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The wife has informed me that our current supplier e.on has given us the option of fixing our energy bills for the next year - which means a guaranteed price hike of £1200/£100 a month or going on a viable meaning god knows what we could end up paying (to my shame I'm not sure what we're paying ATM). Anyone had similar from their supplier? I thought we were all getting a financial humping regardless with forecasts of nearly £4k bills in January. We have til Weds to decide either way 🙁
How much is the early termination fee if you want to get out of the fixed rate if and go variable?
How much is the early termination fee if you want to get out of the fixed rate if and go variable?
No idea - not even sure if that's an option
Might be worth looking into, if it’s a sensible amount then it may be worth it.
The only thing I can suggest that doesn't seem to get mentioned is if it's more than the anticipated autumn rise, bear in mind your energy use isn't an average over the year. A warning headline that rates might be £6k next year is meaningless if you turn off the central heating in March before the rate rise in April.
See how they give this arbitrary number as £x amount is price the cap. Can they stop doing that and just tell us what the standing charge and kwh price are going to be rising to, for gas and leccy. Then can do a proper calculation.
These numbers they keep plucking out their arse are useful to no-one.
I've fixed my buisness prices for 3yrs with a 100% rise in the price..... Can't see them dropping again in that time.
These numbers they keep plucking out their arse are useful to no-one.
+1 originally went for a supplier who made their rates easy to find rather than hidden away in a dark corner
See how they give this arbitrary number as £x amount is price the cap. Can they stop doing that and just tell us what the standing charge and kwh price are going to be rising to, for gas and leccy. Then can do a proper calculation.
Just take the predicted % uplift in the cap, and then apply that to your own bill, and that will be a good proxy.
I've not yet seen any fixed deal that is remotely near the expected price cap. Its usually 100% higher than the current rate.
Unless you think these price rises are going to continue, they all look like a bad option to take.
Have sma read of this
In summary, if the fix you are offered is close to or less than twice what you are currently paying then it's probably worth it m fixing.
I did last November when offered similar by British Gas. The fixed rates were marginally above the cap rates at the time, but it had already been signalled they were likely to go way higher in the April review. As there was a no-fee exit clause it seemed like a risk wort taking, and as it turns out I made the right call.
However, to really make an assessment you need to find the unit rates and standing charge costs of both the supplier offer and price cap, which in the case of the latter was really difficult.
Chew
Free Member
Just take the predicted % uplift in the cap, and then apply that to your own bill, and that will be a good proxy.
It's not really. if I done that last time. It'd have me paying more than I do now. So, no, it's not a good proxy. It's a pile of nonsense. It's not even a cap anyhow, if you use more energy will pay more that the advertised numbers, there is no upper limit.
It's a complete and utter pile of nonsense. Supply us with the correct data.
the "cap" is from ofgem - its applied so an energy company can blend their own standing charges vs unit rates. I don't find it very useful, but its what the companies have to work with
It’s a complete and utter pile of nonsense. Supply us with the correct data.
They do. When I looked to see if it was worthwhile (via moneysupermarket) it's the big link marked "See unit rates, standing charges and tariff information"
It’s not even a cap anyhow, if you use more energy will pay more that the advertised numbers, there is no upper limit.
Well obviously, the French used to have a rule that set the price of a baguette, it still cost you double if you ate two.
The headline price given in the news is just a statistic for how it affects the average household.
the “cap” is from ofgem – its applied so an energy company can blend their own standing charges vs unit rates. I don’t find it very useful, but its what the companies have to work with
Pretty sure Offgen set both? That's what their website says.
Better option than Octopus, would you like to fix now at £5900ish account message!
thisisnotaspoon
Full MemberThey do. When I looked to see if it was worthwhile (via moneysupermarket) it’s the big link marked “See unit rates, standing charges and tariff information”
link it up? I've never used moneysupermarket.
link it up? I’ve never used moneysupermarket.
just go to the website, type in your details, uncheck all the "please spam me" boxes and it'll give you a list of tariffs, then click "more details".
This may be a stupid question and has been asked before but how or why does the standing charge go up as well? Surely just the price of the units you are using should be going up Not the standing charge as well?
It’s a complete and utter pile of nonsense. Supply us with the correct data.
Its the unit rate which is capped
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
Estimated to rise by 82% in October
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-is-the-energy-price-cap/
Apply 82% uplift to the rates at the current unit cap
multiply that by your current kwh consumption figures + standing charge and thats roughly what your new bill will be.
Its not difficult to work out.
The headlines are for a "typical" household
You cant go on the news and say Dave's bill will increase by £x and Margaret's bill will go up by £y, and Georges bill will go up by .......
Not the standing charge as well?
Presumably they reckon the cost of maintaining the grid, running call centers, etc is/will go up with it? So even if you used nothing, it still costs that amount to keep you connected?
This may be a stupid question and has been asked before but how or why does the standing charge go up as well? Surely just the price of the units you are using should be going up Not the standing charge as well?
Partially because they can increase it within the mechanism.
Partially we're paying for the costs associated with bailing out those suppliers who went bust.
thisisnotaspoon
Full Member
link it up? I’ve never used moneysupermarket.just go to the website, type in your details, uncheck all the “please spam me” boxes and it’ll give you a list of tariffs, then click “more details”.
All that's doing is telling you the tariffs for whatever deals you are being offered. I already know this.
I want to know what ofgems october 2022 caps are going to be for the variable rates, displayed in Gas, standing charge and kwh price, and Electricity, standing charge and kwh price.
If they can come up with blended number forecasts, they must be using this data from somewhere. Either that of they really are just pulling these predictions out of their arses.
See how they give this arbitrary number as £x amount is price the cap. Can they stop doing that and just tell us what the standing charge and kwh price are going to be rising to, for gas and leccy. Then can do a proper calculation.
They will. When it is announced on Thursday.
It’s not even a cap anyhow
It is.
It's a cap on the unit rate and standing charges which a supplied can charge you for.
If you use more, you pay more, which is completely fair.
The wife has informed me that our current supplier e.on has given us the option of fixing our energy bills for the next year – which means a guaranteed price hike of £1200/£100 a month or going on a viable meaning god knows what we could end up paying (to my shame I’m not sure what we’re paying ATM). Anyone had similar from their supplier? I thought we were all getting a financial humping regardless with forecasts of nearly £4k bills in January. We have til Weds to decide either way
Worth noting here that any fixed deals you are being offered today will already have taken into account the predicted increased to the price cap in October and January. Suppliers are not going to actively make a loss with these fixed deals being offered out now. As it stands we expect that the October increase will be 81% and the January will be a further 19% so any deal taking this into account will potentially see you paying the January prices now... certainly check it compared to what you are currently on. Don't look at the monthly figure, look at the unit rates and standing charge, they are all that count here.
Treat any fixed offers with a degree of caution but if you are comfortable with what they estimate you will pay, it's a good way to ensure you have no more worries for a year.
It is.
It’s a cap on the unit rate and standing charges which a supplied can charge you for.If you use more, you pay more, which is completely fair.
which ill accept as accurate when it starts getting presented as that and not the price cap has raised to £XXXX average house arbritrary number means nothing to most people . its smoke and mirrors .
If they are insistant on publishing it in that format there should be brackets - (Based on XXp per unit and xx per day standing charge)
Currently(and it has been for years) its nearly impossible for you to find accurate up to date per unit and per day costs for many suppliers outside of their variable tarriff prior to signing up for them.
which ill accept as accurate when it starts getting presented as that and not the price cap has raised to £XXXX average house arbritrary number means nothing to most people . its smoke and mirrors .
If they are insistant on publishing it in that format there should be brackets – (Based on XXp per unit and xx per day standing charge)
I totally agree. The issue really is everything being published right now is pure speculation so the media are responsible for the poor level of information. Smoke and mirrors get people to click the headlines...
When ofgem publish the cap information, they will break it down into the details (which will once again get ignored by the media).
Currently(and it has been for years) its nearly impossible for you to find accurate up to date per unit and per day costs for many suppliers outside of their variable tarriff prior to signing up for them.
Even the variable tariff can be hard to get because it varies from region to region. The only way to actually find out is by going through a quote or plugging your details into a comparison site. Even then, depending on the supplier, you may get signed up to something that doesn't match expectations. Not helped by the way a number suppliers seem to forget about VAT on the quotes. Dodgy selling is rife in every industry, energy included.
One of the problems in this is that the "Price Cap" was originally a government idea to stop energy firms from overcharging those who wouldn't/couldn't switch to from the variable rate to the best tariff on offer. It's become something entirely different and is debate-ably part of the cause of lots of the suppliers going pop last year.
They're in business to make money. If the overall effect of their offer is to make them a loss then someone has got it badly wrong
Worth noting here that any fixed deals you are being offered today will already have taken into account the predicted increased to the price cap in October and January. Suppliers are not going to actively make a loss with these fixed deals being offered out now
+1
How much is the early termination fee if you want to get out of the fixed rate if and go variable?
+1
I want to know what ofgems october 2022 caps are going to be for the variable rates, displayed in Gas, standing charge and kwh price, and Electricity, standing charge and kwh price.
Offgem don't know* those numbers yet. I'm not sure what you're expecting is at all realistic. The supplier can't tell you a number that doesn't exist yet.
*well they probably do, they're announced this Friday, but officially no one knows what they are.
which ill accept as accurate when it starts getting presented as that and not the price cap has raised to £XXXX average house arbritrary number means nothing to most people . its smoke and mirrors .
Most people either can't be bothered, or just plain can't do the maths to figure that out. At least having a "price cap is rising, the average household will now pay £......." headline gives the average person in the street a number that makes some sort of sense.
our current supplier e.on has given us the option of fixing our energy bills for the next year
The fact that e.on are touting it makes me suspect it won't be in your best interests. I'm not sure what the current forecast wholesale prices are from spring 2023 onwards, but I'd suspect that fixing at a level that takes the forecast cap rises into account may leave you paying well over the odds after that point.
Offering fixes now seems to be preying on people who have somehow got into their heads that the cap will continue to rise at a similar rate throughout the fixed term.
Most people either can’t be bothered, or just plain can’t do the maths to figure that out. At least having a “price cap is rising, the average household will now pay £…….” headline gives the average person in the street a number that makes some sort of sense.
which is wonderful for them.
for those of us with critical thinking minds it should at least be possible to find the actual numbers without a degree in criminology otherwise as i say its nothing more than smoke and mirrors
for those of us with critical thinking minds it should at least be possible to find the actual numbers without a degree in criminology
It's the first hit if you goggle "ofgem price cap"
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
from the ofgem link above...
Last price cap period
(1 October 2021 - 31 March 2022)
Electricity
£0.21 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.25
Gas
£0.04 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.26
Current price cap period
(1 April - 30 September 2022)
Electricity
£0.28 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.45
Gas
£0.07 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.27
Apols if some of that has got out of sync with copy/paste..... can someone explain the Electricity Daily Standing Charge increase from 25p to 45p?
spare a moment for those heating their homes only from electric... 🙁
It’s the first hit if you goggle “ofgem price cap”
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
/blockquote>Ok now while not in the trying to be smart world go and find the current daily standing charge and unit cost for my post code for say.... Octopus... Or ovo....you know relevent data.
Someone pointed out in another thread about not paying your bill in protest that it's not the household energy companies that are shafting everyone, but rather the companies that generate the stuff, be it leccy or gas - the likes of Shell, BP etc.
So, my question is this. How can the Government restrict what the household supply companies charge us if it makes them a loss - surely it's unsustainable or does the government make up the short fall? Or is there still enough of a margin in the cap to make them a profit, in which case I wonder how much that actually is...? I can't imagine all these privatised utilities are going to be best pleased if they can't make an enormous profit...
EDIT - I've just seen the breakdown of the cap on the OFGEM website. Now I'm assuming the cap (which was always in place for some customers) is just to prevent the suppliers from making astronomical profits and limit them to just enormous profits. Where before there were deals to be had, and I am assuming they relied on the fact that a lot of people could not be arsed to shop around so they didn't lose out too much by offering these deals, there are now not any deals so the profits are just enormous across the board. Makes more sense when I look at it like that!!!
How can the Government restrict what the household supply companies charge us if it makes them a loss – surely it’s unsustainable
When the wholesale price the supply companies are paying is higher than the cap, it is indeed unsustainable, that's why a lot of them went bust. The ones that haven't mostly bought the gas and electricity months in advance, ie, they fixed the price they pay.
The original idea was that competition would control prices, but that didn't work if people didn't switch, so the cap was brought in. That squeezed the 'start-up' companies (the ones without much experience and/or had pulled all the profits out) and they didn't have the cash reserves to buy ahead.
I can't help thinking we'd be better off with the original state monopolies.
Given the current market state I think anyone on a fixed rate that is less than the cap should be forced to pay the cap. Hardly fair that the rest of the market is subbing them at great expense.
Those on a fix will have had their energy bought and hedged by their supplier, who could sell that volume back to market at current prices and benefit...
The ops deal offered by eon sounds ok. They’ve just offered us to go on to variable rate at £250 a month based on our last 12 months usage (currently on £150 a month fixed rate that runs off end of September) - or 2 x fixed rate options at either £458 a month or just over £500 a month. £458 sounds a lot a month but if there’s a big increase in October and then January maybe it’s not so bad. It’s all very finger in the air at the moment.
Luckily our sofa finance just finished - and I think I’m going to cancel virgin tv and just keep broadband. Will pickup either a freeview or freesat recording box instead.
Given the current market state I think anyone on a fixed rate that is less than the cap should be forced to pay the cap. Hardly fair that the rest of the market is subbing them at great expense.
Posted 26 minutes ago
People on fixed had the forethought to fix even when some advice was to stay variable and they have a contract. Why should they be penalised?
Given the current market state I think anyone on a fixed rate that is less than the cap should be forced to pay the cap. Hardly fair that the rest of the market is subbing them at great expense.
Following that line of argument...
-why should energy consumers be paying towards the bail-out of Bulb at an estimated cost of £150/household?
- what about fixed rate mortgages? Borrower fixes at x% but at some point during the fixed term the market rate falls and they're paying a higher rate; are you implying they should demand to move to the lower market rate?
Re the mortgage example no definitely not. I don't see the two as really comparable.
In a normal market I've no issue with fixing but it's such a mess now the right and fair thing would be for the pain to be shared. Yes there would need to be some checks to stop suppliers profiteering from the hedged energy and make sure it yes used to suppress costs elsewhere. Some consumers don't get the chance to fix and they are now being royally shafted by something they had no way to avoid.
For clarity I'm not in that group so no drum to bang and prior to the market mess starting had deliberately opted for a tariff that followed the market moves closely (till the supplier went bust).
Take a look at what Martin Lewis is currently recommending. A few weeks ago he suggested to maybe go with eons fix as it looked about the same as the predicted rise with no get out fee. I took his advice and the predicted rate has shot up so hopefully did the right thing. I think it was 49p per kWh for leccy for 12 months.
I’ve just seen the breakdown of the cap on the OFGEM website. Now I’m assuming the cap (which was always in place for some customers) is just to prevent the suppliers from making astronomical profits and limit them to just enormous profits. Where before there were deals to be had, and I am assuming they relied on the fact that a lot of people could not be arsed to shop around so they didn’t lose out too much by offering these deals, there are now not any deals so the profits are just enormous across the board. Makes more sense when I look at it like that!!!
All the fixed price deals on offer would still make the supplier a profit, but the margins were lower than the variable tariff. Analysis showed that a higher percentage of people elderly & vulnerable people did not regularly switch supplier or tariff so ended up paying more. So the price cap was introduced to redress this balance along with some other changes. Better deals were still available until the wholesale price went up, even then the suppliers who were hedging their wholesale buying could keep operating.
As it stands the price cap now tracks the wholesale cost while leaving headroom for all the other operating expenses a supply business has. There is a good breakdown on the link below (which mirrors similar breakdowns suppliers themselves sometimes publish).
https://moneyweek.com/personal-finance/604454/energy-bill-cost-breakdown-where-your-money-goes
Hmmm - I don’t know if that explanation in Money Week is deliberately misleading or just poorly written but it seems like “I buy this fuel at £50 a unit and I charge you £100 a unit but you only pay me £97 a unit so Im actually making a loss….
The supplier pre-tax margin is the difference between the payment that goes to your energy supplier and the cost the supplier charges to deliver the energy to you.
why should energy consumers be paying towards the bail-out of Bulb at an estimated cost of £150/household?
They shouldn't the companyv should have folded and investors should have taken the loss. The customers moved to a debt free supplier of last resort if no commercial supplier was found.
I don't know exactly what happened to bulbs customers, did their fixed deals stand? If then my suggestion would have cancelled them reducing the cost to other households.
Hmmm – I don’t know if that explanation in Money Week is deliberately misleading or just poorly written but it seems like “I buy this fuel at £50 a unit and I charge you £100 a unit but you only pay me £97 a unit so Im actually making a loss
It makes perfect sense to me when read in conjunction with the graph on the same page.
More like “I buy this fuel at £40 a unit, it costs me another £29 to ship it to you. I pay a £5 in ESG and other costs and my operating costs are £20. You pay £100 of which £4.79 is VAT. My margin is £1.21” and this is still overly simplified.
Although reality in recent months is the wholesale prices have gone up so for many the margin has gone slightly negative. Currently I know of two large suppliers who are actively reshaping to reduce their operating costs in order to balance the books.
Bulb hasn't offered fixed tariffs so there was none to continue.
The thinking behind Bulbs special administration was that it was the less expensive option. Letting Bulb go through the supplier of last resort process would have meant the new supplier requesting a lot of money from the "slush" fund in order to cover the cost of the unhedged energy needed to support the new customers. This amount was calculated to be worse for everyone than special administration.
They shouldn't be penalised, but why should those that right ahead and had supplier go bust, or those unable to get a fixed deal ahead of time?
It's not about finding a customer most at fault and making them pay. It's about finding a fair way for all to pay for a basic necessity.