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I wish that were true, but this is a good example of the echo chamber in action. Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind them.
I suppose that's somewhat true, but it's important to note that general demographic of people who go to the effort of creating DM accounts and the like, to enable them to post on the 'news' articles are already too far gone and are just using it as a friendly 'safe space' to vent thier vitriol. See also: articles about cyclists.
I doubt many of them are 'floating voters'.
Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind them
Indeed, but that’s just their hardcore Tory voters anyway. And while it’s reinforcing that vote it’s repelling far more moderate voters. That’s why they’re 20+% behind in every poll. They’ve given up trying to appeal to anyone other than racist pensioners
I wish that were true, but this is a good example of the echo chamber in action.
Quite.
It reminds me of Brexit in a way. "Surely nobody, actually nobody will vote leave right? Right?"
Doh!
Labour need to at least pretend that they will try to sort out this mess or we're in for for another god knows how long for the tories (or worse).
Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind them.
I'm at my parent's house right now and made the mistake of reading their copies of the DM. I genuinely don't know how I survive living in this country knowing that people with those views openly expressed in the paper, especially it's letters page, are all around. Tellingly the one single comment by a reader that is in support of Lineker's tweet has had their name and address not published, fear of reprisals?
binners
Full Member
Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind themIndeed, but that’s just their hardcore Tory voters anyway. And while it’s reinforcing that vote it’s repelling far more moderate voters. That’s why they’re 20+% behind in every poll. They’ve given up trying to appeal to anyone other than racist pensioners
I'm crossing my fingers and toes that you're right and I'm wrong! I just know how the blokes I speak to in the pub or Screwfix will react to this and it won't be to say Gary Lineker is right.
"I wish that were true, but this is a good example of the echo chamber in action. Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind them.'
That target audience isn't big enough to win an election. They will need at least a few sentient voters to get on board if they even stood a chance.
And to a certain extent that target audience has no skin in this game, for the most part they have been tucked up in bed by their carers by the time MOTD airs.
Follow on story. But you look through the comments on stuff like this and realise we're doomed. Is this really representative of how people think?
When a story develops as quickly as this one does it presents an opportunity to show the naysayers as being falsifyably wrong on an almost minute by minute basis.
"Good riddance, get someone else in to replace the over paid divas' they said.
errr.....nope.
What we are witnessing here is the market deciding, the culture war is starting to crumble.
If a government mp can use an analogy to Nazi Germany then Gary can refer to 1930's Germany.
Unfortunately if you read the comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph you’ll see that the Tory’s target audience has fallen right in behind them.
That really isn't their target audience. The people who post comments to Daily Mail articles are going to vote Tory next general election come what may.
They make up in part the 26% who are currently telling pollsters that they would vote Tory if there was a general election right now. The Tories aren't targeting them.
The Daily Telegraph doesn't provide for its readers to comment to news stories but you can be sure that their die-hard Tory readers also make up part of the 26%.
The very latest poll, taken after the "Stop The Boats" Tory campaign was launched, puts the Tories on 26%. There is currently no evidence that the Tories's latest gimmick is being backed by their target audience.
A 26% share of the vote in a general election would be the Tories's worse ever general election result.
A a person in a position of influence (although goodness knows why anyone should be influenced by such a person) he should not express his opinions. He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
Isn't that exactly what he does on the telly?
I see that the LibDem leader Ed Davey has weighed into the debate, with some impressive nailhead knocking:
“This saga has shown failure at the very top of the BBC and the dire need to urgently protect their independence.
“We need leadership at the BBC that upholds our proud British values and can withstand today’s consistently turbulent politics and Conservative bullying tactics.
“Sadly, under Richard Sharp’s leadership, this has not been the case: his appointment and position are now totally untenable and he must resign.
“The BBC should be a champion of freedom of speech and must overhaul their current rules and judgment on impartiality. They can’t continue to play by rules that are so one-sided.
“The Conservative Government has systematically attacked and undermined the independence of our BBC. That’s not in the best interests of our country and our democracy and Liberal Democrats will fiercely stand up against this.”
The Conservative Government has systematically attacked and undermined the independence of our BBC
So did Labour. The BBC are co-responsible for the invasion of Iraq with Blair. The difference between the BBC reporting and German/French/Spanish channels was striking. Blair's personnal propaganda machine.
Edukator
Free Member
The Conservative Government has systematically attacked and undermined the independence of our BBCSo did Labour. The BBC are co-responsible for the invasion of Iraq with Blair. The difference between the BBC reporting and German/French/Spanish channels was striking. Blair’s personnal propaganda machine.
I don't ever remember any Labour ministers saying the BBC should only reflect the views of the government who are the only true voice of the people. Which is what the Tories are more or less saying.
I see that the LibDem leader Ed Davey has weighed into the debate
It's kinda hard to argue against any of those comments to be fair.
Are only the right wing starmer faction of the Labour party allowed to comment on the tories? Or maybe only the left wing 'corbynite' faction?
Are other political parties allowed to exist in your world? the 2 party flip-flop system between labour and conservative is a huge problem in this country, and answers a lot of questions as to why we never seem to make good progress as a nation.
So did Labour
And you think Ed Davey should have included that in his statement?
Do you believe that a long rambling convoluted history of the BBC and its impartiality would have provided a better level of support for Lineker and his right to have an opinion?
I said that I was impressed with the nailhead knocking because it did precisely that - it knocked all the nails on the head, directly. It didn't go off on a waffling tangent.
A a person in a position of influence (although goodness knows why anyone should be influenced by such a person) he should not express his opinions. He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
You think? We should only ever speak on matters around our expertise? Set that trend, why don't you?
Ernie and his bizarre questions trying to put words into people's mouths. 🙂 I'll try and answer:
Ed Davey didn't consult me before making the statement.
I can't make head nor tail of the second question so can't work out what I might believe about it.
I agree with Ed Davey's points but IMO (I have no idea about his beacause he doesn't adresse the issue) he fails to recognise that the BBC has produced the propaganda desired by every government since its creation not just the current Conservative government. It operates under a royal charter and answers to the head of state and his government. Any idea that the BBC is independant or impartial is an illusion and always has been.
A a person in a position of influence (although goodness knows why anyone should be influenced by such a person) he should not express his opinions. He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
Perhaps you could tell us your experience so we can understand how you have the experience to comment on this topic. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite trying to justify some obnoxious opinions
Ed Davey didn’t consult me before making the statement
I see the problem.
A a person in a position of influence (although goodness knows why anyone should be influenced by such a person) he should not express his opinions. He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
Anyone posting on social media is potentially in a 'position of influence'. You are offering some kind of opinion on journalistic ethics, so would it be fair to ask you to post up your qualifications for doing so?
It's actually a benefit to have citizens prepared to attempt to be informed and express opinions about issues outside their professional life, whether it is politics, philosophy or cheese-making techniques. It's not necessarily a benefit to a paternalistic government that would like to avoid public scrutiny of highly-questionable or even illegal policies, though.
I’m crossing my fingers and toes that you’re right and I’m wrong! I just know how the blokes I speak to in the pub or Screwfix will react to this and it won’t be to say Gary Lineker is right.
Then just ask them how they'd feel about the government calling up their boss and getting them the sack for offering their opinions in said pub?
So where are you drawing that line Mattsccm?
There's a huge amount of art, literature, poetry, theatre, music...... you name it - we'd be a **** load worse off if the creators had to stick to the main trade or subject. I know describing twitter in the same way as the collected works of Orwell, Dylan, Hogarth, or Wilfred Owen, or Arthur Miller is a stretch but they're vehicles for expressing ideas and opinions.
I'm off to burn my Billy Bragg and Specials albums, how dare they have opinions and use their platform to express them.
martinhutch - you refer to paternalistic government; try autocratic.
Why not both? They want to create a docile unquestioning electorate which only looks where the government is pointing. If that works, they will do what they're told and vote the way they're told without the need for much outright autocratic behaviour.
I’d love to know who appoints anyone to be a ‘person of influence’ and what they’re basing the decision on to include footballers and ex-footballers?
It’s usually tabloid newspaper editors, isn’t it?
I can sort of see why you’d apply this to the enigmatic genius of Eric Cantona or a charity crusader like Marcus Rashford, but other than that….
A a person in a position of influence (although goodness knows why anyone should be influenced by such a person) he should not express his opinions. He should learn to be professional and keep his opinions to football.
I don't know you and am not going to bother trawling back through your posts to get a better handle, but I'm guessing our political stances and moral compasses are not very well aligned.....and I'm assuming GL's thoughts on Bravaman's words would not be yours....
But to double check your consistency - would you also condemn Alan Sugar's (a person of influence, though god knows why) tweets encouraging people to vote Tory and retweeting images of Corbyn photoshopped into a Naxi uniform. Because that's a whole other level from GL's words and he didn't get suspended from the Beeb.
This shit is going nuclear now. For the BBC, and hopefully the Tories, this looks increasingly like a PR meltdown.
Chris Morris once said if you wanted a terrorist attack that would truly bring the UK to its knees, just execute its top 100 celebrities.
Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer and other such sport pundits were previously part of the hegemony, quietly being immensely rich and presenting the footie every week. Having such popular figures in these positions suddenly go on strike is extraordinary.
You know the writing is on the wall when 6 Music are suddenly broadcasting a PR message from Sunak trying to distance himself from this. What utter morons they are.
You know the writing is on the wall
Ironically, it is, outside the BBC's front door.
https://twitter.com/carolvorders/status/1634511784026439681
Carol Vorderman as leading anti-corruption campaigner? Strange times we live in.
The 6Music reference made me think of Shaun Keaveny, who had a similar reprimand in 2019 over criticising Johnson's government on Twitter. The axe swung 2 years later, and I'm still annoyed for him. He's got an interesting take on the current situation:
https://twitter.com/shaunwkeaveny/status/1634472054807224320?cxt=HHwWgICz4ZHr564tAAAA
What happened on 6 music?
It’s just a matter of time before the army is drafted in to host MOTD.
The word on the street is Michelle Mone knows someone that can host. If you pay her £25M she'll sort it out
show reduced to 20 minutes tonight!
Strikes me that, as a public body, the BBC attempting to interfere with an individual's freedom of expression or private social media use would fall foul of a couple of articles of the EHRA.
Carol Vorderman has been a vociferous critic of dodgy/corrupt PPE contracts.
Unlikely, I know; similar to piers morgan shredding every minister who ventured onto Good Morning Britain during the pandemic.
Vorderman or Riley?
Me, I can't decide. Comparing both in their prime, how could one choose between them? Beautiful brainy ladies of the quiz-screen 😍
@jambourgie a wonderful contribution to the thread. You must feel very proud!
To be fair he does this sort of thing regularly for a reaction.
Incisive!
Nice piece by Adam Boulting:
Neatly makes the point about the sheer number of right wing 'presenticians' on TV. And yet Lineker is castigated for a tweet.
Tory snowflakes.
^^ Good piece that.👍
Tories are long since forever in next Tuesday territory.
Lineker is cool. He's just a bloke with a conscience.
Very few people are able to perform any kind of critical thinking. This is why society is screwed. The plebs rely on a cheap AF newspaper to give them their newsopinions. Bought my old man a copy of the Guardian and he laughed at the fact it cost three times more than the DM. He gets the DM twice a week and it's generally bought for him despite having a bigger income through his pension than he had whilst working. This is why the UK is on the path it is. Privileged old farkz.
MOTD is a much more pleasant experience without the commentary, almost like some sort of white noise app.
Watching Match of the Day now without the pundits which is a refreshing.
Brilliant! I like it very much. Let's hope it stays this way forever.
Woohoo ... just finished watching.
Reading stw without the trolls, which is a refreshing idea. Brilliant! I like it very much
Surprised to see the BBC have actually run an analytical piece of what the core issues are.
It's only a small piece but it does touch on things that I thought would be a no-go right now. Are they just trying to show they're not under govt control or have they genuinely realised the issue and are starting the journey back to where they should be?
Privileged old farkz
Like Gary 🙂
Yep imho the young do seem to be generally screwed over by the older generation, who seem unaware/uninterested of the changes to the ‘game’ over time.
It’s good thou that there are actually principled people telling it as it is.
The BBC can’t ever be impartial if it’s another revolving door with the Tory party or any other party.
I didnt bother watching MOTD as my own little protest.
The irony is if the BBC hadn't been the whipping boy for the tory scum and just left the tweet to blow away in the wind we all would have forgotten about it by now.
Plus, by waving around the big stick and being a bully, with the turn of events that's spiralled into headlines news, its brought the boat popping tory plans onto the front pages for an extended period of time and hopefully millions more people will now be aware of just how dispicable the ' send back the waves of illegals' plans are.
I skipped MOTD too! Power to the people 💪🤪
I can't find it now but I read a tweet saying BBC/MOTD have had complaints over last night's episode because it broke their accessibility guidelines; it was crap for blind people.
By 53% to 27%, Britons say the BBC was wrong to suspend Gary Lineker
75% of Labour voters think it was wrong, only 10% think it was right.
I don't think this is how Rishi Sunak was hoping things would pan out.
send back the waves of illegals
Can we not use this term. No one is illegal and certainly not those poor folk risking all to cross the Channel. Thet are refugees or asylum seekers and it is not illegal to be either.
There's a poisonous article by the Dorries woman on Spectator which is a big shopping list of Lineker mistakes on social media or just her being butt-hurt about people who have better moral standards than her crowd do. I'll not link as it was an utterly depressing look into a possibly disturbed mindset.
75% of Labour voters think it was wrong, only 10% think it was right.
That couldn't be more irrelevant to the Tories... they're not trying to get people who voted Labour in 2019 to swap their vote, they're trying to regain the support of those that voted Conservative before, especially those who did so for the first time... and motivate them to turn out and vote Tory again. Still, I agree it's not gone well for Sunak... only 51% of those polled that voted Conservative last time thought the BBC was right to suspend Lineker. That so many in football have stood with him isn't going to help the government at all. But I "think" Sunak has stayed away from the "invasion" and "influx" rhetoric himself though, so he could distance himself from this mess be shuffling out some of his ministers who have been happy to stoke up the hatred in the way Lineker has called them out for... well, he could if it wouldn't put his own position at risk with his more extreme MPs... and if he had anything else to fight elections on.
Can we not use this term.
They were quoting it, and calling it out as despicable, not supporting the use of it.
they’re not trying to get people who voted Labour in 2019 to swap their vote
The YouGov doesn't mention anything about "2019", where did you get that from?
It simply says that 75% of Labour voters are opposed to the suspension of Gary Lineker. Presumably that is 75% of people who currently claim to be Labour voters.
And it is indeed highly relevant to the Tories. They are currently predicted to face a devastating defeat next general election, winning support has to be their priority.
Presumably that is 75% of people who currently claim to be Labour voters.
No.
I turned over to talk TV and watched an interview with John Mair, former BBC producer on the Richard Tice program.(
(I dont watch these scum- more a case of keep your enemies closer)
Brilliant. John Mair much to the shock and horror of Richard Tice came out in favour of Gary Lineker and his right to speak. In fact he called talk tv, gb news etc hyenas, completely destroyed the argument that Gary Lineker is paid for by the tax payer by saying its not tax payers money, and the BBC is an independent broadcaster, not a state one and the financing is from a license fee, so nothing to do with taxpayers money.
The look f shock on Richards Tices face as this interview wasnt going how he thought it would go had me laughing. He tore them a new one.
Im not sure if they're going to be putting that one up on their YT channel.
No
Okay so when YouGov say Labour voters they mean Labour voters from a bygone time, not people who currently claim to be Labour voters.
That's obviously great news for Rishi Sunak. I'm sure that he is hugely relived by the YouGov findings.
After all it couldn’t be more irrelevant to him.
Thanks Kelvin.
not people who currently claim to be Labour voters
That's how polling works. "Labour voters" means people who voted Labour at the last general election. If they split based on "voting intention" instead, or on some other benchmark, such as results in local elections or something else, they say so explicitly.
I’m sure that he is hugely relived by the YouGov findings.
He won't be. Only 51% of Tory voters being in favour of the BBC action against Lineker is not good for him. The attempts at distancing him from this is underway... but won't work... because he can't sideline people in his government using the "invasion" and "influx" rhetoric that Lineker was challenging... and he's got little else to campaign with.
After all it couldn’t be more irrelevant to him.
I didn't say that. Just being clear that support for Lineker amongst those that voted Labour in 2019 is irrelevant to him... he really has no hope of wining anything other than a tiny number of those over, this year or next. He and his party are aiming at winning back people they have lost the support of since 2019, and more importantly motivate them to turn out to vote for them... rather than stay at home and not vote at all... especially in May's local elections.
dyna-ti
Full Member
I turned over to talk TV and watched an interview with John Mair, former BBC producer on the Richard Tice program.(
(I dont watch these scum- more a case of keep your enemies closer)Brilliant. John Mair much to the shock and horror of Richard Tice came out in favour of Gary Lineker and his right to speak. In fact he called talk tv, gb news etc hyenas, completely destroyed the argument that Gary Lineker is paid for by the tax payer by saying its not tax payers money, and the BBC is an independent broadcaster, not a state one and the financing is from a license fee, so nothing to do with taxpayers money.
The look f shock on Richards Tices face as this interview wasnt going how he thought it would go had me laughing. He tore them a new one.
The right wing proto-fascist populists are only in favour of free speech when it applies to them. They have a long track record of trying to suppress opposing views - see the sacking of Guito Harri for taking the knee.
Another heads up for that Adam Boulton piece up the page where he identifies the incestuous, revolving chair relationship between politicians and journalists to be at the root of the problem.
However this thing turns out, I think there will be a greater onus on all journalists and presenters not to be seen not to be censored. As I mentioned on another thread, BBC presenters seem to spend an awful lot of time taking instructions through their earpiece these days..
Oh... and has the phrase cancel culture been canceled?
Just watched about 5 mins of MOTD and the silence was deafening.
There was a a BBC executive on Kuenssberg today who hinted Lineker will be retired, maybe the BBC will use this as a chance to bring in a whole new generation of presenters.
Worked well for Question of Sport.
75% of Labour voters think it was wrong, only 10% think it was right.
To suspended him yes, what a massive own goal 😉. But wonder how many actually agree with his tweet 🤷♂️
Agreeing or disagreeing with his tweet is one thing.
Wether the language used by the government is reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's is another and as you point out, would require a different question to be posed.
Dehumanizing language coming from the lectern?...a bit like 1930's Germany.
Flags everywhere....a bit like 1930's Germany.
Daily Mail campaigning to see boat loads of child refugees sent back to Europe?....actually, that was 1930's Britain.
There was a a BBC executive on Kuenssberg today who hinted Lineker will be
retiredsacked,
Fixed that for him - as if any of the other presenters would view it as a shuffling of the pack rather than a sacking. The BBC needs to be careful that staff resentment over this issue doesn't spread outside sport, sacking Lineker could ignite a far more wide-ranging and long-lasting dispute.
Daily Mail campaigning to see boat loads of child refugees sent back to Europe?….actually, that was 1930’s Britain.
Indeed.
Apparently viewing figures were up by @500,000 for lasts nights MOTD. What would exp!anon that, novelty factor, not having to listen to the same old phrases, "it's a game of two halfs"😂😂??
Remove the chairman and replace with someone without political affiliations.
Sack the Director General and replace with someone competent.
Reinstate MOTD this evening, if it's too short notice then I'm sure Wrighty could set up pod-cast style from his living room and Gary and Alan could join in on Skype. (Just like they did during lockdown.)
Simples....
Viewing figures are based on watching the entire show. 20minutes of novelty value, versus an 80min show late at night, if I watch I'll dip out after the teams I'm interested in have been on.
Having said that I'm a fair weather footy fan.
Apparently viewing figures were up by @500,000 for lasts nights MOTD. What would exp!anon that,
Curiosity, nothing more or less. Although it'll be interesting to see them try to spin it as support for Lineker's sacking / bored of the commentary panel, etc.
Viewing figures were up mainly due to morbid curiosity, I'd guess. Having said that, some people do just want to watch the action, not the chat. Youtube generation and all that.
Fixed that for him
No need to fix it for me, it's what he said.
Having said that, some people do just want to watch the action, not the chat. Youtube generation and all that.
What they showed last night is on YouTube every week.
What they showed last night is on YouTube every week.
Yeah, I'd say there is a demand for both variants of highlight show. Just the goals/action, and an expanded version with the panel.
No need to fix it for me, it’s what he said.
Which is why I said 'fixed that for him'. 🙂
BBC Execs love their language of avoidance. Step back - suspended. Retired - sacked.
Apparently viewing figures were up by @500,000 for lasts nights MOTD. What would exp!anon that, novelty factor, not having to listen to the same old phrases, “it’s a game of two halfs”😂😂??
Compare it to next week's and get back us?