[Closed] Freelancers & self-employed: any tips for handling a bad payer?

We did small claims court twice and it worked. Not sure these days what the options are for this but worth looking into.

Can you not shut down the site until paid? (Although I may have misunderstood what it is you've done.)

What is the nature of the work you've undertaken for him?

Was the job a fixed price contract, or a 'day-rate' type approach?

Take a loved family member of the perpetrator hostage until they acquiesce to your demands

If it's your work and it's not been paid for, presumably he has no right to 'sell' this on to his client? Might be worth letting them know that he hasn't been paying his bills and they might be liable for a copyright claim. However, I've got no experience in this area whatsoever...

Go and see him and see what he says. Easy to ignore emails etc.

lardman - it was a fixed price agreed in advance.

Thanks for these replies, folk. I'm a copywriter, and I wrote the script for a 2-minute corporate video to be embedded on a company's home page. The work went down well and has been signed off, although it's not on the website yet (the film is probably still in the making - my script came first). I've got no access to the website, I'm afraid. I could probably contact the company direct, although I think the boss might be a friend or associate of the non-payer. Grrrrr. If I get nowhere over the next week, I'll start by taking a look at small claims. Cheers again.

Get Ling involved.

Do it straight away ..most firms when faced with a letter from a court pay up very swiftly... ..especially if it's highlighted that it may also affect their future credit worthiness..

Late paying clients are a real irritation.
I've been fortunate and never had to go legal (although I have threatened not to turn up the following week if I wasn't paid, a course of action unfortunately not available to you).
If you do want to go legal, first thing to do is to write a Letter Before Action as the court will want to see that you have done this.
If that doesn't resolve the issue (and it generally does) then go to Small Claims.

I'm in a very similar line of business and we often work without contracts, it's just not practical for smaller jobs and my understanding is that an email conversation will suffice as evidence in legal terms.

Our worst payer has been a very well-known media conglomerate, through incompetence rather than malice. I usually get it sorted by going direct to accounts payable and being charming.

In this case, a "letter before action" may focus your customer's mind though...
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/

Are you going to pay me or should I approach your client?

Small claims court it's 80 quid to start proceedings and more if they wish to defend and legal fees start accruing , decide if it's worth it , the sum recovered you won't be able to claim costs if it's a business claim from memory like you could , though I stand to be corrected.

Keep calling, if they don't pick up try calling from another number. How long have you been waiting, weeks, months? Some people are just really bad at business but don't meant to fob anyone off. If you do get in contact ask when they are going to pay and remark that if you don't receive settlement of the invoice by that date that you will have choice but to take the matter further.

If you don't get the payment by that date, send them an email saying that you are going to get a debt collection agency involved, sometimes that just pushes them.

If their job isn't finished yet, which it sounds like, then they might be holding off payment until it is finished and they have been paid. I appreciate this is a bit off as your job is complete so your payment is due but it is pretty normal practice IME. I've had this several times now.

More recently I've been taking 50% up front for this sort of work as at least that means I'm not out of pocket. Most seem happy with this and make that payment pretty quickly. The second payment is often still slow.

Last year, a researcher from "Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away!" phoned, looking for stories.

Fortunately, I was unable to help, as my all clients pay by monthly Standing Order (not appropriate for one-off contracts, obviously).

Wee is their shoes?

It does make you wonder how many companies (or individuals) are suffering from cash-flow issues, because the company/individual above them in the chain is taking the p*ss by effectively using them as a 0% credit source.

How much does this affect the economic engine of the nation?

It's the run up to Christmas - IME small companies like to hold on to their money (especially sole-traders), as there's a two week period coming up where no one pays you!

And a personal visit always helps move things along - not in an aggressive way, but it's harder for them to ignore face to face.

You could always attempt to sell the debt on.

I've only every had one non-payer, for copywriting, coincidentally. They began replying to my emails remarkably quickly once I told them that unless they paid up pronto I would, regrettably, be adding a late-payment fee to the invoice.

I've only experienced one bad payer, an architect. Invoiced him then chased it up for a couple of months and got nowhere. Then sent a statement for the full amount with something along the lines of "If full payment is not received within xx days of the above date, legal proceedings to recover the debt will commence without further notice" written on it (Or something like that. In red for extra dramatic effect). Then, after still not getting paid after however many days it was, I went here:
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
which is basically an online small claims procedure for smaller debts. Architect soon coughed up after that.

What Dudie and Brown* said

Legal sounding letter showing you mean business, also detailing the exorbitant interest rate and fees you’ll be adding on. They’ll soon cough up. It’s always just people trying it on. Once you get serious, they’re attitude changes

I did once visit a non-paying clients offices and royally kick off, and refused to leave until i’d Been payed. But that was mainly because he was a smug, cocky little gobshite, who I loathed from the second I set eyes on him, and he was properly taking the piss. Turned out he owed money all over manchester

* maybe use this as the name of the fictional legal firm you can put on your headed notepaper 😉

I deal with this quite a bit, as I run a small design agency.

If the script was produced without a contract, then the IP for this stays with you until the amount is paid in full.
Then, unless agreed otherwise, i think the IP is transferred to your client. (i'm not a lawyer caveat goes here)

If your client has already shot the film elements, then most of his cost will have been expended already. A quick call to your client to explain how he can't actually use the script will have him re-considering the invoice that's outstanding.

my understanding is that an email conversation will suffice as evidence in legal terms.

This is broadly true. written contracts are no more binding than a 'provable' verbal contract. So, a paper copy is not really needed.

On a few occasions, i have sent a sealed envelope recorded delivery to my lawyer, that contained both a copy of the creative ideas and a newspaper of that day. This ensures that in the event of a dispute, there is a fairly clear record of the timings involved.

After all is said and done, he'll just be stalling so he can be paid before he pays you. Common, but despicable practice.

I had a tenant who thought rent should be lower down her list of priorities than the law says. Anyway, i kept the dialogue open by whatsapp and got her to agree to various things, contract points etc.

Bit sneaky but i was actually building up evidence that she owed the debt and was responsible for some damage. If it had gone to court, which it was about to, it would have been a no brainer.

Cheers, all. I've dealt with plenty of slow payers before and also clients who've only paid up once the job as a whole is complete, not just my bit of the job. This one is different, as another freelancer has recently warned me that he's not been paid either, for work done ages ago. I've waited just over two months (not so unusual - I occasionally have to wait 3 or even 4 months) but when I spoke to the client a couple of weeks ago he apologised profusley and said I'd be paid by that weekend. He said all the right things but was clearly just fobbing me off. Pretty certain he's basically a rogue and that I'll need to take firm action, not just hang in there while he gets his shit together. Anyway, lots of useful stuff here so thanks again, everyone.

I thought once you have invoiced him he has 30 days to pay then you can charge 8% over the current Bank of England base rate?

Wi - the time I paid a personal visit was when I’d had a chat with someone in the same industry the previous evening. When I mentioned I had just done some work for them, she immediately fired back “have you been payed yet?”

I said I hadn’t, and the invoice was way overdue. She then went on to detail the serious form he had for various kinds of dodgy antics

If you’re initial gut feeling is that he’s a rogue, you’re probably right. So it might be worth being a tad more assertive than usual

This guy subsequently ‘rolled’ his company. By that time I’d had my invoice paid. I know many didn’t!

Good luck with it! Keep us posted

I recently had a company owing me £6k for 4 months. I kept getting false promises and fobbed off, although I do know they were struggling with cash flow. I 'think' I would have been paid eventually.

It got to the point where I stopped being nice and told the MD I would be starting proceedings to recover what I was owed. It was paid the next day.

Ltd companies don't like any proceedings being initiated as Companies House get to know about it and so then do all their other clients and suppliers

I think you are probably a little ahead of things with Small Claims Court yet. It is most likely he's not been paid and would rather not be writing your cheque out of his own pocket. Option 1, be open and understanding with him to get him to share the issue. Option 2, tell him you will charge interest (you are entitled to even without a formal contract - google for the rates). Option 3, Send the Letter Before Action. Option 4, Small Claims. If you are in england/wales you can do it online, its only £60 (for this level), and if you win you can add it to the claim. There are no legal costs to worry about - neither party can claim them. BUT to enforce it you might have to pay more which you can also claim back.

[url= https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome ]money claim. gov. uk[/url]

Successfully took Hewlett Packard this way. Paid up and got my costs back. £2.5K

Successful took my mates wife to too (named director as he'd gone pop once). £4k

😀

I've no qualms about taking a non payer to court. I'm not bothered if they won't give me any further work, especially if they're rubbish at paying.

Looks like I'll be using it again for a contractor who owes me £3K 😡

The "he hasn't been paid yet" argument doesn't quite sit right with me...

"Dear landlord/supermarket/utility company, I haven't been paid yet, so I'm not going to pay you, either"

Try that, and see how far you get.

The "he hasn't been paid yet" argument doesn't quite sit right with me

gov.uk has a really simple form for beginning legal action.

When an agency owed me a large chunk of money and had lied to me successively for about 6 months, sending them a link to that page with a "I am about to submit a completed version of this form" message suddenly yielded the money they owed.

They don't like the idea of having a CCJ against them.

This one, I think: https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online

Called him today and he said he's paying tomorrow by BACS. He was perfectly friendly, chilled and apologetic (no surprise there) and has said he'll text when he's done the payment. Just says he's been manically busy and moving house, which I half believe. Also gave me the old "got loads of work coming up for you" line. Let's see what happens. I'll post an update next week.

I had a client this summer who refused to pay for some extra work during her kitchen fitting (decorating a hallway and cloakroom + tiling an extra area of the kitchen in a change of plan). Her argument was that she wouldn't have taken me on in the first place based on the final costs.
Anyway, after much correspondence via email and text, I went round on a Sunday evening to talk face to face while her husband was there. He couldn't defend their standpoint without some embarrassment but the result was that I got about half of the money owed and called it a day.
No arguing or bad temper was involved but meeting them did sort the situation out.

I had this a while back. Price and spec agreed. Sample artwork approved etc. Client went mysteriously quite the very day I delivered it. Emails sent, no reply. No answer. Radio silence. I contacted the mutual friend who had put us in touch, apparently he was just busy...blah blah blah.

Gave him another month at which point I sent him another invoice for double the agreed amount and an explanation that I would charge 100% interest for each additional month and would also be taking him to small claims and since emails were a recognized form of document now our email exchanges would be admissible in court. I also sent copies of the same invoice to his phone, and to his personal email and to his Facebook.

Some spluttering, and excuses and he paid up pretty sharply, then sent some rambling offering to have a sit down and a drink with me and our mutual friend to "explain things" to which I replied that I would strangle him unconscious if I ever saw him again 😈

I had Maureen who was my accounts lady, she was quite an angry little thing and chased debt. Prior co. which was 200 people-ish we had a beautiful moment of cash flow crisis which resulted in me having to go and be very nice to the bank to tide us over. What followed was a concerted effort including some night time door knocking to recover some 7 figure numbers. Unpleasant, esp when you have 200 mouths to feed.

Quick update: he paid up Sunday morning and sent a text to tell me. Not quite sure what I'll do if the future work he's mentioned materialises in the new year - might start asking for a deposit and/or being more rigorous about keeping an email trail to use as possible evidence in case it's ever required. I'll be checking in with the other freelancer he used and hadn't paid, just to see if they've been paid yet (and to give them some encouragement if not). Ah, the joys of freelancing. Good to luck to all you others in similar set-ups.