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Ok so dropped my car in at AUDI yesterday and while doing the brake fluid change they have sheared off the bleed nipple. They have tried to get it out and not snapped an easy out tool in it.
I appreciate that these things happen but its 1500 quid for a new caliper (and a few weeks) so should this cost fall on me? or the garage?
Garage. Unless there's something painfully obviously wrong with the nipple or caliper that they can attribute to your abuse/misuse.
Sounds like the apprentice won't be getting a Friday cake 😉
Garage sucks up cost over a short screw error. 🙂
How old is the car? Tbh corroded bleed nipples happen on older cars, and they're a total PITA. If it's only a few years old i'd be pointing more at the garage. If it's say 10+ and hasn't ever had the fluid changed, if find it harder to blame them.
1500 for a new one is mental unless it's an RS with 6 pots or something. Have a look on www.brakeparts.co.uk and see how much you can get one from in there. I'd also look at taking to an indy as it'll be sooooooo much cheaper anyways.
If you're ok with Audi doing it then I'd definitely be pushing for a dealer goodwill contribution first, then possibly escalating to their UK call centre if you can't get it sorted amicably.
I would have thought so too but they are obviously saying not.
Garage. This is why you pay £95 and hour or whatever the going rate is .
It's a very easy job for a machine shop to remove the remaining stud of the bleed nipple and clean up the threads .
No need for a new caliper.
Just ask to see the DP if you get any grief from the service department
I think if it’s old and mega corroded then they have a point.
If it’s not old / corroded and it’s mechanic error then they should pay for it.
Either way £1500 for a caliper is mental. Even if it’s a big Brembo / AP racing type of caliper that price for one feels expensive.
This sort of thing is why I don’t use main dealers.
Full set of recon 4-pot/6-pot Porsche Brembos are usually sub £1000 with fittings for Audi platforms so £1500 for a single caliper is taking the piss.
“You bend it you mend it”. Somehow I think an Audi dealer will be able to cope with the extra outlay.
Almost impressed that they’ve managed to kill the caliper instead of getting the remains out
Is the £1500. The entire job price ? New caliper , pads , fluid , removal and replacing with brand new from Audi?
Or just the caliper?
Either way just say no . Unless you're rolling an RS6 the calipers are around £90 from a factor and that's branded from Febi or Bendix
If they really dig their heels in just ask them to remove the caliper , get a loaner for a few days and take it to a man in a shed with a pillar drill , a set of taps and a few picks . For a crisp £20 it's bread and butter for a machinist.
Tannoy# RustyNissanPrarie to the forum please #tannoy
Shearing the bleed nipple is one thing but snapping an easyout in the remaining part is entirely their screw up and on them to remedy.
Edit: no respectable machinist is going to touch that with an easyout snapped in the remaining bit so forget the £20 to drill it out option.
Its on an RS4, there the same brembos as a lambo hence the cost!
its a 2013 car with 68k on it. So well into everythings rusted to heck territory (working my way around it slowly replacing stuff)
Bleed screw snapping I'd negotiate - this could happen but I would expect them to have the tools and skills to fix. Messing up the repair and snapping the easy out is not "reasonable skill and care".
I'd still say it's their problem, if they weren't happy with the state of it when they started they should have said so. Thus why we pay dealer prices so it's not our issue when it goes wrong. Snapping the easyout compounded their error.
Be very firm about expecting it all to be put right in a reasonable time or you'll be prepared to put in a small claims action.
Have you got photos or anything writing. Make a written record of anything you have been told verbally including when and who said it.
My take would be, if it’s been serviced by them regularly to schedule, I’d want help with the costs.
If they haven’t been doing the regular maintenance, not so much.
Brembo callipers = corrosion hell. 50/50 garage and age of vehicle. I'd get it out, but it'd take me a day and the lovely paint on the calliper would probably suffer. It should be soaked in plusgas for a long time. Then some more time. Then I'd be drilling into it with my dad's ancient wolf corded drill letting the inevitability of its fate take hold at 130rpm. After that I'd have something like the tang of a broken file hammered into it to give mr mole something to grip onto. Amateurs.
What state are the pad retaining pins? I bet the paint around them looks like the surface of the moon.
100% garage should cover the full cost, you're paying for their supposed expertise.
As above, bleeders sieze into old calipers. The apprentice knows this.
If there's any doubt, they should simply have got in touch with you, in writing, to let you know that this thing may snap, are you happy to proceed?
100% the garage should resolve the issue. You pay for their expertise and experience.
They should have looked at the bleed nipple and thought hmmm that's a bit rusty, let's get some penetrating fluid on there and maybe some heat. Or turned around and told you that it could be trouble and there was a risk of it going south and asked if you wanted to continue. This is where the experience comes into play.
Then when unscrewing the nipple they should have twigged that it was a bit tight and stopped, rather than shearing it off, then breaking an easy out in there. That's where the expertise comes into play.
I'm not a mechanic but do my own maintenance. If I was doing someone else's car as a favour and broke a bleed nipple I'd be paying to fix it myself.
Out of interest was it an Audi franchised garage, Audi specialist or a random back street garage?
Obviously it's the garage's fault. But my (distant) experience of VAG is that somehow it'll be your problem. And your cost.
I hope it turns out they suck up the cost. Presumably if you've had it serviced regularly there then they could have issued an advisory on 'sticky bolts' in the past 'guv, you should replace that car ASAP as one of the bleed nipples was a little sticky'. Or, even been a bit more careful undoing it.
I'd not be surprised if in some previous VAG-enabled SNAFU they'd cross-threaded it, kept quiet, and hoped you'd have changed the car by now.
Waiting weeks for it to be fixed? That seems weird. I'd have expected these parts are just hanging around in the supply chain waiting to be shipped.
Its on an RS4, there the same brembos as a lambo hence the cost!
My millionaire boss ran a RS4 for a while - it's the only car he's got rid off because of the running costs. Bloody extortionate.
Quite common on old brake callipers, try and ask for a new calliper at cost price and go to an independent Audi service garage to get it fitted.
Personally after owning various hot Audis, I always used independent Audi garages for servicing as main dealers are not known for their expertise on old models.
I'm confused. Did they break an easy out tool in it or not? If they did they probably didn't drill it out to a suitable size before trying. Did they take the caliper of the car and do it on a pillar drill suitably clamped or did they try in situ? Bleed screws break off, with the right approach you can always get the remains out however corroded and seized.
Its on an RS4, there the same brembos as a lambo hence the cost!
Years ago I looked at a 4y/o RS6, the V10.
Checked the service pack & receipts - fully documented and there was a recent £2k bill for new discs & pads.
I walked away as I'd not long before I'd paid £100 for new front discs & pads on my Omega 3.0i MV6.
11 year old car?
50:50 and I bet they argue the toss - there may also be something in their T&C's about this stuff happening.
Bit of a tangent, but how do bleed nipples end up so stuck? Isn't brake fluid supposed to be changed every couple of years, requiring the bleed nipples to be opened? I did a caliper rebuild on my 10yo A6 recently, and the bleed nipple took a nervewracking amount of force to undo, leaving me wondering how recently it was last loosened.
As for the OP, did they contact you before botching the fix with the ez out?
Bit of a tangent, but how do bleed nipples end up so stuck?
I would imagine because they are in a dirty exposed place with loads of heat build up and subsequent cooling down.
Brake fluid should be changed regularly - at least every two years
If the nipple was stuck you never brute force it - you stop and think. You warn the owner, you use heat and penetrating fluid
Snapping an easy out in it? Wrong tool for the job compounding their error
You can get the easy out removed by a process called spark erosion. Might save the caliper
Its up to the dealer to sort this to your satisfaction. contact head office if they refuse. If no joy then letter before action and fast track( small claims) court
Sorry - but on an old car, it's just what happens. Had you tried to remove/loosen the nipple, the same would likely have happened.
Unless you can someone was heavy handed, It's your problem.
£1500 for a calliper? Really?
Sorry – but on an old car, it’s just what happens. Had you tried to remove/loosen the nipple, the same would likely have happened.
That's why you pay through the nose and take it to a garage. So it's not your problem.
I think if you have a recent record of the brake fluid being changed by the same garage (so they were the last people to touch the bleed nipple), you stand a chance of getting them to pay for it in full. Otherwise I'd be looking for a discounted caliper and pay for half the labour to fit it.
I got my independent specialist to fix a leaky gearbox for free, (a £600 repair), as they'd serviced it a year before and it was unreasonable for it to leak in that time-frame. It probably helped that I'm a repeat customer for them.
The trick in these disputes is to seem happy but firmly trying to negotiate. As soon as you seemed annoyed or start threatening Small claims, the garage know you're never coming back so they'll stick to their guns, so only go full bore as a last resort.
That's rubbish. If something is seized/broken its broken. Just taking it to a garage doesn't solve that or shift the blame.
Any good garage will tell you this.
Its on an RS4, there the same brembos as a lambo hence the cost!
In that case, suck it up and use some of the budget you normally set aside for running a car like this each year.
Certain cars are like this - my transporter of a similar age and mileage to the Audi suffers from corroded bolts underneath. Before doing anything with it I'm usually ordering replacements in the knowledge that something will snap or I'll need to get brutal removing them.
Compare that to my old Mini Clubman and my current Merc that I was underneath at the weekend replacing the springs on and every bolt is as clean as a whistle and dead easy to remove (11 plate on ~65k miles). Maybe its just a VAG thing...
The garage should pay - easy outs are made from hardened steel and shouldn't be anywhere near a stuck bolt for the very reason that you have experienced - when they snap they made the job 10x worse. They have cocked up the extraction and are now trying to get you to pay for it. Any half decent mechanic should have no problems removing seized/sheared bolts, it's standard fare for a garage - you don't just bill the customer for a whole new caliper.
You could give the chap a call (Dean) - I got refurb calipers for my Civic Type R from him - they were as good as new ones...
I read that as not snapped an easi out in the broken part. Not " and they then tried to remove it , and snapped an easi out in the broken part.
So no , a man in a machine shop would probably swerve that as the easi out will be hardened,
So the bit is likely to deflect into the caliper body.
Theres a stack of RS4s on eBay being broken, perhaps a quick email round robin to see if you can get one for a couple of hundred and chance your arm the main stealer will GW fit it for you.
thus giving you time and accessibility to carefully remove the bleed screw from the used part
I'd be strongly arguing that it's blindingly obvious it could be corroded and seized, so the garage should have tackled it accordingly and used heat / cold and penetrating fluid to loosen it once it was clear it wasn't budging with normal force.
Snapping a tool in it afterwards was just incompetence squared.
At the very least, before letting the trainee mechanic make a complete mess of it, they should have contacted you beforehand explaining the situation.
Snapping a tool in it afterwards was just incompetence squared.
Very much this. ~£100/hr for complete incompetence .
If the garage have tried to extract a bit they snapped off with an easy out (rather than giving you a better chance of a specialist removing it) without asking you first then I think they should make some contribution towards the replacement.
Although it would probably be cheaper to pickup a reconditioned caliper yourself and they should fit it for free as they’ve messed up your old one. Are they 8 pot calipers?! Looking online there seem to be quite a few that are claimed to be reconditioned for a lot less than £1500 each.
joebristolFull
I think if it’s old and mega corroded then they have a point.
Agree, if they phoned the OP and said "there;s a rick this will break, it's old and corroded, do you still want us to try"
If they just went ahead and broke it it's on them
The bleed nipple siezed on one of my calipers, the garage phoned me and said "it's siezed, if we continue it might snap and need a new caliper, do you want us to proceed?" - I said "well the pedal's gone long so it needs doing" - they tried, it snapped and I ponied up for a new (fortunately inexpensive) caliper.
If they informed and asked you it's on you, if they just waded in and broke stuff without informing you that they might it's on them.
Yep, like sobriety - a couple of years back the garage (marque indy specialist) was doing a fluid change for me while the car was in for other stuff - they called me up - "RH rear bleed screw is seized - we're not going to try and deal with it unless you really want us to". I didn't, and spent a couple of hours with pen. fluid and a blow torch at which point it wound out nicely.
Their problem to solve. Surely the right answer as soon as it won't move these days is one of those induction heater things and get it proper hot. Easyout is never, ever, the right tool IME.
Unless you can someone was heavy handed, It’s your problem.
the garage were heavy handed - they sheered it off and then broke an easy out in it.
You say ham fisted they say corroded... Still drivable right? Personally I'd remove from their grasp and sort with a specialist.
A quick Google reveals companies that will fix for about £40 up to £100 if they have to drill and helicoil.
Easyout is never, ever, the right tool IME.
Like any tool it has its uses. Used with caution it's a compliment to all the strategies mentioned by myself and others on the thread. If you have to resort to drilling it out, at some point as you increase drill size you'll see threads appear. If the drill hasn't gone straight down the middle increasing the drill size further will damage the threads and then you're looking at the added complication of a helicoil. If it's broken flush or down the hole you've got nothing to get any purchase on. At that point more heat, lube and an easy out used gently should get the remains out.
A colleague bought a RS4 recently (2014). Within a couple of weeks it was making a slight droning noise, he suspected a wheel bearing. The garage had it back under warranty, said it wasn't the wheel bearing and changed all 4 discs and the pads (under warranty). Noise was still there, took it back again. It was a wheel bearing after all.
AUDI can be absolute robbing shysters, but in my experience they are not up to the fight if you make it clear that you are not a fool and that you are not going to pay them any more than you have to. South Hereford AUDI tried to add £1,500.00 to a bill for me and it ended up being an additional £0.00 when we established that I knew as much about the job they were doing as the Service Manager. Prior to that the stench of bullshit was incredible. Mr. Service Manager was "not at the branch" when I came to collect, leaving a minion to bring me the car. Coward.
I’d be strongly arguing that it’s blindingly obvious it could be corroded and seized,
I wish. Some of the worst I've dealt with in 30+ years have looked OK. I always covered my rear, by explaining to the customer, that there was a slight chance that the nipple would shear off and require extra work, that might require a replacement caliper. Never had to replace a caliper though.
As for using an easy out . . NO! Left-hand drill bit is always the best solution. I've a drawer full of various versions and they do work on bigger bolts, all they do on small stuff is expand the bolt/nipple and force the threads in tighter.
Left hand drill bits, I didn't know they existed. Thanks for that Marko. If ever I get into messing with cars again a cobalt set will be on my shopping list.
Its an easy job for a machine shop to remove the broken nipple, they will/should cover it.
The garage were heavy handed – they sheered it off and then broke an easy out in it.
1. Shearing off a seized nipple isn't incompetence. It's really difficult to know when it's going to let go and they require surprisingly little force to shear. 2. Breaking a drill bit when deep drilling something small and steel also isn't hard to do and again, it's sometimes difficult to know when it's going to bind. Let me ask you this? When you last drilled out a bolt, did you use any fluid? What is slightly concerning is that they tried to use an Easy out for a seized bolt, not a stripped or cross threaded bolt. LHDB is what I would've used, but, IME the calliper would still have likely needed additional repair/tapping even with a LHDB. They were likely trying to avoid this as the calliper would then need to come off and the brake system would need re bleeding at yet more cost to the customer.
I still say it's just one of those things and that if it were on a cheaper car, we wouldn't really be arguing. But equally, all of this should've been explained to the customer beforehand.
It wasn't broken when it went in, they didn't contact him to say it might be an issue. It's on them, it's what they (should) have business insurance for. At the very least they should be offering a a profit and time charge free replacement solution. They appear to have charged to break it and then be looking to charge to fix it too.
shearing off anything is being heavy handed.
Let me ask you this? When you last drilled out a bolt, did you use any fluid?
I've never drilled out a bolt. I do (almost ) all of my own mechanicing and never needed to.
When you last drilled out a bolt, did you use any fluid?
When I drill anything made of metal , will always use a cutting oil or paste. WD40 specialist multi purpose cutting oil is my go to.
Trouble with most main dealer "mechanics" these days are they are mostly "technicians" with very little experience in proper engineering methods when it all goes tits up. Just remove and replace until the problem goes away 😉
Snapping a bleed nipple on old brembos happens. Its what you do next that matters, and communication with the customer.
Remove the caliper and drill out the bleed nipple (I use a milling machine). If you dont know how to do it, you take the caliper to a machine shop and pay them to remove it (especially on a £1500 caliper)
Its still fixable, but easy outs are rather hard. I have used a carbide end mill or burr at max rpm and really slow feed. EDM is a good option. I might also try TIG on the easy out.
My take is that I would pay what it would have cost to fix the snapped nipple using their approved method and to their usual standards but I will not pay to rectify their mistake.
If their spanner had slipped while trying to extract it and destroyed the front wing and headlamp, would they have charged you for their replacement?
Why is this even a discussion
The garage has broken it. It wasn't broken when you took it in. It's their problem to solve.
Shearing off a seized nipple isn’t incompetence. It’s really difficult to know when it’s going to let go and they require surprisingly little force to shear.
It's what, M7, M8 or M10? It should take a hell of a force to shear one, certainly more than you're likely to put through an 8 or 10mm spanner.
That's why you start easy, if you can't shift it with the short tool then it's time to take a step back.
This is a game of two halves IMO
Breaking it off in the first place almost certainly means it was seized when you took it to them, ie it was already knackered, it just wasn't broken but that's like having already crashed but not yet having landed. Possibly they could have done more to extract it safely but equally, it's entirely possible they did all they could or all that was reasonable and it still broke. And you can't prove whether they did or didn't. So I think that's basically straightfoward, the problem isn't really that it broke, the problem was that it was seized enough to break, they just happened to be the people who found it. (whoever last worked on the car might be part responsible but that's a losing battle)
But the easy-out has made it worse and that's on them. That's amateur hour imo, especially on an expensive part. Should have got it off the car at that point and approached it properly. Having said all <that> I don't agree at all that it's automatically unfixable at that point, sure the hardened tip is now a total bastard to handle but it can often be handled. Though here you really need to see it to judge- is it going to be realistic to weld a bolt on, frinstance, or, how much easyout is still stuck in there, is going to make a big difference.
So that's the exact line i'd be taking with them "I understand that things break especially on cars of this age, the problem is not that it broke, it's how you've responded to that".
Nortthwind - the garage should have said to the owner that it was seized and there was a risk of sheering it before brute forcing it. If the owner then agreed to them attempting the removal That would then reduce the liability. to just go ahead and brute force it without warning and then compounding it by breaking an easy out in it - just sheer incompetence and they are liable for fixing it. Using an easy out shows their lack of skills.
Yeh, I agree, it snapping is one thing, and arguably not thier fault, but making it worse with what sounds like a failed botch IS on them.
That's the angle I'd take.
New free caliper, or they have the existing one machined properly to rescue it, at thier expence.
If I took my car into an actual main dealer, and something went awry, then it’s their responsibility to sort it out, not mine - I’m paying them to know exactly what they are doing.
Although, my experience of taking Audis to a main dealership for recall work, parking it and telling them where I’d parked it, in a marked spot opposite the workshop entrance, then having them deny actually having received the car, when we phoned to ask how it was going, which meant me having to drive down to Salisbury to sort it out. After another couple of our logistics staff had driven down, and I’d told them where I’d parked it.
I arrived, told them who I was, having already seen the car exactly where I had parked it, and was told to go and sit down, to wait for a member of staff to come down to see me.
I saw a bloke come into the reception desk, speak to the receptionist, then disappear out the door, in the opposite direction to where I’d left the car. After a while, he came back in, spoke to the receptionist, then disappeared again. The receptionist looked at me, still sitting there, then the bloke came back and spoke to the receptionist, who pointed to me, so he wandered over, and said they had no record of the car. Now, this was the bloke who had accompanied me to check the car over, with a check-list, when I dropped it off, so we went outside, and he started to turn left out the door, so I said, “no, it’s not there, it’s over there”, pointing to the car, “it’s right there!”
I would have done a facepalm, the sheer incompetence I was seeing in front of me was breathtaking. They had a number of RS3, RS4’s parked up and in the showroom, and honestly, I wouldn’t dream of taking a car to be worked on or serviced by them, just unbelievably poor service.
I mean It's not a £100 Pagid caliper from ECP where you might just shrug your shoulders and just bang a new one on, it's a £1500 part from what sounds like an official dealer, they should know better.
It’s what, M7, M8 or M10? It should take a hell of a force to shear one,
Unless, of course, it were hollow.
All this 'I've never sheared a bolt' stuff - ever worked on a 90s Japanese car? Once things start corroding (like a steel thing to an aluminium thing -they never get corroded together on bikes, do they? 😉 ) you can have a hell of a time getting them apart.
submarined - I am obsessive about this sort of thing. Any new bike I have had is stripped and every thread given the appropriate stuff - thread lock, grease or copaslip. Even my Shand was stripped and got the treatment tho actually it did not need it
I have not worked on Japanese cars but have done on old jap bikes. Bolt is stuck - thinking about getting the big spanner out? Stop and think
I bust a couple of bolts when a kid yes by overtightening them -0 the actual question was about drilling them out. Never had to do that
find a stuck bolt? If it does not come out with a reasonable amount of force then its penetrating oil leave and try again. Still not budging - heat and more penetrating oil. I have never had this fail apart from an exhaust stud on my BMW - and once the head broke off and the tension was off then it came out OK
If I did snap one of flush it would be off to my local machine shop / engineers to sort out
I've recently serviced the Brembo 6pot 17z (£450) calipers on my near 20 year old Porsche.
Aluminium and steel? Plenty of localised MAPP heat followed by Würth Rost Off. A few heat/cool cycles followed by a final heating to expand the aluminium (coefficient of expansion works in your favour with this one) and they came out okay.
New nipples, ceramic anti seize, and I apply a little waxoyl to the nipple/caliper interface.
Snapping a stud extractor? As mentioned above, EDM or possibly cobalt and a bollocking/piss taking for the apprentice.
https://ibb.co/DkJKWqZ
https://ibb.co/GpSDwQj
RNP - a main dealer will never do that with a painted calliper on a customers car. Most main dealers for the major German marks are now £120-£150/h + VAT. So the labour costs normally outstrip the parts cost very quickly. Perhaps not in this case (but then I don’t know the cost price of this part). But even with this, stripping, heating, disassembling, repainting, and reassembling and releasing will be what? 4-5h? So the best part of £800-£1000 on Labour. I was recently quoted £3400 to do the brake lines on my 21y old BMW touring. The parts are £212.
Years ago I was at a scrap yard, they had a lad cleaning up various bits and bobs - part of his job was to glue the stick welder electrode onto snapped fasteners, and use the electrode as a handle to wind them out. The whole process took him less than a minute each time. Wouldn't that work even with a hardened easy out included?
So a call from the garage. The service dept have been quite proactive and im impressed tbh. Taken the caliper to a local engineering firm and will pick it up on monday. Then see what the damage is.
part of his job was to glue the stick welder electrode onto snapped fasteners, and use the electrode as a handle to wind them out
??
Stick welder electrodes are feeble ...
Good timing from Mustie!
You need Nipple Therapy... http://www.fraserbrowneng.co.uk/index.php?c=nipple-therapy-kit
How does a LHD drill bit help? Is it the idea that the increasing friction from the bit will help undo the seized bolt as the middle is cut out?
3 way benefit IME: 1) As you go to drill out a stuck bolt, it can (sometimes) extract the bolt. 2) As you get closer to the thread, it’s less likely to follow the tread and damage it further, 3) As you get closer to the thread it can start to extract bits of material from the existing bolt.
The LHD will heat up the part, start to drill into it then will bite and wind the part out.