[Closed] Front of my house just fell off

If you bought it new surely you have the usual (10?) year warranty on new houses? That's an abomination, and exactly why I never trust anyone to build or fix anything properly, I'd rather cock it up myself and know it's a risk than pay someone to do it AND not know! Bad luck, hope it gets sorted easily, I'm sure it will.

IIRC, there should be a 10 year guarantee with the house through NHBC. They should fix something like that.

2 and a half inches?!? 😯

You need to check what's covered with the NHBC guarantee.
I'd reckon they might be worried about sorting this, since it could happen to any of the other houses built around the same time, for the reasons you suggest.

Pretty likely that this would come under building warranty.

Getting NHBC to settle it though is another matter.

Take a photo of it in the morning. It should have been held in by more than just screws, probably anchor bolts or similar. At 5 years old it should be covered by NHBC but to be honest it may be easier and quicker for you to sort it.

Getting NHBC to settle it though is another matter.

+1

They're bastards.

Photos. Now.

What's the overall length of the screws that were "holding" it on to the wall? I can just picture the scenario on the day it was put up...

nhbc not worth the paper its written on.. complete and utter waste of time.

You need to check what's covered with the NHBC guarantee.
I'd reckon they might be worried about sorting this, since it could happen to any of the other houses built around the same time, for the reasons you suggest.

From what I have read in the past the whole house has to disappear into a hole which you have to prove you knew nothing about before the NHBC become interested.

I'm honestly more concerned with no one being under one of these if it falls off so I'm hoping the builders treat this with some degree of seriousness.

This is what it looked like after it came down:

[img] [/img]

And eight of these is all that was holding it up:

[img] [/img]

That is fantastically shonky just wait for the next snow fall and see how many more fall off.

A structural engineer would raise an eyebrow at that.

That is indeed shonkier than a shonky thing in shonky town.

That is fantastically shonky just wait for the next snow fall and see how many more fall off.

This is something I don't understand - the canopy had a foot and a half of snow on it for the best part of 2 weeks last December and was also hit by an avalanch of ice from the roof when the thaw came. I can only assume this has weakened the fixings but why it chose to fall off tonight is anyone's guess.

Presumably these went into heavy duty rawl-plugs?
Aye, the NHBC wont be interested but the onsite rep might.

A structural engineer would raise an eyebrow at that.

If I get no joy from the builder I think I will have a word with Building Control at the local council to see if there any regulations regarding the installation of these things.

It's hard to know. Maybe a baby Robin landed on it and that was the final straw 🙂

That's criminally dangerous. Which is a phrase you probably should use while having a word with the building people.

Presumably these went into heavy duty rawl-plugs?

It's a bit dark to see at the moment but looking at the picture of the screw I posted above there is a bit of the plug left on the screw and it looks like a standard issue brown rawlplug to me - [url= ]here is a link to a larger version of the image.[/url]

but why it chose to fall off tonight is anyone's guess

It's hard to know. Maybe a baby Robin landed on it and that was the final straw

I was actually wondering if any spoon handles or chewing gum had been used in the installation. 😆

Looks like a brown wall plug which means a no 12 screw. But to be fair, there should be proper wall bolts in there. Christ, I use 12s for skirting sometimes if I really need them to pull into the wall.

Er have you checked upstairs for burglars ?

I might have noticed them climbing in the window as I was sat in the room immediately above the canopy.

I have absolutely no faith in new build houses.

When I eventually stop buying shiny and start buying brickwork it will be bticks that have stood the test of time!!!

Seriously dodgy that, not to put the wind up you but it makes me wonder where else they have cut corners.

Still, luckily no one was injured!

Looks like a brown wall plug which means a no 12 screw. But to be fair, there should be proper wall bolts in there. Christ, I use 12s for skirting sometimes if I really need them to pull into the wall.

I did say to one of the neighbours that I would think twice about putting bookshelves up with the screws which were holding this thing up.

Prolonged dry period/shrinkage may have played a part. Plus it had to happen to someone first.

It's hard to guess the conditions under which things fail. Any snow loading, being straight down, may have increased the grip of the fixings in the masonary, so the failure mode at that time was most likely to be shear. Conversely, the canopy at its lightest may have reduced the downwards loading on the upper fixings, allowing a rotation about the lower fixings while the uppers fixings pulled straight out of the wall.

Either that or check for a large swallows nest.

allowing a rotation about the lower fixings while the uppers fixings pulled straight out of the wall.

At least one of the lower fixings has sheared - I could see the remnants of the screw in the wall, but it has clearly rotated away from the wall to end up where it did.

Off to bed now - thanks for all the comments.

Remember to pick a busy time at sales centre and talk loudly about the failings, sure they will rush to assist you if it stops costing them sales.

I would give your local council building control office a call on monday (not a dangerous structure anymore so no need to call out now) and share your concerns as mentioned above.

Initially show them the pic and tell them your 6 year old daughter is in hospital as a result and that your solicitor/Anne Robinson will be in touch.

That'll stir em......

>Seriously dodgy that, not to put the wind up you but it makes me wonder where else they have cut corners.<

Breeze block instead of facing bricks?

Are these three blocks standing proud in any way / designed to take some of the load?

Eiether way that's and incredibly inadequate design.

IMO it's an open and shut case - the NHBC have a legal responsibility. I would hurry things along by getting in touch with the Mirror or the Sun (depending on your political persuasion) they will almost certainly be interested in the story - specially if it involves interesting and "shocking" pictures, and they can write an alarmist story about the whole estate being at risk and the threat to children's lives.

Show no mercy - the builders and sub-contractors deserved to be hammered. Do your best to try and ensure that they are.

not been hanging any porches lately have you Ernie? Your Insurance up to scratch?

😉

Not very recently (my last porch was about 8 months ago and was considerably larger than that one) As far as I'm aware none of my porches have ever fallen off. In fact, as far as I'm aware nothing I have ever fixed has ever fallen off. Never had a come back - ever.

cant beat gripfill can you.
🙂

You can actually - epoxy resin. The wall plates on my last porch relied on the power of epoxy resin 8)

you haven't got any children you can hit, just claim it was the porch and then send the photos to the papers.

bit late i know cos i think they may have already noticed but you need to let others know with the same type of porch to wear safty helmets when entering or leaving their homes me i would be off to wicks for some 2x2 to support it till it was inspected.. nhbc is a none starter its a money earner that does not protect the home owner just creats an industry of paper pushers and they will just make things as hard as possible. remember you have to give them the right to repair but if you do anything yourself let them know and keep photos and bills,

I would be circulating pics of that around all neighbours - then they will all kick off. That'll wake the builders up.

Shocking work :-O

Shocking. As above, let your neighbours know asap.

I've just been to the sales centre. The woman in there was with a customer and really couldn't get me out of the door quick enough. All she would say was that it was outside the builders guarantee period and was completely unconcerned that another of these things could fall off and hurt someone. She told me to ring head office in the morning but I had to fight to get her to give me the number.

I am a bit reticent about going round all the neighbours and stirring anything up until I've given the builder (Bellway by the way) a chance to deal with the issue. I've been round and counted 17 more of this exact same design on the development and also some much larger ones which appeared to be supported in the same way. I will ring the head office first thing, if they don't show some urgent interest then I will be onto building control and round the neighbours.

The canopy as it is now (without any slates) takes two people to lift and we estimated the weight to be somewhere about 100kg. There are 66 tiles on next doors canopy and having weighed one I know they weigh just over 2kg each. So this thing weighs well north of 200kg. On closer inspection in the daylight I discovered there were actually only 6 screws holding it up and they were only into brown rawlplugs, on one of these the plug was into mortar and doing nothing to provide support. And it turns out I was being generous when I said there was 2½ inches of screw in the wall - this was one of the longer screws. The 4 screws holding the supporting brackets underneath had 1¾ inches of screw in the wall:

[img] [/img]

Anyone know of any online resources which give recommended load limits for different kinds of fixings?

Ask for details of their liability insurance as you'll be needing it.

Go to NHBC and make a report, take plenty of pictures. As said probably won't do anything but worth a try. That is shocking. Think ive got a spec somewhere for fixing bolt on canopies. Will have a look

If you don't get anywhere then the local/national press would be very interested I would imagine.

I've just been to the sales centre. The woman in there was with a customer and really couldn't get me out of the door quick enough.

I'll bet she bloody couldnt!

I think I'd be camped outside the sales centre with the remnants of the porch and the tiles in a big heap on the floor for all their potential customers to see until I was satisfied they were going to something about it 👿

I am a bit reticent about going round all the neighbours and stirring anything up until I've given the builder (Bellway by the way) a chance to deal with the issue.

Why ? You owe the builder no favours - this is a potentially extremely dangerous fault. You can expect the odd door which might need easing after 5 years, but for the porch to fall off the front of the house is a ****ing disgrace. There is no justification for feeling charitable towards the builder or in any way helping them with a cover-up.

And I don't know why so many people appear to have so little faith in the British legal system. Irrespective of if the NHBC will be willing to honour their contractual commitment, they have a clear legal obligation to do so - they have no choice in the matter. This is without the slightest doubt whatsoever a major defect within 10 years.

I think I'd be camped outside the sales centre with the remnants of the porch and the tiles in a big heap on the floor for all their potential customers to see until I was satisfied they were going to something about it

This is an avenue I had considered and may still be taken should all others be exhausted, but at the moment I have no way of getting it there short of cutting it up.

Be very clear on time scales, do not let them fob you off. If they have cut corners on one property then it is quite likely the same gang did the same on other properties. Out is what really gets to me about the national house builders, build cheap sell expensive.

There is no justification for feeling charitable towards the builder or in any way helping them with a cover-up.

In no way do I feel charitable towards the builder (already named and shamed above) I just feel in the interest of fairness I should give someone in a managerial capacity the chance to say whether or not they are going to do anything before kicking up a fuss. There will not be anything like a cover-up, if the builder doesn't fix mine and retrofit all the others on this site I will be onto the local paper and any other channels available (this will probably be front page news in my local rag).

And of course the rest of your house will, unfortunately, have been cobbled together just as badly.

mastiles_fanylion - Member
And of course the rest of your house will, unfortunately, have been cobbled together just as badly.

That's what would concern me.

I'd definitely be talking to the neighbours as they'll want there's sorted out too.

If they have cut corners on one property then it is quite likely the same gang did the same on other properties.

Well of course. They are unlikely to have used chemical bolts on the all the other porches on the estate, but singled out Mr C's porch for the 4 inch screws and brown plugs treatment.

build cheap sell expensive.

I don't suppose this has anything to do with cost at all, and it is just a case of "couldn't give a ****" and some smart-arse thinking they know better.

Bellway Homes is unlikely to have saved any money as a result of poor fixing. The fixing of the porches will have been in the carpentry sub-contractors prices, and they would have priced them based on the architects specifications provided to them - I doubt very much that 4 inch screws in brown plugs where specified. So the cost will have already been covered, and Bellway Homes will have paid for it - the carpentry sub-contractors will have supplied all fixings at their own costs.

Those responsible, as far as I'm concerned, are the carpentry sub-contractors, site management, and the NHBC guy who comes on site.

Doubt the architects specced anything. If it were Bellway they are mostly D&B so will have done whatever!

I should give someone in a managerial capacity the chance to say whether or not they are going to do anything before kicking up a fuss.

So as long as they fix the problem, it's perfectly alright for a porch to fall off the front of a house ?

*rolls eyes*

Building inspector will take more than a passing interest too, I'd imagine. Are the fixings visible on your neighbours' porches?

Hopefully their D&B employs the odd architect/engineer Taff. And if it wasn't specified, then I don't know why the sub-contractor didn't ask the question when pricing - there's a big difference in a box of screws and brown plugs v chemical bolts, for example - both in cost and lab time.

How are these things normally built then? Wall plate fixed and built from there or is the whole porch fitted, then tiled and leaded? 😕

I've fitted the lightweight version (plastic tile effect roof, prob 35kg) and the instructions called for chunky timber wall plates. Me and my mate both hung off it to make sure it was solid (32 stone :oops:) before doing the flashing. That was on a 30s brick house. If yours is timber frame I'd be having a long look at where those screws were going and how that was tied to the rest of the structure.

I've fitted plenty of pre-formed fibreglass canopies which required nothing more than screws, but more substantial structures with wall plates generally need a bit more, such as expansion/chemical bolts into solid brickwork/concrete blocks. I would expect it to be specified on the drawings.

Bellway Homes is unlikely to have saved any money as a result of poor fixing. The fixing of the porches will have been in the carpentry sub-contractors prices, and they would have priced them based on the architects specifications provided to them - I doubt very much that 4 inch screws in brown plugs where specified. So the cost will have already been covered, and Bellway Homes will have paid for it - the carpentry sub-contractors will have supplied all fixings at their own costs.

No Bellway are responsible in so much as that they will have employed subbies on the basis of cost, Teh subby will have employed the cheapest labour they could get away with. Why pay for a decent chippy when you can get some monkey with a drill to do the job for half the money.

There is definitely an element of couldn't give a S***, but it is through the whole chain. There are good builders, but there are also a lot of cowboys.

And even if the spec said what to use the number of times i have come across subbies willing to break the spec to save a few pence is unreal. As long as you get away with it no one knows or cares.

No Bellway are responsible in so much as that they will have employed subbies on the basis of cost

Which explains why I said :

[i]"Those responsible, as far as I'm concerned, are the carpentry sub-contractors, site management, and the NHBC guy who comes on site".[/i]

Why pay for a decent chippy when you can get some monkey with a drill to do the job for half the money

Because there is, or should be, site management which strictly controls quality and standards of work which complies with the specs. All the more so at a time when work is thin on the ground. I will always remember what a site agent once said to my subbie, his exact words were "you are contractually required to supply carpenters - not ****s" it made us all smile, and what he was complaining about was actually very minor. Tradesmen not up to the job are simply thrown off the site - no site agent/manager feels any obligation to put up with them.

Of course there is always the possibility that Bellway Homes themselves, were responsible for any "short-cuts". They could have demanded that the subbie goes ahead and fixes the porches straight away without waiting for the correct fixings to arrive, because of the time element - that is very far from unusual. But the subbie should at the very least have insisted on having it in writing, although ideally refused to do it.

I've just noticed on the canopy a small label with the manufacturers name on it - StormKing. I have been to their website and discovered a pdf of "Fixing / Loading Information For Standard Stormking Canopies". On this it states that for the kind of canopy I have (Apex Trussed variety) the minimum fixing for solid brick is M10 Rawlock bolts. I believe the technical term for this is "bang to rights". 😀

Edit: Can we take the argument about who is responsible elsewhere before another thread gets closed - I bought the house from the builder, whether they subcontracted the work is no concern of mine, my contract is with Bellway.

Good detective work mate. Worth a call to them just to discuss the matter? Absolutely no way should this be impacting on your insurance.

And +100 for informing your neighbours with a similar design. I'd say they have a right to know what's going on as that's clearly dangerous and could land on a childs face with no prior warning 👿 Someone in the group of interested people will probably know a solicitor and offer to take up the case on everyone's behalf. Result being that you'll get the problem sorted at minimum cost and effort to yourself. Thus giving you more time and money to spend on biking 😆

A bit scary having a lump like that fall off your house, esp at exactly the spot you could expect someone to be standing (and makihg the sort of vibrations closing the door that could nudge it over the edge).

Whilst you need to get on to the builder's management pdq, I would not waste too much time before making contact with your neighbours. Partly your issue is with making good your property at no cost to yourself but you also seem to have an admirable concern with the welfare of your neighbours. Popping a note through a few doors detailing all you have found so far, including a photo of your house and inviting them to make contact with you to make joint protest to the builder will be power to your elbow. At the moment you can invite the to come around and see your house at its worst before and repair work is done.

TBH though - those porches - god awful things! They are the turn of the millenium equivalent of the mock georgian entrances on estate properties of the 80's. Best rid of it! Our first house had one and as it had a front door that entered directly into the front room I suppose it did stop a bit of rain entering but they do nothing for house aesthetics.

TBH though - those porches - god awful things! They are the turn of the millenium equivalent of the mock georgian entrances on estate properties of the 80's. Best rid of it! Our first house had one and as it had a front door that entered directly into the front room I suppose it did stop a bit of rain entering but they do nothing for house aesthetics.

Never had one (ued to have a carport above the front door at previous house) but I can see the benefit to be honest - a proper porch keeps the muddy shoes and rain and wind outside when you walk in. These half-ass porches are pointless though, other than to stop you getting QUITE as wet while fumbling for your key to get in lol. Just another thing to get ripped off in high winds!

I haven’t read this thread thoroughly but scanning it reveals some misunderstanding about contract law and the areas of responsibility in relation to this. However....

• The fixing of the porch is clearly woefully inadequate so everyone involved is negligent of their duties under contract and in tort
• The owner has recourse to the Builder under contract.
• If not original owner there could be a collateral warranty agreement.
• If there is no contractual relationship then the builder is responsible in tort.
• Any subcontractors that may have been used by the builder are irrelevant. The builder may be able to counterclaim from them but the owner has no action against them.
• NHBC are essentially insurers – the builder’s insurers. Go after the builder and let them deal with NHBC. They have a duty to approve the drawing and inspect the works to ensure adequacy and compliance with their rules
• The Local Authority has the responsibility to ensure compliance with Building regulations. This obviously does not comply and therefore they are at fault and liable.

It depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to get your porch restored without reference to the broader safety issues you need to get to the builder and offer to keep quiet if they fix it for you. If you are concerned about other people’s safety go to the Local Authority – they are bigger and more powerful than you. Also they are liable so their motivation should be good. Perhaps make an appointment to discuss the matter with a Senior Building Inspector and see how they react. Whatever they do/don’t say or do, write to them confirming the contents of that meeting immediately after.

BTW a proper solution to the fixing problem is quite difficult. It’s not enough to simply use stronger fixings. What the fixing goes into needs to be considered. The best anchor in the world is useless if it is set in cheese. Cavity walls are cheese for the purposes of cantilevers.

The before and after photographs don’t match?

The before and after photographs don’t match?

There is no before photograph - the first picture was just an example of the type.

This is what it looked a few years back on Google Streetmaps.

[img] [/img]

If you just want to get your porch restored without reference to the broader safety issues you need to get to the builder and offer to keep quiet if they fix it for you

There will be no offer to keep quiet - a lot of these canopies are very close to the footpath and, like mine, could fall on anyone passing by including my daughter - I will be insisting they are all checked and re-fixed correctly. Armed with the evidence from the manufacturers website I am going to talk to all the neighbours with the same type canopy this afternoon.

• The Local Authority has the responsibility to ensure compliance with Building regulations. This obviously does not comply and therefore they are at fault and liable.

I've always wondered about this bit.

I can see how building inspectors can check dimensions, following of approved plans and the significant visually inspectable building issues; but how are they expected to have intimate knowledge of this type of fixing where the exact nature can't be determined once the work is finished? They can't be expected to be hovering over the builders shoulder to witness every job. I guess maybe in this case the screw heads might have just been painted over and not plugged so could have been seen and queried.

On a new build it's likely the local authority haven't been anywhere near it, the big housebuilders normally use approved inspectors

The likelihood of the LA ever having been nearbyhis is zero, it'll either have been done by NHBC or another of the recognised bodies. Just speak to the housebuilder tomorrow morning and ask them to pop round to discuss as you'd like it sorted pretty quickly. Don't go all bombers on them as it's a lot more pleasant for all concerned if it's done without threats and swearing.

Even if the LA are involved, doesn't seem they enforce much. Just sold a house that was built mid-nineties, turned out the developer never got the building control signed off. They just sold it and vanished.

Buyers solicitors picked it up. Ended up getting the inspector around 15 years after the event to sign the property off. He turns up with a list of outstanding items, which I then had to put right before we could get a completion certificate.

Quizzed the guy why they didn't enforce the sign-off, he just shrugged his shoulders, said we're very busy you know...

...wanders off to check porch...

Shocking. Had two houses with such porches, the M10 raw bolts should be obvious from the underside of the porch. I'd put a letter through every house on the estate with such a porch immediately, and start propping up the porches with some decent timber. I suspect people may have noticed that it's already fallen off.

I can't seriously imaging Bellway Homes not taking this seriously, to be honest - whatever the sales rep might say. Retrospective refitting of proper bolts isn't that great a deal. The company that built our last house had to completely rebuild a set of garages as the mortar crumbled away - all without removing the roof. 😳

Having a quick look at the Fischer manual, a 6mm screw in a standard S plug (similar to a Rawlplug) has a typical recommended load of about 60kg.

I would NEVER just use screws and plugs to hold anything substantial onto the outside of a building.

For reference, we have just had a 450mm deep canopy designed at work and that needed M8 wall anchors at 400mm centres (so 10 in total to take the 4m wide canopy). I think the design weight of the canopy was 130kg off the top of my head. We would have thrown it back to the engineer had he specced screws and plugs.

Edited

well - the fixings are pathetic.

I've just put up a punchbag holder on the outside of my house. the bracket is about 10kg....it'll hold a what, 20kg punchbag? and it has a chin-up bar to lift my 18st bulk.....so the [b]6 x 10mm BOLTS [i/b] supplied should be ok to keep the total of 145kg.

now - bearing the aobve in mind.....6 x screws???? me thinks not

That is terrible I fit these canopy's and we use bolts which are between 120mm and 160mm and 6mm in thickness at every 400mm.

On the other hand these houses have to be thrown together so quickly these days, everyone is on a price which is usually terrible so it no surprise there are corners cut everywhere...

Not to mention most of the builders working on sites now cant speak a word of english let alone read a instruction manual.

a proper solution to the fixing problem is quite difficult. It’s not enough to simply use stronger fixings. .......The best anchor in the world is useless if it is set in cheese. Cavity walls are cheese for the purposes of cantilevers.

I disagree, a brick or concrete block cavity wall should be perfectly adequate to handle the weight of a porch. And in this case it's clearly the fixings which have failed, not the wall. I am also unconvinced that providing correct fixings now, need necessarily present a serious problem (I can't quite figure out the construction details from the 2 pic which appear to be different) unless of course other porches have started pulling away from the walls - that could be a problem, and might require more or less starting again. Still not that big a deal imo.

i refer you to the earlier post.. your wasting time and energy. nhbc will have nothing to do with it.. on our new barratt homes the ridge tiles were literally droping off on to cars the road etc etc.. thier reponse ryhmed with puff.

Just in case the OP gets too despondent by the suggestions of the defeatists on here :

[i]"Figures for claims paid to homeowners that claimed on their NHBC Warranty in 2008/09 went up from £46.4m in 2007/08 to £59.3m in 2008/09"[/i]

So it would appear that the NHBC pays out over £1 million every week in claims then.

And the breakdown is as follows :

[i]"NHBC claims figure for 2008/09 include 17.3% of claims related to foundations, substructure and ground floors (subject to building control inspections). The building envelope including intermediate floors accounted for 34.6% of all claims, again a fundamental structural aspect. The roof accounted to nearly as many claims at 33.9%, services, fixtures and finishes accounted for 11.5% and finally ancillary buildings such as garages 2.7%."[/i]

I think we can safely assume that the porch falling off the front of your house represents a serious structural defect. Unless of course it can be proved that the OP went round removing all the expansion/chemical bolts and replaced them with 4 inch screws and brown plugs.

as someone who has spent many years selling technical construction products to the housebuilders I'd suggest the following:

Ascertain who manufactured the canopy, probably someone like canopies.co.uk and ask their technical dept to give you a technical installation manager. It was most definately fitted contrary to their instructions which makes the house builders liable.

Issue a small claims court for the cost of a new canopy and professional fitting and another £1500 for stress, hassle etc and you'll sail through the courts.

I've had Persimmons to court twice for various issues and won on both occasions.