[Closed] Fishkeeping thread

Any chance of being more specific about the types of fish you have? So, for example, are your 'bottom feeder things' actually algae eaters like these?

And your kissing fish actually gouramis?

I ask because the species will determine a lot of the behaviour. But it sounds like your filter is doing what it should. I would expect your fish to all become quite lethargic in the event of the filter not doing its job, or the water needing freshening up.

It's been many years, but I used to be a bit of an aquarium guy.

Wow, spot on with those two pics.

I was thinking that it would be ok tbh when they are perky.

Hi,

As long as there is movement of the water it should be fine, although if you aim one of the nozzles up it will break the surface and increase gaseous exchange. Try just having the top nozzle working to increase the agitation at the top, the filter should draw in from the bottom so will increase movement through the water column.

You could always get an air pump.

I don't know much about gouramis but some I think live in the upper levels. Are they staying at the surface with gills moving rapidly or just breaking the surface as if eating something?

I was thinking that it would be ok tbh when they are perky.

When I was growing up we had three or four fish tanks on the go. After me and my brother had left home my dad started a sort of managed decline - not replacing stock and amalgamating the kit into one tank as bits of kit wore out until there was just one tank in the living room.

He had friend staying one evening and was explaining once these last fish kicked the bucket that was it -  he'd get rid. As he was explaining this it was remarked how perky and active the fish were that evening - almost as if they knew they were being talked about. The friends spent the night the living room on the sofa bed and were kept away by the splash splash sound of the fish darting around.

In the morning they were all dead (the fish, not our friends) - the thermostat had broken on the heater and while their demise was being discussed they the fish were slowly getting poached - by morning the tank was too hotter than the radiators.

Gouramis live in the top third of the aquarium. They do break the surface of the water as they take in more oxygen. They also build their nests out of bubbles they make on the surface. When I kept aquariums I seem to remember that the gouramis were more happy when the water was more still so over time I tweaked the filter to be on its lowest setting I could get it whilst still being effective at its job.

Are they staying at the surface with gills moving rapidly or just breaking the surface as if eating something?

The latter, definitely.

As instructed by the internet I tested the pH of the water in the morning before any light had got the plants photosynthesis, and it was still neutral to within the accuracy of a test strip. Think it's fine.

You better check that you haven't been sold actual kissing gouramis as they grow fast and grow large (unless you are growing them for your dinner). They can grow upto about a foot long and live for over 20 years.

If your bottom feeders are those Plecs then they can also get pretty huge, I had to get rid of the one I had and I've seen one in an office almost the length of its (too small) tank

In my opinion, Molgrips, you are on the road to rookie fishkeeping mistakes...

You've taken on a new setup and "rushed" to buy additional fish, when you really should ensure the setup is bacteriologically sound and supporting the catfish that came with the tank. New fish so soon could mean your setup quickly turns into a "toxic soup" due to a build up of ammonia and nitrite. I would advise anyone new to the hobby that once they have fishless cycled their tank, done a qualifying week and introduced the first (often social) group of fish, hang fire for at least a month.

It is really important to test new setups with liquid test kits to check ammonia and nitrite levels. In my experience, the latter is often the most toxic, greater than ~0.5mg/l can be fatal.

Quick growing plants can use ammonia and nitrite as food sources, but they require other nutrients too and a sensible  lighting period of ~6 hours. If the plants don't like your water and/or the nutrients/lighting is imbalanced, they will go from being a help to making the water more toxic for the fish.

My access to the forum was limited last week, but last I read, you don't have a reliable identification of those catfish that came with the tank. They could well be Bristlenose Catfish, which grow to ~10cm SL (excludes tail fin length), being omnivores with a veggie preference they produce a lot of waste... Which means lots of water changes and strong filtration with plenty of surface rippling (a U4 in "A" mode where the output is at the water surface should be fine in up to ~200 litre tank for no more than ~4 for life.

If they are  https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=88 for example, they require a 6-foot tank, as they should reach ~30cm SL in captivity!

You really need to find out what species of Gourami you have, as Kissing Gourami could easily reach ~20cm SL and will require a 6-foot tank. Plus for many fish, including Gourtami as far as I'm aware, two is a bad number... Singleton, at least three, ideally 5+. many fish form a hierarchy among their own kind and in small numbers, the alpha of the group will often kill lower ranks via physical damage and/or stress.

Then we come to setup needs. Most plecs require well oxygenated water, from at least 8x water turnover by the filter, completely the opposite requirements of Gouramis and especially Guppies, who will really struggle to swim in such setups.

I'm sorry this is such a damning post and that I could not get involved in your developments last week due to log in forum issues, but responsible fishkeeping requires patience and a lot of personal research and sadly, often very much ignoring advice given by fish stores that will simply tell you want you want to here so you spend money in their store... To the detriment of the fish within a few weeks (and then you go back and buy more sacrificial fish).

You aren't the first to make such mistakes, I made plenty myself and you won't be the last. I hate it when I lose fish without knowing a definitive reason why, because I'm left in no better position of knowledge to know how I can prevent something happening again.

...thegoats post is comprehensive.

Did we have this discussion in another thread? I suspect the gouramis are ok for the time but will by the account of others be too large for your tank.

Take the plecs and gouramis back to the shop. With that internal filter you don't want a heavy bioload as they are a nightmare to clean. Get some danios and a kuhli loach. When you have some spare cash get an external filter. Untill then use the top nozel to disturb the water surface which will give a bit of flow for the danios but not disturb to bottom which the kuhlis wont like.

I have developed a very specific way of maintaining a tank as outlined in the other thread. For the fish I am prepared to keep it works and I haven't lost a fish other than to old age in 12 years. For species of fish that I know this won't work for, I don't keep them as I am not prepared.

We didn't buy the plecostomus, we were given them with the tank. We were just discussing trying to pass some on.

Bear in mind I didn't plan any of this, so it's all a bit of a balls up as far as I am concerned. What's wrong with gouramis? Too big? The tank is a metre long, I thought that could accommodate some decent sized fish no?

The tank is a reasonable size for a home aquarium to keep some fish in. A true hobbyists definition of reasonable size will be very different to the average persons. A shop will take the plecs as they will be able to sell them. For a metre tank of 150 litres I think the best approach would be a big shoal of danio size fish , you could keep 20  or so easily with a handful of Kuhli loach.

As mentioned keeping fish is not easy, so when beginning, don't set yourself up to fail as it were. Some fish shops will sell anything to anyone, beware. I know enough (29 yrs keeping fish) to know there are some very knowledgeable people on here (not referencing myself), go with their advice.

Not challenging anyone's advice. I have no idea what I am doing I just want an easy life and to keep my kids happy. The fish dealers we went to wouldn't sell us much because they would be eaten by plecos. So I am not sure they are trying to rip us off.

Sounds like the plecos are an issue so we should get rid of them.

The Kissing gouramis will also be a problem when they grow. If you want an easy life get the danios. Then get an external filter. With that combination maintenance will be straight forward and not time consuming.  Danios are lively and fun to watch as are Kuhli loach.

Big external filter + small fish = happy fish and minimum input from you.

My pleco never ate any other fish and was about 8" long when I gave him to a fish shop. They produce a lot of waste as they grow though. My favourite fish were white cloud mountain minnows, they're small and tough and very active, always splashing around in the pump jet and they look like they're wearing really bad make up. Serpea tetras were fun too.

A very rough guide is 1cm of fish for every litre of tank. I used to like to keep a couple shoals of different coloured tetras and a few Corydoras for the bottom. Danios and white cloud mountain minnows as above are also easy to keep. Just google for ideas of a community tank setup and you will get plenty of guides.

https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/external-filters/classic-350

This will last 20 yrs + and make your fish keeping life  easier, when you try to clean the foam on an internal most of the filth will end up back in the tank.

Both gouramis died.

Plecos will only eat dead fish, they are primarily algae eaters. They also grow big (12" not uncommon).

To keep the kids happy - ge the plecos to somewhere better for them and instead bu Otocinculus - cheap, do the same job, tiny and a shoal is really interesting. They do need a planted aquarium. Corydoras are another good shout but don't eat algae and grow a little bigger  - just have fewer of them. The bottom feeders need their own food too, not scrpas from the top (as there shouldn't be any - otherwise you're feeding too much).

For mid / surface lots of small fish are much  much easier to keep and usually more interesting for kids. Danios, tetras, certain barbs, mountain minnows all good. I'd avoid live bearers easy to keep and unstoppable at breeding unless you have something predatory like Angel fish to control the population.

Gouramis have a labyrinth to breath air - if they are continually att he surface its a sign of poor water quality. Change 1/3 to 1/2 immediately with dechlorinator. Appreciate this is a bit late, but for future reference.

EDIT: Internal filters are fine as long as stocking is kept low and they are maintained (wash the sponges in extracted tank water when you do a water change - a bucket full every 8 weeks works fine if you stick to low fish count high planting)

They weren't at the surface a lot, they just acted what I'd expect to be normal. Although the one was sat on the bottom for quite a while last night not doing much looking sluggish...

Thanks for the species tips though will have a look around.  New fish day this weekend.

Please don't buy any more fish until the tank/filters are established or the plecs (some at least) have gone.

Then just get a few hardy species and slowly build up stock levels as the tank establishes itself

Please don’t buy any more fish until the tank/filters are established

Ok so how long does this take?  We're following the instructions we were given.

Then just get a few hardy species and slowly build up stock levels as the tank establishes itself

This is what we're attempting to do.

2 weeks minimum and introduce only a few inches at a time

Just read the top bit - if you lift the filter a bit it will help with oxygenation, which is probably good at this point. Once established and planted you can slow it down and lower it if you prefer (reduce noise maybe)

We kept the plecos and original filter for a week (or two?) then added the new filter and ran it alongside the old one for a week.  Then we added four guppies.  We now have four big plants and five small ones, they seem to be growing.

We have left the lights on for quite a while though - they might only be getting 6 hours of full darkness at this time of year.  Could that have caused stress?

I'd imagine from what you've said it'll be a couple of weeks or so.

Do you have a lquid test kit?

If not, pick one up which has at least ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. API for example

KH and PH are also useful but not critical at this stage.

Ammonia and nitrite must always be zero. If they're not you need to change water until they are (dosed with Prime or another quality dechlorinator which breaks down chloramine - *critical*).

When they consistently remain at zero for a week or so, you can say you are 'cycled' and can potentially add more fish.

Nitrate itself is not really dangerous except to sensitive species such as ramirezi and some shrimp, however it can be used as kind of dirtiness indicator. Check it fortnightly, if the level rises continually, you need to change more water as part of your weekly routine. It's telling you more waste is being produced than is being exported.

Plants when growing well in medium to strong light will remove ammonia, phosphate, nitrate, and some other pollutants. However there are some which are not removed by plants, organics, lipids and such, therefore water changes are always welcome even in heavily planted tanks.

I mentioned KH and PH above,  those are useful to make sure you buy the correct type of fish to suit your water.  But just knowing if your water is hard or soft is usually enough to make the right decision.

Example fish---

Hard:  most rainbows e.g. boesmani ,  live bearers (guppies, platties, mollies, sword tails)

Soft: neons, cardinals, (most tetra in fact), ramirezi, angels

You will have much more luck if you pick the correct type.

How big are these 7 'Plec's'? They are usually tough old buggers but can grow to 18"+

Get a nitrite testing kit as above and if u are keeping the plecs use them to mature the tank

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/frequently-asked-questions-on-nitrite

Plecs (if that's what they are) are mostly about 5" long except one big bastard which is maybe 7" long.

We have testing strips that have nitrates, nitrites, KH, pH, ammonia, Chlorine and maybe something else I forget.  They all come back fine, except Chlorine which is halfway between zero and the next square on the identification chart.

Our water is soft, afaik.

It was said that most of the small fish would be eaten by the big plecs but if we get rid of them that would give us more options.

molgrips

Subscriber
Plecs (if that’s what they are) are mostly about 5″ long except one big bastard which is maybe 7″ long.

We have testing strips that have nitrates, nitrites, KH, pH, ammonia, Chlorine and maybe something else I forget. They all come back fine, except Chlorine which is halfway between zero and the next square on the identification chart.

Our water is soft, afaik.

It was said that most of the small fish would be eaten by the big plecs but if we get rid of them that would give us more options.

Photograph the 'plecs'. There are many species. And they could even be loaches or otos.

I'd strongly recommend getting a liquid test kit, the strips simply are not accurate enough. You might as well taste the water for how much they are telling you.

Plec species do not generally eat fish, though they may torment them, and can be rather territorial.

no one seems to have mentioned feeding. IME 90% of fish die from overfeeding as this pollutes the water.

Don't feed them anything for a week. This will give the tank, the water, the filter and the fish time to recover to a more normal level.

100% of newbies to fishkeeping overfeed their fish.

Ok.

We are going away for the weekend, we put in a weekend feeding tablet.  Should maybe take it out again?

I just used to feed them on the Friday before I left then again on the Sunday or Monday when I got home. Missing a couple days every now and then isn't bad for them at all.

Unless those multi day tablets have got better over the last 10 years or so then they mostly disolve a lot quicker than they say and get eaten right away anyway.

....introduce only a few inches at a time

wahey!!

Just catching up with this thread, after being away since Monday morning...

Both gouramis dying rings alarm bells for me, if it was bullying, one would still be alive. IMO, your tank is a toxic soup and you should do a ~95% water change with dechlorinated water before you go away for the weekend.

Test strips are infamous for giving incorrect readings, liquid test kits are usually far more reliable. Trying to recall the name of the test kit pack I got, it cost ~£20 ~7 years ago...

I've not done a test on any of my active six tanks for ~5 years, but that's because I try to regularly observe each tank for a few minutes each day and if fish are doing something out of the ordinary, a ~50% water change is often my course of action and each tank gets ~33-50% weekly water changes as routine.

"Holiday food blocks" are often very risky!

I gave each of my six tanks a more generous feed just before we left Monday morning @0900, the equivalent of approx 1.5 days worth. We got back Friday @1700, sadly lost one of my 25 Pareutropius mandevillei but this was expected... One was sitting on the tank floor away from the group first thing Monday morning

Just after posting above, I opened up the right end of my six foot African riverine tank of bigger fish and found one of my Synodontis brichardi unusually near the top of one of the supplemental U4 filters.

Looked at filters and saw the other supplemental U4's venturi was not injecting air into the output and the output was quite weak, the Duckweed I added on Monday morning had partially blocked the sponges and venturi. The synos are rheophilic, needing well oxygenated water, being up near the surface indicated oxygen levels are relatively low.

So tank water removed, sponges and venturi cleaned in removed tank water, fresh water added but only enough to put top output fractionally under water surface to maximise rippling. Later today, I will add some more fresh water.

Case studies... It's all in the timing. 😉

60% water change.  Hoovered up loads of gunk from the stones.

Guppies still looking full of life.

Update:

Bought some female guppies, they have had babies which has added soms much needed interest. We didn't take and special precautions as we think all 6 bought females were pregnant. So far looks like 7 babies have made it through their first week, but we should have more soon. May have to start removing females if things get out of hand though.

Two fish died seemingly randomly. One had some sort of fungus which we treated and seems to be better now. But the instructions for the treatment said to remove the zeolite from the pump for the duration, and I am now worrying about the good bacteria.

Good bacteria doesn't live on the zeolite, it mostly lives in the sponge filter bit and in your gravel.

What are you water tests like? Numbers please!

any pictures? 😀

Rabbits breed like guppies.

Numbers are all in the "ok" range except chlorine, which is a little strange since we've dosed with chlorine treatment plenty.

So what's zeolite for if not to keep bacteria in?

Update

We decided we wanted the plants to grow properly so (after lots of research and advice seeking) we emptied everything out and put in special plant soil and covered it with black gritty stuff.  We re-planted the original plants and put in some more. The original plants had been nibbled bare by the plecs which were apparently Ancistrus.  These we gave to the fish shop, and swapped them for two little orange dwarf plecostomus.  They also sold us some CO2 potion and plant food.  The plants grew pretty well before but with CO2 and food they should do much better.

Two of our baby guppies (out of about 8) survived, one is doing very nicely and looks like a small fish, the other still looks like a fry.  The other female guppies still look pregnant but not much is happening.  The water was really murky after we put the new substrate in despite rinsing it for ages, but it's not so bad now.

Here's the new tank.  My wife has decided she hates it, but I much prefer it to the gravel.

If you have a second tank you can decant your fish to for a few days, I'd put in one of these Juwel foam textured type backgrounds. I like the black granite one, a well planted aquarium with dark substrate looks fantastic against it.

We don't have a second tank, nor do we have the room or inclination for one.

The lack of backdrop is a thing, for sure - at some point we'll move the pictures that were there before, but apart from that the plan is to simply have plants as backdrop.

Update:

We tried again with blue dwarf gouramis some months later, but they always died.  Apparently a common issue.  The only fish so far I really loved having - beautiful and fascinating to watch - but after we lost three I had to give up.  We do weekly water changes, we have test strips and now a liquid drop testing kit, and everything has always been fine.  We followed all the advice but they just slowed down and died.

The other fish are fine generally, but had a few deaths here and there.

We now have:

9x harlequin rasboras

3x mollies

1x ruby tipped shark

1x dwarf plecostomus

'Some' guppies, hard to keep track!

It sounds a lot when listed out, but I'm monitoring the Ammonia and it's not bad according to what I've read.  It exceeds the number of 'fish inches' for the size of tank (150l) but they are all small fish.  It certainly doesn't look full.

We also removed the old stones and put in soil and substrate to allow us to plant a shedload of plants.  The original lights turned out to be rubbish so we bought a full spectrum LED from ebay and the plants shot up.. until their CO2 requirements got too high.  Algae started to grow too.  Using liquid CO2 didn't help much so now I've got a cheap DIY CO2 kit from ebay and it works really well using citric acid and sodium bicarbonate.

The plants are photosynthesising so much that by the end of the day there are as many oxygen bubbles coming from the plants as there are CO2 bubbles coming from the diffuser.  Will have to see how they grow.  I've read that one way to get rid of the black beard algae is to get the plants to grow really well with CO2 and out-compete the algae for nutrients.

No fish deaths for ages.