need
"What would you do if you were there? I think I’d risk drowning rather than get shot/hacked to bits/starved/enslaved… ."
I met a family from Sudan last year who had gone through the very same.
Well I say Sudan, the parents were Sudanese but had fled for their lives from the Janjaweed militia who wanted to kill them, the children were born in a migrant camp in Libiya, where they lived until their early teens.
Then we decided to try a bit of regime change and now there were lots of Libyans and terrorists of various nationalities that wanted to kill them, and British and French planes dropping bombs on them, not trying to kill them but you know...bombs.
Mum and Dad decided to take the family to the coast and risk the crossing and you know what? the Mediterranean Sea wanted to kill them too!
How they eventually got to the UK I don't know but I'm glad for them that they did and the UK is a better place for their presence.
EDIT:
Just seen Binners comment, the family are exactly those sort of people.
This ‘economic migrant’ bollocks. What’s the problem? We are extremely lucky to live in a rich country. As a result people from poorer countries will want to come here. Would all those whining about economic migrants prefer the opposite to be the case?
Affordable housing is an issue. Where would they all live? There’s not enough for the people who already live here. A total pie in the sky solution would be to enable all these people to work building massive new council estates and new towns.
We are funding the building of a detention centre in France. Why not make it an application for asylum centre? That would help stop the boats and the people traffickers. We could fly people straight from the refugee camps in Africa/ Syria also. & change the law so asylum seekers can work!
If only someone in government had the desire to help these people.
Absolute bollocks as you say, in only a few years time it will be obvious to even the most bone headed moron that there are no young people left to keep the country working.
Especially when you consider that the brightest and best of British youth will have finished digging their escape tunnels by then...
Affordable housing is an issue. Where would they all live? There’s not enough for the people who already live here
There's tons of houses around me that sit empty most of the year, waiting for their owners to come up for an occasional holiday.
If the UK needs immigration to satisfy labour shortages the ability and desire to survive might have its appeal but reducing immigration policy to the level of the Hunger Games doesn't seem particularly attractive to me.
Most people would agree that it is not morally justified to allow Albanians, for example, to circumvent the normal immigration processes if they simply pay people smugglers and risk their lives by making a treacherous sea crossing in dangerous and unsuitable crafts.
People who might lack the physical strength to make those journeys, or the ability to pay people smugglers, also have a right to be considered.
This doesn't however make those who attempt the crossing "criminals" any more than those who might steal food because they and their families are hungry. No one believes that stealing food should be legally allowed but very few people would condemn hungry people for stealing.
In the case of Albania it isn't straightforward anyhow imo as although in theory it is a safe European country in reality it is I believe a relatively dangerous country with very high levels of lawlessness and criminality.
The whole small boats issue is a highly complex issue which needs to be handled with compassion and humanity at its heart. And not exploited and used as an excuse to whip hatred and to scrape the gutter for votes.
Edit: To be clear my comment is aimed at those who lump everyone who attempts to enter the UK illegally as the same.
There’s tons of houses around me that sit empty most of the year, waiting for their owners to come up for an occasional holiday.
Don’t even get me started on that. If I was PM I’d give them all six months to sell their holiday homes to local residents at a heavily reduced rate or it gets confiscated and given to Albanians.
Other issue with Albanians is that many may be victims of modern slavery, especially the younger ones, but that's incredibly hard to prove
I think Mo Farahs story has done a lot to raise the issue of modern slavery.
Not allowing asylum seekers to work hugely self-defeating, especially when we have labour shortages, that are contributing to inflation and failing services.
With the processing backlog of 3 years?!?! that means government has to support them until their application is granted or not & it wouldn't be surprising if they turned to crime or grey economy in the meantime
And what no politician wants to admit is that Western countries with ageing demographics need young workers
Germany absorbed a huge number of migrants in the last decade using them in housebuilding in particular to boost their gdp
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/germany-s-economy-will-grow-faster-because-of-the-million-refugees-it-is-helping-study-finds-10505647.html
We are funding the building of a detention centre in France. Why not make it an application for asylum centre?
Because they feel that it would make them appear to be soft. And yet that is precisely what they are proposing to do in Rwanda - to have a detention centre in Rwanda where people's asylum applications will be processed, before a decision is made.
The difference is that sending them to Rwanda sounds tough. Ultimately the only thing the current UK government wants out of the misery of desperate people's lives is maximum political milage.
And what no politician wants to admit is that Western countries with ageing demographics need young workers
I thought SNP and Scottish Green govt have been openly saying exactly this for a number of years?
No economic migrants in the mix at all? Like, none?
Well, even if there is, so what?
As I said earlier, net migration to the UK is about half a million per annum. You're arguing about a dinghy containing a dozen brown people and questioning whether at least one of them might be a chancer. Shall we just start building machine gun nests across the coast now to provide a final solution?
Hey, we could solve homelessness in much the same way, I'd give them money but I heard that some of them might be criminals. 🤷♂️
Stick end wrong got the of the.
Well, even if there is, so what?
As I said earlier, net migration to the UK is about half a million per annum. You’re arguing about a dinghy containing a dozen brown people and questioning whether at least one of them might be a chancer. Shall we just start building machine gun nests across the coast now to provide a final solution?
Hey, we could solve homelessness in much the same way, I’d give them money but I heard that some of them might be criminals. 🤷♂️
I wasn't arguing anything. But don't let that stop you from shoehorning in your hilarious 'twelve brown people in a dinghy' joke. Again.
Affordable housing is an issue. Where would they all live?
Maybe some of them are builders, architects, bricklayers...
singletrackmind
Full MemberStick end wrong got the of the.
It's easy for you to say that.
But what does it mean?
I wasn’t arguing anything. But don’t let that stop you from shoehorning in your hilarious ‘twelve brown people in a dinghy’ joke. Again.
Well, no, you were talking abject bollocks. But pointing that out doesn't make for a constructive discussion so I thought I'd ask a question of you instead. Which you ignored.
So, again, "what if there is?" In the grand scheme of things is processing a few shitbags worth the investment if it also means we save lives of people genuinely trying not to die?
The whole "we're full, go away" approach is straight out of the Farage Playbook.
So, again, “what if there is?”
What indeed. I don't know what you want me to say. The original poster that I replied to said that 'ALL boat people are asylum seekers'. I pointed out that that statement was false. That's it.
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Maybe some of them are builders, architects, bricklayers…
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No doubt. Which is why if you read the rest of my post you'd see that I said that these chappies could work here building new towns and council estates. Another poster pointed out that Germany have done this successfully. And I applaud that.
I've not read any of the thread, but 14 pages discussing a tweet by Gary Lineker? 🙂
I would guess he's thinking about running for President/PM.
What a time to be alive!
Economic migrants, what a bunch of ****s.
Those workshy West African spongers have completely transformed parts of North Manchester from heroin ravaged hellholes into functioning suburbs, once again.
My mate who's a headmistress in one of the local schools is absolutely sick of parents knocking on her door demanding to get involved helping their aspirational, well dressed, well fed, desperate to learn kids make the most of their opportunities.
Meanwhile, their workshy parents have flooded the NHS workforce with their stupid, hard to understand accents.
They must have something to hide - many of them change their African names to something more European in order to hide their dodgy pasts.
Many proud Mancunians of recent Jewish, European, Ukrainian and Asian heritage are rightly appalled by this flagrant invasion.
My French, Spanish, Flemish, Irish, Scottish Catholic and East European Jewish ancestors must be turning in their graves.
What's your point caller? Nobody's arguing against economic migration. We need that. And there exists the work visa scheme to enable it.
Nobody’s arguing against economic migration.
Oh please.
That's just willful ignorance.
The original poster that I replied to said that ‘ALL boat people are asylum seekers’.
That would be a valid statement. They will all step off the boat and seek asylum. Some of those claims will be genuine (most of them, historically), and a minority will not.
Realistically, no-one is going to enter the country this way and try to obtain a work visa.
I would guess he’s thinking about running for President/PM.
Are there many people who think that wouldn't be an improvement? If Zelensky can go from light entertainment to esteemed wartime leader..
Oh please.
That’s just willful ignorance.
Could you elucidate please? Who is arguing against economic migration and why?
Who is arguing against economic migration and why?
Again, willful ignorance.
Engaging with you makes me feel like I've soiled myself.
And not in a good way.
Affordable housing is an issue. Where would they all live? There’s not enough for the people who already live here.
Here's a radical idea, the government could specify and fund some housing for rental through the local councils. We could call it something benign like "Council Housing". It would hopefully make the market more realistic and stop this sort of thing. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/mar/12/worried-about-rent-spare-a-thought-for-your-poor-landlord
Engaging with you makes me feel like I’ve soiled myself.
You certainly soiled yourself with that wall 'o'' guff up there 🤣
Here’s a radical idea, the government could specify and fund some housing for rental through the local councils. We could call it something benign like “Council Housing”.
Absolutely 100%
I don’t know what you want me to say. The original poster that I replied to said that ‘ALL boat people are asylum seekers’. I pointed out that that statement was false. That’s it.
I'm curious as to why you felt the need to bring it up. Devil's advocate?
Also, what Martin said.
Nobody’s arguing against economic migration.
As far as I'm aware, you were the first to mention it on this thread.
I thought SNP and Scottish Green govt have been openly saying exactly this for a number of years?
Indeed they have
makes me feel like I’ve soiled myself.
And not in a good way.
Have I been missing out on one of life's little pleasures?
I’m curious as to why you felt the need to bring it up. Devil’s advocate?
I've no idea now you come to mention it. Seems so long ago...
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As far as I’m aware, you were the first to mention it on this thread.
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Maybe so. I'm pretty sure I wasn't arguing against it though, and nobody else here has from memory. And I'm genuinely not aware of who publicly argues against economic migration. That's why I asked mr incontinent to elucidate, as I'd be interested to hear the argument.
And I’m genuinely not aware of who publicly argues against economic migration.
tories and brexiteers argue against it all the time
You certainly soiled yourself with that wall ‘o” guff up there 🤣
All my family, apart from my parents were migrants.
My grandparents and great grandparents were welcomed into this country.
Some to fight with honour for their adopted homeland, some to work in the Lancashire cotton mills and Sheffield steel mills, some to escape persecution and civil war.
You need to think before you post.
tories and brexiteers argue against it all the time
No the Tories don't argue publicly against economic migration.
Have I been missing out on one of life’s little pleasures?
🙂
tories and brexiteers argue against it all the time
Ah, the penny drops. You're talking about illegal economic migration. Such as travelling by boat without a work visa and passing yourself off as a genuine refugee in need of asylum.
And back to square one we go...
All my family, apart from my parents were migrants.
My grandparents and great grandparents were welcomed into this country.
Some to fight with honour for their adopted homeland, some to work in the Lancashire cotton mills and Sheffield steel mills, some to escape persecution and civil war.You need to think before you post.
Making a list of your family's history and achievements doesn't give credence to nor explain your subsequent lack of clarification regarding explaining who is against economic migration. So respectfully, I think you need to think before you post.
Frankie Boyle can f off.
Part of the problem with one side or other claiming that the BBC is biased is that they're both right.
For the last 20 years the BBC's idea of fair and balanced has been to give all the news journalism roles to right wingers and all the comedy slots to left wingers.
When the average Daily Mail reader reads that the BBC is biased their minds immediately turn to Mock the Week, HIGNFY, Nish Kumar and Frankie Fing Boyle and they say "look how biased against the conservatives the BBC is".
It's not just Fox News who manage to blur the line between news and opinion...
and all the comedy slots to left wingers.
Because it is extremely hard to find someone who is right-wing and also funny.
Making a list of your family’s history and achievements doesn’t give credence to nor explain your subsequent lack of clarification regarding explaining who is against economic migration. So respectfully, I think you need to think before you post.
Why don't you explain who you believe is or isn't against economic migration?
You brought this up in the first place, you developed amnesia when I asked you about it, and then you brought it up again.
"Because it is extremely hard to find someone who is right-wing and also funny."
Tell yourself that if you like, I suggest you go and watch some Dave Chapelle, Chris Rock, Bill Burr or Bill Maher videos to see how you can be funny without wearing your political credentials on your wings.
So you think it isn't a problem that all the news presenters are right wing and all the comedians lefties? You can't see that the conflation of news and views can lead to misinformation and confusion?
As the Stoic Epictetus said ‘If you wish to be good, first believe that you are bad’, and ‘If anyone tells you that a certain person speaks ill of you, do not make excuses about what is said of you but answer “He was ignorant of my other faults, else he would not have mentioned these alone”’.
All the above American comedians follow that maxim. The UK equivalent are a bunch of virtue signalling tossers.
Or, as Geoff Norcott put it, "if you're clapping instead of laughing then it isn't comedy"
Shall we just start building machine gun nests across the coast now to provide a final solution?
That was being saved for the election manifesto!
Dealing with increased population from immigration is just the same as dealing with increased population from natural expansion of existing families - you need to have more housing, more doctors, more hospitals, more elderly care - in fact more of just about everything.
If stuff starts to go wrong that is because of lack of management, crap policies etc,. by the various governments over the years. UK has gone from 50MM in 1960 to current 67MM and only half of that is net migration and 17MM is lot of people who need houses and all the other stuff. And as it is projected to continue to increase until 2050 then the governments not only need to catch up a lot they need to continue increasing everything.
Tell yourself that if you like, I suggest you go and watch some Dave Chapelle, Chris Rock, Bill Burr or Bill Maher videos to see how you can be funny without wearing your political credentials on your wings.
The Famously political comedian Bill Maher and the ill informed culture war ranter Bill Burr? Well done for selecting examples that demonstrate the opposite of your argument..
Ah, the penny drops. You’re talking about illegal economic migration.
Nope - I am talking about all economic miigrants
I think you will find i started it.
Sandwich called me out saying 100% of boat people were legally looking for asylum.
It was then questioned to be not true, as 42% of intercepted boat people were Albanians, who are most likely to be economic migrants
No one said we can't have immigration
No one said we cant or shouldn't have economic migration
The question was, Are all boat people seeking asylum for political or personal reasons, when the answer is clearly No, some of those who come here on a rubber boat are looking to earn money by whatever meams, for whatever reason, legit or otherwise.
HTH
The UK equivalent are a bunch of virtue signalling tossers.
Bingo!
It was then questioned to be not true, as 42% of intercepted boat people were Albanians, who are most likely to be economic migrants
false Its half that and that was a particular snapshot anyway
No one said we can’t have immigration
False - tories and brexiteers argue mainly against all immigration
No one said we cant or shouldn’t have economic migration
False torres and brexiteers are against economic migration