[Closed] Flu jab, worth it?

Flu jab will only protect against certain strains, and apparently not the ones you are likely to encounter this year.

After getting the flu last year, I got a (free from work) flu jab end of last year, and haven't had the flu....so far.  More luck than anything else though probably.

How much does it cost?  £10, £15.  It will not guarantee you won't get the flu, but might reduce the chances by a few %.  Worth it for a tenner I'd say.

Likewise, thinks its £12 in co-op pharmacy, since having a bad bout a few years back I've had the jab every year. Waste of a tenner, maybe, but I dont seem to get any side effects from the jab so may as well.

I've been reluctant to get one*, but was convinced this year to get the free one from work.

Unfortunately I was travelling on the day they came in to do it, so I'm currently benefiting from the local herd immunity...

*not through any distrust of vaccines generally, but because it's generally not very effective and I can't remember ever having proper flu.

I had one this year for the first time and haven't had flu this winter. Mind you, I haven't had flu in the past either so perhaps I'm not a good test!

When I got mine in October/November last year, it was notionally to help make sure my rather fragile Mum wouldn't be exposed if I visited over the winter and happened to be infectious.

She gets her own vaccination too, of course, being in a vulnerable group, but it didn't take me long to persuade myself that I would rather not catch the flu purely for my own selfish sake... judging by peoples' descriptions of what it's been like this year, if I'd caught it I would probably have paid £10 per hour not to suffer it along with them (if that had been an option).

If it turns out I never would have caught the flu anyway (I work from home a lot - but I do go into That London nearly every week, by train and tube, so chances are high I've been exposed) it was still only a tenner. If I would have caught it if I had been exposed because this year's vaccination doesn't work against the common strains, I'd be slightly miffed about the waste of a tenner... but that's the worst case scenario.

I'm not really sure what the 'con' is against the 'pro' of likely being immune to a really unpleasant bout of sickness...

As has been said, it's generally not very effective unless as there's so many strains and it's usually not one you've had a jab for that does the rounds. If you're in vulnerable group where death resulting from flu is a real risk then it's a no brainer, for others then meh probably makes sense but I've only had a jab once (2 years ago) and haven't had the flu in years so probably won't bother again unless there's specific warnings of a highly virulent strain on the way which a jab would protect against.

The way I have always looked at it is that, for the £10 it costs, it is worth it to reduce the risks of catching one of the strains floating about.

I remember my last bout of proper flu. My temperature was so high I was hallucinating and I spent two day alternating between freezing under a duvet (and sweating buckets) and baking hot with no duvet (and sweating buckets). I'd like to reduce the risk of that happening again.

'Flu twice in a season isn't impossible but you'd be pretty bloody unlucky (or you work in close contact in an environment where lots of folk have had it).  I'm guessing you had a heavy cold on at least one of those occasions.

There are 3 main strains of flu circulating in the UK this year (2 As, 1B - there's not going to be a video though).  This year's vaccine is believed to be decently protective (in the non-elderly) against 2 of these 3 but there are concerns about the third, which was the one that "ravaged" Australia this year but hasn't been all that prevalent here.

I'd still have it, even if my work didn't encourage me and offer it for free.

Sorry to be rude. But you don’t have flu. You have a cold. It might be a good one, but it’s not flu.

My my doctor once described the difference. You’re in bed, ill. A fifty pound note flutters in the wind and sticks on the outside of your window. If you can get up and retrieve it then you have a cold. If you can’t get up then you may have flu.

People think it sounds unmanly to be laid out with a cold, but a good one can put you to bed for a week.

There is always someone who comes out and says you have a cold not flu! Well I’ve had a fair few colds in my 40 years to know this is not just a cold, unless colds are so bad now that the symptoms are no different from that of flu? Last time I had a cold my temperature wasn’t 38 degrees, last time I had a cold I was able to get warm easily, as opposed to shivering, despite being wrapped up in numerous blankets, dressing gowns and the duvet. And from not being able to get warm to feeling hot to touch and then sweaty and clammy. Last time I had a cold I didn’t feel like I’d been hit by a bus with my muscles aching like never before and I was able to move. Last time I had a cold my head and chest didn’t feel like they were going to explode. Oh and last time I had a cold I was able to cycle to work and carry out a full set of days, afters and nights. I suppose this could just be a cold though?

The symptoms are very similar, you’re can’t get warm at 38c as you’re warm enough already and wrapping yourself in a duvet at when you have a pyrexia is a daft thing to do.

Well I’ve had a fair few colds in my 40 years to know this is not just a cold, unless colds are so bad now that the symptoms are no different from that of flu?

There are "over 200" strains of cold virus ... some are far worse to some people than others.

However if you are up and typing it's probably more likely you have a severe cold than a very mild flu.

That said I'm 50 and I've never had a bad cold or flu...

you have a pyrexia

Is this some kind of phobia to do with pyrex dishes???????  🤔

True. And I’m guessing you are not a doctor? Feel free to diagnose me though. I’m sticking with flu, given I’m experiencing it.

No I’m not a Dr but just like a Dr I can diagnose other people’s symptoms. Of course to be 100% certain I need more info but people with the flu struggle to do much beyond lying in bed.

And the worst of it has now passed, hence the typing. I wonder, if you have never had a cold or flu, how can you comment on the differences between the two?

Had the flu jab as my work means that I spend a good proportion of my working week in Hospitals and GP surgeries. Co-incidentally, I've had more colds this winter than I can remember for a long time.

But not flu.

I was stuck in bed shaking for 3 days with barley able to walk to the loo, 4 of the family had temperatures 39-40it was definitely flu and not a bit of a cold.  Plus I've never coughed up neat blood from a cold.

There is always someone who comes out and says you have a cold not flu.

Well it's true. Flu is a nasty disease. You think you're going to die!  And you could do. The Flu epidemic 100 years ago killed more people in this country than died in the great war.

Don't despair though; Manflu has been recognised as a proper ailment in it's own right. Men feel the effects of a cold  more than women.

A temperature of 38C?  What's normal- 36.9? so a difference of just 3%...

Ya puff!

thorpie, a doc isn't going to be able to diagnose you any better than anyone else on the info above - flu's quite hard to distinguish from other viral infections without a proper test (some folk suggest that sneeze is rare in flu but it's not a great "rule" at all).

Even when a doc decides to send a sample for testing, about half come back negative anyway; you can have severe non-flu just as you can have non-severe flu.

I'd stick by my suggestion that you'd be unlucky to get 2 flu's in a season though.  What you can get is secondary bacterial infection after flu though so regardless of what we all think it is, do visit your doc if you're persistently unwell or deteriorating

IANAD

bigblackshed
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Sorry to be rude. But you don’t have flu. You have a cold. It might be a good one, but it’s not flu.

Based on the limited description, it could be the flu.  No way you can tell for sure from behind your keyboard that it isn't.  He might have been laid up for 5 days, and this is the first time he has managed to feel well enough to get up etc etc.  Reel that neck in a bit :-).

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Ha ha angeldust, pretty much bob on. Maybe it’s a mild flu and not a strong cold, as suggested?

Flu jab will only protect against certain strains, and apparently not the ones you are likely to encounter this year.

Not sure where you heard that, the flu jab is updated every year to keep up with the latest viral strains. Not perfect, of course, but certainly the most effective available.

And the worst of it has now passed, hence the typing. I wonder, if you have never had a cold or flu, how can you comment on the differences between the two?

I'm being ironic .. no-one gets to 50 in normal society and has NEVER been exposed to either.

According to the descriptions I've never had a bad flu or bad cold...

From memory I've not taken time off work for either... I had 1/2d off last year to attend fracture clinic and other than that don't remember a day off work in a decade.  (Probably much longer)

Hence I find the idea that everyone suffers the same degree of symptoms to the same virus, let alone the many different strains a bit unlikely..

flu is rare enough, and the jab ineffective enough, that no collection of anecdotes is really going to be much use in coming to any rational decision. I had the jab this year partly due to vulnerable relatives (one of who possibly wasn't able to have it themselves, I asked but never got a straight answer). Also I had flu a couple of years ago and could really understand for the first time how it kills people. The jab caused me no side effects and I've stayed healthy when quite a few around here (but not close to me) have been ill.

Incidentally contra Drac I find that going to bed and overheating under the duvet works really well for me to get rid of fevers. Don't know if this is scientifically sound, there's stuff written supporting it but I know there's a lot of voodoo medical crap on the internet and I'm not qualified to judge. Obviously there's a limit above which it gets dangerous but 38 isn't it.

Not sure where you heard that, the flu jab is updated every year to keep up with the latest viral strains. Not perfect, of course, but certainly the most effective available.

I work in the pharmaceutical industry so it's related to my job.  It's been very widely reported this year.  Google 'Flu jab Australian flu'.  Jab gets updated, but they don't always guess the right strains to protect against.  Because, you know, we haven't invented time travel yet.

For example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/flu-jab-nhs-warning-winter-ineffective-a8142376.html

Any other questions Shermer :-)?

From memory I’ve not taken time off work for either… I had 1/2d off last year to attend fracture clinic and other than that don’t remember a day off work in a decade.  (Probably much longer)

You've certainly not had the flu then.  You wouldn't get out of bed, let alone get to work.  Good on you, its horrible :-(.

I'm vaccinated every year (diabetic) but this year I still got the proper full on flu bastard. I reckon it's worth getting done but 9/10ths of what people call the flu, isn't the flu so it's really hard to know what it's really doing.

You’ve certainly not had the flu then.  You wouldn’t get out of bed, let alone get to work.  Good on you, its horrible :-(.

It might be for you ... I can't see how I haven't had the virus.  I've been in houses with everyone in bed.. colleagues from work laid up... but I've had a bit of a temp and headache and sore muscles/joints but never been knocked out.

I have had typhoid though..(not in the UK though). confirmed by testing and it knocked me out for 3 days.. after which I had to drive to a doctors as my ex also had it (and I was back at work the following week)... she was on a drip confined to a bed for 2 weeks, I understand that is more normal.. but then I have a very aggressive immune system.  (which might be nice for this but has it's own drawbacks)

It might be for you … I can’t see how I haven’t had the virus.  I’ve been in houses with everyone in bed.. colleagues from work laid up… but I’ve had a bit of a temp and headache and sore muscles/joints but never been knocked out.

Fine, you have defied medical science.  Whatever :-).

Are you Bruce Willis from the movie Unbreakable?

NHS description of difference between cold and Flu:

Cold:Makes you feel unwell, but you're OK to carry on as normal (for example, go to work)

Flu:Makes you feel exhausted and too unwell to carry on as normal

Still think you've had the Flu?

The thing is, like with any vaccination it's nigh impossible to tell if you received any benefit other than observing the fact that you haven't suffered whatever the vaccination was to immunise against.

As above, the flu vaccine is a yearly recipe.  The guys that come up with it can't time travel, but they do have access to stats and trend forecasting so include what they think will be useful for each seasons' batches.  This is reasonably well published.

I'm not a doctor but I do work in a Hospital and I have access to pretty much anywhere patients might be, and I'm frequently in the same spaces so I take advantage of the offered vaccine and watch my personal hygiene.  It's the responsible thing to do for those in my Hospital's care and the smart thing to do for my own health.

I'm not sure I see a downside to the vaccine TBH.

 but then I have a very aggressive immune system.  (which might be nice for this but has it’s own drawbacks)

Did you eat dog shit as a kid? That gets your immune system up to snuff.

I wonder, if you have never had a cold or flu, how can you comment on the differences between the two?

Yes of course I’ve had both, I slept for pretty much a week solid with the flu onlhy being woken by the wife to drink fluids or to make the epic journey to the toilet, the second week I can recall lying in bed most of the day and the 3rd I made it downstairs where I lay on the settee.

How can I comment to the diffences? Errrr! Same way I can comment on the difference between and MI and Angina but thankfully I’ve never had suffered either of those.

Anyway, yes the flu jab is worth having to massively increase the chances of not getting the flu and to help prevent others from getting ti.

It might be for you … I can’t see how I haven’t had the virus.  I’ve been in houses with everyone in bed.. colleagues from work laid up… but I’ve had a bit of a temp and headache and sore muscles/joints but never been knocked out.

Swoons 🙂

How can I comment to the diffences? Errrr! Same way I can comment on the difference between and MI and Angina but thankfully I’ve never had suffered either of those.

Not sure what the point was supposed to be, but lots of people that have never had the Flu, describe  a bad cold as the Flu.  Once you've had the Flu you are much less likely to confuse them.

Not sure what the point was supposed to be

I was asked how I would know the difference from Flu and a Cold if I’d not had both.

Fine, you have defied medical science.  Whatever :-).

Are you Bruce Willis from the movie Unbreakable?

NHS description of difference between cold and Flu:

Cold:Makes you feel unwell, but you’re OK to carry on as normal (for example, go to work)

Flu:Makes you feel exhausted and too unwell to carry on as normal

Still think you’ve had the Flu?

I don't see how I didn't have the Flu.  I've had something at the same time the people I'm sharing air with have had flu... the NHS description has nothing to do with reality.

In the same way many people might have colds and have the same strain but some are fine to carry on as normal and others are not.

Having a virus has nothing to do with how you feel, many can be asymptomatic ... and everything to do with what virus you have.  If it's a Flu virus it's Flu ...

Probably just as relevant is the virus you are carrying is the one you spread... regardless of how severe your symptoms are.

Are you Bruce Willis from the movie Unbreakable?

Given a breadcrumb will make me extremely ill, I think not. Not to mention a load of other side effects from my immune system that are rather unpleasant.

It's pretty obvious that people can exhibit a range of responses to any given viral infection, "flu" can only be strictly diagnosed by some tests (that most people will need be given), short of this a doctors' diagnosis can only be "looks like flu".

Chances of people never having had flu in their lives is pretty slim and I don't believe there is such a clear dividing line between a mild case of flu and the possible symptoms of a bad cold. I've had the same illness as my wife at/around the same time (chances of it being two different causes is negligible) with somewhat different severities. Seems a bit silly to argue that it couldn't have been flu if I got up in X days for any particular value of X.

Yes.

I've had Flu twice, it's really not nice - the last bout lead to a night in A&E with Pneumonia, took weeks to get over it.

In fairness, if I nag my wife she'll do it for me at home so I can hardly spend too longing deciding if it's 'worth' it.

No, it's not perfect, you might still get Flu, but it's much less likely and IF you do, it's much more likely to be milder and pass quicker.

H3N2 was the strain most were worried about this winter, AKA 'Aussie Flu' but the 2017/18 Winter Flu Jab was designed to combat it - they're very good at pre-empting which will be needed.

Some people are tough/stupid enough to carry with Flu, for a while anyway, but mostly you end up a shaking mess on the sofa begging for the warm embrace of death to stop the suffering (that's a joke BTW). Simple paracetamol does a good job of masking some of the symptoms - in my case well enough to decide to try a 'quick' lap of Cwmcarn on my bike, it felt like a cold in the car park, about 3k in it swept over me and I wanted to curl up and die - that's another way to help know the difference between a Cold and Flu - colds tend to build up over a couple of days, flu can wash over you suddenly.

Nothing says you can't have a Cold at the same time as the Flu, in fact you could have a cold that weakens you enough to allow Flu to take hold, one becomes the other.

… the NHS description has nothing to do with reality.

You're right.  You are much more likely to know best 🙂

I'm certainly not saying that people won't have varying responses to the same virus.  Your description of your response to 'the flu' seems to verging on superhuman though, to the extent that I have some doubt it was the flu.  Especially when it is so common to confuse colds and Flu.  I've had the flu twice in 40 years (I think).  Perhaps you have been lucky enough to avoid it completely.

Wow. Onto a second page! Been sleeping in a sweaty mess the last couple of hours so just caught up. I think the general consensus to my question is yes, have the flu jab. I will look into it once I’m back into the swing of things.

no point this year matey - you've had 'em all already !  😉

Book early for next season though

Your description of your response to ‘the flu’ seems to verging on superhuman though, to the extent that I have some doubt it was the flu.

I think theCaptain sums that up ....

It’s pretty obvious that people can exhibit a range of responses to any given viral infection, “flu” can only be strictly diagnosed by some tests (that most people will need be given), short of this a doctors’ diagnosis can only be “looks like flu”.

Chances of people never having had flu in their lives is pretty slim and I don’t believe there is such a clear dividing line between a mild case of flu and the possible symptoms of a bad cold. I’ve had the same illness as my wife at/around the same time (chances of it being two different causes is negligible) with somewhat different severities. Seems a bit silly to argue that it couldn’t have been flu if I got up in X days for any particular value of X.

You are much more likely to know best

Again, unless you get tested for the virus then it's as the Captain say's... something like Flu.

Hence why the NHS description is just irrelevant.

 I’ve had the flu twice in 40 years (I think).  Perhaps you have been lucky enough to avoid it completely.

So that's my point ... you have probably had the flu virus way more often, it's just that your bodies immune system knocked it out before you got the full symptoms....

I had flu a month ago. I couldn't ride at all for over 2 weeks and I'm still not able to ride for more than 1.5 hours (normally 6 is fine).

Vaccination is well worth it I think (although it won't cover you for all strains).

I has the flu jab this year... and still had flu. Or if it wasn't flu it was the worse cold I've ever had. Wiped me out for 3 1/2 weeks and in still not right.

I've lost nearly a month of Fred Whitton training to this ****er and I'm still coughing like a beast!

So that’s my point … you have probably had the flu virus way more often, it’s just that your bodies immune system knocked it out before you got the full symptoms….

Your bodies immune system 'knocking it out' before you get the symptoms is the definition of NOT getting the flu.  Very STW of you to be pedantic about what the term 'having the flu' means though.  Well done :-).

It’s not a matter of not getting symptoms, but their severity.

I’ve occasionally (I can remember two times in 30 years) had a severe fever and aches/headache come on very quickly (within an hour or two) and leave me unable to do more than crawl into bed with paracetamol. But then I was up and about the next day, albeit weak and tired for several more. It may not be “proper” enough flu for some of you but it’s nothing like any reasonable description of a cold - no runny nose, sneezes etc that I also get a couple of times a year.

Why do you think it was the flu?

Flu:Makes you feel exhausted and too unwell to carry on as normal

A heavy cold will make you feel like this on day one, but you quickly start to feel better. Great advice, NHS!

You haven’t got flu if your typing on a web forum

Flu is a serious illnesss that will out you off work for a couple of weeks at lest and in bed unable to do anything for many days to weeks.

Its another one of those " if you think you have had flu you haven't.  when you have flu you will know"

40 years in healthcare.  I have never had flu, I have never seen anyone with flu ( although my dad did get it this year and was hospitalised despite the flu jab)

Get the jab if you are a high risk group - then the disadvantages are outweighed by the benefits but remember the jab is not anything like 100% effective.  I am not in a high risk group, I do not look after high risk groups.  I will not have the jab

Your bodies immune system ‘knocking it out’ before you get the symptoms is the definition of NOT getting the flu.  Very STW of you to be pedantic about what the term ‘having the flu’ means though.  Well done :-).

That's not quite what I said ... reread... I said FULL symptoms...

Like theCaptain say's ... I've had something ...

Why do you think it was the flu?

Because that is what the rest of the people I was sharing air with had (or perhaps even thought they had or were told they had)

Development of symptoms is not just a question of having the virus as much as how far the virus takes hold and how fast and agressively your immune system responds.  That is the whole point of the vaccinations that your immune system is trained to identify and respond quickly to that specific strain.

You might have a room of 20 people all exposed .. and some will show virtually no symptoms, others will show cold like symptoms and others will show flu like symptoms... however almost everyone, including those nearly asymptomatic are carrying and spreading the virus.

Equally someone can get one strain of flu and be relatively unaffected because their immune system identifies it quickly and quickly responds whereas another strain might knock them out for 2 weeks (or even kill them).

There is nothing special about the flu virus in this regard other than it's ability to mutate into new strains.

Flu is a serious illnesss that will out you off work for a couple of weeks at lest and in bed unable to do anything for many days to weeks.

Its another one of those ” if you think you have had flu you haven’t.  when you have flu you will know”

Not for a certain strain of STWer.  These guys just get a sore throat and slight sniffle for 24hrs.  But it definitely was the flu.  Not just a cold, oh, no,

Well, I think I’ve had flu, because I know! (And everything I’ve read about symptoms etc says flu not cold). Anyway, why are people so keen to downgrade flu to a cold? What’s it to them? Jeez.

Because the symptoms match and other people around me had the same symptoms for a longer time. What other illnesses are there that cause flu symptoms for a day? I’m not exaggerating about their severity, it just passed quickly. NHS web pages say usually 2-7 days so there's plenty of variation. I've always tended to get over illnesses quickly, colds rarely bother me much (but feel very different).

Had the same symptoms for more like a week a couple of years ago, yes that was worse but it was the same symptoms just a bit more severe.

Well, I think I’ve had flu, because I know! (And everything I’ve read about symptoms etc says flu not cold). Anyway, why are people so keen to downgrade flu to a cold? What’s it to them? Jeez.

From your description, yes, it might be the flu.  The STW heros saying they just continue as normal (with minor cold like symptoms) with the Flu are the delusional ones :-).

Anyway, why are people so keen to downgrade flu to a cold?

Because flu is a serious thing that can kill you.  As has been said above, if you have had flu you know it.  You can not move out of bed for multiple days, you loose weight, you think you are literally going to die. It takes weeks to get over it.

What other illnesses are there that cause flu symptoms for a day?

they call it influenza-LIKE illness for a reason

https://flic.kr/p/23Gx7WN

You can not move out of bed for multiple days, you loose weight, you think you are literally going to die. It takes weeks to get over it

That's really not the case in all people.  Particularly now that sensitive testing is available, some folk with relatively low-grade illness turn out to have flu.  In many circumstances they'd previously probably have been assumed not to have flu when diagnosis was clinical.

On average influenza infected 18% of unvaccinated people each winter. Up to three-quarters of infections were asymptomatic and about a quarter of infections had PCR-confirmed disease. 17% of people with PCR-confirmed disease had medically attended illness. These data did not vary significantly when comparing pandemic with seasonal influenza. People infected with the 2009 pandemic strain had markedly less severe symptoms than those infected with seasonal H3N2

( http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600%2814%2970034-7/fulltext )

Hey don't go spoiling their macho posturing with actual evidence and data. Multiple web sites talk of the major symptoms usually lasting about 2-7 days so it's not like there is any hard rule out there.

Does '..less severe symptoms' = slight sniffle and carrying on as normal?  Or that they are stuck in bed for 2 days rather than 6?

What other illnesses are there that cause flu symptoms for a day?

Hmm! What other illnesses have viral symptoms? Well I’m sure you can work it out,

angeldust
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Does ‘..less severe symptoms’ = slight sniffle and carrying on as normal?  Or that they are stuck in bed for 2 days rather than 6?

Not sure; what do we think "asymptomatic" means ?

(it's one of the stronger arguments for vaccination - that apparently healthy individuals can be shedding virus and circulating in a community that includes much more susceptible people)

Hey don’t go spoiling their macho posturing with actual evidence and data. Multiple web sites talk of the major symptoms usually lasting about 2-7 days so it’s not like there is any hard rule out there.

Surely the 'macho posturing' is coming from those who think they survive having the flu with little more than a sniffle and a lemsip, while carrying on as normal?  Repeating what has been said above multiple times, if you have the flu you'll be in bed for at least a couple of days (and possibly much worse).

thecaptain

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It’s not a matter of not getting symptoms, but their severity.

I’ve occasionally (I can remember two times in 30 years) had a severe fever and aches/headache come on very quickly (within an hour or two) and leave me unable to do more than crawl into bed with paracetamol. But then I was up and about the next day, albeit weak and tired for several more. It may not be “proper” enough flu for some of you but it’s nothing like any reasonable description of a cold – no runny nose, sneezes etc that I also get a couple of times a year.

Much more likely to be a bad cold than the flu.

You all seem to be missing the point that there are many different strains of Influenza, some of which are serious, some are not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

Surely the ‘macho posturing’ is coming from those who think they survive having the flu with little more than a sniffle and a lemsip, while carrying on as normal?

So the 75% of people or do you not count The Lancet as as good a source as the NHS website?

On average influenza infected 18% of unvaccinated people each winter. Up to three-quarters of infections were asymptomatic

Angeldust, a bad cold that causes a significant fever but clears up pretty much overnight without affecting my nose and throat at any point is a wondrous thing indeed. might as well have said it was chicken pox or scarlet fever. I know a bad cold can cause symptoms beyond a runny nose but it's called rhinovirus for a reason.

A sniffle, yes I'd assume a cold, despite the evidence that a mild case of flu may well manifest in that way also. But since flu is a reasonably common winter disease, with major symptoms of aches, fever and fatigue, then of course it's reasonable to assume that is what caused the aches, fever and fatigue on the rare (decadal) occasions when I get them. Why would it not be?