Flat pedals - am I doing it wrong?

I found the transition to Flats a bit on the tricky side, but have come around to them. I regularly change between clips and flats, depending on what I think the ride will entail.

Clips for the longer rides that need less technical riding, and have a focus on power and speed.
Flats for the rides that may be a bit more sketchy, where I may be on and off the pedals more (either by design or getting it a bit wrong!).

reeksy,
I never understood the flats for coaching thing and a lot of the coaches do it. Why don't they just get on with coaching you with what you have? Is it that coaches have a set script to coach on flats that doesn't adapt to clips? Are they coaching you on using a pedal?

Most dh riders are clipped. Most xc riders are clipped and ride pretty crazy things. If we substitute flats are better for flats are different, then why not go with clips?

Working as a m/c courier in London, the best riders and deliverists were on mega mile bikes that they just rode *a lot* and were completely used to them. Probably the same with pedals. Just ride one set *a lot* and go well.

Is there anything it's possible ride on flats that you can't on clips (or vice versa) without inserting the word "properly" or whatever "properly" is?

If you want to ride from A to B and can do it and have fun on whatever pedal, go with it. The topic is a hardy perennial and doesn't really have an actual answer IMHO.

humblemoan over.

More practice. That’s all that’s needed if you want to continue with flats.

The bouncing off the pedals may be that you’re used to being clipped in and you’re slightly unweighting the pedals like you used to. After practice this will come under your unconscious control and it’ll happen less and you’ll notice it less.

It’s only a month or so. If you’ve been exclusively using clipless ‘forever’ then it’ll take a while to accommodate.

Clipless are surely more efficient and forgiving of technique than flats?

I moved back to flats many years ago. Mainly for flexibility of footwear choice. I keep a pair of clipless pedals and shoes around but am unlikely to return to them.

Surely they should coach you on your regular set up, forcing you to flats just for coaching sounds odd - you'll not be used to them and it'll impact on your day.

so you can teach techniques better

The techniques for doing stuff on flats or clips is different, not better (or worse) I don't regularly  swap but I do find that for the first ten minutes of flats after clips my feet are constantly 'in the wrong place' and I have to remind myself to not worry about it. The obvious technique you have to consciously do on flats is drop your heels and try to drive your weight through your legs (these are good things to do anyway) but honestly; in a rock garden on a hard tail, your feet are going to bounce around.

I tried flats again recently after decades of clips as I wanted to learn better technique than relying on pulling up on the clips all the time. It’s been both frustrating and rewarding! My general descending has improved greatly but my bunny hopping is awful and I’m struggling to keep the power down on tech climbs. Bunny hops i am working on and I can see progress, tech climbs are proving more difficult to master. I’m maybe reliant too much on sheer power and should try to be more fluid and relaxed on the pedal stroke. Either way I’m having a great time learning something in my 40’s and I’m enjoying flats so much I’m not sure I’ll go back to clips.

I only ride hardtails if that’s relevant.

Massively relevant. If I want to ride rocky/rooty stuff at a decent pace, I have to be clipped in on my HT. Obviously there are a lot of flat pedal techniques which are different to clips, but on a HT those seem to be directly in conflict with the need to ride light and agile on that kind of terrain. Smoother stuff, jumping and so on seems less of a conflict.

I've been considering going the opposite way and moving to clips... why, don't really know 😀 just for the same but opposite reasons many are going from clips>flats on here 🙂

Different flat pedals work differently, I used to swear by hope pedals, till I tried a set of Burgtecs.
Sadly everyone's feet are shaped/sized differently and you have find what works for you.

Also FiveTens......

why, don’t really know

Don't over-think it, sometimes it's just fun to try something different.

If you’re on flats you have to work harder to do certain things - like pull up the rear wheel / bunny hop etc. So if you’re getting coaches on flats you have to learn more core skills - rather than relying on just pulling up using your clip in pedals. So it teaches better core skills in my opinion.

I tend to switch about between flats and clips depending on what I’m riding / the mood I’m in. Most of the time I’m on flats both on the hardtail and the fs - but if I’ve got a big day at somewhere like BPW I tend to ride clips for the added security on the pedals through fast rocky stuff - my ankles seem to suffer on flats at places like that for some reason.

I do find when I’ve been riding clips and go back to flats I do sometimes find my feet coming off the pedals on tech climbs for some reason - guess I get used to that extra pulling up ability.

Stick at it and you’ll get there on flats - but up to you which you prefer and want to ride most of the time.

I find on the limit on rocky stuff riding the hardtail that I do occasionally lose a foot off a pedal riding flats - there’s only so much you can do to keep your feet on a pedal with no rear suspension.

Regarding the coaching, I should have said I coach exclusively kids up to about 12 years old as part of a club. Have yet to see any riding clipless.

I do think it’s better riding flats for demonstration purposes and also for all the slow getting on and off the bike and walking around that coaching kids involves.

I massively prefer clips, definitely on a Road/gravel bike, in fact the only time I prefer flats is for bikepacking.
In the immortal words of Dalton, from the movie Roadhouse, "Opinions Vary"

I'd have thought that a coach should be able to coach both pedal types, not just what they use themselves.

Descending I’m fine with, dropping heels and getting the centre of my foot firm on the pedal is working.

Sounds like you've been sold a simplified 'technique' to use in all situations and coaxed into to using the coaches preferred pedal setup...

Roxy's videos are quite good IMO:

Nobody is a total expert of course, but just think more about how foot placement, use if your ankles and shifting weight will affect the dynamics of the bike for a given situation...

To be fair the coaching coach was using flats himself that weekend but doesn’t always when he’s riding for himself

Love how most folk on this thread are just saying which they prefer rather than addressing the OP. Good ol’ sibgletrack.

Anyway, I had a similar experience when I did my TCL a million years ago. The most important aspect of learning the new technique is that it put me in the mindset of a learner - it’s a really important part of the process if you want to do any coaching/teaching.

For me, thinking about getting my weight pushing down through the BB at all times was the lightbulb moment for flats. I found that thought process far more instructive than ‘drop your heels’.

Best of luck OP. Enjoy the process!

flats are bigger and wider on techier tracks they bash rocks/surroundings more, well thats my excuse.

1 – feet bouncing off whilst climbing rocks
2 – putting the power down securely on sprints out of tight corners
3 – Way more pedal strikes… I think i’m pedalling through rocks and roots more. Maybe I pulled pedals back up with clipless and can’t do that now?

I only ride flats

1. I don’t have that problem. I think it will get better with practice

2. I think that’s why downhills pros clip in

3. Yep the end of the pedal is in a worse place for strikes. Planing a route can help

PS it’s not like and I’m any good on a bike so take the above with a pinch of salt

Most dh riders are clipped. Most xc riders are clipped and ride pretty crazy things.

Because at Elite level you either do everything for a podium or leave on a stretcher.
F1 and WRX drivers also do pretty crazy things but those aren't taught to people learning to drive.

Watch either and you'll see crashes made much worse by being clipped in ... and these are elite level riders who ride clipped in every day yet you'll still see them flailing and trying to unclip when on flats they could just throw away the bike.

Reeksy

am I doing it wrong?

Obviously ... hence the reason for the flats but it's all fixable and you'll be learning new skills as a bonus.
As a further bonus it will probably improve your overall skills..
you're trying to undo a set of habits .. its going to take time, patience and a bit of feeling like you're going backwards.

Regarding the coaching, I should have said I coach exclusively kids up to about 12 years old as part of a club. Have yet to see any riding clipless.

Age isn't really relevant ... the fact non of them are riding clipless is.
How are you teaching them to bail if you're clipped in?

How can you teach them proper technique if you aren't using it?

"I'm doing it this way but you do it differently because you're on flats" isn't going to really work. Even if you do nothing "risky" on the coaching then they are going to go and and do stuff with mates... not being able to throw a bike away when it goes completely wrong won't help them.

I only ride hardtails if that’s relevant.

Massively relevant. If I want to ride rocky/rooty stuff at a decent pace, I have to be clipped in on my HT.

Totally with this but is the OP teaching them to "race" or ride safely?
I "race" mates on descents and if its reasonably gnarly clips make a big difference to being able to keep pedalling when they are on FS and I'm on the HT, whenever I've bothered my fastest timed runs alone on some trails are on the HT clipped in.

I do find when I’ve been riding clips and go back to flats I do sometimes find my feet coming off the pedals on tech climbs for some reason – guess I get used to that extra pulling up ability.

There is this ... however the kids/people being coached on flats need to learn how to do tech climbs before they do it in a race. I encountered this just the other day for example going up a longer rooty section where I'd be stood pedalling on the FS or in clips on the HT and just had to suck it up and sit down and pedal up slowly on the HT/flats... I still got up, it just took longer and wasn't the comfiest.

@reeksy
Just stick at what you're doing...

1 – feet bouncing off whilst climbing rocks

Just live with it and adapt

2 – putting the power down securely on sprints out of tight corners

Pump out of tight corners don't pedal.. that's going to take a different approach line, speed and exit.
It's a whole skill... you'll probably feel your going backwards for a while but you could end up faster.. and if not you learned a new alternate skill. Quite honestly from a personal perspective I'd prefer a nice pump over brake and pedal even if it was slower.

3 – Way more pedal strikes… I think i’m pedalling through rocks and roots more. Maybe I pulled pedals back up with clipless and can’t do that now?

I think perhaps that's because in your head you feel compromised so you're trying to pedal more?

for example going up a longer rooty section where I’d be stood pedalling on the FS or in clips on the HT and just had to suck it up and sit down and pedal up slowly on the HT/flats…

Most curious about this as a flat pedal rider (also as someone who doesn't get out to technical trails that often, but practices basic trials stuff). How do flat pedals prevent you standing-pedaling on an uphill technical section? Or put another way, what was it about the uphill technical section that meant you had to sit to pedal using flats but could have stood to pedal clipped in?

+1 for hardtail being very relevant

And flats are much bigger, so you're bound to be getting more pedal strikes, no?

Anyway, I don't believe anyone's hit on the obvious solution here... you need a new (full sus) bike 😀

Took me three months to adapt... and those were summer regular riding months at that. Definitely still felt completely wrong, dangerous even, at only one month in.

[ EDIT: all three months hardtail only ]

am I doing it wrong?

Obviously … hence the reason for the flats but it’s all fixable and you’ll be learning new skills as a bonus.
As a further bonus it will probably improve your overall skills..
you’re trying to undo a set of habits .. its going to take time, patience and a bit of feeling like you’re going backwards.

And this is where the mystery continues. Why undo habits if they are actually useful ones?

"proper technique". Is'nt riding clipped a proper technique? Can you do a proper manual? A proper bunny hop? A proper drop off? Proper trackstand?

FWIW, I hate these discussions and shouldn't really be bothered but after doing three days with well known coaches and being cajoled onto flats, I spent 6 months getting back to the fun I had clipped for very little other reason than, well, flats.

as a 'flat pedal' rider if i go anywhere rocky i prefer to take my clip pedals. its just one less thing to think about. less bouncing, pedal strikes, more control etc

if your feet are coming off uphill you are still 'pulling up' like you can on a clip pedal. for me there is a noticeable difference between riding flats and clips on my singlespeed in terms of power delivery and efficiancy uphill so that must translate to a geared setup.

also for me clips are complete and utter suicide on our local brand of wet roots so clips are a (mainly) summer only affair for me (or bike park).

For what it's worth, I ride clips and flats. And I only ride clips on my hardtails.

The biggest reason for me is the feet bouncing around thing - you can be taught technique all day long, but if you hammer down a fast, bumpy, rocky decent on a hardtail your feet are going to slip on the pedal eventually. I had too many downs where my foot was bounced into some weird place on the pedal that I decided to run clips and it's made a world of difference for my riding.

I swapped to flats 2 years ago due to my meniscus- less knee not enjoying twisting out of clips and getting torqued by the bike when ragging it.  I swapped to flats just after I swapped from HT to FS.

Both my kids (13 and 15) are on HTs and on Flats, they have naturally learnt Flat pedal trail riding technique (i.e. not dirt jumping) without any coaching or even watching a youtube video, as that would eat into time watching Mr Beast and playing Microsoft Flight Sim/Rocket League.

Like Kelvin says it did take months to get used to them/learn different* ways of doing things like bunny hops. Also jumps and drops were terrifying initially... "argggghhhhh the bike is dropping away from me!!!!"

*Different but maybe not better or more efficient. But the skills you learn on Flats transfer over to clips but it doesn't go the other way.  Which is why it's suggested that instructors should be on flats amongst other reasons like instructee buy in "he/she is doing it on flats, so can I".

1 – feet bouncing off whilst climbing rocks

I got this initially but i found as my technique got better I could climb techy stuff better as I wasn't worried about having to clip out should I stall. (My knee really didn't like clipping out quickly, made matters worse)  You learn to thruch the bike forward by preloading and unweighting, like a bunny hop, sorta.

2 – putting the power down securely on sprints out of tight corners

Didn't really to find this too much of an issue unless I was foot out, flat out.

3 – Way more pedal strikes… I think i’m pedalling through rocks and roots more. Maybe I pulled pedals back up with clipless and can’t do that now?

Few more initially but again not really an issue now.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.
Riding the rockiest stuff around this weekend and will take the flats (partly for shoe convenience when travelling) so will see how I go.

as a ‘flat pedal’ rider if i go anywhere rocky i prefer to take my clip pedals. its just one less thing to think about. less bouncing, pedal strikes, more control etc

I only ride flats and hardtails in and around the Peak District. Don’t have issues with pedal strikes, control or my feet bouncing off. Only time I’ve had pedal strikes was when getting used to lower BB’s. I’m assuming it’s because I’m used to it and have adapted to suit. As with a lot of things in life different people prefer different things.

I’ve tried clipless but I’m a fidgety bugger and like to move my feet about. Just don’t like the feeling of being attached. I’m also a master of crashing so being able to bail easily is a massive plus!

Just keep at it. A month is nothing after years of riding clipped in. When I started riding flats seriously, I followed the Ryan Leech flat pedal drills. Made a big difference to my confidence riding flats.

The difficulties you’re having are just a symptom of being used to being attached to the bike rather than weighting it.
Learning to use body weight and downward pressure to control the bike makes a difference to my riding when I do ride clipped in.

One thing that I remember really spun me out is that dropping heels by itself doesn't really work, it's a summary rather than a goal. If your heels are dipped, but solid and strong, you pretty much might as well be riding flatfoot- the pedal grip is a little better since you're swiped on instead of perched on top but you've lost most of the "moving with the bike" benefit. What's every bit as important as dropped heels, is soft/unlocked ankles. Knees are brilliant at taking shocks, squishing and pumping and all the big stuff but heels are way better at the tiny elastic movements that keep you attached.

I'd sort of copied the pictures but not understood the reasons, as soon as I relaxed a bit I suddenly got a load of thought-free reaction back.

Pump track is a great place to learn to ride with flats. Flexing your ankles and the rest of you is how you pump the bike but you don't have to worry about roots and rocks etc. I spent years working and coaching on portable pump tracks, I would do that on flats but when I was away from that I would ride clipped in. Then I sprained my knee and couldn't ride clipped in but the transition was no bother because I'd unwittingly put in the groundwork. I stuck with flats because I prefer them on steeper, tracks where you might have to dab or restart and it's easier to get back onto a flat pedal. It's good to go back to basics when trying to learn something.

Another technique that I use at times is pinching the cranks. I don't use it that often but makes a difference some times

Life is short, stop messing about with things that don't work for you. Go back to SPD's and just enjoy the ride.

Flats teach you 'real skills' while clips mask your inadequacies
HT teach you 'real skills' while fs mask your inadequacies
SS teach you 'real skills' while gear mask your inadequacies
solid rubber tyres teach you 'real skills' while inflatable tyres mask your inadequacies
walking teach you 'real skills' while riding mask your inadequacies

or perhaps they are all just different ways of doing things. Switching between them will take some adjustment - not un-learning old habits but adjusting to the new requirements, benefits and limitations. Decide if you want to invest the time to do this, it is not always worth it.

And this is where the mystery continues. Why undo habits if they are actually useful ones?

“proper technique”. Is’nt riding clipped a proper technique? Can you do a proper manual? A proper bunny hop? A proper drop off? Proper trackstand?

FWIW, I hate these discussions and shouldn’t really be bothered but after doing three days with well known coaches and being cajoled onto flats, I spent 6 months getting back to the fun I had clipped for very little other reason than, well, flats.

The OP is coaching others ...
You don't teach how to trackstand by saying "grab a tree and hold on tight"... you can argue if its "correct" or "proper" technique all you like but if it only works in special circumstances (like having a convenient tree) you have to question if its "proper" or "special case"

The same goes for a technique relies on clips...
You don't teach how to jump by saying "pull on the clips"... because when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong and because you'll run out of legs or the front has already dipped irretrievably due to not using "correct" (or whatever you wish to call it) technique.

and when it goes wrong you can't just throw away the bike..

the OP can't teach a group how to do something you can't do themselves because they rely on clips...
Just one example of failure to unclip... 1001 fail vids on how pulling on the clips leads to huge OTB's when it goes wrong..

The ankle flexibility issue is probably relevant. I have spurs in both ankle joints from years of football which does limit my movement.

Riding down a long series of steps this afternoon I noticed my feet bouncing off the pedals.

I’ll stick at it and see how I go

Have you dropped your saddle height? I find I need to drop my saddle 1cm when using flats. Some of this will be different pedal any shoe thickness but the difference does help me with getting bounced.

The ankle flexibility issue is probably relevant. I have spurs in both ankle joints from years of football which does limit my movement.

Is that something will get better by use?

Riding down a long series of steps this afternoon I noticed my feet bouncing off the pedals.

Not surprising on a HT... especially if you get in phase with the steps...
I find really steep stuff makes less difference (if you can drop heels), it's the intermediate stuff and where you want to pedal on gnarly stuff I find the biggest difference.

I’ll stick at it and see how I go

If you are meant to be coaching people you really need to be able to ride on the same type of pedals they choose.
As I said earlier look at it as an opportunity to learn something new and improve your skills all-round.

Some stuff like the steps will be harder or more challenging... some stuff like pumping through turns will be easier.
Once you are used to it you can swap back and forwards without much difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SydGB5NN3Zg

Just ride on your flat pedals more. It's a nuanced feel that you can only really develop by doing it.

I rarely get bounced off the pedals these days, just took practice.

steps

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I don't really have an issue switching between the two, as I started mtb'ing on a rigid with flats and learned to let the bike move underneath me.

I've also ridden clipped in for years now, but always with CB Mallets

Currently I have flats on my HT and don't have any slipping off issues, but - grippy pins and five tens do make a big difference. How sticky is your set up OP? Sometimes I almost get caught out trying to get my feet OFF the pedals.

I've got clips on the e-bike for two reasons - generally doing a longer distance and (maybe misguidedly) with such a tank of a bike, I wanted to stay attached to it.

However, I'm thinking of switching to flats on the eeb. Had a few moments, losing traction on a rock climb, or trying to negotiate a tricky section where you need to be nimble, not unclipped quickly enough and next thing I'm lay on my side with a 25kg lump of metal attached to me. This isn't as much of an issue on my own, more with mates on normal bikes and trying to rush a section.

Probably going to keep 2 sets and switch between. Maybe try clips on the HT for a bit