[Closed] Gaddafi's death

Im told that you have to imagine being repressed and persecuted and tortured for a lifetime before you can understand why the reactions are always so barbaric.
Im also told that as a comfy westerner ill never understand.
Apparently, this is the wrong forum too..

No.

However, I was disturbed to see the pictures of the victims his troops burned alive in warehouses a couple of weeks ago.

I was disturbed to see pictures of the civilians he has tortured and murdered.

I was disturbed to see the crying faces of the children whose mother and fathers he murdered.

I agree.

Can't say I 'like' seeing photos of dead people, no matter if they were evil bastards.

Must admit I did check out the video of Saddam's trapdoor exit shortly after though. Never felt compelled to see it before. Was pretty weird. And not sure it should be available on t' interspace.

its the video of him alive before hand that i found more disturbing

whatever his crimes, it wouldve been better for him to face a trial and potential execution rather than being shot, stripped, dragged behind a truck and then killed (which is i gather what happened)

edit i think he was stripped after death

Have watched the BBC News and Channel 4 and have to say the images broadcast were gruesome and IMO really not necessary. Yes, there were warnings and yes there is an off button but how have we got to the point where this is somehow acceptable for broadcast at 6 or 7pm and furthermore, can the story not be told without using such images?

An inglorious and brutal end to an inglorious and brutal man

You usually get what's coming to you, don't you?

Is the Hague the war crimes/genocide court?

He treated people like they were animals and as such is it surprising he also was treated like an animal in the end?.

Enjoy a good lynching do you digger?

I thought it perhaps shouldn't have been splashed on the front page of the news sites I saw it on (including the BBC, who really should know better). Prompted some rapid window-shutting when my 3 year old was around, that did. I know we've made ourselves a rather nasty little world to live in, but I'm doing my damndest to keep that from him for as long as possible.

bigbloke - Member

He treated people like they were animals

Really? a country with a low mortality rate, good food security, good medical care etc - perhaps one of the most prosperous and stable counties in Africa until we backed one side in a civil war and ****ed over another country to go with our sucess in Afghanistand an Iraq

Try looking to charles taylors Liberia or amins uganda...............

Now if only they'd do this to the war criminals of Iraq and Afghanistan... George Bush and Tony Blair

No.

However, I was disturbed to see the pictures of the victims his troops burned alive in warehouses a couple of weeks ago.

I was disturbed to see pictures of the civilians he has tortured and murdered.

I was disturbed to see the crying faces of the children whose mother and fathers he murdered.

Are you equally disturbed to see the pictures of civilians killed by western troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Etc...

Whilst I can understand the delight of millions who hated Gaddafi, who was undoubtedly a nasty bastard, what do you think of Iraqis who parade with the dead bodies of US soldiers, who they see as murderous scum in just the same way?

And what if any British people were to want to see the same happen to David Cameron, or Tony Blair, etc?

Not directed to you personally btw, simply general questions.

I don't really think that dragging a battered corpse around screaming like madmen lends anyone any dignity. And as for those shouting 'Allah hu Akbar', well, treating the dead body of a fellow Muslim in such a manner isn't going to mark you out as a respectable follower of Islam.

jivehoneyjive - Member

Now if only they'd do this to the war criminals of Iraq and Afghanistan... George Bush and Tony Blair

Even that evil prick Donald Rumsfeld should have the benefit of trial and jail. I've never fancied myself a bleeding heart, but the notion of killing someone, then plastering their image all over the public domain, is just terrible.

I'd be happy to put Gordon Browns head on a stake and parade it around a bit if you'd like me to and can arrange an opportunity..

If you could chuck Mandelson and Blair in for good measure I might even do it for free..

perhaps one of the most prosperous and stable counties in Africa

There were warnings given on the news before the images were broadcast, you could have chosen not to look.

aracer - Member

perhaps one of the most prosperous and stable counties in Africa

How many of those less prosperous have huge oil reserves?

Nigeria?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nigeria

yeah - it's a real basket case

Elfinsafety - Member

And what if any British people were to want to see the same happen to David Cameron, or Tony Blair, etc?

Aren't you one of those polishing up your dancing shoes in anticipation of a certain ex PMs death ??

To glorify or rejoice in the death of another human being is (IMO) never a justifiable position 🙁

allthepies - Member

There were warnings given on the news before the images were broadcast, you could have chosen not to look.

Nonsense. First of all, I don't have a tv, so there were no warnings. I saw the still pictures on Google News, which - as you know - trawls the world's news sources and simply indexes the headlines.

As it was, I simply went to GN, and was faced with a half-dozen images staring back at me, from such sources as the BBC and the Independent.

I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the new Libyan regime doesn't care much more about justice than the old one.

In which case any democracy they might hope to create will be built on foundations of sand.

Really? a country with a low mortality rate, good food security, good medical care etc - perhaps one of the most prosperous and stable counties in Africa until we backed one side in a civil war and **** over another country to go with our sucess in Afghanistand an Iraq

Stability backed up by ruthless crushing of all dissent, though. A fair trial would have been nicer, but I can't say I'm particularly concerned that he's dead.

To think hell never be called to account for farting while John Simpson interviewed him. ****ing outrageous.

Advanced civilization seems to mean we have to be nice to everyone no matter what they've done. You know, human rights.

Enjoy a good lynching do you digger?

Think you should re-read my post as you've clearly missed the point.

Not that I can see. You seem think its acceptable that he was lynched. any violent death is wrong.

Well TJ, if I enjoyed a "good lynching" as you have suggested I would hardly be disturbed by pictures of the remains of people having been burned alive, other victims who had tortured/murdered or by their children who have lost their fathers & mothers would I?

Useful to apply logic before posting sometimes.

ut you are not disturbed by seeing a man killed by a mob? OK a bit OTT from me but so was your post. You certainly seemed to be relishing his violent death

any trial would have been a farce and would have turned him into a cartoon rather than the evil tyrant that he is/ was.
in the circumstances, I think he had a fair trial.

Do you know, given all the available options I'd rather be dictated to by the Americans, Blair, Cameron or even Thatcher as to what my life might be like rather than Gadaffi or Hussein quite honestly? So while I share some qualms about what has gone on I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to feign indignation whilst continuing to enjoy a way of life that is a function of it.

If we were talking about this happening to a nice bloke it might be different...

BUT THIS GEEZER WAS NOT A NICE BLOKE

It isn't often in this poxy world that something approaching justice happens....the fact that it happened in a poxy way lends it symmetry...

go with the flow people

That is not gruesome at all.

They should put him to trial then ... hang, drawn and quarter (live TV or pay per view).

The gruesome thing to watch is the little girl in China that got ran over by two vans. That's gruesome considering 18 people walked passed her without giving any concern. A land with no heart. That 18 people should be hang,drawn and quarter to free up space.

🙄

Blair and Cameron have killed more people than Gaddafi. Or don't they count if they are in far away countries? as for Bush and Rumsfeldt

There are far worse people that Gadaffi around.

TandemJeremy - Member

Blair and Cameron have killed more people than Gaddafi. Or don't they count if they are in far away countries? as for Bush and Rumsfeldt

There are far worse people that Gadaffi around.

Hang, drawn and quarter the lot ... live or pay per view TV.

🙄

consistency is good I guess chewkw 🙂

Aren't you one of those polishing up your dancing shoes in anticipation of a certain ex PMs death ??

Yep. What of it?

To glorify or rejoice in the death of another human being is (IMO) never a justifiable position

What if someone's tortured/raped someone, and then dies/is killed? Shoon't their victim rejoice in the fact that their attacker can no longer harm them?

Jeeze, there's people I've known who'v met an untimely end. I certainly wasn't sorry to see them go.

Do you know, given all the available options I'd rather be dictated to by the Americans, Blair, Cameron or even Thatcher as to what my life might be like rather than Gadaffi or Hussein quite honestly? So while I share some qualms about what has gone on I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to feign indignation whilst continuing to enjoy a way of life that is a function of it.

Yeah, but then you enjoy the luxury of not living in a country where the actions/orders of such aforementioned tyrants have a detrimental affect on your way of life.

Yeah, but then you enjoy the luxury of not living in a country where the actions/orders of such aforementioned tyrants have a detrimental affect on your way of life.

Other than screwing my pension, getting my country in debt that my kids will still be paying off, destroying the NHS and free University education etc etc etc.

It all depends on the culture you're used to, no they've not attached electodes to my balls, have they had a detrimental effect on MY life? yes

But you're not afraid to tell them though! 🙂

Aye, but equally they don't listen

I was surprised to see those sorts of images on TV at dinner time, yes. No offended as such but I guess if I'd have had younger kids watching it would have been a bit difficult.

Apart from that, dead, alive, we all look the same.

Other than screwing my pension, getting my country in debt that my kids will still be paying off, destroying the NHS and free University education etc etc etc.

It all depends on the culture you're used to, no they've not attached electodes to my balls, have they had a detrimental effect on MY life? yes

Obviously I meant.. oh you know what I meant it's late and I'm tired. 😐

nato - the hero. bombed the water supply in Libia!!!! which is a war crime yeah. under international law. WE payed for that!!??!!??!!!? bunch of ****s after oil if you ask me. i thought our heroic troops were supposed to defend our land not kill civilians for cheap oil so our masters could make a profit while claiming a world recession. OPEN YOUR EYES

Really? a country with a low mortality rate, good food security, good medical care etc - perhaps one of the most prosperous and stable counties in Africa until we backed one side in a civil war and **** over another country to go with our sucess in Afghanistand an Iraq

I'm stunned that you seem to be defending him. Yes they may have enjoyed all those things but at what price?

Coyote - just trying to put it in context. We have ruined another country for the sake of oil supplies. There are far worse leaders in Africa and the rest of the world. Our own governments are responsible for far more deaths, disease and misery than Gadaffi ever was.

I agree that there are [b]equally as bad[/b] leaders in the world but please don't try and point out the good points of Gadhaffi. He had none.

I took no pleasure in seeing what happened to him neither do I feel any sadness at his death.

Gaddaffi was not as bad as many. He has been demonised by the west for decades.

Gaddaffi was not as bad as many

but he insisted on exporting his 'badness' far too much

TJ

You seem to be conveniently forgetting other aspects of his rule, including terrorism, in your self-righteous defence of his right to a fair trial. Is it just any excuse to have a pop at the nasty oil obsessed West? IMO he removed any right to fair and humanitarian treatment by his own acts and when he finally received 'justice', it was a damn sight quicker and more humane than many of his victims.

I'm sure they won't be shedding many tears in Lockerbie.

What you're also ignoring, TJ, is that in none of those countries with a leader worse than Gaddafi (though I'd love to see your justification for why he's so much better than other possible candidates) has there been a popular uprising which looked capable of overthrowing said leader. Count how many ground troops we've put in for the sake of those precious oil supplies. Check out the popular support for the support we have provided.

Woody - lockerbie was nothing to do with Libya. All I am attempting to do is put it in context.

aracer - really? popular uprising? You mean civil war. without air support from nato it would never have got anywhere. ~Do you really believe that? Do you really believe its nothing to do with oil?

How about Syria? Chechnya?

Elfinsafety - Member

............. :tumbleweed: ...................

🙄

uplink - Member

Gaddaffi was not as bad as many

but he insisted on exporting his 'badness' far too much

Evidence?

How about Putin ordering murders on the streets of London?

TandemJeremy - Member
Gaddaffi was not as bad as many. He has been demonised by the west for decades.

Demonised whilst being courted for trade opportunities etc.
The 'usual story' isn't it - suck up to crooked regimes until they become too much of a liability, then overthrow them and help rebuild their shattered society.
Hoorah for western democratic values......

How about Saudi Arabia? Imprisonment without trial, human rights abuses, funding global terrorism.

Gaddaffi was not as bad as many.

whilst we turn a blind eye to the policies of the suadis, ****stan or Israel as they are por western...tbh we dont care about countries ethics/human rights etc if their foreign policy matches our aims.....given this we are no position to preach to the world about morality. We dont really care about democracy abroad we care about access to their oil and the government being compliant

popular uprising? You mean civil war. without air support from nato it would never have got anywhere

I certainly never claimed it would have succeeded without air support - the question is, which other country with a worse leader has a popular uprising which would succeed with air support?

I certainly never claimed it would have succeeded without air support - the question is, which other country with a worse leader has a popular uprising which would succeed with air support?

Egypt. Romania, Poland,

I support truth and peace - so in Libya neither side. I do not believe that we should be fighting there at all. Our intervention has cost many many lives

whilst we turn a blind eye to the policies of the suadis, ****stan or Israel as they are por western

Like most of the threads on here this will just spiral around until it is closed. My twopenneth...

As a comfy westerner far removed from any oppression or brutality at the hands of a dictator, I will never experience the pure emotion flowing through many of the Libyan peoples veins. The ever-prevailing emotions of complete and utter devastation and hatred are, for many hard to control under these circumstances, and as has been seen before on many occasions, explodes out into acts that in our eyes are horrific, unjust and should not be allowed to happen.

As an advocate of the preservation of life and a firm non-advocate of a life with a life mentality, Gaddafi should have been treated in the same manner as any other criminal and captured and given a fair trial under the law of the land.

Is Libya better off without Gaddafi? - Yes
Was he a brutal dictator responsible for mass murder - Yes
Should he have been treated in the manner yesterday - No, no living being should, and using the excuse of he deserved it because its how he treated others only results in lowering yourself to his level.

his death was an accident after all

Conflicting reports have emerged about how exactly Gaddafi died. He was captured after a Nato air strike hit his convoy as it tried to break away from the siege of his hometown.

"I am going to read to you a report by the forensic doctor who examined Gaddafi," Mahmoud Jibril told a news conference in the capital, Tripoli.

"It said: 'Gaddafi was taken out of a sewage pipe … he didn't show any resistance. When we started moving him he was hit by a bullet in his right arm and when they put him in a truck he did not have any other injuries.'"'When the car was moving it was caught in crossfire between the revolutionaries and Gaddafi forces in which he was hit by a bullet in the head.'"

"The forensic doctor could not tell if it came from the revolutionaries or from Gaddafi's forces," Jibril said.

Gaddafi had been alive when he was taken from Sirte but died a few minutes before reaching hospital, the prime minister said.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/gaddafi-killed-by-crossfire-libya ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/gaddafi-killed-by-crossfire-libya[/url]

The true crime here is that of the French government whos policies seemed to have slipped under the radar. A fierce outcry about the way the English and Americans handled the conflict in Iraq and outspoken statement about it being about the oil (which it was), to then turn to sudden panic when Libya is on the cards (where they get the majority of their oil from) and then leading the way on the campaign to oust Gaddafi and secure the oil supply. Biggest bunch of whinging hypocrits.

An accident!

Like falling down the stairs when under arrest?

Egypt. Romania, Poland,

Our intervention has cost many many lives

Did anyone else find the photo of Gaddafi in death quite disturbing?

It makes me think of the days when executed people's heads were put on pikes for all to see.

It would be nice if the human race could move beyond turning corpses into trophies.

back to the OP briefly...
I thought showing the graphic images of his bloodied corpse at 3.20 in the afternoon on the news channels was wrong. At that point they were unconfirmed reports of his death so could have been anyone.
I think some of the images used this morning are in poor taste as well.
It is the modern equivalent to heads on spikes....

Yes aracer you are. all three of those countries had genuine popular uprisings that removed dictators without significant bloodshed and without needed air support from us.

Many less would have died IMO without our intervention as the civil war would not have lasted 6 months plus. I actually doubt it would have started.

all three of those countries had genuine popular uprisings that removed dictators without significant bloodshed and without needed air support from us.

I actually doubt it would have started.

Yes SaxonRider, I found the pictures of Gaddafi's death very disturbing for many reasons. The pictures themselves were disturbing simply due to the content (a dead, dying human being) and the context (something akin to a mob - I need to find a less emotive word, but cant). They are also disturbing at the personal level as I feel a conflict between a strange complusion to look at them but than an equal revulsion at having done so.

Billy Brag made a good point on BBC's QT last week when he drew the important distinction between human rights and civil rights. We can and should take civil rights away from guilty people. However, the mark of a civilised society is its ability to honour humna rights, even when it might appall us to do so. So it is disturbing to think that what happened yesterday may simply have been an example of summary execution. But then again, as others have pointed out, is that merely because we are looking at events through a western perspective that fails to understand the culture of the Arab world?

They are also disturbing as I find myself agreeing with TJ on certain points (the photos, the intervention in Libya and the hypocricy of foreign policy) and yet appalled at the basis that he uses for his arguments (nothing new there!!). I think he is overstepping the mark by extending his anti-establishment views to act as an apologist for Gaddafi and to ignoring his responsibility for attrocities such as Lockerbie, PC Yvonne Feltcher, the use of semtex.

Finally, regarding the UK's involvement. This comes back to a the core question in any debate on justice - the consequentialist versus categorical argument. It is true that the consequences of not intervening would have been awful for the people of Benghazi and elsewhere. But equally there are categorical arguments against killing people, intervening in other states, consistency of policy etc.

Perhaps Jacob Rees-Mogg summed it up best last night (BBC QT again). We were arguably right to have intervened in Libya on consequential and legal grounds but this should not be used as an excuse to intervene extensively in other nations. Cameron should avoid playing the role of a global policeman, however tempting this may be.

No, no living being should, and using the excuse of he deserved it because its how he treated others only results in lowering yourself to his level.

There are thousands of entirely blameless people who die a hideous death every day, so there will not any hand ringing from me for someone with Gaddafi's history.

TJ - Member

Woody - lockerbie was nothing to do with Libya.

Indeed Woody.

Start with this - Jim Swires knows more about this than anyone else

http://www.lockerbietruth.com/

All the private eye stuff is not on line unfortuatly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-for-the-truth-look-to-tehran-and-damascus-ndash-not-tripoli-1775813.html

Many less would have died IMO without our intervention as the civil war would not have lasted 6 months plus

Yes it was heading for a swift and bloody conclusion in Benghazi, where Gaddafis thugs were already shelling the suburbs.

. I actually doubt it would have started.

Are there any lengths you will not go to to construct an argument? Time traveling now are we?

Intereresting that the usual suspects take the opportunity to attach a rant about "Bush and Blair" to Gaddafi's death without mentioning CallMeDave in the same breath.

Successful war with minimal casualties and the good guys won this time, then?

Yeah the 'good guys' won.....

“In Tripoli, we are seeing the same pattern in recent days that we saw earlier in the east,” said Diana Eltahawy, Libya researcher for Amnesty International. She described a record of abuse, torture and the extrajudicial killing of captured pro-Gaddafi fighters that has followed the rebels from east to west as they have taken over the country.

In the wreckage of a Tripoli fire station and field hospital on Friday, five fighters loyal to Gaddafi lay in agony and blood, apparently left to die by their vanquishers. They had been without food, water or medical attention for two days....

A few minutes’ drive from the fire station, at least 15 bodies, most of them Gaddafi’s black African supporters, lay rotting in the sun at a traffic junction outside his Bab al-Aziziyah complex. Several of the dead wore green pieces of cloth wrapped around their wrists to signal loyalty to the Gaddafi regime.

The men may have died during Tuesday’s battle for Bab al-Aziziyah, and several were wearing military fatigues. But not all of them looked like ordinary battlefield deaths. Two dead men lay face down on the grass, their hands bound behind their backs with plastic cuffs.

[b]The worst treatment of Gaddafi loyalists appeared to be reserved for anyone with black skin, whether they hailed from southern Libya or from other African countries. Darker-skinned prisoners were not getting the same level of medical care in a hospital in rebel-held Zawiyah as lighter-skinned Arab Libyans, Eltahawy said.

Rebels say Gaddafi employed gunmen from sub-Saharan Africa to shore up his army against his own people, and those fighters have elicited intense enmity from Libyans. But many of the detainees in Zawiyah told Amnesty International they were merely migrant workers “taken at gunpoint from their homes, workplaces and the street on account of their skin color,” Eltahawy said.[/b]

From the Washington Post.

The rebels humane treatment of Gaddafi also shows their commitment to human rights and democracy - so glad they've replaced the evil dictator.

Perhaps Jacob Rees-Mogg summed it up best last night (BBC QT again). We were arguably right to have intervened in Libya on consequential and legal grounds but this should not be used as an excuse to intervene extensively in other nations. Cameron should avoid playing the role of a global policeman, however tempting this may be.

This

I wasnt keen on us yet again being involved in a conflict in an Arab country but it has worked out as well as anyone could reasonably hoped.....so far.

TJ will be along in a minute to tell us all what a disaster everything is going to be, he KNOWS you know. According to him we are all being seduced by propoganda, those Libyans we see on the BBC are just some dangerous minority and not to be trusted. It's pitiful.

Lets hope for the best for Libya and the rest of our near neighbours in North Africa.

TJ

Unfortunately it will take more than, for want of a better word, a conspiracy theory site to convince me one way or the other. It's hardly offering indisputable proof. You'll be telling me next that Iran were [b]definitely[/b] responsible 🙄

Your belief and evidence mantra is rather selective, is it not?

McBoo - read the post above yours for a bit of the reality.

A conspiracy theory site? do you know who Jim Swires is?