Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts work
Wasn't that in the Lancet article but hidden behind a paywall? Remember just because we can't see it doesn't mean it's not there!
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts work
Just searched it for you.
It's from:
Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse - Prof David Nutt, Leslie A King, PhD, William Saulsbury, MA, Prof Colin Blakemore, FRS
That image appears to be from here
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The numbers appear to come from the last few pages of this report
Which given it is a house of commons report may have some bias in how they want drugs classified
or maybe not, who knows
actually, the report is probably a bit naughty. The table in it gives the mean value of various 'dependancies' including pleasure, psychological and physical dependence. Cocaine gets such high value by being having high pleasure and psychological dependence even though the physical dependence is very low at 1.3. Pretty much as people on here have been saying
Full numbers here https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/Vespiary/talk/files/6416-615_Pharmacology_Therapeutics_NUTT_Rational_Scale_Harm_Drugs_Misuse07ea.pdf
i hate averages
Junkyard » its not simply they take drugs ergot they MUST
Trippy, dude.
So the data for Tom's graph, which tj is convinced goes contrary to Dr Nutt's view actually comes from a paper co-authored by Dr Nutt.
Never mind the coke, someone's on crack.
yes, but it shows why infographics aren't always as helpful as they purport to be
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts workJust searched it for you.
It's from:
Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse - Prof David Nutt, Leslie A King, PhD, William Saulsbury, MA, Prof Colin Blakemore, FRS
I've just spat coffee on the new carpet
Well guys, you spotted it.
[img] 
[/img]
Trippy, dude.
😆 and 😳
Ergo
Who's got the largest e-peen aside, two things jump out at me here:
1) This wife is leaving suspected drugs lying around where any munchkin could go "ooh, sherbet fountain!" That would be my primary concern above and beyond any behavioural issues.
2) There appears to be a direct correlation between forum users who take a lot of drugs, and forum users who talk a lot of bollocks. Make of that what you will.
Who said lots - or even if any of us take any? Saying you like drugs, is a lot different to saying you like a bit of heroin. 😛
Alcohol and coffee are nice though. 😀
Funny how you assumed I was talking about you.
Makes you think.
Oh, so you know some people personally here - and know how many lines they do?
Is TJ a Glaswegian smack head then or something?
Also - it's because I am acutely aware that I do indeed - talk vast amounts of utter bollocks.
My 6 year old son arrived at rugby training singing the chorus to Cocaine Blues this morning!!!
If you can have the kids, and want them, then all you need to do is persuade her that this is the best solution.
Why not start with the Easter hols, and suggest that you'll bring them over for her at the (long) weekend.
If she can only manage with needing Au Pairs and you can manage without (or with just after-school clubs etc) then it would seem the better solution - irrelevant of any drugs.
FWIW I went through divorce +20 y/o when my kids were little (2 & 3), no way could I have managed with them as I worked all over Europe and away most week nights - and no way would I have tried.
[b][TANNOY] [/b]It's all bollocks[b] [TANNOY][/b]
FWIW, thanks to the power of STW's admin panel I know who the OP is, and it's not a big-hitter account I'd have associated with trolling the forum.
Cycling was left off that graph, Needs to be near the top based on my experience (and harm done!)
OP, I hope your discussion is constructive. Avoid the nuclear option for as long as possible.
Thanks Cougar - yes absolutely not trolling here. Seperate login for obvious reasons - thanks for allowing that.
It's a genuinely quite horrible situation I'm trying to deal with without turning it into a genuinely extremely horrible one, so the range of feedback is useful.
The random pissing contest going along in parallel is in equal parts amusing, massively annoying but also is keeping the thread live on page 1 so is increasing the opportunity for folks to spot it and give input.
It's a mental health situation we all apply our own morals and prejudices to.
Ask for help sooner rather than later for everyones benefit. Friends, family and professionals.
Educate the children too as much as they need to know.
I'm not sure that you can clearly differentiate between physical and psychological dependency,
Lots of highly-qualified and experienced professionals from multiple disciplines must be wrong then.
Who's got the largest e-peen aside
Me! Me! Me! 2.47" root to tip (If I stretch it a bit).
power of STW's admin panel
It looks like the Enterprise 1701 post-motion picture refit doesn't it! Go on admit it! 😀
Lots of highly-qualified and experienced professionals from multiple disciplines must be wrong then.
You mean like
?
The fairly nonsensical and semantic distinction between physical and psychological is a hangover from the time psychologists thought they knew more than neuroscientists.
Guys - I suggest you drop this as I have. Tom is dunning kruger in action.
he googled stuff ( clearly he didn't actually know anything about the topic) to try to show I was wrong quoting one study that actually proved me right, another that was withdrawn for conflict of interest and misquoted others then jumped all over the thread with glee because in his mind he had "won"
Best ignored
We have helped a troll wreck a thread from someone in a very difficult situation asking for help.
I am sorry I got involved in the spat. IMO the best bet is to let Tom have his "victory" and let this thread die
I didn't say there wasn't debate. I said "Lots of highly-qualified and experienced professionals". Not all of whom publish research.
Perhaps I was suggesting you were writing off a lot of credible expertise rather blithely...
You seem to have a huge need to argue and dominate debate and as I have pointed out before - it is frankly getting tiresome. Just give it a rest for a while. You are not doing yourself any favours.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but it sounds like reefer madness.
Whatever that is.
In my mind he won too
I was mostly incredulous at how you could so lightly and casually get it wrong on something so important and imply that coke isn't much of an issue because it's not addictive.
I believe these things should be legalised, but like sticking your fingers in plug sockets - people should be educated correctly about the potential harm they can do to themselves. They should then be free to make that choice.
When I was younger, I got into big trouble with speed. In my case, it was addictive. After a couple of years of battering between an 1/8 and a 1/4 a day (plus pills and tabs on the weekend), it was coming off the powder that I found hardest.
It may not meet the definition of addiction, but i couldn't see the point of life without speed. I had to leave my job, get rid of the circle of friends I was with and just sweat it out for three weeks.
Not sure what that adds, just that everything isn't always like you learn it in the classroom or on the job.
I will just come in one last time. I did not say it was no issue. I clearly said the opposite. But I did point out that as its not addictive in the true sense of the word its not an issue to stop unlike benzos or Heroin or alcohol
A friend of mine is dead from cocaine, alcohol and tobacco
You seem to have a huge need to argue and dominate debate and as I have pointed out before - it is frankly getting tiresome. Just give it a rest for a while. You are not doing yourself any favours.
Rarely a truer word typed.
It looks like the Enterprise 1701 post-motion picture refit doesn't it! Go on admit it!
If only.
It may not meet the definition of addiction
The definition of [i]physical [/i]addiction.
Doing drugs like drinking is not bad per se. Doing it to the extent of failing to provide safety and care for the kids is bad.
Leaving medication lying in a accessible position in something the kids see sweets stored in is asking for trouble. The bag of drugs is further cause for concern.
The description of her lifestyle says she needs to stay up late and get off her head. Whether this is just work stress or a combination of other things as well, eg divorce and being a single parent, is haddock to say.
If she is not an addict, and is a recreational user she may be able to get the perspective on this situation that she risks losing her job and her kids or worse. You can help with both by helping her get on an even keel.
She sounds like she has drive and determination in her career, so if she can actually acknowledge the gravity of where she is at then she can turn it around.
It may work coming from you, but does she have a good female friends you can confide in, so as to be able to have an ally you that will also try and persuade her to get herself sorted.
This will only change if she acknowledges the problem and does something about it. You need all the help you can to do this.
Do you know anyone shady that could say what the white powder is? It could be any drug from coke to mama, speed or pretty much anything. You may be able to understand both the side affects and the after effects better if you knew.
Also keep a diary of all the crap so if goes totally Pete Tong you have something for the lawyers to work with.
Helping out with the kids may well help but may also give the freedom to go totally off the rails.
Talked with her last night.
She admitted this one, claimed it was the one and only time.
After arriving at the house I also found another 3 empty bags effectively in her handbag. Discussed it with her - she admitted it was cocaine - reluctantly admitted to the first one ("first time - didnt like it - was a mistake"). Claims the others arent hers - belonged to visitors to the house - when they did it (together) they put the empty bags in her handbag. Pretty unconvoncing right.
Unsurprisingly the offer to look after the kids during the week for a few weeks was refused - however this has got it all out on the table and I hope this has given her the realisation she needs to sort herself out - talking about the whole lifestyle /kids care thing not just the Coke.
Feeling pretty burned out - will definitely try to get out for a ride after work to clear the head.
Hmmmm that's a discussion you had right there.
Me, i'd be asking why the hell she's having visitors round doing Coke parties with kids in the house.... That's pretty crappy parenting right there and VERY unacceptable IMO.
Good luck, i think you've been VERY restrained up to now..
Yeah, and just to publicly address the PM you sent too - apologies for previous post. I drew the wrong conclusions, which is a bit naff on my part.
Best of luck sorting everything out.
Well, you seem to have got your confirmation that it was a powder that you don't want your kids getting their hands on.
And the assertion that other people in the house did the other 3 bags is, if anything, more concerning. Were the kids around then?
The refusal to let you have the kids for a spell is a warning sign. If she needs a break why would she not take it? It looks like a refusal to look at her situation objectively.
I would be more concerned than ever.
Christ knows why you've come here for advice
Thanks Bearneccities - no worries at all - the internet is full of nonesense and trolls so some healthy scepticism is fine with me.
I agree re the group thing - more not less concerning!
She's been called out on it now and is with family during the next week rather than alone with them. One family member is now aware of my concerns and is constructively "on side" so will keep an eye out and I'll monitor to see if this provokes turning a corner.
I would be concerned at that set of excuses but perhaps she needs some to to get her head round the idea that the only way for her to salvage something from this is to be completely open and is ( understandably) trying to minimise her problems. She may be scared of losing the kids altogether hence not wanting to pass parenting responsibilities over
The behaviours you describe in your opening post could well be signs of heavy usage although could also be stress related but I would go with heavy usage.
Dialogue has started and thats a ray of light here. Don't give up on the dialogue yet. Give her a bit of time
Try putting down what you feel , think and see on paper? Less confrontational that way if she can read it and consider answers without you being there? Again I would go with "hurt, saddened and concerned" rather than angry and punitive 'cos IMO its a more productive approach
Perhaps being a bit heavier with her over protection of the kids might be useful? Not to use it as a threat but again taking the worried and concerned line. ie " I am really worried about the kids in all this. I do not want to take them away from you altogether but I think they should stay with me for a couple of weeks until you sort yourself out, you clearly are under a lot of stress and this will help all of us"?
However I would consider that answer from her to be one step closer to taking a hardline approach. Don't threaten her with that but neither can yo go on with a softly softly approach for an indefinite period.
Send me a PM if you want / if my postings make any sense to you / if there is more I can do
good luck
From the sounds of it she's got a big problem which in turn will give you an even bigger problem.
I would still seek legal advice even if at first you decide not to act on it. If/When the situation carries on or worsens you will need to go into action quickly for the kids sake.
Dreadful situation to be in. Stay strong.
I skipped through a lot....but this does make a lot of sense.
Leaving aside the substance issue, you will need to tread v carefully with the children issue.The andecedants of this split arent in the public forum, but therse things are nearly always bitter and sad.
The children can be seen and used as currency, possession and control of this currency can give one parent a lot of power over the other. Your wife may strongly resist losing control of the kids as they become a basis for power over you or finances, or just generally getting her own way. They can also be used in a punative way by denying access by one parent to another.
Just my thoughts from a v difficult divorce. My ex was a semi-functioning alcoholic, and despite crazy violence visited on me when she had been drinking, it was impossible to reason with her and get her to do what was best for the kids. She used access to them as a weapon and a 'cash machine' to fund her life. She didnt actually want the kids, but she knew i did, so they became a weapon.....
[b]@ the OP ....
I would be very very careful of taking any steps can't be reversed. [/b]
Bringing in social services etc. is a fairly irreversible decision that can easily backfire.
Equally don't expect the ex to act logically either... be careful of pushing her into irreversible decisions.
Ultimately I think (based on legal advice I've been given by a family member who is a family practice specialist) that any route that may lead to family court will be very very highly biased towards a mother...
In his words... "if a mother say's what I tell her to I can practically guarantee custody regardless" and once that is done courts will be unlikely to actually intervene if the mother doesn't keep to the terms
There are no stats because family court records are sealed... so this is the view of a family practice solicitor who knows lots of other family practice solicitors.
One other thing I'd suggest that I don't think has been mentioned yet,
Start a diary. Record everything you find, what conversations you've had and when. You'll hopefully never need it, but if you do you'll be glad you did.
The behaviour described by the OP doesn't really sound like the result of coke, unless of course shes caning it constantly. In which case the biggest tell tale sign is nose irritation, constant runny nose etc etc
plenty of folks I know with kids like a sniff at the weekend occasionally, they are perfectly good parents that hold down good jobs. That said they are otherwise mentally stable
Cocaine and mental health issues don't mix well
[quote=Cougar"]One other thing I'd suggest that I don't think has been mentioned yet,
Start a diary. Record everything you find, what conversations you've had and when. You'll hopefully never need it, but if you do you'll be glad you did.
Sadly another truth....
[quote="tpbiker"]The behaviour described by the OP doesn't really sound like the result of coke, unless of course shes caning it constantly. In which case the biggest tell tale sign is nose irritation, constant runny nose etc etc
plenty of folks I know with kids like a sniff at the weekend occasionally, they are perfectly good parents that hold down good jobs. That said they are otherwise mentally stable
Cocaine and mental health issues don't mix well
Who knows what is actually being sold as cocaine ... but without the arguments people who are coping well enough don't forget they have baggies in their handbag when visiting the ex.
There is also the whole question of judgement and how this might impinge on situations the children may be put into. I don't mean only whilst taking whatever is in the baggies but scoring it as well.
[quote="frustrateddad"]She's been called out on it now and is with family during the next week rather than alone with them. One family member is now aware of my concerns and is constructively "on side" so will keep an eye out and I'll monitor to see if this provokes turning a corner.
It's a good start ... but people do lie especially regarding addictive substances and if they feel cornered on this and these lies can quickly then get out of control.
I think your doing the best thing already... just saying be careful on how hard you push... better to keep a proper dialog than end up pushing too hard.
Talked with her last night.
Well done. And I mean that seriously.
Despite somewhat tense discussions last night (also resulted in a follow-on discussion about what went wrong with our relationship - managed to avoid an argument...just) I heard from her this morning
Firstly a bright and cheery phone call for the kids to say "Hello - we're going on our holidays" (a few days away with her family) and asking if I would like to come join for a night this week.
Secondly a text message saying she's been thinking and I am I still interested in going to couples counseling (I always wanted to - she didn't).
Overall I think this is a REALLY positive sign - counseling is probably the single best thing that could happen.
My inner pessimist is cautious that she might be throwing a sweetener out to calm things down for a while and ward off possible escalation whilst she's got the most exposure.
The recent comments about keeping a diary of events - yes I agree - I've started doing that, will be stepping it up from now on.
Finally - yes I agree about the family court siding towards the mother - my guess is that they'd have to be in demonstrable danger before I'd have much of a chance if we go that route. It would also be horrible for the kids - could even land them in care in the worst nightmare scenario. I just don't want to go there unless it's a last resort which I think we're a long way away from.
OP you are keeping a diary of events arnt you? If not start now.
My sister in law went through a similar ish thing with her ex and booze, but in court apparently he could sweet talk the hind legs off anyone.
Apparently the daily diary she had kept made a massive differenc.
Edit: OP has reponded whilst I was writing. If you want the marriage to survive then definitely worth going to sessions.... so long as everything is openly discussed.
Is counselling and getting back with her really sounding like a great prospect ?
To me thats good news. Very good news. A pinch of salt / a bit of scepticism is a fine attitude to take but approach things in a positive lets move forward style and you never know - a good outcome might happen.
My inner pessimist is cautious that she might be throwing a sweetener out to calm things down for a while and ward off possible escalation whilst she's got the most exposure.
Possible, but you are going in with your eyes open. Has to be worth a try so good luck.
Rather than go to counselling, why don't you just get her to sign up to this forum? Given the amount of experts on here I reckon all your issues could be sorted overnight.
OP.
Hope the counselling etc work for you.
Can I suggest you be circumspect about what you put on this forum. I'm not on here much but my wife and kids take the piss out of me for "being on SingleTrack again".
It's unlikely anyone on the forum would work out who you are from your new username, but if your wife was motivated and knew anything at all about your internet habits or forum interests then a search for one obvious word would take her straight to this thread...
UNlikely as the courts are very unlikely to decide neither of you are fit parents and its very very hard to remove parental responsibilitycould even land them in care in the worst nightmare scenario
Hope the counselling works out for you and your family.
It's unlikely anyone on the forum would work out who you are from your new username, but if your wife was motivated and knew anything at all about your internet habits or forum interests then a search for one obvious word would take her straight to this thread...
I don't think it would matter as the only conclusions anybody could draw about the OP from his posting on here would be that he is a concerned father and partner who is dealing with a very tricky situation with great awareness and compassion .
My inner pessimist is cautious that she might be throwing a sweetener out to calm things down for a while and ward off possible escalation whilst she's got the most exposure.
I think your inner pessimist is right. Sadly.
Keeping a diary is brilliant advice. I would be cautious as you are already OP over the couples counselling and stuff sweetener.
Look after yourself and the children and best of luck.
J
Thanks everyone. Re what's posted here that's a good point. I've been conscious of that. My identity should not be clear to anyone from normal posting and that's right. I'm no expert but think that there might be libel/slander type issues to consider should me or my wife become named / readily identifiable. However - should she read this it will be clear to her who I'm talking about.
I THINK that nothing I've written is more of less what her and I have talked about - apart from some second-guessing of current/future intentions. Hell, it might even help to direct her here to give her an insight into my thoughts and to see some 3rd party viewpoints. Having said that I will now be going back through my postings to check....
Bit of an aside, but .... I just sent this as a PM to a forum member who sent me a PM offering support - having written it I thought why not post it here - it's not just for this situation but is one of the reasons why I personally find forums such as this fantastic.
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Thanks for the support! I really appreciate your and everyones help and wishes on this.
Random opening up as it's a PM... thinking about the question on the thread "why come here for advice"
I know that I think better when alone, quietly or when removed from personal interactions - so here I can be reflective, confident, forward, timid, aggressive, listen a lot etc as the need suits .... In person less so - I tend to switch between over-shy and over-aggressive. Maybe somewhere low down on the autistic spectrum - maybe just "a bloke" - maybe just "an engineer', maybe "just human" - I don't know. Either way I know that through the forum my inter-personal skills are enhanced such that I listed to others views including those I don't agree with and those that in real life would make me angry. Those are often the best views to listen to.
At work I'm an Engineer - and this is the way that we debate, discuss and agree on things - my mind works this way.
In person with personal matters I tend to get carried away, sometimes angry, sometimes hurt - sometimes am too aggressive and so the other person goes quiet - am often overwhelmed etc. That doesn't happen here.
So... that's my personal reason why I come here for advice - that and the wide range of voices.
Actually, thinking about it - I'll copy & paste this on the thread too.
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A month on, any updates? Is it going well?
