Free energy! - can I pinch it?

I'm guessing there will be a valid reason why you can't but I love the idea!

Do the calcs first, you might be surprised at how little (harvestable) energy it is anyway.

I've never seen anyone inspecting them or checking the river and I wouldn't be restricting the outlet. They both have a good hydraulic head behind them and the water comes out with some velocity.

I assume rather than permission for using the water coming out to drive your power, it's permission to fix something into their bank that you'd be wanting. I less you could have something suspended across from your side?

If you go legal there'll be all sorts of EA /local drainage board shenanigans, if you own the bank I'd be tpted to just go guerilla, run the oitput to a heatstore

I don't own the banking opposite and wouldn't be looking for permission for any of this (too much hassle/red tape) but I can't stand looking out of our window at untapped energy!
Kinda curious what the penalty would be for getting 'caught'?

Kinda curious what the penalty would be for getting ‘caught’?

I would guess that it would be made to remove your stuff.

I remember seeing some really small hydro generators on TV, aimed at farmers and small holders in the Highlands, about twice the size of a shoe box and the idea was you put them in the run off locations on the hills.

Do you own the other embankment.

Could you dig a small lade feeding a pond and create your own outlet.

One day there will be someone like me who will come along, examine it and write a report on the pipe and comment on the obstruction to the watercourse.

it would only be stealing it if someone was already harvesting it and you disconnected their equipment to add yours. That's not the case here, you're picking up something that otherwise is being wasted.

As long as you aren't creating a nuisance / obstructing the water flow I can't see a problem. Worst case as above when finally someone inspects the pipe they'll ask you to remove it or officialise it (put your contact details on the equipment so they don't just remove and confiscate)

Well, legally you'd need an abstractuon licence for the water and flood defence consent for the structures as well as the cable in the river bed as a minimum. You'd also be into habitats regulation assessments and hydraulic modelling and youd need the written consent of the landowner and riparian owner.........

Do you own the other embankment.

Could you dig a small lade feeding a pond and create your own outlet.

One day there will be someone like me who will come along, examine it and write a report on the pipe and comment on the obstruction to the watercourse.

I don't own the embankment shown in the pics, I've unofficially adopted it and have tidied the area, removed Himalayan balsom and done some planting. I was going to use the existing outlets but with a pelton type turbine bolted to the concrete foundation/buttresses.

Well, legally you’d need an abstractuon licence for the water and flood defence consent for the structures as well as the cable in the river bed as a minimum. You’d also be into habitats regulation assessments and hydraulic modelling and youd need the written consent of the landowner and riparian owner………

yeah.......its not going to happen is it?

Well, legally you’d need an abstractuon licence for the water and flood defence consent for the structures as well as the cable in the river bed as a minimum. You’d also be into habitats regulation assessments and hydraulic modelling and youd need the written consent of the landowner and riparian owner………

The EA is a strange beast, they would do everything they could to stop someone doing something like this, probably quite rightly as it will probably cause some issues we don't realise.

However, what ever harm this would cause it is absolutely nothing compared to the thousands of tons of shit they are pumping into the sea and rivers.

legally you’d need an abstractuon licence for the water

See, this is something that I just don’t understand;

<strong class="Latn headword" lang="en">abstraction (<i>countable and uncountable</i>, <i>plural</i> <b class="Latn form-of lang-en p-form-of" lang="en">abstractions</b>)

1. The act of abstracting, separating, withdrawing, or taking away; withdrawal; the state of being taken away. <span class="defdate">[First attested around 1350 to 1470.]</span><sup id="cite_ref-SOED_1-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> <span class="HQToggle">quotations ▼</span>
   1. <span class="ib-brac">(</span><span class="ib-content">euphemistic</span><span class="ib-brac">)</span> The taking surreptitiously for one's own use part of the property of another; purloining. <span class="defdate">[First attested around 1350 to 1470.]</span><sup id="cite_ref-SOED_1-1" class="reference">[1]</sup>
   2. <span class="ib-brac">(</span><span class="ib-content">engineering</span><span class="ib-brac">)</span> Removal of water from a river, lake, or aquifer.

If you’re introducing a turbine into an existing flow of water, without redirecting the flow into a pond or another channel, then you’re not taking anything away, the flow is effectively not obstructed or removed.
As for the euphemistic meaning, purloining it, well, someone might take a dim view, but again the water is being allowed to carry on flowing into the major watercourse, nothing has been taken away.

Requiring a licence to generate electricity using a turbine on a watercourse that’s on your own property is taking the piss, quite frankly.

If you’re introducing a turbine into an existing flow of water, without redirecting the flow into a pond or another channel, then you’re not taking anything away, the flow is effectively not obstructed or removed.

Except that by introducing the turbine your altering the dynamics of the flow and are indeed introducing an obstruction.

Except that by introducing the turbine your altering the dynamics of the flow and are indeed introducing an obstruction.

Technically, yes, but in practical terms, it’s no more an obstruction than a tree branch or a clump of reeds that has grown or been swept downstream. It’s a drain, the introduction of a turbine won’t cause any significant backing up of the flow, because it’s downhill with a fair degree of pressure due to gravity.
I’m not an engineer or hydrologist, but my layman’s understanding doesn’t see any issues.

Now, if it was a natural watercourse, like a river or stream, with a fairly low pressure, and which would require the construction of a weir or dam, then I can see how all sorts of issues arise, with planning, etc.

Looks like land drainage outlets to me.

If you can do it without restricting the flows then all good in terms of up stream flooding. The problem with that is you do not know what the design flows are to prevent said up stream flooding...

Reckon, if you don't cause any flooding the only penalty would be remove it and don't put it there again.

Not sure I'd fancy the cable across the river though, that's gonna come down at some point!

Loving this idea Op. How much energy are you expecting to generate? I'm picturing lots of effort and a long wire up the garden powering a flickering bulb in the garage. Tell me I'm wrong. 😂

Not sure I’d fancy the cable across the river though, that’s gonna come down at some point!

I'd probably hang and tension a steel woven wire across and tie the electrical cable to that (I'm an engineer with access to cable/rope/hardware etc). Or just chuck the cable on the river bed!

How much energy are you expecting to generate?

I'm a back of fag packet type engineer so I don't really know what amount of energy that head/velocity/flow rate of water contains.

New Mills have a hydro in the Torrs. It generates c 240,000kWh/year. So like this but smaller and sneakier, yeah?

New Mills have a hydro in the Torrs. It generates c 240,000kWh/year. So like this but smaller and sneakier, yeah?

we were in Pitlochry / loch tummel recently - the whole area is hydro generation.

Mine would be a miniature stealth version!

https://www.fruugo.co.uk/micro-turbine-hydro-generator-50w-15v-spiral-water-generator-permanent-magnet-wh-uk/p-111167956-234582535?language=en&ac=croud&asc=pmax&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtbqdBhDvARIsAGYnXBN2hZESOtIZNRxcC8p_Y8wUotcPD6dUvlv5qYGBKNG4-DA-3SNQV30aAoP-EALw_wcB

Something like that pushed into the outlet could work. Whether it would impede the ability of the drainage pipe to convey and cause a backwater effect in the 3rd party land would depend on the upstream pressure head. Another issue is blockage of whatever turbine you install and the impact of this on the pipe discharge.

Any impact of whatever you install on the receiving watercouse would be negligible unless you started building headwalls that reduced cross sectional flow area.

So like this...

No, those archimedies screw generators are for low head pressure, large volume flows. RNO wants a Pelton wheel, which is for high pressure and velocity directed flow.

I reckon this thread is good enough to hold up in a court of law and say "STW said it was okay to do it!"

I'll report back if and whenever I get round to do something about it.

Water company might have a say in this.
Long time back, but may still be relevant. A friend lived in an old water mill and the sluice ran under their Kitchen/outhouse. There was a turbine and generator that could take some of the water to make magic electron based energy for the house.
However, if they opened the sluice and ran the generator their water rates went up. Up by so much it wasn't worth it, once electric bill savings and generator maintenance was factored in.
So, as all water is 'owned' by your local water company, they might fussy about it, even though you are not impacting them one little bit.

Do you own the land further up the embankment?

What if your turbine(s) were attached to a floating structure, tethered to a point on your property and just making used of the river's normal flow? No permanent structures or groundworks, nothing to significantly affect the flow of the water, easily hauled out in 30 seconds if someone were to object?

Much easier to ask forgiveness than blessing then I reckon.

Keep it simple, shaped foam float supporting a ducted turbine, turning a generator, any leccy generated sent to a leisure batter or two and put through an inverter for use, keep it separate from the mains for now... Wouldn't make as much juice as harnessing that outlet but might be able to run a small server or PC or something from it? A low impact "micro-hydro-electric generation" concept, sounds like a Fun little shed project to me.

A turbine is an obstruction, if it doesn’t obstruct the water flow then it won’t generate anything useful. You can’t just stick one into a flow and expect it to generate a lot of power, if it’s hard work to turn the blades then the water will just go round the outside and if it’s easy to turn the blades then you’re not getting much power.

Real hydro schemes need a moderate (at least) head of water to drive them. How far are you going to back up that outflow? And what happens when a branch comes down?

You can get ~100W *much* easier from a solar panel. And it scales much better too.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/harnessing-hydroelectric-power

Give it a go . Pelton wheels are usually enclosed, with a water jet so you might need to invest in some decent equipment. Could be worth a few KW though.

Always good to post about stealth work on a public forum...🤣

Can you fix a turbine onto the end of a pole with the cable running back along the pole. Stick the pole in your side of the river and if the turbine 'just happened' to dangle in the waterflow on the opposite side then 'it might' be generating you some free power but would not be touching anyone else's land

but would not be touching anyone else’s land

The river bed is someone elses land, the water is 'controlled water' regulated by the EA. In the OPs position i think its a non-starter without the landowners consent.

Full disclosure: we're considering putting a guerilla installation in our beck but if our neighbours chucked one in on our stretch of the beck i might not be impressed.

PS even an armoured cable wouldnt last 5 minutes on the bed of that river, it'd have to be buried or suspended, latter wouldnt be great for "stealth"

You taking energy out of the river so, yes, you'll need permission. I can't remember the name of the authority, the waterways commision or something like that- it may have changed since my masters anyway. And also, as above, it's surprising how little you'll get out of it- or, to put it another way, how energy-profligate our lifestyles are!

Speaking as a civil engineer who has designed, gained consent for, managed the construction of, and commissioned hydro schemes can I just say this is so airy I can't be bothered commenting.

can I just say this is so airy I can’t be bothered commenting.

But you just did.

MartyT on YouTube has a turbine running off a similar bore pipe, cost buttons as it's an old washing machine motor doing the generating and runs his house off of it. Has quite a head on it though, filters at the top and different nozzles to manage the pressure at the bottom.

I'd say its certainly possible but without knowing the head and flow rate, access to the inlet for filtration and some way of properly mounting and accessing the outlet you're on a hiding to nothing. Which is a shame as its exactly where we should be focusing micro generation efforts.

Just do it.

Never try never know.

I used to follow an off grid blogger who had a number of micro turbines. Long story short, he spent most of his life traipsing back and forth to pick leaves out of them.