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thols2
Joe Saward has an excellent column on it. He’s fairly careful, I assume the threat of lawsuits is hanging over every journalist who reports on it. Saward does note that the screenshots of the text messages taken many months ago indicate “CH typing”. I think this is meant to imply that this was a honeytrap, where the female employee initially consented but then later complained about unwanted attention. If the KC’s finding was that the evidence wasn’t credible and that the female employee was not honest about the facts, that would justify retaining Horner and suspending the female employee. But, who really knows?
Yes it's an interesting piece, Joe is usually good to listen to on Missed Apex etc. But having read this a couple of times I found it a bit unsavoury, Joe seems more concerned about morality of the leak than the allegations.
He also says there was "no evidence of wrongdoing"... well no, actually we don't know what the investigation found. Only that Red Bull dismissed the grievance. The lawyer could have recommended that they sack Horner. But perhaps he has information not in the public eye that he cannot reveal.
On that point though, you have to bear in mind with Saward, he gets his stories by talking to people in the paddock. If he annoys them, no more stories.
I found it a bit unsavoury, Joe seems more concerned about morality of the leak than the allegations
One thing to keep in mind with Saward on this is that his sister was brutally raped and later committed suicide (as I remember it, whatever the details, it must have been harrowing for him and his family). His writing and some of the comments seem to reflect that. I think he found it a very painful topic to write about.
Imagine if the whole thing had been an invention of the accuser and that the independent investigation had proven this.
"Time to draw a line under all this" says Horner as a whistleblower in his team is suspended.
Fairness and inclusivity, anyone?
"This crap isn’t doing anyone any good & the employee being suspended is just another level of PR mishandling. It just looks terrible and if they keep this up, isn’t going to go away for a while.:"
I agree, in the absence of any details it does feel like chucking petrol at the fire
The story has made the fornt page on the BBC News website again, you don't normally see anything F1 related there unless Hamilton wins a championship
Benson says she's been dismissed for being dishonest
- Alonso is tge fastest in FP2, followed by Russell
That would be a lovely way to start on Saturday!
Having read the latest from the BBC regarding Horner, I'm left wondering why it took a week to suspend the employee, why not suspend both whilst the case is being investigated.
It also goes on to say that Honda are also unhappy with the lack of clarity surrounding the issues.
The whole thing is so opaque as to be laughable. It's always worth having in the back of your mind while the race team refuse to name the KC involved, give any insight at all as to the outcome, but insist that it's all been a legitimate process that's been honest open and thorough, and that a junior female employee has entirely fabricated the whole thing and is so dishonest as to be sacked; that Horner is not just an appointed manager, he's essentially the owner of that team. I will be entirely not-astonished if its reported that the employee has been legally lent on regarding contact with the media
I look at the body language between Horner and his wife, and it tells its own story. As some-one up thread said, F1 is a world where morality and honesty have been removed and replaced with money and power.
Imagine if the whole thing had been an invention of the accuser and that the independent investigation had proven this.
Maybe she'd been put up to it by Jos Verstappen to undermine Horner and get him out and now that's come to light and Jos is throwing his toys out and trying to get Max into a Mercedes. There's been madder conspiracy theories.
I've not seen the messages though, do we think they were genuine? Were they bad enough to get Horner dismissed if they were?
.
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Just had a look to see if I could find any odds for a punt on Sainz winning the 2025 championship but can't find anyone taking bets on that. Hamilton, to Ferrari, Verstappen to Merc then Sainz to RB for the last year of the current regs with the fastest car, it sounds plausible
Just had a look to see if I could find any odds for a punt on Sainz winning the 2025 championship but can’t find anyone taking bets on that.
Well... at the minute he doesn't have a car to drive! 🙂
That's why I thought I'd get decent odds🤣
I’ve not seen the messages though, do we think they were genuine?
The messages go from about a year. Mar 23- Jan 24. they start pretty boringly, mostly work, then get jokily flirty, but by the end its like you're reading the private messages between people who are intimate, honestly; it feels a bit invasive reading them. Now, there are Apps that will allow you to replicate WhatsApp log ins, so who knows, maybe the whole thing's a figment of her imagination, and its entirely made up, but there are pictures of Horner in the chat that would seem on the face of it, pretty difficult to create, and again, Geri's public appearances don't look like she thinks its entirely made up. I would say though, I reckon that releasing them to the public in the way they were was absolutely an attempt to get Horner to resign by some-one interested in making that happen. Whether that had anything to do with the female employee is another thing altogether.
Going full Weinstein by firing the woman involved and then telling everyone shes a liar is a terrible look in 2024. Really thought we'd got past that now.
Even the torygraph are unimpressed https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2024/03/08/christian-horner-red-bull-saudi-international-womens-day/
Maybe she’d been put up to it by Jos Verstappen to undermine Horner and get him out and now that’s come to light and Jos is throwing his toys out and trying to get Max into a Mercedes.
"Hi there female friend, I was wondering if you could help me out, settling a grudge that even I dont fully remember by taking on one of the most powerful people in your industry. Of course, you'll almost certainly ruin the career you've been building over the last 10 years, and completely destabilise one of the most successful teams ever. I really do hate him though, so do us a solid, and put in a completely fabricated grievence after collating evidence for the next year please."
Imagine if the whole thing had been an invention of the accuser and that the independent investigation had proven this.
Then the messages would not have been leaked.
And Horner could clearly state they were false rather than 'I did nothing wrong'.
In my view it's clear retaliation, but hey! the woman must be lying...
Who knows what's been going on, certainly none of us, so all we have is speculation. What is old as time is that rumour & gossip expand to fill a vacuum, and RB could take definitive steps to end this sorry saga once and for all.
That said, Liberty Media are struggling to enthuse the public with their golden goose, and they're getting an awful lot of column inches out of this ridiculous salacious-love-interest plotline that frankly no F1 fans want or need.
Horner is not just an appointed manager, he’s essentially the owner of that team.
He doesn't own the team, he's an appointed manager. If the Thai shareholders (who own 51% of shares of the parent company) want him gone, he'll be gone.
What it looks like is that the Austrian side are unhappy with the autonomy that the F1 team has and they want more control, but the Thai side are happy with Horner. The screenshots of the messages taken by the female employee apparently show "CH typing," which may be an indication that she was taking screenshots many, many months before she made a complaint (because it suggests the screenshot was taken right after the message was sent, not months later). On top of that, screenshots of text messages would be trivial to fake so some screenshots by themselves prove nothing without forensic evidence about their authenticity. We don't know what actually happened, but if she did deliberately lead Horner on, collect seemingly incriminating screenshots, and then misrepresent what really happened, that would justify her dismissal on the grounds of dishonesty.
She has the right to appeal the dismissal. If it really was retaliation and she did nothing wrong, she deserves a large payout as compensation. If she deliberately misrepresented the facts with the intention of having Horner dismissed, she deserves to be named and shamed. The only way we'll find out is if she appeals the dismissal, without that, all we have is speculation.
The screenshots of the messages taken by the female employee apparently show “CH typing,” which may be an indication that she was taking screenshots many, many months before she made a complaint (because it suggests the screenshot was taken right after the message was sent, not months later).
All it suggests is that CH was typing at the time she took the screenshots.
For example: he could have said "delete this conversation", then she goes back through the convo and screenshots everything while he is typing his following message: "it makes things safer for both of us"
He doesn’t own the team, he’s an appointed manager.
Sure, what I meant (didn't really say very well) is that at Milton Keynes, at the race team he is effectually the top man, he decides the direction, he decides what happens and what doesn't happen, and he doesn't have to explain himself to anyone. Certainly as far as the female employee with whom he starts flirting with is concerned, there's no-one above Horner she can go to and say "look at what this other employee is doing"
All it suggests is that CH was typing at the time she took the screenshots.
True, but if Red Bull are going to sack the guy over screenshots of text messages, there needs to be corroborating forensic evidence that the complainant's account is factual. This wasn't like Harvey Weinstein or Donald Trump, where there were multiple women with similar accounts, it's a single complainant whose account apparently differs from Horner's. If the other evidence doesn't support her account, then Horner would have a case against Red Bull for unfair dismissal. Given that he apparently earns 15 million per year, that's going to be quite the compensation payout if Horner won in court.
It's the power imbalance that makes it improper.
If there was relations between a PA and the wheel gun man, it wouldn't have this coercive element that makes it distasteful. The suspension of this woman were CH was allowed to have business as usual just underlines it.
And if you look back at how he treated his previous squeeze before Angry Spice slid into the picture, you'll see he has form as being a class A dirtbag
there’s no-one above Horner she can go to and say “look at what this other employee is doing”
But she did do that. That's why Red Bull had an inquiry into it. I would be surprised if her firing was on the instruction of Horner. Red Bull hired a KC to investigate, he would have reported back about his findings. Her sacking would have been done after Red Bull lawyers looked over the evidence and gave an all clear (unless Horner and Red Bull are spectacularly stupid, which can't be completely ruled out to be fair.)
there’s no-one above Horner she can go to and say “look at what this other employee is doing”
They don't need to go above Horner - they can go to HR or whatever they call it, who can and should act in spite of who he is. If they are unable to, that's a toxic environment in itself.
I'm also aware (not saying it's right) that sports teams don't have the same 'rules' as normal workplaces. I played decent level sport and someof our dressing room discussions were very robust at times; and at high level it would be even more - not unheard of for the manager to throw teacups at people for example.
you’ll see he has form as being a class A dirtbag
I don't like Horner, he's an awful man, but that doesn't make him guilty of this. In situations like this, the company has to investigate and determine the facts. If they didn't any employee could have a superior dismissed just by alleging harassment. Wanting the allegations to be true doesn't make them true. If the employee has misrepresented the events in order to have Horner sacked, then the wrongdoing is on her part, not his.
I would be surprised if her firing was on the instruction of Horner.
Has she been fired? Thought it was just suspended at this stage but I could be wrong.
dakuan
Free MemberGoing full Weinstein by firing the woman involved and then telling everyone shes a liar is a terrible look in 2024. Really thought we’d got past that now.
Even the torygraph are unimpressed https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2024/03/08/christian-horner-red-bull-saudi-international-womens-day//blockquote >
Blimey, I had to check that quote in there from Amanda Phillips, "Commercial Operations Coordinator for BWT Alpine F1" was real
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Nothing like being chucked in at the deep end!...
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/carlos-sainz-out-of-saudi-arabian-grand-prix-bearman-f1-debut/
Beaten to it by 7 seconds! 🙂
Beaten to it by 7 seconds
Which is what I expect Ollie may well say about pole position later
(hope I'm wrong and he properly steps up!)
the-muffin-man
Full MemberBeaten to it by 7 seconds! 🙂
thepurist
Which is what I expect Ollie may well say about pole position later
Posted 34 seconds ago
ooooof 😀
I listened to F1:chequered flag this morning. They all agreed that just because Horner and Red Bull want everyone to put this behind them and move on, it's not going to happen until there's transparency. Also Benson said there's more to come and that he's working on some more info.....whatever that means.
Gutted for Sainz...would love to have seen him beat Leclerc this year...trickier if he has to miss a few races
As much as Horner wants it all to go away and people are now starting to wonder if it's all been made up/orchestrated....the press have been biting their tongues so there's obviously more known in the paddock and by journos.
How much testing has Bearmam had? FP3 and then straight into quali is a big ask! At least he knows the circuit though.
I'm hoping for Lawson levels of impressiveness but TBF with that much notice and practice just not binning it will get him some kudos
As the reserve driver I'd like to think he gets regular simulator sessions, so he'd be familiar with the car, and the team.
Back to Horner/Ben Sulyamwhatever his name is- listening to Chequered Flag podcast, Benson kept referring to the whistle-blower - I just thought of Jos.
Blimey what an opportunity. I hope he has time to soak it all up. I'll be cheering him on. 👍
I don’t understand why a KC running the investigation means anything. KCs are hired to represent the interests of thier client. They aren’t independent, hence why both sides have one in a court case. This investigation is no more independent than if Horner had run it himself
The KC is usually hired to give the position of "if I were judging this case/tribunal, then this is what I'd decide from the evidence I have..."
So while the KC isn't "independent" because they're paid by RB, they are trying to give an impartial view. Think about what would happen if the KC got it wrong to RB, and it went to court.
I don’t understand why a KC running the investigation means anything
As per the Mikado "Merely collaborative detail intended to lend artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative"
KCs are hired to represent the interests of thier client. They aren’t independent, hence why both sides have one in a court case. This investigation is no more independent than if Horner had run it himself
In this case the KC was hired to investigate the facts and give a legal opinion. That's a completely different thing than representing a client in court - they're an investigator, not an advocate. It's an internal HR matter because no complaint was made to legal authorities, but a KC should be smart enough to know that their report might end up as evidence in a court case. They will get paid exactly the same regardless of whether they recommend that Horner be sacked or not sacked so it would be pretty dumb of them to write a report that would be discredited in court and ruin their reputation.
So while the KC isn’t “independent” because they’re paid by RB, they are trying to give an impartial view.
Are they or are they there to give a veneer of impartiality to their clients preferred outcome? I imagine RB buy quite a lot of KC time each year
Maybe RB have just followed the process laid down in their own organisation for complaints of this sort? I'd imagine that's a common approach. If either party is unhappy with the decision then a right of appeal will be available and if either party is subsequently fired then I'd expect some legal claim of unfair dismissal might happen too.
Verstappen looking very quick. Dammit
Logan not so much
"the car won't steer right"
hardly a surprise after you wang it into the wall 🙂
That Sauber is going to need a bit of fixing before qualifying
simondbarnes
Full MemberThat Sauber is going to need a bit of fixing before qualifying
Yeah big hit on to the rear wheels, could be a gearbox too.
Last five minutes of the session.
Bearman looking pretty impressive on track
Already going 10 seconds faster than this time yesterday. That’ll take some adjusting to!
Have Mercedes installed an anchor on Lewis's car?
And why have they gone higher downforce for him on one of the fastest tracks of the season. 🤔
Coz he complained about not enough rear downforce.
Boom! Science.
Bearman makes it out of Q1
WTAF?! "And now it appears that Marko, who has served as the team’s driver programme boss and senior advisor since their formation, could be drawn into the dramas.
Austrian broadcaster ORF brought up a rumour to Marko that he will be suspended by Red Bull and therefore miss the round after Saudi Arabia, the Australian Grand Prix, Marko admitting that the “theoretical possibility exists” that this could come to pass."
Is Marko the leak?
Such a dysfunctional team right now. I was wondering if it was a power struggle between Marko and Christian Horner
It’ll be a right turn-up if Red Bull end up selling the team to Horner and then he sells on to Ford! 🤣
That Mercedes is not doing half as well as they thought it would
Impressive quali from Bearmam
Limited running at an unforgiving track, as only just missed on out getting into Q3
RB are the gift that keeps on giving!
Marko is facing suspension and Verstappen has said his future hinges on Marcos future!
International Womens Day
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What’s your point. Or do you get to decide what careers everyone chooses to follow.
You ok, hun?
Sometimes a picture paints a thousand words.
Red Bull (as a brand) seems to have suffered a crisis of culture after Dietrich Mateschitz died. Everything seems to point to a political battle consuming it.
Bit of a shame since the only mountain biking I was likely to watch this year was RB events. It's starting to feel a bit dirty even doing that.
Red Bull (as a brand) seems to have suffered a crisis of culture after Dietrich Mateschitz died
Their culture was set up under his watch. What we're seeing now is fighting over the empire he left behind by the people that he hired. I personally find all the people involved extremely dislikeable - Jos Verstappen and Helmut Marko especially, but Christian Horner and the Thai side of the ownership are also impossible to find likeable. But this is the culture that Mateschitz set up, it's not like Marko and Horner suddenly turned to the dark side as soon as he died.
Is it possible that the FIA are setting Red Bull up as pantomime villans for people to hate, like in that dodgy wrestling format?
International Womens Day
Jesus Christ….wtf were they drinking when this was decided as a good idea?
Jesus Christ….wtf were they drinking when this was decided as a good idea?
Surely it's not real ?!
Is it possible that the FIA are setting Red Bull up as pantomime villans for people to hate
Is it possible that Red Bull did this to themselves and the FIA have nothing to do with it apart from watching in horror and disgust?
Jesus Christ….wtf were they drinking when this was decided as a good idea?
I know fancy thinking women need a special day for no apparent reason
They’ve screwed Lewis again - why not pit? Even if there’s another safety car he’ll be even further behind the leaders as they won’t need to stop again.
Bearman’s excellent race has also shown there are far too many seat-hoggers in F1. The genuinely good drivers are on it from day 1 and don’t need years to settle in. Drivers I’d like to see go are…
Yuki
Ricciardo (had his time)
Sargeant - it’s not happening is it really
Magnusson (again had his time)
…and biggest seat hogger of all - Stroll.
Add Hulkenberg to that list
I think Hulk would do better than Checo if you gave him that car.
Well this is going to be a long season isn't it!.
So much dead wood in F1
Ricciardo, its time to go, McLaren were right to pay you to leave.
Stroll, just daddy's little play thing.
Sargent, has never been up to it.
Hulkenburg, was allergic to the podium even in his prime.
Magnussen, has never been that great.
Bottas, living off his past.
Zhou, only reason he is in F1 is because of the Chinese market.
Haas, costs less to run a team than the exposure they get.
Alpine, always someone else's fault.
Sauber, Seidl and Key are working real miracles aren't they. Audi must be well happy!
All of them can go and no one would notice.
18yr old lad (with admitted talent - though only came 6th in F2 last year as he settled in) sits in actual car for first time 24hrs before race, drives around a bit and 11 other drivers with a shed ton more experience are not in a position to beat him through a combination of lack of talent, lack of machinery and lack of overtaking opportunity within the track and race design. Meanwhile at the front, a bloke who has previously won 36 out of the last 45 races won again without being challenged in any way whatsoever. Remind me again why this is a series worth following right now?