England looked terrified. Hence the complete failure to play out from the back, the rabbit in the headlights freezing as soon as we got the ball, before passing it sideways a couple of times and then back to Pickford. And it was finally exemplified in about the 85th minute when, desperate for a goal, we got a throw in near their corner flag on the right. A chance to get it into the box, maybe make something happen. Walker launched it back to Stones on the halfway line, who turned round and passed it all the way back to Pickford again, who promptly lumped it up the pitch and lost possession (again).
Whenever we had the ball, they harried and pressed us, whenever they had it, we stood back in fear and awe and waited to see what they would do.
So odd, considering they're all such good players the rest of the year. Still though, some bright spots for the future I guess. And Spain were clearly an excellent team, they deserved it, no doubt.
Yep, thought Shaw really controlled the wonderkid pretty well.
The draw was too kind to England (as in the last Euros) which meant that a poor Dutch side was the first heavyweight England faced after struggling against the Balkan sides.
Still, I'd be well pleased if we got to a final in any world sport.
The constant long balls from Pickford were very strange, some of the defenders were asking for the ball and were visibly refused.
I'm not claiming to be a tactical genius, but I'm looking back at previous posts and our single biggest error is clear to me.
After we won the semi someone asked 'How do we play against Spain?' and I said - the same way we've played against others and let them worry about us or words to that effect.
The BBC did a piece in the preview about the danger of the Spanish high press, and undoubtedly it is. But they also showed the spaces that open up if the press is beaten. As I posted last night.
For all the talent we have we just lacked the balls to try and play through the press. Gave up on that as an option because we were scared of losing it at the back and then had almost no chance of getting space on the ball.
We conceded that battle almost from the start, and went to longer balls that a relatively immobile Kane wasn't getting near. I don't know if it was a game plan, or fear of failing. I don't 'blame' Pickford as such; sure, he decided to play long in the end but equally just playing short when he has possibly the better visibility of a trap being set would be brave. But that's the gamble the BBC laid out, you have to take the trap on and if you do the rewards are there.
Who knows, we may have given away another soft goal like the NL one and then been even more scared. We may have sprung the trap and created a chance or scored ourselves, getting the Spanish then thinking if the press is too risky. If the likes of Bellingham, Saka, Foden can get on the ball with the opposition behind them in a beaten press then we can be very dangerous, the only time they really got on the ball they had 10 defenders to play through.
We don't know whether we are their counter-equals or not, because we never really tried to equal them at football. In the end, just lacked the balls to do it.
People saying Kane is past it seen to be forgetting that he was the top scorer in Germany this year.
And the (equal) top scorer in the tournament
Kane scored 3 goals.
1 penalty.
1 complete fluke that needed a defender's error and then 2 weird deflections.
He had a very poor tournament.
Doesn't mean he's not a good footballer but he's very ineffective in that England team.
Mrs TiRed, who follows no football but dutifully sat through the game, said Harry Kane looked tired and didn't seem to run fast! Every time he came off, we played better. One third of all his goals for England have been from penalties (this competition included).
Not exactly Nostradamus territory, but still funny:
EDIT: Oh never mind, they actually said quarters!
Well England finally got what they deserved. They should never have got past the second round with that dreadful anti-football. I thought it couldn't get much worse than the earlier games and then Southgate sent them out to play early 90s hoofball. It was like watching Jack Charlton's Irish team. Playing those tactics with those players is a crime against the sport.
Well England finally got what they deserved.
They lost by one goal to the best team in the tournament. There's some truly ludicrous hyperbole on this thread.
They lost by one goal to the best team in the tournament.
They were very poor.
They had 35% possession.
They were set up poorly.
The players underperformed, IMO because of the tactics.
The manager constantly started under performing players.
The constant long balls from the keeper was very strange.
The constant long balls from the keeper was very strange.
It was frustrating to see, but in the context of a game in which we appeared incapable of dealing with the Spanish press, and it seemed like our players had lost faith in their ability to play quick one touch passing, it makes sense that they felt the only other option was to try and go over the top.
I disagree with dazh in that I don't think this was Southgate's instruction - they didn't do it straight away. They tried and failed to play out for the first half hour or so. And then gave up
IMO it is Southgate's instructions, and it is a "tactic" he has had them implementing for years, in fact I would go as far as to say it is the only clear tactic that the team display with any regularity.
Pickford is pretty good with his feet, but he isn't good at decision making in his distribution, he just boots it up to Kane whatever, he doesn't seem to look if he is swamped with defenders or free in space.
I disagree with dazh in that I don’t think this was Southgate’s instruction
It was a combination of instruction and the direct result of Southgate picking a centre forward who couldn't run. I have no argument with setting them up defensively against such quality opposition, but you have to have an outlet so you can break on transition. Instead of Watkins or Toney being ready on the halfway line to run behind the defence when England get the ball in their own half, they had Harry Kane standing around out of position facing his own goal. The result then is losing the ball when the midfield reach a deadend, or back to the keeper whilst already under pressure which results in a hoof forward.
England had one difficult game in the whole tournament and still messed it up.
Southgate is a dreadful manager. Absolutely woeful.
Consistently picking players on reputation rather than form.
Kane is a classic example. Should've been dropped after the first game, at worst the second group game. Shows how weak and gutless Southgate is. probably shouldn't have even taken him given how he 'performed'.
I do enjoy all the hype before a ball is kicked and how many fans and pundits believe the England team is packed with world class talent, in spite of what they watch with their own eyes.
All very very funny/entertaining to sit back and watch it all unfold.
Then you get the England fans. Who are without a shadow of doubt the lowest of the low and a total embarrassment.
A far higher percentage of knuckle dragging morons than any other nation, probably all put together.
Videos all over social media today from many parts of the UK of the England fans fighting each other, or attempting to.
The Irish, Welsh, Scottish can all travel without incident in the main. I was at Euro 2016 and saw this with my own eyes with Welsh and Irish fans. All nations are welcomed back by the host countries.
The English? They cannot wait to see the back of them. What did the England lot do at Euro 2016? Started scrapping with the Russian mob and trashed town centres and local businesses - which is a common theme with England fans. Drink too much, try to offend everyone in sight and then the one pint van damme's kick off with anyone in spitting distance.
Agree with pretty much everything theotherjonv said - I would also add, that Spain absolutely dominated midfield. When we did that to the Dutch Koeman put an extra man in midfield & shortly after bought on a target man.
Last night was crying out for an extra man in midfield just to break up the Spanish rhythm.
I'm sure Gareth knows best - but when the team have stumbled into a formation that works & is balanced did he change shape back to 4 at the back.
While he's done a great job as England manager, it feels the way the draws have opened up at the last few (2022 is the exception) tournaments we should've been able to get at least one across the line.
You just have to find a way, or a manager, who can do better with the players they'll have to pick from, England probably have the strongest squad of players, but there were a lot of individuals on the pitch during this tournament for them, just seems to be too many not doing what they do for their club at international, i don't mean that negatively, i mean that in their position and mindset, they are changing to fit in, rather than being built for the best overall team.
As for midfield, i'd be on the phone to Roy Keane to get some advice, that midfield has not worked this tournament, and i know it was Spain yesterday, but they lost Pedri early in this tournament and Rodri yesterday, there was a real chance to press that midfield into mistakes, but it was never happening.
i’d be on the phone to Roy Keane to get some advice,
His advice would be if you're not happy with the manager go home.
I’m sure Gareth knows best – but when the team have stumbled into a formation that works & is balanced did he change shape back to 4 at the back.
My ill informed tactical analysis - 3 center backs and wing backs pushing high would have left a lot of space for Spain's wingers, who were a lot more dangerous than previous opponents. Having the wing backs sit deeper would probably mean starting an extra defensive player, which is a hard call to make. The 5 in previous matches looked like it shifted to a 4 quite fluidly anyway with Saka and Walker playing down the right.
Walker and Shaw seemed to do a really good job of shutting down Williams and Yamal in the first half when they were trying to take them on one-on-one. After half time those two were dropping off and picking up the ball in space or making later runs.
Southgate is a dreadful manager. Absolutely woeful.
how did all the others do, post Alf Ramsay? Better, I assume?
Shows how weak and gutless Southgate is. probably shouldn’t have even taken him given how he ‘performed’.
joint winner of the golden boot?
Shared with 5 other players.
3 goals.
1 penalty.
1 that came for a mistake and then 2 weird deflections.
Kane was woeful in this competition.
Not sure where all the woe is coming from. Against all expectations here and elsewhere we made the final, for heavens sake, could have got an equaliser in the last minute (ball headed off the line) ! I wouldn’t have picked Kane either, but I’m not the manager ?♂️
One of the greatest of his generation, Cristiano Ronaldo, missed a penalty. Doesn’t really matter how the goals get scored, point is they do, and he got as many as anyone else.
My ill informed tactical analysis – 3 center backs and wing backs pushing high would have left a lot of space for Spain’s wingers, who were a lot more dangerous than previous opponents. Having the wing backs sit deeper would probably mean starting an extra defensive player, which is a hard call to make. The 5 in previous matches looked like it shifted to a 4 quite fluidly anyway with Saka and Walker playing down the right.
In my ill informed tactical opinion, one way to stop the wingers having a free run is to keep them occupied chasing back at overlapping full backs. A couple of times Saka and Walker combined really well (second time iirc Saka didn't play Walker in - wrongly) and we ended up having to chase back. Sure it is a risk but if you just hand possession to a team like Spain then they'll do you in the end.
You have to make them at least answer your questions, and in the way we played against the press, and the way we stopped taking risks going forward meant we didn't ask enough of the right sort. The only consistent one we seemed to ask was whether they could defend against a palpably unfit, immobile 9
Spain were clearly the better team & they deserved to win. However, if the second Spanish goal had been offside (& there was only inches in it) & the header off the line had gone in, Gareth Southgate would be a genius. Fine margins.Such is the the way of football. England did OK & got to the final. Only one other team did.
Hmm at the end of the day it was 2-1, and as above, 2nd goal offside and one of three headers in that melee had gone in we'd be in a different place.
Seems like most people would like to start crashing out to Iceland at the quarters again...
Southgate has won more knockout games than all the other England managers since 66.. combined. But still it's woeful and antifootball
You have to make them at least answer your questions, and in the way we played against the press, and the way we stopped taking risks going forward meant we didn’t ask enough of the right sort. The only consistent one we seemed to ask was whether they could defend against a palpably unfit, immobile 9
Yeah I don't think it was a good performance overall but neither side produced much in the first half. Problem was Spain adapted and England didn't seem able to.
i’d be on the phone to Roy Keane to get some advice
Because he was such a successful manager?
Seems like most people would like to start crashing out to Iceland at the quarters again…
Or crashing out of the World Cup at the earliest opportunity. Short memories in this thread...
Classic stuff by Spain to come absolutely racing out of the blocks straight after half time, we could have taken the initiative.
After they scored I thought the only way your going to get past them is quick breaks, the two banks of 4 were so adept at closing down we could have sat there all day, we scored off a quick'ish break before they got set up.
Kane is not quick enough but we have the players who are, give yourself some options - being brave has been mentioned a bunch of times but it's that.
We have to break this hoodoo, I think when we do we'll realize it's not impossible and expect to win rather than run around being scared of losing
I've heard a couple of things that it wasn't as happy a camp as it has been in the past. Obvs in a tournament with a 26 man squad some players will have limited or no game time but some rumours of almost being excluded from a bit of a core set of players.
And also some jealousy or whatever the right word is at Bellingham. Came into tournament on the back of the season he had at Real Madrid, TBH he disappointed me a bit overall, but in a sparkling 45 mins at the start of game 1, and of course that moment against Slovakia, got loads of good press. There was a bit of petulance at times on the pitch but he's 20 - the running at the cameras shouting 'Who else!' is a fine margin - you want supreme confidence in your ability but if you feel a teammate is getting favourite treatment then it can wear a bit. I heard he was added to the senior players group....not sure that's right, you want tournament nous in that, not raw talent which is for the pitch.
I don't know if I believe it - I know there's shots of Gordon looking glum at not being called upon for example, but that is natural, he was player of the tournament for the U21's a year ago and in the 5 mins he got showed some quality. And at the end yesterday Bellingham was around consoling everyone like a leader. This was Southgate's big strength, in the squad cohesion, the togetherness.... I hope they haven't lost that and he or whoever else they replace him with can get that back.
Because he was such a successful manager?
I was on about Mainoo and Rice getting tips on moving the ball through midfield.
An article in the Graun about that throw in I was grumbling about earlier. It was the 75th rather than 85th minute. But it still felt symbolic:
So Southgate's gone - not sure who will replace him. But I predict the same level of abuse from the media.
Glad he's gone - but nervous about who they get in - fingers crossed it won't be someone like Lampard or Gerrard
I would just like to take this opportunity to be the first to say that the new manager is a dribbling cretin without an ounce of football nous. He needs to go!
Klopp?
Who the hell would want the job?
Get into back to back finals and the latter stages of other tournaments and get dogs abuse for your troubles. You'd have to be an absolute masochist!
Who the hell would want the job?
What's it paying? I'll have a go at it
Who the hell would want the job?
£5 million a year?
I think if smug Eddie is prepared to leave Newcastle then the FA will go for him, but I've said for a while that I think Graham Potter has been lined up to replace Southgate. Mainly based on the fact he's turned down so many jobs since Chelsea and just seems like he was waiting for something (could just be enjoying the pay off from Chelsea though). He's definitely a better coach than Southgate, if you look at their club record, and tactically Potter is pretty good too. Though I do wonder how well some of his sometimes leftfield decisions to play players in odd positions will go down though.
If the FA want to appoint an English manager then I think it’s going to be a Head Coach from the Championship.
Eddie Howe and Gary ONeil are unlikely to be interested and Steve Cooper has recently joined Leicester.
The only other coach who knows the players and the Premier League who’s available is Poch but again, why would he be interested?
Edit, I forgot about Potter, I think you’re probably right.
Get Nigel Clough in - he's got great form in polishing turds! 🙂
Yes he has gone finally, enjoy your knighthood Southgate and your Millions thanks for all your work.
Klopps having a rest before the Germany job. All fule no that. Pep - no chance - not interested., and he won't get the time to mould them to what he wants to do. What's Potter doing?
I’ve heard a couple of things that it wasn’t as happy a camp as it has been in the past.
Looked pretty good to me. One of SOuthgates big wins has been that the camp hasn't been as cliquy and disjointed, unhappy as it has been in the past when there have been big splits based on team, N vs .S, race..
FA may well promote Lee Carsley (currently England U21 coach), just like they did with Southgate - and obv they were very happy with the end result of their decision to do so.
Potter has been out of the game for too long and hasn't proved much beyond producing patterns of pretty play without an end product. Sure, he didn't have the players to finish off those moves, but IMO he should have taken another role last year and proved his credentials.
Howe is a good shout, certainly more progressive than the man departing.
There's logic to doing everything possible to entice Klopp to take it now or Pep to take it next summer. Both options would surely elevate our team to the top tier.
I expect it'll be Potter. It felt like the right time for Southgate to move on, maybe the haters will come to realise that overall he did an excellent job. Geoff Hurst thought so, anyway.
Eddie is my guess.
Steve Bruce.
Neil Warnock is a shoe in !
Southgate did a great job in building a team spirit (although there does seem to have been some leaks that was more PR than reality) and it is hard to imagine anyone could have dealt with the external pressures around taking the knee and the political attacks that brought any better.
However he was tactically so far behind even average managers, he is just another ex international regurgitating the training he did as a player without any knowledge of the patterns of play he needs to develop with the players he has.
I think it would be a good idea if they made him some kind of director of football at the FA to take the external pressures off any new manager, just let them get on with the job of coaching the team, IMO that would/could work really well.
The FA probably want Howe but will appoint Potter for no other reason that he’ll cost a lot less. Newcastle will want a lot of money in compensation to release Howe from his contract.
Steve Bruce
After watching England over the last few weeks I was beginning to think it was Steve Bruce in a Southgate mask, exactly like watching Newcastle before Eddie Howe took over
Big Sam has served his time on the naughty step, Shirley?
tomhoward has it - time to bring back one of the old masters; in addition to Allardyce, other contenders are Hodgson and McClaren.
Potter has been out of the game for too long and hasn’t proved much beyond producing patterns of pretty play without an end product.
Blimey he's only been out of a job for just over a year. Makes me feel a bit weird sticking up for him but, in the last 6-9 months he was at Brighton it finally seemed to click, we won something like 7 out of 9 games at the end of the 21-22 season and took us to our then highest league finish of 9th and then the start of the following season we won 4 drew 1 and lost 1 and were 4th in the league before he buggered off to Chelsea. He even started well at Chelsea pretty sure he was unbeaten before we got our sweet revenge and battered Chelsea at home before the wheels fell off.
Was always going to happen, Southgate is a nice bloke, but just doesn't seem to get the best out of the resources he has, it's no slight, as many international managers seem to be the same, look at Deschamps in France, and Germany these days.
I just think that there's a lot of decent 25 or under players for England just now, some of the old guard are on the way out, a new manager might make it easier to make tweaks with Kane and so on, rather than feel it's letting down his core players.
Not sure where he'll go now, international to domestic never works that often, could he be the new face of commentary somewhere?
back to ordering pizzas wearing a brown paper bag?
Big Sam. Its been a week for miracle comebacks.
How about Roberto Martinez. He’s got form in failing with talented squads - the Belgians and now Portuguese.
Thomas Frank should be the answer.
but just doesn’t seem to get the best out of the resources he has, it’s no slight, as many international managers seem to be the same, look at Deschamps
Hasn't he won a world cup ? Though they also had the same problem as England in that they couldn't get the attack working properly.
I'd bear in mind that if the FA appointed a manager with a similar record to the Spanish (which has worked out well) the pundits, papers etc. would go mental.
Why do they have to be English?
Doesn't have to be but it's preferable, especially for a country with a big history and a big league system.
It really isn't necessary though.
That is such a parochial attitude.
Yeah there was no major outcry at Sven and that was over 20 years ago. More of an outcry at his lack of tactical acumen, rightly.
Terrible shortlist.
Howe and Potter ? really ?? on the back of what exactly ??
Lampard and Gerrard ? Surprised the FA don't appoint them both, they never could face leaving one of them out. Probably offer Scholes the job of bucket and Sponge man under them.
Once again, decent squad of players, no one even remotely good enough to manage them.
It's all fun working out who's next, i'm not English, but i think Unai Emery would be a great shout for England manager, he's been around the premiership on and off, has flair and i could see him working out the pieces to build a decent team.
i think Unai Emery would be a great shout for England
Why on earth would he leave Villa for the England job?
Southgate has once again read the room correctly and called time just before people got properly fed up. Overall, I think he emerges with great credit, not least restoring pride in the national team - with both players and fans. Just a thought for the Eddie Howe promoters......both at The Toon and Bournemouth he seems to have encouraged a really niggly way of playing the game and that will not endear the team to anyone. Where Southgate came up short this time around was, having been brave and left some favourite big names out of the squad, he then fell into the old England manager trap of trying to accommodate all of his remaining favourites into the eleven without properly adjusting the system. Now, some of this boiled down to the left back problem in early games but it manifested itself most painfully up front where there was woeful lack of movement and spontaneity for too long.
It's just the normal procession of big names who would never in a million years want the job, especially those who have managed in England and seen what a mauling the press gives the England manager. Klopp/Pep/Emery would be insane to even consider it.
And then settling for someone mediocre who has managed a couple of Premiership clubs but won nothing.
And then settling for someone mediocre who has managed a couple of Premiership clubs but won nothing.
Steve Bruce?
I think we're ready for Sean Dyche, frankly.
On a more serious note, could we tempt Marcelo Bielsa over from Uruguay? That would make England watchable (including the post-match press conferences), although possibly not any more successful.
The players’ egos couldn’t cope with Bielsa. He’d have them picking up litter etc outside Wembley etc.
Why on earth would (insert name of manager here) leave (insert name of club here) for the England job?
I can’t see why anyone would join that graveyard of careers to deal with the ludicrous expectation and constant abuse. If you were actually any good, you wouldn’t have to give it much thought about dodging that particular bullet
The names being mentioned this morning - Poch, Klopp etc - wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole
Howe and Potter ? really ?? on the back of what exactly ??
Being English and doing a moderately good job of managing a premier league team. Being a premier league manager is a much more demanding job than England manager where you only play a few games per season and get to pick the best talent avaialble irregardless of price. International football is not the pinnacle of the sport.
Harry Kane
Neither is Newcastle
?♂️
Neither is Newcastle
No but I reckon managing any premier league club is a more challenging and rewarding job than being England manager. Managing England is the sort of thing you do when you've nothing left to prove at club level or if you've already failed at it (like Southgate and Allerdyce). With that in mind Lampard or Gerrard would be ideal candidates.
Gazza? It would make a fabulous Netflix show.
