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I think Max has dispelled the theory that his championships were only because he had a dominant car.
Has he?
He had by far the quickest car in the first part of the season.
It only faded after Newey left after the boss sent dick pics around. It doesn't look like the constructors will go to RB as the 2nd driver is not performing.
If that was Ferrari the money men would have a new broom through the place.
As it's a marketing company for a gruesome fizzy drink, expect the same next year.
On that Monaco stuff, given everyone likes the qualifying, but the race is a bit processional, how about…
1. Scrap the qualifying - no, reallly, stick with me.
2. Scrap the race - wait for it…
3. Replace it with a 10 lap, perhaps 15, team time trial.
Head off in reverse team championship order, rolling start, time starts on first car crossing line, finishes on second car.
If a team bin it they’re ranked on how far they got, not the time.
Identical driver points based on the team’s position.
Perhaps the combined normal points of 1st & 2nd to the first team, then 3&4, and so on.
Different from normal racing, might suit Monaco, great PR photos, and not really that contrived (like DRS, or joker lap routes, etc)
Different from normal racing
Sounds a lot like single lap quali and that was a disaster in so many ways.
And Max's win this year has some echoes of the 2009 season - have a substantial car advantage at the start of the year and build a buffer which gets eroded as the other teams catch up. I really hope nobody (well, none of the top 4) make a major step for 2025 - I've enjoyed the ebb and flow in the performance of RB, Ferrari, Merc and McLaren depending on the circuit and conditions. It'd be great if one of the other teams could catch them up, but think even a newly Newey'd Aston will struggle, Williams are still building to 26, Alpine are just all over the place, SAudiber likewise, VCARB won't be allowed to compete with RB and Haas are amazed that anyone's slower than them this year so will be happy enough if that doesn't change.
He seemed pretty average today.
He just did what he needed to do today - even letting Lewis pass without any silly games! 🙂
Expect elbows-out Max to be back for the last two races!
Good race though, certainly worth getting up for.
Scrap the race
That's all that is required. The rest is just a compromise to keep it on the calendar. The sooner it gets consigned to history the better. The current and for the foreseeable future cars are just too big for it to work as a venue.
He just did what he needed to do today
Agreed [but even an idiot wouldn't have risked anything], but that has nothing to do with
I think Max has dispelled the theory that his championships were only because he had a dominant car.
He's going to have a lot more on his plate next year.
Next year will be a weird one. Teams that will do sod all on their 2025 cars as their sole focus will be 2026…
• Haas
• Alpine
• Williams
• Aston
• Sauber/Audi
• RB
Red Bull, Ferrari, Merc and McLaren have the basics of decent 2025 cars anyway. And one of them may chance chucking a bunch of cash at next season to try and steal championships while the others have half an eye on 2026.
God, the Rolls Royce procession really is an unneeded tacky thing we could do without.
Quite appropriate for Las Vegas, the home of tacky things.
Anyway, yesterday I was wondering if Ferrari would be kicking themselves for signing Lewis. Today, I'm sure they won't be.
I think Max has dispelled the theory that his championships were only because he had a dominant car.
He's very difficult to judge. He was pretty even with Sainz and Riciardo. Checo appears to have lost his mojo the last couple of years and Albon and Gasly were almost rookies who weren't given time to get the hang of things.
He is the only world champ not have been teammates with another world champ (Jones/Hunt slightly contrived)
Very difficult to judge how good he is, compared to say, a Hamilton who we can compare to Alonso, Button and Rosberg.
Definitely has an attitude problem, but then races like Brazil are true champion's drives.
Isn't this technically his second championship on merit plus the one gifted and one paid for with buffet sandwiches?
Anyone thinking that Checo overtaking two cars at one corner is enough to secure a drive for next year?
Me neither....
Don't think Checo can really be bothered. Would you want to drive for a team wholly focused on the evil one?
He will never keep a win if, Vestaphen is behind him.
It’s interesting to know just how much difference the car makes. I’m watching the Brawn series - notable how pre double diffuser additions to red bull the Brawn was immediately uncompetitive in the wet and Red Bull surged in those conditions. Yet who’s the better driver - Button or Webber?
It’s a game of such fine margins, see a suddenly dominant Mercedes this weekend, which even they report to not knowing why.
I suspect the drivers are within very tiny decimals of percentage difference on ability. Verstappen brought the fear of “Crashstappen” to the game to bully his way through on top of a dominant car and made a change to F1 that way… …before this years finer margins and penalties tempered that a little.
We await to see if someone finds a revelation in 2026, but as above for 2025 i suspect most has been wrung out of the cars with the top teams unwilling to risk current performance for a risky innovation.
Anyway, yesterday I was wondering if Ferrari would be kicking themselves for signing Lewis. Today, I’m sure they won’t be.
I'm sure Ferrari are going to be happy, but after their frankly woeful off-track performance on Sunday - that probably cost a podium place, I can't imagine that Hamilton is massively impressed.
Isn’t this technically his second championship on merit plus the one gifted and one paid for with buffet sandwiches?
There is of course the asymmetric braking technical directive which coincided with Red Bulls sudden decline. So he's maybe got x1 WC! 🙂
2 races left, plenty still to fight for....
1) Can Ferrari overturn McLaren for the constructors
2) Can Leclerc overturn Lando for the runners up spot
3) Will Perez finally be allowed to win a race 😉
4) Will Mercedes performance collapse again
I think rather than collapse, I think we're seeing very track specific performance from each of the teams, look at how badly (relatively) McLaren did yesterday for example.
Isn’t this technically his second championship on merit plus the one gifted and one paid for with buffet sandwiches?
There is of course the asymmetric braking technical directive which coincided with Red Bulls sudden decline. So he’s maybe got x1 WC!
I think that's the problem. Regardless of how good he is his titles will always be tainted, much like Schumacher for instance, it's likely there was a lot of cheating going on in the Benneton days and so, IMO, he's not an equal to Hamilton, even if he is by number of titles. I think Verstappen will have the same problem, 2021 isn't any more valid than 1994 for example
I have no doubt that Verstappen will be remembered as one of the greats, just like Schumacher. Both of them are difficult to like but nobody seriously doubts their skill behind the wheel. 2021 was one of the greatest championship battles ever. Yes, it ended in a farce but Verstappen would still have gone down as a great driver even if he had lost that championship. This year he maximized the performance of a difficult and often unpredictable car. Perez is a decent driver when he has a decent car but he was made to look hopeless by Verstappen this year. The victory in Brazil sealed the title, that was a race that Max really had no business winning, it really was a superb drive. Norris had a car capable of winning the title but he just wasn't quite at the same level as Max. I'm pretty sure that Alonso or Hamilton at their best would have taken the title in this year's McLaren (and Verstappen too).
There’s always a fine line between exploiting loopholes and cheating. Much as I don’t find Red Bull’s general behaviour endearing, I don’t believe they’re cheats in the way that more than one of Flav’s teams were. I think the thing about Verstappen’s racing is how he responds on track when the pressure is really on. He teeters on the edge of Schumacher’s tactics—and for me, Schumacher’s legacy is absolutely tainted in a way that almost no other truly great driver’s is. (OK, Senna had Suzuka ‘90 but that’s an outlier.) I can’t imagine Verstappen would ever park up at Rascasse, but I don’t think it’d be inconceivable that he would consider torpedoing a championship rival if he felt that was his only chance.
Unexpectedly enjoyable race at the Spiderpig Speedway, though—no shortage of action. I’d thought Fred had dealt with the Ferrari strategy gremlins but apparently not. I really hope they get their ducks in order for next year; they’ll need to. Could be a big year for them.
Kryton57Full Member
4) Will Mercedes performance collapse again
Russell apparently said the reason they were so fast is a combination of a very efficient rear wing, cool track & smooth surface let them get the car into the window which is to be run very low and very stiff.
Mark Hughes' analysis of why Merc dominated:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-extreme-factors-behind-mercedes-vegas-domination/
Basically, the perfect track and weather conditions for Merc, the worst for McLaren. Merc will need to make their car work over a much wider range of conditions if they want to win titles next year, so will Red Bull. But, they will all have learned a lot from this year so hard to predict much beyond any of the top four teams might win next year.
cool track & smooth surface let them get the car into the window which is to be run very low and very stiff
It’s about 30 years since I studied fluid dynamics (and to be honest most of the fluids I was studying at the time came in pint glasses) but the thing that strikes me about that is that I’d confidently reckon that would be the easiest set of parameters to model accurately. It really reinforces the idea that at least one key to cracking the modern ground effect regulations was to understand the complex relationship between the suspension and the airflows, and by implication the notion that Newey understood that relationship more clearly and more quickly than anyone.
Looks like there will be 11 teams in 2026...
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/11/25/f1-confirms-agreement-for-gm-cadillac-to-be-11th-team-in-2026/
Unsure what to make of it.
Its good to have another team on the grid, but it feels like 2000's when loads of manufacturers entered as constructors, only to leave a few years later when they worked out that they couldnt win against the big 4 "independents".
Seems like F1 had their hand forced by the threat of US competition laws, but as a compromise the Andretti connection had to be dropped.
Chew
Seems like F1 had their hand forced by the threat of US competition laws, but as a compromise the Andretti connection had to be dropped.
Indeed, but also they don't want Andretti making a car outside of the restrictions.
https://bsky.app/profile/rorymitchellf1.bsky.social/post/3lbs6a6lkek23
Monza has had a stay of execution for a couple of weeks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/articles/czd56e6r9epo
“We are all aware that history is no longer enough.”
That’s so sad. ?
Unfortunately it's going to be the way now that F1 is owned by an American franchise. Was always under threat when Ecclestone was in charge, but he used to screw organisers for his own gains. Allegedly ?
“We are all aware that history is no longer enough.”
That’s so sad
I'm all for history and having races where there's a culture of motorsport, but the circuits also have to ensure they're fitting places for a modern F1 race. Silverstone regularly took a kicking from Bernie because of this, and they have made changes while still keeping much of the essence of the historic track.
A few years ago I went to monza, then the next year Abu Dhabi. The contrast between the two was remarkable - AD has fantastic modern facilities, even air conditioned bogs, but lacked the soul of Monza with its scaffold plank benches and questionable portaloos. AD also seemed to lack the slack approach to security and consequent risk of petty crime that Monza had. The plans for Monza with decent facilities sounds fantastic, but the one problem with the track being so fast is that the race is over before you know it
Monza has had a stay of execution for a couple of weeks
i think they have another 7 years, haven’t they? Or did the story update after this was posted?
Yeah, I'm a bit confused by the 'sad' comments. The article says Monza will be on the calendar until at least 2031 unless I've missed something (quite possible).
Silverstone regularly took a kicking from Bernie because of this, and they have made changes while still keeping much of the essence of the historic track.
I think Bernie gave Silverstone a kicking to extract as much money as he could out of the place...
A few years ago I went to monza, then the next year Abu Dhabi. The contrast between the two was remarkable – AD has fantastic modern facilities, even air conditioned bogs, but lacked the soul of Monza with its scaffold plank benches and questionable portaloos. AD also seemed to lack the slack approach to security and consequent risk of petty crime that Monza had.
I went to MotoGP when it transitioned from Donington to Silverstone and, whilst the facilities are undoubtably nicer, it was such a cold, sterile environmrnt by comparison. Mugello's even more spartan, but I'd take the atmosphere and mayhem of one Mugello over the shiny facilities of a thousand Abu Dhabis.
Yeah, I’m a bit confused by the ‘sad’ comments.
The sadness was about history no longer being enough. 🙁
it was such a cold, sterile environmrnt
Every MotoGP event is cold and sterile as no bugger goes to them. You can have a whole row of seat in the grandstand to yourself.
As evidence to the contrary, I present Mugello, M'lud. 🙂
They do need to sort out the aero, stupid ride-height stuff and electronics, though - it has become dull. 🙁
.
Another FIA departee takes a swipe at Ben...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sacked-f1-race-steward-mayer-takes-aim-at-fia-president/10677275/
...is Ben modelling his approach on Jean-Marie Balestre! 🙂
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sacked-f1-race-steward-mayer-takes-aim-at-fia-president/10677275/
/blockquote>
I only follow F1 very loosely these days but seeing that link took me back to when I occasionally used to meet with his dad, Teddy Mayer, over at McLaren's at the trading estate at Colnbrook where they used to run the odd racing car up and down the road. Very different from their headquarters now in Woking.
its sad to see Hamilton reflecting on his lack of speed. His normal upbeat approach seems to have gone. Not sure how much is down to leaving and sidelined if so by Mercedes. I hope he get back to his best but looking at Schumacher, Vettel and somewhat Alonso in their later years it seems things move on.
So the four contenders for the second Red Bull seat finished 16th, 17th, 18th, and 20th. Carlos Slim's going to have to pony up some serious cash if he wants Perez to stay on the grid next year.
I don’t think there’s any amount of money that would make RB keep Perez. He just looks done and they really need an effective number 2 driver. They should be at least in with a shout for the constructors championship.
Verstappen has been given a penalty for obstructing Russell, so Russell is back on pole (source: BBC)
Bit of an odd penalty. I think the key bit in the stewards document is the bit about Max cooling his tyres. I.e. they think he was outside the delta for selfish reasons opposed to avoiding traffic.
I don't recall anybody getting a penalty point and a grid drop for doing that though.
I thought the key bit was checking his mirrors several times then parking it on the racing line anyway. Still a weird penalty though
Ruddy ‘ell - is it the end of season Formula Ford festival!? 🙂
What an absolute farce. Is there any point in watching this sport any more?
Feels like Abu Dhabi 2021 all over again
Well that was bonkers!!
It really looks like the mass exodus of top people from the FIA is really starting to affect the smooth running of the grand prix. I’m expecting Mohammed Ben Sulayem to go over the winter
So Ocon is being replaced by Doohan for final race!
Interesting protest by Hamilton. Threatened to quit, then when Mercedes accepted(?) that, he stays out. Is that an FU? With the questions regarding the lap time delta and statements he’s made to state that the car handling is perfect, does Lewis think he knows they’ve turned his cars performance down?
As the commentators said, I think he’s close to not turning up next week, but he will for the fans and undoubtably be at least vocal about that very reasoning above all else.
Threatened to quit, then when Mercedes accepted(?) that, he stays out.
I thought he asked to come in and they said no, so he stayed out.
They then said yes and he then stayed out and overtook some cars!
Kinda feel for him, he was on the end of some tough calls.
Looking forward to seeing him in red.
Max calling out Woody!!… 🙂
https://twitter.com/roblmyers/status/1863299276945678378?s=46&t=EQoHg-RGok071Fjc15ZHKw
After watching that, I’m really glad I don’t pay specifically for F1 anymore. CBA to go through it but that was awful.
Found that whole weekend thoroughly bizarre. A track that barely has one overtaking spot, a sprint race that was just a train, driver errors all over the shop, debris that was always going to end in a puncture but they couldn’t be arsed to clear up before it did, penalties everywhere, Hamilton fully throwing the towel in, Red Bull gloating about karma on the radio after the race… ok, nothing bizarre about the last one. But at one point I did wonder how long I’ll keep watching F1.
Lando showed how beaten he is by MV. Twice he had his car alongside and fully backed out. He can't a fight to him, so he's done.
I let my sub for F1 lapse this year and can't see me getting it back for next year.
Oh hang on - Lewis at Ferrari...
Even after a year, the prospect is still tantalising.
Losail really does feel like the wrong circuit for these cars. I know some of the drivers (Piastri for instance) has siad that he really enjoys it, an I can imagine that Qualis here must be quite a lot of fun, but the 'race' is just dull, and I wonder how much of the antics, and mistakes is just borne out of frustration. Plus I think it shows that the season is just a bit too long now, and everyone just wants it to stop.
I’m expecting Mohammed Ben Sulayem to go over the winter
He's another 2 years yet before re-election comes around, and listening to some of the FIA officials (that haven't been sacked) speaking about the GPDA accusations and questions and so forth, I get the impression that they don't really care much about what the folks outside of who they think are their audience, think about how they're doing.
boomerlives
Free Member
Lando showed how beaten he is by MV. Twice he had his car alongside and fully backed out. He can’t a fight to him, so he’s done.
Yeah I thought that too, it was the perfect opportunity to show Max that he wasn't always going to back out.
Agree with the above about the circuit, it's just not a great track for F1 at all.
boomerlives
Free Member
Lando showed how beaten he is by MV. Twice he had his car alongside and fully backed out. He can’t a fight to him, so he’s done.
Yeah I thought that too, it was the perfect opportunity to show Max that he wasn't always going to back out.
Agree with the above about the circuit, it's just not a great track for F1 at all.
Does show that the Lando challenge was a small glitch in the matrix, Max controlling it all again. Was sad to hear Lewis so downbeat, seems like the towel is thrown in now. Will Ferrari have raised an eyebrow at his attitude?
bails
But McLaren need the points so need to finish the race, Max/RB don’t.
Oh yeah good point, I forgot about that little detail 🙂 presume they will have told him not to dnf under any circumstances.
But McLaren need the points so need to finish the race
But they did not get them. (Well, they got 2, but not 15)
And they won't next race or next year if LN keeps backing out.
I would bet £5 that Pastry wouldn't in the same situation, because he's not yet broken.
it was the perfect opportunity to show Max that he wasn’t always going to back out.
Max is always going to push whoever trying to overtake him on the outside of any corner, it's pretty much SOP for him. I think Lando did the smart thing, McLaren need the points for constructors and the driver's champ is done, why get into a tangle now? Next year will probs be a whole different thing. I'll expect it'll be gloves off again. 50p says that at some point some-one will let the crash happen.
Will Ferrari have raised an eyebrow at his attitude?
Lewis is back on “Team” almost immediately after the race, in that regard he’s exceptional. I bet his friendliness with Toto is being pushed to the limits after he’s shown the level of respect he’s prepared to give to an 8 x world champ (yes 8, I’m including the one he was robbed of) by hobnailing his car to pay for his disloyalty.
Looks like the hype for Colapinto is cooling. The cost of buying him from Williams and the car rebuild costs must have the bean counters worried! 🙂
hobnailing his car to pay for his disloyalty.
I don't for a second believe that Merc would do this, I'm absolutely certain that everyone in the team is disappointed that they haven't been able to give Hamilton a car capable of winning races consistently. Hamilton has always had a bad habit of saying silly things when he gets frustrated, then he cools off and it's all forgotten. The Merc seems to be a very tricky car to get set up and to drive and Hamilton just hasn't managed to get the most out of it the way Russell has.
No chance Merc are hobbling Hamilton.
Russel may be privy to some information regarding future plans for it which Hamilton is no longer told about but I suspect that is where any bias stops. It's just not in their interest to damage their chances as a whole.
The Merc seems to be a very tricky car to get set up and to drive and Hamilton just hasn’t managed to get the most out of it the way Russell has.
It will be so interesting to see if the Ferrari is 'easier'. I was concerned he's made a bad move but they're fairly consistently there now (ignoring the odd pit wall decisions) .... he's probably going to do better than in the Merc.
It will be so interesting to see if the Ferrari is ‘easier’.
I think this year's car is much easier than the previous ones. The old ones warmed up their tyres fast and were quick in qualifying, Leclerc took a lot of poles, but they just ate their tyres in races. My feeling is that Leclerc will probably have an edge in qualifying but Hamilton will match him in race pace if the car is well balanced. If the car's a dog, I can see it ending up like Prost and Ferrari.
I thought Hamiltons "I'm just slow now" comment was just a sign that he'd mentally checked out of Mercedes a couple of races ago. I can't blame him. Why push yourself to the edge in what remains a very risky occupation when you know you're moving on anyway? Given where Mercedes are in the Constructors championship maybe they should have done an Alpine and got someone else into the car for a couple of races.