[Closed] Fuelling the Body

What age? Weight? Height? Riding experience? Typical ride climb and distance?

Two litres of water with half a litre of energy drink AND a gel seems excessive.

I generally work on consuming about 100kcls an hour

I will admit I don't always use that probably half the water and the energy drink - gel on the rare occasion I 'bomb'

Age 33, 5'11, 13st6lbs riding since year dot - typical rides 2 laps Cwmcarn or down to Afan - Forest of Dean, Brecfa - general trail riding.

When you say your breathing goes to pot what do you mean? At any particular point for example when doing a large climb?

ok, so to get an idea of what you're already doing, what would you generally eat before riding 2x laps of Cwmcarn and how long would the ride normally take?

I'd ditch all that sugary drink and gel. Nice strong coffee before you start, caffeine helps get you going, having had a decent breakfast a good hour beforehand. Maybe a cereal bar or some jelly babies/beans between laps.

Alternatively you have cat Aids and are being utterly heroic just lifting the Five from the Thule on top of the Audi. I don't think anyone on here has enough info to go on.

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Makes the trailrider come alive! 😆

still I find my breathing goes to pot on the bike and seem to loose a lot of energy

That could be some medical problem - if you're a seasoned cyclist I don't think you should be doing anything other than just breathing hard, but normally.

The gel and energy drink has its place, but on a longer ride it can help to start off without sugar or insulin in your blood. So don't eat anything high GI (or preferably anything at all) 2 hours before the ride, and only drink water until 45 mins in. This should get you burning fat reserves more effectively.

As for caffeine, afaik it's been proven to help at the end of rides when you're done in, but not otherwise.

For a ride of up to 2 hours, I eat beforehand and just drink water on the ride. For a longer ride, I take a couple of energy bars, bananas or flapjacks with me. I recognise the signs of low blood sugar and eat something before it develops into getting the bonk!
I wouldn't have thought your breathing going to pot is related to fuel though.

The breathing is after a long old push - say Cwmcarn up the Twrch Trail - obviously anybody is going to be breathing big gulps of air pushing yourself up there but I just seem to be taking much longer to recover than all my mates in the past 6 months and is just a bit of a concern.

Before a ride - normally some Weetabix/porridge and fruit a good hour before hand - being doing so since I started.

Midlifecrashes - its not a Five from the Thule on the Audi - it's a Santa from the boot of a Ford 🙂 hehe 🙂

As I say it could be much ado about nothing - I may just need to stop being a big girls blouse about it but just wanted to see what people had to say and if I could do anything different.

Cheers for the replies though,

A lap of Cwmcarn - normally an hour 10 with friends - I did a 54 on my own before 🙂

Your not as fit as you think you are?

Sounds like you're responsibly fit but I scrap the 500ml of energy drink and gel bar their adding no advantage to anything just loading you with unnecessary sugars when you mention you're wanting to lose weight.

If you find it's more during increased exertion why your breathless as opposed to not feeling fit I'd be visiting the GP.

I scrap the 500ml of energy drink and gel bar their adding no advantage to anything just loading you with unnecessary sugars

That's controversial I reckon.

When riding, sugar/maltodextrin (which is what energy foods are) is actually pretty good. Gets energy to your cells fast without your body needing to do much work to digest it.

Sometimes extra high GI carbs can help you lose weight, by helping you work harder for longer. And sometimes not 🙂

Your not as fit as you think you are?

I'd put good money on this. If one swim, a spin and one proper ride per week is all you do then you won't be that fit. Your mates are probably recovering more quickly as they aren't going as far into the red as you.
You don't need anything by way of a special diet for a ride that long.

Sorry.

Maybe my fitness isn't what it is used to be but I have been doing the same routine for years more or less - few more rides in the summer granted. Maybe I just need to shut up and get on with it.

EMSZ and LS - 1 hour's swimming and 1 hours spin and 2 hours on the bike every week - not that fit - I agree not super fit!! What's your idea of being fit then?

What's your idea of being fit then?

Being able to ride up the first climbs at trail centres and not dying on your arse 🙂

You probably just need to do some hard intervals, these should help your breathing and recovery.

If you want to get fit then you need to be riding pretty much everyday of the week, in some shape or form.

Pissing about at the pool and on a spin bike won't get you very fit.

Gets energy to your cells fast without your body needing to do much work to digest it.

Yeah which is why it doesn't burn the reserves so any other food gets stored meaning the pot never goes.

Hmm.

More than one way to empty the pot though.

Cheers molgrips!!!!!! 🙂

Davidtaylford - you will be happy to hear I'm not p1ss1in about the pool now - I'm now able to swim in the deep end.

In all seriousness - maybe I need to MTFU and just crack on.

Cheers all,

Get some interval training done, it'll work wonders.

matt23 - Member

Davidtaylford - you will be happy to hear I'm not p1ss1in about the pool now - I'm now able to swim in the deep end.

Good, but unless it rains alot this winter, I don't see how it's going to help you round your fave trail centre.

4 hours exercise, and only 2 of that on a bike is not really enough to make you fit on a bike.

What's your idea of being fit then?

I'm with molgrips on this one...

In comparison; last week I did 6 hours on the bike on Monday, three hours on Wednesday and then 3 and a half hours in the Lakes on Sunday. I did 4 hours walking in the week too.

Cheers Molgrips - David - have you seen some trails lately it's bog snorkelling I need to do 🙂

Crikey - would love to do 12 hours on the bike in a week - would love to do half of that - guess I need to make time 🙂

It is difficult, especially if you work any kind of conventional 9ish-5ish job. When I did, I rode a lot in the early mornings, and did some in the evenings too.

My take on cycling fitness is that it is extremely specific, and swimming and spinning are only stop gaps rather than real training.

I'm lucky to have time during the week and I want to be cycling fit, so I ride as much as I can. Other people will suggest that you can be fitter off less time, and you probably can be, but volume has always worked for me.

I reckon two hours IS enough to make you fit, but spread it over several interval sessions. Intervals need only take half an hour if you do them right - twice a week with your 2 hour at the weekend, you'll be flying.

And never mind trails, structured intervals require road bike, turbo or running. Trails can be useful for flogging yourself, depending on what your local ones are like, but they can be rubbish for it.

What's your idea of being fit then?

Well it all depends on the speed of the people you ride with. But an hours' swimming won't help you go much faster on the bike unless you're horrendously unfit to start with, so you're effectively doing 3 hours a week. Unless you're hammering for every minute of those three hours then it's really not a lot.

Molgrips, how do you end up in terms of 'efficiency' when only or mainly doing intervals?

By efficiency I suppose I mean economy or something like it.

A lot of my attachment to training volume is psychological; I knew I could do the 60 miles on the Sunday because I'd done 75 on the Monday, and I knew fuelling wouldn't be a problem because I did the 75 on breakfast and a bottle. Because the Sunday ride was a bit quicker, I had a gel and an extra sandwich, but I wouldn't be confident doing it off interval training.

(Did the Cumbrian Cracker sportive with a mate)

Did the Cumbrian Cracker sportive with a mate)

How did you get on?

My mate nearly won 😉

I've got the stats somewhere, but about 3:35 with a couple of wee stops and a sandwich and coffee at Cartmel.

Can't be doing with sportives really; too many wannabe racers 😉

😀

Good effort, it's a good ride, I did it a few years ago. Looked busy this year though.

Think my mate did 3:01, not sure if he was racing though.

Well tbh crikey (if I've understood you correctly) I've done very little in the way of long rides for a few years, what with family commitments and all. I feel generally pretty strong on the bike and I can do my 2 hour local rides as well as ever (I do one every 3-4 weeks) but I've not done a long one for aaages. Last time I went out about 8 months ago with a mate who's always been far fitter than me, and I was pretty much his equal over three hours including on climbs. That was after a couple of months of commuting 9 ish suburban miles each way with a series of flat out everythings-going-grey short climbs at the end of the home leg.

So I do think it's possible to be good at longer rides and maintain endurance without spending hours on the bike. They call it 'minimum effective dose' and it has a few followers, including a certain well known cycling coach.

Of course, it's nice to debate hours on the bike vs intervals, but I ain't got hours to spare so I do intervals out of necessity.

I've also been cycling for years and years, my whole adult life, so that probably has something to do with it too. My body is just used to it now.

Sorry to say your problem is probably your weight.

You need to lose at least two stone to get to a reasonable weight for your height. You're not currently obese but you're significantly overweight.

Your BMI is 26.24 based on the info you gave and nobody that overweight is much cop on a bike (except maybe downhill!)

As I say, I'm sure much of my attachment to volume is psychological, and it's a luxury denied to many without sacrificing sleep and other stuff. Then again, much of what counts as performance is also psychological, so maybe it makes sense.
I was wondering about the effect on fuelling; does volume training affect efficiency more than intervals?

I'm only asking out of interest, and not arguing for one over the other.

You need to lose at least two stone to get to a reasonable weight for your height. You're not currently obese but you're significantly overweight.

Not necessarily. I'm his height and half a stone heavier, and I can ride up trail centre climbs easily. I lose a lot of places in races on climbs, but I certainly don't have trouble breathing! FWIW I could not lose two stone. One maybe.

Crikey: Long rides can be more enjoyable than intervals, so that's a clear win of course, but I'm sure the psychology of grim endurance is very useful too. But then again it depends on what you're training for. I've deliberately focused on short stuff because I'm only ever going to be interested in XC racing I think, and I think I'm much better suited to it.

I think volume makes you efficient, but I think I can get a lot of benefit from eating low carb or iDiet. With that and the 45 minute rule I think it helps keep my endurance going by training my fat burning even as I commute and run. When I do a 2 hour ride I still finish fresh. But I'm coming from the far opposite end of the spectrum, I always used to eat loads of carbs and that was my main riding fuel, so I think eating low carb is useful for me to do. 10 years ago I could bonk terribly and suddenly - now I never do.

Mmm, ok. I might think about doing more interval stuff, but I need to spend a long time on the bike to keep me out of the fridge and then the pub... 😉

If you want to be fast you definitely need intervals imo. Even if it's a short loop with some steep hills, rather than structure.

If you do them in a long ride you won't be able to attack them as hard as if you only did the intervals I reckon.

You need to lose at least two stone to get to a reasonable weight for your height. You're not currently obese but you're significantly overweight.

Your BMI is 26.24 based on the info you gave and nobody that overweight is much cop on a bike (except maybe downhill!)

BMI is load of bollocks even more so when you can't see the person.

One person's 10 hours a week could be very different to another's. If you go at a hard pace with some good climbs over a shorter distance, surely that can be as effective as a longer, more leisurely ride with less climbing?

One person's 10 hours a week could be very different to another's. If you go at a hard pace with some good climbs over a shorter distance, surely that can be as effective as a longer, more leisurely ride with less climbing?

There is an oft repeated maxim that one of the differences in training between pros and amateurs is that the amateurs do the easy stuff too hard and the hard stuff too easy.

Volume in terms of training is usually underestimated by amateur riders; pros will spend 5-6-7 hours on the bike, one of my friends rides in Belgium and when home here will ride 80 kms to a race, race, then ride 80 kms home, or go and do 100 kms behind a motorbike [i]after[/i] he has raced.

Just going out 'hard' for a few hours is not the same as structured training.

But just doing miles isn't enough. My brother in law's dad did an insane amount of miles training for his sportive, including seven thousand miles over the winter alone *on a turbo trainer*

He was slow though, slower than me when we went out and I'd done about 3 rides in 6 months!

I followed Molgrips advice a few months ago, alomng with 6hrs riding a week structured intervals by Chris Carmicheals time crunched training plan. You need to bear in mind everyone is different but...

I lost a stone, got noticably faster and can sustain more power for longer during a ride. My appetite actually went down, but I was eating nothing more than Granola OR 2 slices toast/poached eggs for breakfast at 7, then hitting the intervals at 11am. I used Choc Milk for immediate recovery, and just limited my diet to sensible food types after that - no cakes biscuits sweets etc with Fridays's as Treat day. The crowning result was 6th place riding solo in a regional 85m sportive,amongst 3 clubs and the Gore racing team (17 riders) disregarding everyone else, that according to the car park talk, were going to "smash it".

I've just started the latest program to enter a London winter series for my club 🙂

But just doing miles isn't enough

I agree 100%, and this [i]seven thousand miles over the winter alone *on a turbo trainer*[/i] is just daft.

Lots of miles = lots of base training and then a refinement, a sharpening, a honing which means quicker and harder and shorter efforts.

Base miles are when you get used to your bike, and train your body to work efficiently in a fairly set position, plus develop that 'efficiency' that I'm failing miserably to explain.

Crikey- I'm not suggesting that structured training isn't effective, I'm saying that what you do with your X hours per week of exercise makes a difference. If I fart about at an easy pace on a flattish trail for 2 hours, that's obviously not going to get me as fit as pushing myself and "manning up" to include bigger and more technical climbs.
I rode 71 miles in the Peak District yesterday and had to push myself to keep up with the faster guys, when it would've been easier for me (but less helpful to my fitness) to pootle along on a flat ride in Cheshire at a comfortable speed.

If I fart about at an easy pace on a flattish trail for 2 hours, that's obviously not going to get me as fit as pushing myself and "manning up" to include bigger and more technical climbs.

The idea, and I'm no technical training guru, is a combination of both. Old fashioned cycle club training would involve lots of long steady distance miles in the winter, even to the extent of a 'no big chainring' rule until March, then chaingangs would start; basically road race training to sharpen up, then racing through the year.

The key issue is 'periodisation'; the idea that to try to stay as fast as you can through the year is nigh on impossible, and that you get better results by 'peaking' for events rather than trying to be quick all the time.

I think that is probably the drawback with interval based training theory; there is no downtime as such, and no period of conditioning to enable the stresses of more intense training, which is where high volume, low intensity stuff comes in.

I think that is probably the drawback with interval based training theory; there is no downtime as such, and no period of conditioning to enable the stresses of more intense training, which is where high volume, low intensity stuff comes in.

Not on the plan I was using. I've just reverted to "normal" cycling for 7 weeks as advised by the book. I've gained 2 pounds am slightly slower as a result, but then 2 years ago queued behind Christine Ohurugu at a hot dog stand, so I guess if its good enough for her.....

I today started a 7-8 week interval plan before I start my winter series.

We do tend to take our road rides easier in the winter in our club, and I don't have a lot of choice anyway as I get SAD and am unable to push myself as hard.

I think that is probably the drawback with interval based training theory; there is no downtime as such

Well there can be, no-one's saying you have to do it every week.

Some intervals are so short that you stress your body's systems overall in 15 minutes far less than you do in 3 hours on the bike, but you stress what's really needed to train. So you can do two a week with other training easily enough.

I might do 8x200m with 30s rest on foot, and I really hurt, but an hour later I'm fine. And it has a massive effect on my running and riding. However a three hour hard ride hurts less but takes a few days to recover.

Anyway it's not called 'interval based training' it's called 'minimum effective dose'. And the theory goes that 12 hours of base a week is more than you need to get the training benefit.

Well, we shall see.

Training develops as it should, over time, and old theories should be challenged.

I will be sticking with volume rather than intensity, although I do intervals as part of that as things approach.

Anecdotes;

A bloke went away touring with his wife when he had to stop racing for a while, came back and was faster than when he left.

My friends who raced on the track all winter always got dropped on the first few chaingangs in March.

Specificity is the key to cycling fitness in my opinion.

I'm in the process of reading the Chris Carmicheals time crunched cyclist - only half way through and it is making a lot of sense. However, one thing I ride my bike for is fun, I'm thinking it might beat that out of me...one way to find out...I think training at volume is a luxury for most people who hold down hectic jobs and have families.

And to the OP 54mins round twrch is pretty fast, if you look at strava that will be in the top 7 or 8%. (I know as I'm trying to break the hour, and was on for a 56 before a puncture a few weeks ago)

From what you've written it sounds like you've got a bit fat and lost some fitness but still think you can put out the same loop times. Sadly it isn't the case.

However, one thing I ride my bike for is fun, I'm thinking it might beat that out of me...

And you're probably right. It depends on your motive. Serious performance gain for racing, or serious fitness gain/weight loss all take effort, bike or no bike. If you don't want to get serious or put that effort in don't, just go an enjoy yourself.

There's no reason you can't go on a road based pootle unless you are religious about the plan to a T.

Short Intervals are good for developing specific fitness quickly but results are short lived and tend to plateau. Long 10-20 min intervals are better at raising aerobic capacity and will improve your riding fitness massivly

Crikey, no-one's suggesting you do ONLY one kind of riding. Your trackie mates may well have neglegted base. You still need some.

LOts of good info there -it's all your fault but I'm now going to buy a cheappy 2nd hand road bike this week and get out in the week for 30-40 minute blasts of a 4mile loop with a good short but hard climb to burst through that.

I'm not trying to win races here just want to do myself and the bike justice!

And BMI is absolute horsesh1t making calculations without even seeing the person taking in to account medical history and other factors so 'housecat' thanks for that waste of a post!!!! 🙂

Right so road bike plus shoes plus pedals plus lights plus computer plus heart rate monitor shopping it is 🙂

Cheers guys - some really good tips and info there thank you!

And BMI is absolute horsesh1t making calculations without even seeing the person taking in to account medical history and other factors so 'housecat' thanks for that waste of a post!!!!

Charming. You ask for advice on a public forum, and I give you the best bit of advice offered, but you dont like it. Well, MTFU and deal with it, because its reality. You've been overfueling yourself for some time and not getting enough exercise.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you're big boned, got a slow metabolism, blah blah.
No, you're just a porker whos slow on his bike and cant accept it, like lots of the middle aged keyboard warriors on here.

You cant go into the LBS and buy a load of 'fitness' you know. You have to work at it over time, and lose that weight. fat lad. Or get used to getting dropped - actually, that'll suit you, you sound lazy.

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Housecat 😀

get out in the week for 30-40 minute blasts of a 4mile loop with a good short but hard climb to burst through that.

Try taking it easy on the loop and then trying to make yourself puke on the climb - and then other times try the other way around.

Go ahead housecat. Shall I pick your toys up for you?

Avoid a heavy breakfast and don't eat/ingest anything sugary before or during your ride IMO. Thats what I've found. I used to get a sugar crash mid-ride when I had jelly-babies.

Housecat - think you need to sit down and chill out. Your post was useless for two valid reasons:-

1. You have two bits of information to 'confirm' my BMI - even if you are in the medical profession I don't think you can argue that 2 bits of information can enable you to 'confirm' my BMI?
2. I have confirmed BMI of 19.4% (Aug 2013)

I have been riding long enough not to come on a public forum and ask for help knowing that I am fat......my original post was a query about a concern I have asking for suggestions. From the valid posts everybody has provided the essence is I am probably not doing enough and probably fuelling too much.

So if you have nothing further to add than personal insults (porker, fat lad, lazy) I thank you for your time....my e-mail is in my profile feel free to drop me a mail but grow up and let's have a civilised chat.

Rest of you thank you very much for your posts - I have taken it all on board and hopefully I can put it to good use.

SO on that note I shall MTFU.....get on the back and do more riding.

I think you mean body fat in point 2 - still time to edit 🙂

Overweight? 😆

What does that make me? 6ft 15.8stone!!

I should go on feedersdating.com