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Read my post how has it insulted you?
It has simply said you were factually wrong to claim there is no collateral damage from bombs from the French air bombing campaign;it will include collateral damage as they are blunt instruments.
Wowsers...
Is this true? Stay classy Dave, you stay classy.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Explains some of the STW right wing nutjobs' opinions here though.
PS it was very charming insult you used that gave another lovely insight into the kind of person you are.
Will you call me a mong for this reply
Hmm, is observing a silence in honour of eight terrorists who were caught in the act whilst trying to blow up a police station not an expression of 'sympathy' then?
Like I said, it does explain a lot of stuff. Thanks for helping further.
1. I think you have confused derision with insulting.
2. As it was a reply to you having called me special I dont think you can play the "offended by insulting " card as it was pretty tame compared to your post.
Anyway clearly I have upset so I will withdraw but the point remains the French bombing will have collateral damage its inevitable and this is a bit sad.
.
Yes but if you walk away ISIS are going to kill innocents anyways and as for collateral damage this was reported in the Guardian
“The number of civilian casualties from Russian bombardment is far higher than the number caused by American and French airstrikes,” said Wael Aleji, spokesman for the Syrian Network for Human Rights.
Even the Guardian note that air strikes have been effective in pushing back ISIS and limiting ISIS effectiveness.
Darcy removed his nutjob comment. 😀
Don't worry Darcy I would not accuse you of possibly calling me a Mong based on that.
If you had read my post that was pulled you would have read my explanation for calling you special.
Hmm, is observing a silence in honour of eight terrorists who were caught in the act whilst trying to blow up a police station not an expression of 'sympathy' then?
Idk it might be. Which police station are we talking about?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/how-many-moderate-ground-troops-are-there-in-syria-and-are-they-strong-enough-to-defeat-isis-a6756226.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/how-many-moderate-ground-troops-are-there-in-syria-and-are-they-strong-enough-to-defeat-isis-a6756226.html[/url]
Interesting piece in the Independent regarding 70,000 local ground troops.
I cannot see what difference we can make to mobilizing these 70,000 to fight as a coherent army against ISIS considering:-
1) We don't really know who they are.
2) We are not in dialogue with them.
3) They are so spread out.
4) They are as engaged in a struggle against Assad as ISIS
5) Having coherent strategy with them will surely cause friction with Russia.
6) They have little or no training
I don't know how we can consider this with out any of the problems above being dealt with.
Coalition seems to HOPE that ISIS can be bombed into a weak position and then apparently good guys will step in to finish them off and fill the void.
Effectively an American drive to create a coherent local ground force resulted in 4 recruits!
Remember how Western allies were covertly aiding moderate Syrian Rebels to topple Assad a few years back, before ISIS was ever mentioned...
@Konabunny, he's referring to the Loughall Ambush. And, being Ninfan, is ignoring that the silence referred to was for the [i]9[/i] men killed by the SAS- yes, 8 IRA members, and also an innocent bystander who they shot 15 times, without warning. (and his brother, who was shot 14 times but survived- though never received so much as an apology). A fine example of the clear black-and-white, goodies-and-baddies nature of terrorism and the cautious restraint of our armed forces while dealing with terrorists
(This throws back slightly to the "shoot to kill" thing of a couple of weeks back- the story of Loughall, the ambush, and the subsequent investigation is pretty fascinating. Be interesting what the new inquest comes up with)
Ah, so Jezza was honouring a minutes silence for the innocent bloke (who unfortunately turned up at the same time as the ASU) was he?
Darcy you used the term "right wing nutjobs" which does not offend me, but you or someone chose to remove it.
If you say otherwise, I know you are a liar.
We do have some knowledge and communication with troops on the ground because US & UK forces have been on the ground also. Plus there are various westerners fighting against ISIS also.
Coalition seems to HOPE that ISIS can be bombed into a weak position and then apparently good guys will step in to finish them off and fill the void.
This does seem to be the "plan". Ignoring the fact of course that this (at it's heart) a sectarian war, and it will be a scramble for power if ISIS has been removed from the stage, let's hope they've all seen the PM's power point.
I note that we've come to the tacit conclusion with the Russians that Assad will stay (as ISIS has largely replaced Assad as "the enemy", this is now the story that'll be spun)
DD post still says right wing nutjobs as its still there so I am not sure why you would want to call anyone a liar
Junkyard you are correct, my apologies DD I am indeed wrong.
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".
in SO many ways... 😆I am indeed wrong.
The problem is if we say we will be working with a force of 70 thousand ready to tackle IS while we providing air support.
Once IS have been iradicated we have two choices, say thank you before leaving them high and dry at the mercy of the Russians and Assad or help them take on Assad and the Russians.
We need to ether enter into negation with all involved to resolve the civil war in Syria while fighting Isis, or not have anything to do with the 70 thousand and say the civil war is none of our business and we are just here for Isis.
Wowsers...
Is this true? Stay classy Dave, you stay classy.Explains some of the STW right wing nutjobs' opinions here though.
@dd stay classy ... STW nutjobs
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".
Can't see the Tories committing Harim-Kari and spending decades in opposition as a result. Counting the peshmerga I think you can get to that number, plus Russians and Iranians and Assads forces etc ....
As for Salmonds contribution we are firstly standing by our allies and secondly the quality of our forces mean we add more than an incremental 1/11th to the campaign. Part of me wishes the French, assuming the strikes are authorised tomorrow, would point out that Britian voted to assist but the Scots voted very heavily against - so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".Can't see the Tories committing Harim-Kari and spending decades in opposition as a result.
Was that the result of Blair's claim of "WMDs" then?
You really don't think before you type do you?
Counting the peshmerga I think you can get to that number, plus Russians and Iranians and Assads forces etc ....
The Kurds won't be allies with Assad against ISIS
jamba..."right wing" nutjobs*. Do keep up. I realise basic comprehension is difficult for you as you endlessly demonstrate, sometimes three or four times in one page of a thread.
*see also, swivel eyed apologists for child-killing armies.
Assad must stay. Simple.
Stick your (generally speaking but could be you I am referring to) shite stirring nose out of trying to depose Assad.
See, the whole affair started with you (West whoever fueling the situation) adding fuel to fire by applying your softly softly encouraging approach (you know their population cannot handle "freedom") to get rid of Assad ... Ya, know what ... doing so you are actually killing the Syrians by encouraging them to topple Assad.
Even Assad would not kill (his own) people en-mass like the current in-fighting if not for the encouragement from the west.
Ya, as the Syrian shout out frreeddoommm! What they really mean are ... Freedom to beg the west. Freedom to burden others. Freedom with no dignity. Freedom not to die in their own land where they once lived.
All due to the ideal concept of freeddoom imposed on them by the West.
Why are you so eager to feed the world?
Now you feed them ...
Part of me wishes the French, assuming the strikes are authorised tomorrow, would point out that Britian voted to assist but the Scots voted very heavily against - so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
The French own most of the whisky industry so it's unlikely
The Kurds won't be allies with Assad against [s]ISIS[/s] DAESH
You don't need this
If you can tacitly agree to the Kurds holding territory that may lead to a split of Syria then they will be the northern bulwark against Daesh. Getting Assad and the Turks to agree to this is the conundrum
Syria must be split into parts otherwise there will be no end.
Assad with his territory.
Assad opponents (own Syrian people) with their territory.
The Kurds must have their own territory (with S-200 station there).
Once they have agreed on that then they can go after whoever that are not supposed to be there.
How is any of that classy of you @dd ?
@ernie, that's the most significant outcome IMO. The rest of the stuff around investigations / legality etc is a waste of time IMHO, Blair used advice he received and in any case the relevance of that to the decision to invade is minimal as far as I am concerned. Far too many MPs are trying to cover their arses with the line "I relied on the wmd statement when I voted". I never believed the 45 mins or wmd claims so discovering they weren't true was hardly a revelation.
@chew I don't disagree but the Kurdish bit is going to go down like a lead balloon with Turkey and Iraq. Turkey as they are afraid of a Kurdish breakaway in current Turkey and much of the Iraqi oil is in Kurdish territory.
so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
I have to say I pissed up laughing at that
you must be the only person on the planet to have urged economic sanctions against folk for not bombing folks as most folk tend to do sanctions against the war mongers.
It is an interesting moral code by which you operate and at least its consistent with your opposition to sanctions against Israel who do of course kill people at home and abroad. Perhap scotland should do some International assassinations so they can be viewed more positively by yourself?
Sanctions for opposing war.....brilliant.
I think Tony may well be calling you as part of his legal team for the its just sour grapes everyone knew i was lying defence
600 civilian casualties from western bombing so far. (According to chap on radio 4 The World Tonight) But our govts will only admit to 6! Michael Fallon said none at all on Marr show at the weekend
JY French wine industry suffered significantly post Iraq due to US public boycotts. Petty politics from the SNP who would be whining the loudest if there was an attack in Glasgow. They're making a protest vote just like Corbyn used to. If the majority is as suggested at 100-120 they are going to be very much in the minatory view. However it plays to their only,policy objective, another referendum - "we voted against the Tories but Scotland voice was ignored."
@ctk it's tragic but 600 (if true) out of 200,000. Civilians have been getting slaughtered there for 4 years now. Trying to judge the success or not if military action based on the numbers of civilian casualties makes no sense,
which your lets sanction them and respectful explanation cunningly avoided GO JAMBY GO you avoided that trap you spotted.However it plays to their only,policy objective, another referendum - "we voted against the Tories but Scotland voice was ignored."
Facepalm
600 dead is very sad.
Over 2500 have drowned in the med this year and 350000 made it across.
How many of these are Syrian and or drowned fleeing Isis I don't know.
But if we don't take on Isis the death toll will be much higher.
Jambalaya. Even I don't think that SNP argument is one for today. Rather than Scotland not being represented, I reckon labour supporters and party views are not being listened to by MP's wishing to turn one over on their leader.
Germany and China are not currently bombing Syria. Should their exports suffer also?
Glasgow has also suffered a terrorist attack, luckily not damaging.
Bear in mind that Diageo and Ricard Pernod UK are both based in London, as are most UK offices of the distillery owners. This however should be of petty concern. I don't normally go for the heart wrenching video, but saw one tonight reportedly showing the devastation and aftermath of bomb dropping in Syria. Civilians amongst rubble and bodies saying they didn't blow up a Russian plane.
The problem is, we went into Iraq without much of a clue what would happen after Saddam. ISIS was was no more than a twinkle in Bush and Blairs eyes. Saddam was somewhat predictable compared to ISIS.. We have even less of a clue what what comes after ISIS. We could get rid of ISIS, but something will replace it possibly even worse.
I am not a pacifist, but the plan with no credible coordinated troops and opposition should be a non starter, as much as Cameron can wish 70,000 troops from thin air.
Ah yes. The old 'let's bomb the Syrian homeland in order to reduce the numbers of refugees fleeing the Syrian homeland' argument. Completely sound, I see no holes in that one at all... Because what Syria needs is more white hot shrapnel flying through the air.
I reckon labour supporters and party views are not being listened to by MP's wishing to turn one over on their leader.
Surely an MP's job, once elected, is to represent [i]all[/i] their constituents, not just their supporters or party interests (and even then there are arguments about whether party interests are better served in the long term by following the policy of their elected leader rather than the consensus of shadow cabinet members or the wider electorate)
jambalaya - Member
@chew I don't disagree but the Kurdish bit is going to go down like a lead balloon with Turkey and Iraq. Turkey as they are afraid of a Kurdish breakaway in current Turkey and much of the Iraqi oil is in Kurdish territory.
I bet the Turks have been eyeing that piece of liquid nectar for sometime now and they almost got it right until they shot down a MiG-24. 😆 Now they have to play with S-200.
Iraq needs to relinquish some land too if they want to be stabilised.
Both cannot go on killing the Kurdish people.
And stopping the bombing will stop them fleeing?
[url= http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/607782/Islamic-State-ISIS-economy-caliphate-Syrian-refugees-Europe ]refugees fleeing isis[/url]
Defeating Isis and helping establish some stability may.
Surely an MP's job, once elected, is to represent all their constituents, not just their supporters or party interests
Sound, so CMD can represent the 60-odd% of us that didn't vote for him and **** off?
[/b]We do have some knowledge and communication with troops on the ground because US & UK forces have been on the ground also. [b]Plus there are various westerners fighting against ISIS also.
Jesus, so we are expected to rely on a bunch of loners and oddballs who can't even speak Arabic (or Kurdish) and who run around getting in arguments with other foreign weirdos?
Defeating Isis and helping establish some stability may.
Defeating 'ISIS' (or whatever it's being called this week) [i]could[/i] conceivably be possibly militarily (bough it'll take a damn sight more than a few tornadoes and fancy showcase bombs, for sure). Defeating the ideology that spawned ISIS is not going to happen through bombing, and in fact will most probably be catalysed by such actions. As has been said many, many times by people on this thread more eloquent than I.
You can't defeat a martyrdom ideology by creating more martyrs.
seems like theres a lot of jihadi sympathisers in the country
[img] 
[/img]
[url=
Benn[/url]
[url= http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/12/01/im-going-to-****-syria-like-its-a-pigs-head-says-cameron/ ]David Cameron[/url]
Klunk - Member
seems like theres a lot of jihadi sympathisers in the country
Yeah but that's just hysterical left wing reporting from a bunch of pacifist yoghurt knitters who don't understand the capabilities of the Sceptre2000 missile system.
Without a full-scale good old fashioned invasion - boots on the ground in massive strength and supporting armour - with naval back up and air cover, Daesh will not be wiped off the face of the planet as they should be.
So I'd vote against.
These 70,000 'moderate troops' ready to join our noble cause are, just... like..... soooooooo this years '45 minutes to launch WMD's at the the West'.
They only exist in Dave's head
Is there anyone (Dave and Jammers excepted) who actually believes that shit?
If this wasn't so serious it'd be absolutely laughable to try and wheel that out as some kind of justification, while keeping a straight face
In reality it'll amount to 12 people who are ever so fractionally less psychotic than the beheady ones, but still hate us anyway
I believe that there are 70,000 (or so) blokes with guns, if that's any help? Dunno how 'moderate' or even 'friendly' they are though. Maybe Dave needs to send them a link to a surveymonkey. They seem a popular way to prove things at work at the moment. (We even had a survey to ask why we didn't bother filling in the last survey, but I digress).
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...
No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
jimjam I'll see you and raise you
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-mps-allowed-to-vote-with-consciences-they-abandoned-long-ago-20151201104362 ]Daily Mash[/url]
My 11 year old daughter came into the lounge this morning whilst i was watching the news and saw the headline on the tv that said "Vote on airstrikes",
"Are you going to vote dad?" she asked me, I explained that it was only our elected representatives that got to vote in parliament,
"Oh no, they always make the wrong decision" was her response.
Wisdom beyond her years.
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
And on the other side...
"Abdul! Those Stingers from the Afghan conflict! I think it's time to dig them out."
Seems like Cameron is really rattled judging from his ridiculous 'terrorist sympathisers' outburst. Never in my life have I heard such inflammatory and ill-judged language from a sitting PM. The tragedy is that he'll still win due to a group of labour MPs who have either taken leave of their senses or are using the issue to damage Corbyn.
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...
No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
"Oh, what will we do with this stuff when we've liberated ourselves from Assad? I imagine either we'll hand it in to the local police station or we'll just melt it all down ourselves...no, no, there's definitely no chance this stuff will be moved across our notoriously porous borders and into our unstable neighbours, why would you think that?"
By the sounds of it Dave's 'terrorist sympathisers' is going to come back and haunt him about every 2 minutes along with a demand for an apology.
I might get some t shirts printed. 😀
[quote=binners spake unto the masses, saying]These 70,000 'moderate troops' ready to join our noble cause are, just... like..... soooooooo this years '45 minutes to launch WMD's at the the West'.
They only exist in Dave's head
Is there anyone (Dave and Jammers excepted) who actually believes that shit?
I guess it's the same bunch that the US had to admit didn't exist despite their attempts to give them guns and money.
You know in the 3rd Lord of the Rings film? Where the baddies (you can tell they're baddies because they look like baddies) are going to overrun the goodies (you can tell they're goodies because they're all really really white) and all hope is lost, and nothing can possibly make their plan work... til Viggo Mortenson suddenly remembers he's got a spare army of magic soldiers that he keeps in his pocket, that nobody ever mentioned before, and they kill all the baddies like it ain't no thang? That's the inspiration for Cameron's 70,000.
It's not the best basis for foreign policy ever but hey, they can just get around any awkward questions by sitting in silence and ignoring them completely, like the deputy chief of the defence staff did in the foreign affairs select committee.
According to him now, there are another 25,000 as well as the 70,000 Special Magic Troops
But in his questionnaire although they'd ticked yes to the initial question...
[i]1. Are you prepared to fight alongside us against ISIS?[/i]
They'd then put a cross by the subsequent question...
[i]2. Will you then participate in some lovely democratic elections, overseen by us, with our chosen candidates.[/i]
They then vandalised the questionnaire with stuff about death to the infidel pig-dogs, so we took that as a no
SO if the SNP are going to vote against bombing Syria,
most of Scotland voted for the SNP,
does that make all Scots terrorist sympathisers?
I hear back from my MP this morning...
I have listened very carefully to all of the views, advice and information that I have received in the last few weeks on the question that will be put to Parliament today on Syria. I have met with my own constituency Labour Party where there was a very well informed and comradely debate on this and I have debated this with the local North West Durham Fabian Society. I have been contacted by hundreds of constituents and have received briefings and advice from church leaders and charities. I have also listened to the Prime Minister when he set out his case for bombing Syria. Having listened to all this I have decided that I will voting not to bomb Syria.I believe that the issue that Parliament should be debating is how to remove the territory from ISIL/Daesh control, achieve an eventual ceasefire amongst other forces and bring about a transitional settlement to end the Civil War. This is an incredibly complex and difficult diplomatic task, but the first steps are already being taken via the Geneva Process.
I do not believe that the PM has made the case for bombing. I have seen no credible plan particularly in relation to what happens when the bombing stops. I cannot see how dropping even more bombs is going to improve things for the people of Syria, 250,000 of whom have already died in this civil war and the suggestion that our bombs are more accurate than two super-powers who are already bombing is, in my view, ludicrous. I do appreciate the arguments about us needing to stand together with our Allies but not sufficiently to justify the Government’s proposed actions.
Finally I cannot see how the UK joining in the current bombing in Syria will help the process, or defeat ISIL/Daesh; and there is a danger that it will unintentionally lead to civilian casualties and deepen the sense of grievance which ISIL/Daesh feeds upon.
I was appalled by the Paris massacres. People going about their business on a Friday night, enjoying a meal, watching a football match or attending a music concert represents the best of human nature. People joining together to deliberately murder other people in pursuit of a twisted ideology represents the worst of human nature. Those who in any way seek to transfer the blame for these actions to Western Governments are wrong but I believe that history shows that the West’s response to past terrorist actions have been disproportionate and have made matters far, far worse.
For all these reasons I will be voting against the Government’s proposal to bomb Syria when it is put before the House of Commons today.
Yours sincerely,
Pat Glass MP
Watching PM question time live now ...
Ya, ya, ya ... good performance from PM.
It looks like plenty of 'terrorist sympathisers' are getting a bit excited there. 😆
By the sounds of it Dave's 'terrorist sympathisers' is going to come back and haunt him about every 2 minutes along with a demand for an apology.
How many times now? They should have a bell for every time he's reminded of what an idiot he is.
Watching PM question time live now
Try to keep up. PMs question time was cancelled yesterday.
dazh - Member
Watching PM question time live now
Try to keep up. PMs question time was cancelled yesterday.
I see ... anyway PM is answering questions in the Parliament.
Oh ya ... what with this 'terrorist sympathisers' that keep going on?
Bloody swivel-eyed are calling us 'terrorist sympathisers' ... 😆
Looks like some people are getting their knickers in a twist.
The 'pen-pushers' need to get the description right coz that is much more important then the current debate. ... What? The wrong description? Now let us get the definition right ... what? What do you mean the definition is wrong? 😆
does that make all Scots terrorist sympathisers?
No, only 49.98% of them
My MP, who is an utter *, has posted this up on his website
[i]All the business has been cleared from today’s agenda in the House of Commons and the whole day which has been extended to 10pm will consist of a single debate on the motion set out in my last post. This will give 10 and a half hours of time for debate.
Not surprisingly I have received hundreds of emails urging me to vote against military action. It is clear from most of them that the senders appear not to have a full understanding of the situation in the middle east. the situation is extremely complex. I do not pretend that extending our military action across the border from Iraq to Syria will be a solution on its own to the threat from ISIL but it will, in my opinion, on balance, help defeat ISIL and I will vote for it. I should add that I have add some constituents urge me to vote for the motion.[/i]
All it need was for him to pat me on the head, and tell me to leave this to the grown ups
What a patronising *!!!!
My MP - John Mann gives his reasons here. (Against)
http://www.mann4bassetlaw.com/vote_on_the_raf_taking_part_in_air_strikes_against_isis_in_syria
binners - MemberAccording to him now, there are another 25,000 as well as the 70,000 Special Magic Troops
But in his questionnaire although they'd ticked yes to the initial question...
He should get Gerard Butler to lead them. He tried it with only 300.
I'd be surpisd if Cameron didn't get his way - they usually call a vote once they've checked with the whips what the outcome will be...it's very calculated and preplanned...
My MP, who is an utter ****, has posted this up on his website
How bizarre they have said their voters are thick
Even in this letter "some" have said bomb he is admitting that they will ignore the wishes of the vast majority
I guess if they voted for this **** they must be a bit t
[quote=sunnydaze310 spake unto the masses, saying]I'd be surpisd if Cameron didn't get his way - they usually call a vote once they've checked with the whips what the outcome will be...it's very calculated and preplanned...
The outcome of the vote is not in any doubt. What is interesting is how many Labour MP's vote against Corbyn, and what happens then.
I wouldn't concern yourselves with this mythical 70,000 'friendlies' Putin will see them off no problem.
FFS! Let JC(not Jesus Christ) make his speech! Stop shouting! 🙄
Let JC(not Jesus Christ) spells out the details ... What are we debating again ...? 😛
By the sounds of it Dave's 'terrorist sympathisers' is going to come back and haunt him about every 2 minutes along with a demand for an apology.
Many people have called Corbyn and McDonald terrorist sympathisers, me included. As Cameron said in responce today "their record speaks for itself"
The telling image of the day is one of Corbyn delivering his speech flanked by Benn and Watson both of whom will vote against him and in favour of air strikes.
Having watched the whole debate live so far I can say I'm glad it's only 12 hours worth and not two days.
Many people have called Corbyn and McDonald terrorist sympathisers, me included
the question is not are some folk saying this the question is
1) is this true
2) will it sway the doubters
Its a no from me on both counts.
Many people have called Corbyn and McDonald terrorist sympathisers, me included.
To be fair though Jammers, you don't regard Ariel Sharon as a terrorist, whereas I do, so I think we'll just have to beg to differ on this one.
Having watched the whole debate live so far I can say I'm glad it's only 12 hours worth and not two days.
We can agree on that though. Its not like anyone is going to change their mind, is it. Its a totally pointless farce
After 12 hours of debate MPs are going to get bored and grizzly. Someone must make reference to Cameron's porcine dalliance. 🙂
I've had to turn it off - was starting to feel all, well, radical and I don't think my keyboard's spittleproof 😳