[Closed] Further to the debt thread...

Sounds like your wife is keen for you to "take her to Centre Parcs". 😉

Congratulations. 😀

in the last six years we have only had two overseas holidays

That is a First World problem of the highest order!

How much did you spend on that!

It does amaze me when I see people living in fairly "average" homes and driving new Range Rover Sports and the like.

I guess some people just have different priorities.

Some people are just not great with money and/or just spend everything they earn, and more.

There's a guy I know of who worked for an engineering company who went bust/folded, a couple of times, he's got back on his feet seemingly, but is know all over instagram and facebook posting photos of his new rally car, new workshop being built, ordering a new range rover etc.

2 years ago he was bang on his arse. Just seems ridiculous to me.

They probably just earn more than you!

"They probably just earn more than you!"

I like to think this as i would hate to see people i know out on their arse.

Its easier to ignore and just live my life to my view point.

How much did you spend on that!

Kind of... this.

I have a large family and a modest income. We live in a modest house with two vehicles. Both vehicles are worth about the same as my commuter bike which I bought on sale four years ago.

We have gone to different places on the Continent pretty almost every year for the last 10, and explored some wonderful places.

Funny enough, Mrs SR and I see these as quite frugal holidays, as we camp, cook our own food (for the most part... We do try to eat locally as well, but find we can do this by buying local groceries as well.), and get most of our adventure from walking and trying to speak the local language. To make all this happen, we also save some money each month over the course of the year. Our kids, however, think we're rich because we 'go to the Continent all the time'. 😀

I know where you're coming from OP. I look at people and wonder the same. Bear in mind, potentially there's people looking at you, wondering how you can afford such a nice house. I reckon there's a lot of people with either inheritences or vast debt. Me, I earn really quite well, but due to bad (in hind sight) life choices, I rent a small house for me and my two young boys in a quiet but not particularly well thought of part of the country, with no real debt but no assets or savings to speak of either. It's hard not to wonder how other people afford what they do sometimes. I think luck of the draw plays a large part. Ah well. at least I've got my health...

I drive a car i bought off ebay for £800, i could easily be driving a £50k motor if i so chose, but i'm a bit smarter than that.
The years of being frugal has enabled me and the wifey to retire 15 years early, which begins January next year. 😀
I know a few people who will have to work till they drop.

Johndoh - I'm the same, although both my wife and I are keen not to get into debt other than our mortgage as we had a rough (ish - nothing too severe) time of it a few years ago due to moves and job losses.

One does feel pressure to go abroad for a holiday each year (we've never taken our children abroad, for a number of reasons including cost) and I think the most difficult thing is the feeling that it's "unfair" that others are outwardly living the high life when you're being very careful, either to get back on an even keel, or so as not to have the burden of debt.

But as said above, people just have different priorities, and some people's priority is to have a good time versus not get into debt.

(Reading that back I sound a bit sanctimonious and don't meant to. Everyone has a choice about what they spend their money on, and if they want to borrow more and are able to, then that's fine with me too.)

ho we know aren't earning big money in high-powered jobs

This really is the rub isn't it.

"keeping up with the Joneses" is a big part of British culture, it's based on competitiveness "I work in the bank and I've got an assistant - *must* earn more than him, he works for a super market - they must be up to their neck in debt".

10 years ago this could have been true - in the mid 2000s lots of people lost their minds and completely lost the connection between income and expenditure and believed in a sort of financial alchemy where if you were "clever" with money you could have a lifestyle well beyond your means, forever - this, and this alone with the reason for the late 2000s crash, not Labour, not American Sub Prime, not RBS sure, they all happened, but they were the straw that broke the camels back - the crash was the inevitable bust at the end of a very long boom - we got too good at prolonging the boom period, but I'm going off track.

Since the crash the bank have been forced to take a good look at people income and expenditure and prove people can afford to borrow - it doesn't matter if you've got a perfect credit history, if you're income isn't great enough to cover your existing borrowings and a decent buffer for living expenses you can't borrow any more.

Do you truly know their income, really and truthfully? Most people will NEVER tell you what they really earn, they'd tell you what they like to get up to in the bedroom before they'll show you a P60 - they may have income from other sources, they might have inherited some money, they might be incredibly careful what they spend on - hell, most people will peel off £70 a month for sky, £45 for the latest iphone, £60 for the gym they never go to, £15 for the netflix they've forgotten the password for, £1000 at Christmas for the crap the kids won't appreciate, some people think a £10k kitchen on the never-never is a "good investment", some people won't do any of those things because they prefer to spend it on Holidays or Cars, or Hairdos.

But perhaps, really, they've been lucky, worked very hard or maybe both and they just earn lots of money doing something that perhaps doesn't have the kudos of other jobs and you've haven't done as well in life as them - that's often the hardest thing to admit - the school playground is a tough place for grownups.

Interesting comments so far - perhaps we are lucky (I know we are) to have had two foreign holidays in the last 6 years as it is more than lots of people can ever afford, but we want our little girls to have lots of different experiences as they grow up (they are 7 this year) and spending time in different places is one of the things we like to be able to do. We do also have a load of camping equipment (bought dirt cheap off Ebay) so they understand holidays aren't all just 2 weeks of eating ice creams by the pool in the sunshine - they also have to go paddling in April in the North Sea.

I guess I am just trying to get some perspective on life as a grown up with a wife, two children & a dog (as of yesterday afternoon).

🙂

So doing well in life = earning lots of money?

OP, there are a large number of variables eg inheriting money or property, making a killing on a smart property buy.

However, there are, in my view, a large number of people up to their necks. I don't know what causes it - maybe a sense of entitlement. I'm shopping for a car at the moment and every salesman is trying to sell me PCP. One told me 85% of the vehicles he sells go on PCP.

You have to wonder if a lot of these folk are simply renting a lifestyle on credit and will have bugger all assets or savings to show for it at the end.

she constantly compares us to others in the school playground - weekends at Centre Parks, expensive hair treatments and manicures, fancy clothes, multiple holidays and of course the big houses and cars.

interesting thoughts on both threads. One question that I am working through just now - I have a nice car, which is a company car, my wife has a runaround which is fully paid for. My company car goes back end of the year as we are moving to car allowances. Do I spend the whole allowance and get a similar 'quality' car to my company car (5 series estate) on a PCP, or do I save a chunk every month and get an Octavia Estate ?

Head says latter, heart says former. Kids want an X3/Disco Sport to maintain the status with the neigbours who are all Mercs/BMW etc. Sadly, I can see their point 😳

Does it matter a jot, really ???

So doing well in life = earning lots of money?

If I wasn't married, or I was a patriarch I would probably have no debt at all and treat my children like it was Dickensian times but I compromise with my wife as we are in this together 🙂

all that,and she still only sent you a half arsed valentine card .

I'm going on two foreign holidays this year :/ and one's to Center Parcs in France, I'm not really playing the STW game am I ha ha.

Les Arcs in July with my mates, shared digs, £55 each for a week and the place looks like a Palace (on the web anyway) I paid for my flight with Nectar points.

Center Parcs costs more of course, £900 we used our two months of 'free council tax' to pay a 3rd and we've got to put in about £60 a month each from now until then to pay the rest. Nectar should be back up to near enough ferry money by then, but if not it might cost me £20 to take us over the top.

I think that's pretty good value, I went on a package holiday a few years ago, about the last time it was sensible to take my Son out of school for holidays, I remember it cost £1500 and I could have cried paying it - I think last time I looked the same holiday for the 4 of us now, during school holidays would be double that, no way Jose! A week sat on my arse half asleep in the sun eating too much all-inclusive crap food and drinking god awful all-inclusive beer for the price of a car, sod that.

scandal42 - Member

So doing well in life = earning lots of money?

No, of course not, it's just a phrase.

They are not scared of debt and how one day we might not be able to service said debt, like some of us are!!

worked with people previously who took loans out just because one finished , and one guy said "i like to have a good loan out because if I die then Ive died owing and wont give it back" WTF!!

Interesting because I often have this conversation with my wife – she constantly compares us to others in the school playground - weekends at Centre Parks, expensive hair treatments and manicures, fancy clothes, multiple holidays and of course the big houses and cars.

Interesting that this initially seems to lay the issue with your wife but then...

Can anyone make me feel better about our position and relieve some of the pressure I often feel to 'keep up with the Joneses'.

I'm only a casual user of STW but the threads that stick out in recent weeks on the Chat forum all appear to be yours.

New Kitchen (not fully paid for and can't seem to resolve)
New Car (I want to buy not PCP... but may PCP)
New Dog
Shall I borrow £5k to buy the wife a ring whilst on a weekend in London.
This thread

Who's trying to keep up with who?

Good points dooosuk

Kitchen was part of a managed debt on a mortgage as part of a improving a property in need of renovating throughout.

Car - have been advised by our garage that ours will have an expensive trip to the MOT Station next time around so looking at our options.

Dog. Well, I don't see what is wrong with a family having a dog really.

The ring - the one thing I have turned over in my mind over and over and as I said on the kitchen thread, savings I had towards that went on the kitchen instead (so we didn't need to borrow as much on the mortgage). And as it happens I don't think I am doing it. After all, she only bought me a poxy Valentine's card 😉

And ironically, although my wife would happily sped more on clothes and that sort of stuff, it is her that doesn't want to take on any debt towards buying a new car.

There's a guy I know of who worked for an engineering company who went bust/folded, a couple of times, he's got back on his feet seemingly, but is know all over instagram and facebook posting photos of his new rally car, new workshop being built, ordering a new range rover etc.

2 years ago he was bang on his arse. Just seems ridiculous to me.

Fairly standard in engineering, we like our toys 🙂

Perhaps he's a contractor and sensible enough to maintain a war chest for the bad years in addition to being able to make hay whilst the sun shines? A lot do.

Quite a few of the neighbours have got rid of their car and just use car sharing schemes eg ZipCar, so I don't have any trouble keeping up with them 😉

But then Cambridge is a bit hippyish in places....

they earn more than you.

Probably.

"keeping up with the Joneses" is a big part of British culture

Pretty common throughout the world, it is just a state of mind that can afflict anyone, I know exceedingly rich people who in moments of weakness moan about their lot because they haven't made a billion like someone else in their business. There are always going to be people wealthier than you, the sooner you get comfortable with that, the richer your life will be.

she constantly compares us to others in the school playground - weekends at Centre Parks, expensive hair treatments and manicures, fancy clothes, multiple holidays and of course the big houses and cars.

she maybe needs to find something else to worry about.

There are always going to be people wealthier than you, the sooner you get comfortable with that, the richer your life will be.

I'm a hairy lefty complete with beard.

And even I don't fall for this crap!

Money might not be worth the extra effort required to earn more of it, but the fact that money makes like easier/happier/'betterer' is pretty undeniable.

Yes, there is probably quite a few cases of lottery winners being unhappy and getting divorced etc. But that's just dicks with money. Rule 1: Don't be a dick, rule 2 isn't "don't have money".

You have to wonder if a lot of these folk are simply renting a lifestyle on credit and will have bugger all assets or savings to show for it at the end.

No pockets in shrouds, what exactly is the point of dying in a house that you own with a Passat on the driveway?

It's like that thread last week about the siblings who couldn't agree to sell their mums house to fund her care home. **** off, my kids will get nothing, if there's any spare money left in my home when I'm 80/90/100 it's going to that extra special care home with the pretty nurses and the happy ending!

round here there';s still a lot of oil, fishing and farming money. quite a lot of flash cars, certainly newish.
We've been fortunate to have cash in the bank which doesn't get spent much, have only moved house a handful of times (this is only my third house and I'm 50+) and cars - after spunking quite a bit when younger, were known for having one of the oldest cars in the neighbourhood - now updated. But gizmos, cars, holidays aren't top priority and never were really.

But I suspect a lot of folk we know have multiple or large incomes. I'm not (but then you wouldn't be) aware of folk close to being on their arse..

footflaps - Member
Quite a few of the neighbours have got rid of their car and just use car sharing schemes eg ZipCar, so I don't have any trouble keeping up with them

But then Cambridge is a bit hippyish in places....

Similar here in our Guardian-reading, latte-sipping, VW Touran/town-bike-driving corner of Bristol.

I think that quite a few people around here go to the effort of appearing to be not keeping up with the Jones'... shabby chic, second hand / charity shop buying etc; flash new cars and visible displays of wealth are definitely frowned upon.

And even I don't fall for this crap!

There is a difference between saying money makes life easier and saying don't worry what other people have - I only believe the latter.

A friend's son came home the other day and asked his mother whether they were poor because most of his friends' families have ski chalets - worry about the absolute not the relative.

flash new cars and visible displays of wealth are definitely frowned upon.

Yep. I quite like living somewhere like that!

One of my favourite topics to ponder, I have a collection of friends from school who I am still in touch with, and there's a range of incomes and lifestyles around us, but with no real competition about it.

I often look around the roads at car and wonder how people finance them - my car is 13 years old and cost me £3k to buy 3 or 4 years ago (it's costs money to maintain, but not excessive and I really like it so don't begrudge this).

My wife has been on and off working for the last year or 18 months as she wanted to explore working for herself, which she's done ok out of but not well enough to live on. But we are lucky in that my salary covers bills and life and luxuries still.

We could be better off, have a newer car, have fewer holidays, be more organised with our finances, but I enjoy what I earn and if I'm honest I actually enjoy the hassle I go through earning it, I'm lucky enough to be good at it and to be pretty well rewarded for it too.

she maybe needs to find something else to worry abou

Take her mind off things. Ask her (nicely) to find your trousers.

The thing I've noticed making the biggest difference is where the Bank of Mummy and Daddy gave someone a deposit/mortgage for a flat at student age. Fairly sure this makes a huge difference, I've worked with people on the same salary who in their late 20's already owned two properties, because they've made a killing on their student flat, whilst most are still saving up a deposit. The student flat I rented and had to move out of in 1999 when it was sold for 89k went for 240k a few years later, I was kicking myself!

footflaps - Member

[i]flash new cars and visible displays of wealth are definitely frowned upon.[/i]

Yep. I quite like living somewhere like that!

😆 Just owning a house in Cambridge is a visible sign of wealth....unless it was bought 20+ years ago or inherited!

A 2 bed flat costs getting on for £200k+.

For the current value of our 4 bed detached house with garage nr Peterborough, you can't even get a 2 bedroom starter home in Cambridge.

Eeek! Just had a quick look on Rightmove & a 2 bed terraced house in Cambridge is going to cost you about £360k at the lower end!!!

Most of my friends and colleagues around Cambridge have given up looking to buy a house in Cambridge as it's just way too expensive, or have had their parents give them large deposits to get a foot on the ladder.
Otherwise it's Newmarket, St Neots, Chatteris (cold shiver...), Peterborough etc.

I suspect the Cambridge hippies are getting rid of their cars because;
- they can't afford to pay the rent/mortgage & run a car
- parking in large areas of Cambridge is awful, which isn't helped by all the shared rental properties
- Cambridge City Council hate cars....

Just owning a house in Cambridge is a visible sign of wealth....unless it was bought 20+ years ago or inherited!

Quite a lot of long term residents my street, next door but 2 was born in the house and inherited it when his mother died.

I bought 18 years ago and a lot of my neighbours have been there 10+ years.

I successfully fought my wife's urges to move into bigger accommodation. Luckily, neither if us are in to fancy cars and foreign holidays. As a result, we paid off the mortgage and I retired age 50.

I guess there's a balance to be sought between a miserable present and a miserable future and that many of those in heavy debt now will struggle as they age and have to keep working to pay off todays luxuries.

Ask her (nicely) to find your trousers.

Big man.

To be honest I sometimes have reverse envy. I envy people who's lives are simple, free of the need for excess material things, free to travel, free to enjoy nature, the environment and those things in life that really don't cost that much money.

Often I look on in pity an feel sorry for those driving flashy Range Rovers, living in huge houses and the like. How hollow must they be if their confidence and sense of worth depends on these things? Think what they have sacrificed to get those? Either they've worked themselves all hours to the bone, missing out on a lot of life in the process, or they're up to the eyeballs in debt.

she constantly compares us to others in the school playground

why does she care? Seriously, get a grip, I really get wound up by this. Never understood why people care about how other people they don't know that well; live their lives.

Look after yourself and your closest, what any other ****er gets up to is none of your business.

Either they've worked themselves all hours to the bone, missing out on a lot of life in the process, or they're up to the eyeballs in debt.

And that means I pay freelancers to help with my workload at work (small business with eight employees in total including me and my business partner) so I have less 'profit' but I get more time.

why does she care? Seriously, get a grip, I really get wound up by this. Never understood why people care about how other people they don't know that well; live their lives.

Yes I agree with that sentiment too - I know people that work all the hours for all the financial rewards but for myself I would rather get home in time to read my children books, help with their homework, tuck them into bed etc - they will all too soon be all grown up

This.
I know I could earn another £10-£15K in London, and maybe a bit more if I stepped up a grade, but would rather be home with the kids at 6pm most nights.

freeagent - Member

Yes I agree with that sentiment too - I know people that work all the hours for all the financial rewards but for myself I would rather get home in time to read my children books, help with their homework, tuck them into bed etc - they will all too soon be all grown up

This.
I know I could earn another £10-£15K in London, and maybe a bit more if I stepped up a grade, but would rather be home with the kids at 6pm most nights.

Sort of what I did, although I didn't exactly plan it - 10 years in Business Finance, very good money, very good 'performance related pay' - but 12-14 hour days the norm, lots of travel, lots of stress - work 9-5ish now, work from home Fridays with my daughter with me (18mths old) nice boss, "family first" mentality - less money, more smiles.