[Closed] Forum House of Commons vote on air strikes in Syria - which way will you vote?

[quote=wilburt spake unto the masses, saying]So what does a successful Arabic society look like?

I imagine it looks a lot like a successful Chess Club, or Photographic Society.

let's not go suggesting that he was some benign dictator even if you weren't a friend of the regime.

It's also weird to describe Hussein's regime as stable

Relative to what's happened since.

wilburt - Member

Whilst the UK, US and France want whatever brings stability to the region

It'd be nice if just once we acted like it- we've been turning the place upside down for over a hundred years.

konabunny - Member
Don't you usually decide on a strategy and then choose the tactics (eg bombing) that seem appropriate - rather than fix upon a tactic and then search out a strategy that might fit?

In other words - what's the strategy?

Do they have to spell out everything in detail for everyone's approval?

Are you General in command now?

They (govt, West whoever shite) said it is part of a grand strategy ...

They do not spell it out because they want to get rid of Assad and Russia then to deal with SISI via the rebels to start with a clean slate.

A bit like Afghanistan with a bit of learning from the past.

Bear in mind, the communist ideology is still the biggest threat to the capitalist world and Russia being evolved from that ideology does not fit the modern world so getting rid of Russia is encouraged ... besides they just found oil in Syria ... 😆

I would regard as a 'normal' western life with middle class western style jobs in spite of being no friends of the regeme and christian (rather than Sunni, like Saddam).

Not being a Sunni and/or being a Christian was not necessarily a serious handicap. Saddam's Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister and close advisor was a Christian.

However since the Western enforced regime change being a Christian is now a very serious disadvantage, and despite being one of the oldest Christian communities in the world the overwhelming majority have now been driven out of Iraq.

There were approximately 1.5 million Christians in Iraq when it was invaded there are now as little as 200,000.

I'm not if its an editing thing but I've lost the flow of this thread. DrJ sorry I don't know what you mean and Chewkw, I don't think that strike was by the UK and whoever it was its in predominantly IS territory.

Yup. I have a friend who was an archaeologist in Iraq under Saddam, his sister was a University Lecturer. They...could walk about freely living what you or I would regard as a 'normal' western life with middle class western style jobs...Life under Saddam was stable, even if you were Christian or Shia.

Relative to what's happened since.

All starting to come out now. The "seven plots" foiled by the security services not planned and executed from Raqqa but possibly "inspired"? And the 70000 moderate troops sounding more and more preposterous every day - even BoJo had to have his knuckles rapped by No. 10 - can't Dave control his own party or what? Whip needed to secure a strong vote for air strikes and now one of the contenders for leadership is telling him to do a deal with Putin and rubbishing the 70000 figure.

Cripes, it sounds like it was all a bit, erm, let me think of a phrase...[i]sexed up[/i]?

Probably best to hang fire on Chilcott now (it's not like we've waited years already, eh?) and just add Libya and Syria to the list.

As far as I'm aware the seven terrorist plots where exactly that, there has not been a major effort to link them to Raqqa or indeed anywhere else. The 70,000 fighters claim was an unecessary sideshow. Irrelevant to the outcome of the vote IMO and as such unnecessary.

The attack on Paris was planned, funded and the terrorists trained and travelled from Syria hidden amongst refugees. That plus the fact France asked for for our help is enough on its own to extend our bombing campaign a few hundred km's North West against the same targets we are already actively striking. The French government did not have a vote, Hollande and his ministers decided just as Cameron or indeed Blair was perfectly entitied to do.

jambalaya - Member - Block User
As far as I'm aware the seven terrorist plots where exactly that, there has not been a major effort to link them to Raqqa or indeed anywhere else.

😆

The 70,000 fighters claim was an unecessary sideshow. Irrelevant to the outcome of the vote IMO and as such unnecessary.

Except as an answer to the whole 'what happens after bombing?' question.

The attack on Paris was planned, funded and the terrorists trained and travelled from Syria hidden amongst refugees

Source?

Source?

Don't be silly.

In his first Syria statement to Parliament on Thursday November 26, Mr Cameron declared: “In the last 12 months, our police and security services have disrupted no fewer than seven terrorist plots to attack the UK, every one of which was either linked to ISIL or inspired by its propaganda.

“So I am in no doubt that it is in our national interest for action to be taken to stop it—and stopping it means taking action in Syria, because Raqqa is its headquarters.

The 70,000 fighters claim was an unecessary sideshow. Irrelevant to the outcome of the vote IMO and as such unnecessary.

I dunno, sounds like the kind of stuff someone would add to, y'know, sex it up.

Don't be silly.

The 70,000 fighters claim was an unecessary sideshow. Irrelevant to the outcome of the vote IMO and as such unnecessary.

The claim of about 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground who do not belong to extremist groups was made by Cameron in a written response to the Foreign Affairs Committee.

He was making the case for bombing targets in Syria.

You might dismiss it as "an unnecessary sideshow", obviously because it's embarrassing nonsense, but Cameron clearly thought it was vital to the case he was making for air strikes.

..and it was resoundingly discredited in the parlimentary debate that went on to vote in favour of extending airstrikes. It was a misjudged statement by a pm desperate not to lose a vote.

It doesnt make the desicion wrong though,

The second point about direct links to Syria is an irrelevance turned into a story by the Huff Post, maybe they didnt travel to Ragga, maybe they watched a video or went to a lecture or the wrong mosque.
All it realy tells us is that the problem isnt confined to one town in one country and whilst military action be part of the solution it isn't all of it by a long way, cant believe anyone doesn't know that already.

That plus the fact France asked for for our help

by taking some refugees from Calais. Remind me of our response ... ?

However since the Western enforced regime change being a Christian is now a very serious disadvantage, and despite being one of the oldest Christian communities in the world the overwhelming majority have now been driven out of Iraq.
There were approximately 1.5 million Christians in Iraq when it was invaded there are now as little as 200,000.

This.

And the persecution/murder of the Christian population took place before ISIS. Presumably by 'moderates'.

sorry for the facebook plagiarism but hey ho!

I see you, Hilary Benn.

I see your circular glasses and your pointy pencil-eraser little head, like some weird amalgamation of Beaker and Bunsen Honeydew from The Muppets. You look like the lovechild of Lembit Opik and The Demon Headmaster, Hilary Benn, except you just seem to want to bombard the whole of Syria instead of the tits of one of The Cheeky Girls.

I hear your speech, Hilary Benn, as you call out Isis or Daesh or whatever we're calling them this week for their unmitigated evil. I'll just call them like I see them, Hilary Benn, which are Fanatics Under Corrupt Wahhabist-Influenced Tuition (or FUCWITs for short). I see you banging the war drum, calling us up to arms, even though just two weeks ago and even after the Paris attacks you'd been saying it was a bad idea. You lot change your mind pretty quickly, don't you, Hilary Benn? When Russia stormed in a couple of months ago Cameron said it would only feed into the FUCWITs' hands and now he's got a positive boner for joining in. At this rate I'm expecting Jeremy Corbyn to do a 180 in three weeks and personally charge into Syria on horseback to single-handedly beat Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to death with a bag of lentils.

It's a weird turnaround for you, isn't it, Hilary Benn? It's almost as if you've decided to change tack just as Corbyn looks his weakest, but I'm sure that can't be it. I'm sure that all the right-wing papers are lauding your performance for no other reason than it was a great speech, as opposed to a chest-beating rallying cry from a centrist they'd rather see in charge of the opposition.

I see you in all the papers, Hilary Benn, and I see them spinning the story faster than a dodgy waltzer. It's now Labour's free vote pushing us to war, as opposed to Cameron's frantic grab for his own Falklands to cement his position on the world stage. It's the lunatic left threatening MPs for their decision that are the real problem, even though Lucy Allan doctored her own email and added 'unless you die' to the end of it because she was gutted at being left out, like a schoolgirl giving herself a lovebite with the hoover attachment. It's you that's the great orator driving us on our great crusade, shifting the focus from the Tories and making the whole war easier to pin on a scapegoat if it turns out badly. And the biggest spin of all, Hilary Benn, the idea that we're part of a coalition of allies, even though Russia supports Assad and Turkey are still bombing the Kurds when they're the ones making gains against the FUCWITs. It's an ideological war, isn't it, Hilary Benn? We can't bow to extremists and give legitimacy to brutal and oppressive regimes. Well, unless they're Saudi, but that's different somehow.

It used to be Assad we hated, Hilary Benn, with his chemical weapons and barrel bombs. But we couldn't bomb him because it would destabilise the region. Now we're going to flatten Raqqa and do what exactly, Hilary Benn? Stand over the ruins and at the end of it ask Russia nicely if they wouldn't mind changing their minds about Assad completely? I'm sure that'll stabilise everything, particularly when the arms are still flooding in from our other 'allies' and those 70,000 nonexistent moderates Cameron was on about have finished politely and moderately beheading each other in the power vacuum. It's a ****ing mess, Hilary Benn, and there's no easy answer to any of it. People will die with every bomb they drop and people will die with every bomb they don't. And the FUCWITs will hide among the innocent people of Syria and take as many of them down with them as they can, creating widows and orphans and driving every mourning wail into a cry for war.

I don't see a solution, Hilary Benn. I couldn't even begin to comprehend one. There can be no 'us and them' when innocent people stand to suffer. The FUCWITs are unquestionably evil, but they're a weed strangling the heart of the Syrian people and we've spent years in our own way feeding it.

I see the difficulty in tearing it out by the roots, Hilary Benn, particularly when Cameron is calling for us to just go at the entire garden with a flamethrower. Anything else makes us a terrorist sympathiser, after all. Because that's where we are now - to second guess anything, to pause and reflect and to try and see an alternative, to do anything but to charge headlong into the fold when provoked, makes us weak. We have to meet barbarism with strength. We have to give the FUCWITs what they've asked for or they've won. We have to meet knives at throats with bombs in cities and hatred with righteous fury, as if those two aren't entirely interchangeable when the outcome is the same.

I see the oil fires burning, Hilary Benn, as the bombs drop on the refineries, the training camps, the militant convoys. I see the inevitable mistakes, the flattened homes, the shattered lives. I see the thick smoke rising, a spectre that looms above the world and rains poison into the eyes that look up at it.

I hear them cheering in the House, Hilary Benn. As if this was a clear-cut thing, good versus evil, right versus wrong. The FUCWITs have to pay, and they have to be wiped off the face of the earth. I'd struggle to find anyone willing to argue with that, because despite everything, I'm pretty sure I don't actually know any terrorist sympathisers.

But I see the people of Syria, Hilary Benn. I see their children, their loved ones, their friends. I see the innocent Muslims everywhere who fear what this all means. I see the streets of Paris and San Bernardino. I see the tube stations in London and I see the servicemen we send to war. I hope that they won't have to pay as well.

I hear them cheering in the House, Hilary Benn, as if this awful and difficult decision were something to celebrate, rather than an agonising and somber conclusion reached in reluctant recognition of the innocent lives it will inevitably have to destroy.

I hear them cheering in the House, Hilary Benn, and I wonder what your father would think.

I see you, Hilary Benn. I ****ing see you.

Source?

Don't be silly.

.

The 70,000 fighters claim was an unecessary sideshow. Irrelevant to the outcome of the vote IMO and as such unnecessary.

You're very benevolent in your views on the governments motives on such matter, aren't you? As with the whole WMD nonsense, its a wilful premeditated campaign of misinformation to create a false narrative, which is then used as a justification for something you'd otherwise, rightfully have no public support for.

The fact that we've all seen it all before (hello there you sexy sexy sexed up dossier, you), and (barring yourself, obviously) can see it for the frankly laughable load of old cobblers it patently is, hasn't stopped them trying it again. I'm sure given the 'come off it! How stupid do you think we are' reaction from everyone (barring yourself, obviously), I doubt we'll here much more on the phantom 70,000 strong army

The attack on Paris was planned, funded and the terrorists trained and travelled from Syria hidden amongst refugees.

No it wasn't. You're never one to let any facts get in the way of your pre-recorded conclusions, are you?

It was, as with the London 7/7 bombings etc etc etc home grown jihadists. The latest link is to Birmingham. Last time I looked that wasn't in Syria. Have I missed something here?

So taking the argument for bombing Syria to its logical conclusion, we should presently be targeting Brussels, Bradford, Leeds and Paris, as they are presently home to extremist cells which they are exporting to other countries

Thats how it works, right? This whole justification for bombing lark?

even though Lucy Allan doctored her own email and added 'unless you die' to the end of it because she was gutted at being left out, like a schoolgirl giving herself a lovebite with the hoover attachment.

@jambalaya you're wasted here mate, I'd go ride your bike, write those reviews we all enjoy and leave this lot to it. It's not like the STW chat forum echo chamber is going to change how people see things.

Utterly laughable.

As an aside, don't we have a Rusty Shackleford on STW? 😯

@jambalaya you're wasted here mate, I'd go ride your bike, write those reviews we all enjoy and leave this lot to it. It's not like the STW chat forum echo chamber is going to change how people see things.

At least Jamba is a constant source of entertainment unlike your interjections (how many now?) to tell us how much you don't care or none of us matters. Someone suffering an attention deficit today?

It doesnt make the desicion wrong though

For a lot of people it does make the decision wrong because the 70,000 nonsense betrays the fact that bombing Syria was not part of a carefully thought out plan.

And we know the problem with not thought out plans, don't we?.....Iraq? Libya?

Someone suffering an attention deficit today?

Most days.

(907!)

Back again? Surprised you care enough.

Of course I care, these are important and difficult decisions that will affect many people's lives very significantly.

Oh so you do care now. My apologies if I got the impression you didn't. I have no idea how that happened.

Everyone here cares dd.

[img] [/img]

Source

Oh so you do care now. My apologies if I got the impression you didn't. I have no idea how that happened

and everyone who doesn't a terrorist sympathiser.

...anyone who supports military action is a right wing warmonger devoid of any moral fiber...

if the cap fits jamba.

Oh look, we were lied to - again, what a surprise:

None of the seven terror plots foiled in the UK over the past year was directed from Syria, senior MPs have been told by security and intelligence sources.

Despite David Cameron’s claim that the plots were ‘linked to’ or ‘inspired by’ ISIL, MPs have ascertained there is no evidence that any of them were actually coordinated by the Islamists’ command and control centre in Raqqa.

The admission is a serious challenge to the case for RAF bombing in Syria as it counters the hints from some Tory – and Labour - MPs that ISIL in Syria had to be targeted with airstrikes because it poses a ‘direct’ threat to the UK.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/07/none-of-the-seven-foiled-_n_8741598.html

The two immediate victims of terrorism - the truth and liberty.

Tough to trust OUR representatives at the best of times, but particularly at times like this

Shocking - well perhaps not... 🙁

I can't believe that Lucy Allan! That is surely a sackable offence?

Source?

You obvioulsy don't follow the news AT ALL @Lifer

I can't believe that Lucy Allan! That is surely a sackable offence?

I dunno about sackable but it's a bloody disgrace and shouldn't go unsanctioned, imho.

[i]I dunno about sackable but it's a bloody disgrace and shouldn't go unsanctioned, imho. [/i]

Wasting police time maybe?

Absolutely agree outofbreath. Not sackable but when her constituents hear of it it will be (rightly) damaging.

Her 'explanation' is just unbelievable!

Her 'explanation' is just unbelievable!

....and if you read the 'abuse' in the context of the whole mail it's not really abusive at all - the tone of the mail in its entirety is reasonable and nonthreatening.

Tough to trust OUR representatives at the best of times, but particularly at times like this

Yip.

Wow, I agree with THM on something.

Tough to trust OUR representatives at the best of times, but particularly at times like this

I actually trust Corbyn.

Each to their own...

I certainly don't trust that little shite Hilary Benn.

Absolutely agree outofbreath. Not sackable but when her constituents hear of it it will be (rightly) damaging.

Nah, most wont know about it, others wont care and the few that do would have been voting for someone else.

Each to their own...

Well yes and as a committed Tory supporter when Cameron got caught lying you came out with the tried and tested "all politicians lie" line.

And it works very well - even wanmankylung accepted it.

Very good @kona 🙂

@Lifer do you recognise this person ? TV news used the MEMRI piece on him from a year ago "preaching" from a trench in Syria

[img] [/img]

I actually trust Corbyn.

Yawn

A man walks into an empty room.....

A man walks into an empty room.....

[img] [/img]

😀

Well if Bob isn't smart enough to kick the door or bang his head on it then he's beyond help. IGMC.

there's a joke about wood in there somewhere...

#ontheline call in with ViceNews journalist who has reported from inside Syria and Iraq was asked "are air strikes effective?" His answer was a clear yes. The Peshmerga/Kurds say they could not have held Kobani or liberated Sinjar without airstrikes and in fact they wanted more and a faster coalition approval process. Journalist also noted that IS could no longer move around freely in convoys.

Also as an aside he mentioned that the Turks seem more concerned with the Kurds and PKK than IS and Kurds believe the Turks are supporting/turning a blind eye towards IS

None of the seven terror plots foiled in the UK over the past year was directed from Syria, senior MPs have been told by security and intelligence sources.

Was the Paris one?

ontheline call in with ViceNews journalist who has reported from inside Syria and Iraq was asked "are air strikes effective?" His answer was a clear yes

Journalists eh what a great bunch of revered truth tellers they are.

5/10

Have you not been reading ANY news JY?

Was the Paris one?

No, they were all French or Belgian citizens

Also as an aside he mentioned that the Turks seem more concerned with the Kurds and PKK than IS and Kurds believe the Turks are supporting/turning a blind eye towards IS

As I said, they (IS) appear to be pawns in the real power struggle and a brief look at a map suggests theyre a very effective Turkish expeditionary force.

Nothing like bombing some brown people to get our collective mojo back.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14129765.Osborne__UK_has__got_its_mojo_back__with_air_strikes/

#strangest

Are we bombing them because they are brown?

Thats gonna keep us busy.

Are we bombing them because they are brown?

Don't think so. After all some of us are brown too.

The Peshmerga/Kurds say they could not have held Kobani or liberated Sinjar without airstrikes and in fact they wanted more and a faster coalition approval process. Journalist also noted that IS could no longer move around freely in convoys.

It's a problem. I'm broadly anti air strikes. But it isn't simple. Most people would support an air strike to help an individual town of Shias/Yazidis protect themselves from Sunni(ISIS) attack. Most people would not support air strikes to help Shia's over run a Sunni town and wreak revenge.

Also as an aside he mentioned that the Turks seem more concerned with the Kurds and PKK than IS and Kurds believe the Turks are supporting/turning a blind eye towards IS

That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Not many people will need reminding that Turks are mostly Sunni, they are much more at risk from Kurds who they've been fighting for years than they are from Sunnis.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Kurds are mostly Sunni too.

The Turkish-Kurdish tension isn't about religion, it's about land (and money, and jobs, and language).

.... But it isn't simple. ...

Finally.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Kurds are mostly Sunni too.
The Turkish-Kurdish tension isn't about religion, it's about land (and money, and jobs, and language).

Thanks I didn't know Kurds were Sunni. But Religion/tribe/ethnicity, whatever. According to Wikipedia Kurds are ethnically distinct from Turks and whatever we call Iraqi/Syrian Sunnis. I can well imagine ISIS might not consider them their own and Turkey have been at war with them for years.

...for whatever reason Turkey are less bothered by ISIS than they are by Kurds, and they probably have reasons that seem good to them. And we're supposed to be on Turkey's side.

Finally.

Excellent, both sides think I'm wrong. I'm a proper centerist.

britians got it's mojo back

what a prick.

Excellent, both sides think I'm wrong. I'm a proper centerist.

You're in trouble. This place is like US prison, you have to be in a gang to survive.

You're in trouble. This place is like US prison, you have to be in a gang to survive.

😀

Was the Paris one?

No, they were all French or Belgian citizens

Many (all?) of whom had travelled to Syria to train/fight with IS and returned to carry out the attacks including by posing as refugees to gain entry to Europe

Right. So ISIL in Syria is a direct threat to the UK. The argument that the 7 stopped UK attacks were not planned in Syria (so there is no "direct threat") is irrelevant, because the Paris one was.

[i]Many (all?) of whom had travelled to Syria to train/fight with IS[/i]

One was known to have definitely been to Syria, and trained with IS, 2 others 'may' have been to Syria via Turkey, the Turks have them coming in but not going out, which suggests they crossed the porous border.

The others? : no

Right. So ISIL in Syria is a direct threat to the UK. The argument that the 7 stopped UK attacks were not planned in Syria (so there is no "direct threat") is irrelevant, because the Paris one was.

Yes, bombing an entirely different country because some of our own citizens are a bit stupid, makes entirely good sense...

Third Bataclan attacker now identified, originally from Strasbourg but travelled to fight in Syria before returning to carry out the attacks.

Ceasefire agreed in Homs with city returning to government control

Ceasefire agreed in Homs with city returning to government control

The Citizens of Syria still think that Assad is the real danger, so I imagine they won't be massively happy about it.