[Closed] First digital SLR? Simplicity would be good.

Main trouble with both is all the nonsense on the display

just stick some tape over it, or don't look

if you have some pentax lenses then get one the lenses will fit (check backwards compatibility though)

if i was buying again i'd by olympus

you are unlikely to find anything 'simple' and they are all pretty much of a muchness*. comes down to which one you are most comfortable using.
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*Nikon is bestest 😛

I assume you can turn the screen off, that should do it. You can get M42 adapters if you want to make your life really difficult.

Nikon user here too, but its mainly aesthetics and build quality on my D80 that swung me over. Now I use Nikon I couldn't be without the wireless flash (creative lighting in nikon jargon) that it offers.

Modern cameras in the middle segment (D80 or now D90 and equivalent models from other brands) are probably what you want to aim for. Why? Well the cheaper models (D60 etc) don't have the manual controls as easy to access as on the lower-mid range models. My camera alows me to set it from full auto to full manual easily, or anywhere in between. It has enough dials and buttons to easily set every option by just holding down a button and spinning a dial. The lower models often need you to delve into menus to set stuff more often.

Nikon D80/D90 or better?

All the "nonsense on the display" is summarised on an LCD panel at the top:
[img] [/img]

Is that any better?

I use the Pentax DSLR's as I already had a large collection of Pentax lenses that could be used on them. I also tend to prefer the handling of the Pentax cameras as well so it made the transition to digital pretty easy.

Do you have any decent K-mount lenses you can re-use? If so are they KA or K mount (i.e. do they have an auto aperture setting)? If they're pre-KA then one of the earlier Pentax DSLR's (like the DS2) might be a good option as they won't be too expensive 2nd hand and they're more compatible with the oldest lenses than the newer cameras. The newer cameras can still be used but fewer metering and flash options are available.

I've still got a DS as backup and for use with some of the older lenses, although I still use even some M42 screw mount lenses with my K10D as well.

Mrmichaelwright talks sense. Don't worry about the quality of the pictures they take, most people are unlikely to stretch the camera to it's limits in ways that can be compensated for by moving to another brand.

Do think about whether you want to use your existing lenses.
Do think about how the camera feels to use to you, more than most other things.
Consider whether dust sealing and water resistance might be important to you- it's the thing I miss most after switching fom Olympus.

You can turn the information panel off on cameras, you know, if you're suffering from overload. All dslr's have more shooting modes than you ever want to see, but they also all have manual.

Sadly, none will function without batteries, unlike an OM-1.

but they also all have manual

As CHB mentions, the manual mode on entry-level cameras often means going through the information screen on the back to set aperture and speed, which can be a bit rubbish and fiddly:

[img] [/img]
Nikon D60

[img] [/img]
Canon 450

[size=1]pics from http://www.dpreview.com [/size]

As CHB mentions, the manual mode on entry-level cameras often means going through the information screen on the back to set aperture and speed, which can be a bit rubbish:

that's a bit stink then, isn't it.

The old MX is fully manual, so my lenses are K, not KA. Looking through the viewfinder I can see shutter speed, aperture, focus, and metering. Never felt the need for much more. Not looking to reuse old stuff (although a good niche product might be to make a digital back to retro fit on to old SLRs). Just would rather have a bit of simplicity. Too many extra modes I'm never likely to use, and the back panel seems to be offering a tutorial on some of the ones i'm looking at, rather than anything useful. I guess i just need to play with them a bit more to get to know how to turn off all the flashy stuff.

Sadly, none will function without batteries, unlike an OM-1.

if you carry a spare this is a non-issue beyond the weight. Most other new-fangled gear like phones, computers, washing machines, TVs, lights and microwaves also perform disappointingly without electricity. You get used to it.

The old MX is fully manual, so my lenses are K, not KA

Might be worth looking for a second hand Pentax DS2 then. I use K-lenses with mine and shoot much as I did with the film cameras (I've had a couple of MX's and still have a few Pentax film cameras, including a 645) i.e. aperture priority using the aperture ring on the lens.

There are some limitations on things like metering modes (e.g. matrix meterings needs KA or later but you've still got spot and centre weighted) and flash modes but generally most of the Pentax kit still works, even back to screw mount (although you'll need to stop-down for metering).

Midlife, your last post just confirms what I said. You need to step up to the D90 (or equivalent in other brands) level. These give you exposure info in viewfinder and are a LOT less fiddly to change settings on than the entry level DSLRs (which assume you are going to use them on green camera full auto idiot mode 90% of the time).

if you carry a spare this is a non-issue beyond the weight. Most other new-fangled gear like phones, computers, washing machines, TVs, lights and microwaves also perform disappointingly without electricity. You get used to it.

Until you run out of it. Then it's a pain in the arse.

Simon,
I would have thought that carrying [b]a[/b] spare would not have been sufficient for your needs.

Until you run out of it. Then it's a pain in the arse.
I would have thought that carrying a spare would not have been sufficient for your needs.

in 5 years of digital photography I have run out of power one time when I'd forgotten to charge the spare. On my D300 I reckon one battery is good for about 1000 shots and my max on a ride has been ~700.

Pentax K-m it is then or even better the soon to be released K-x (looks like a good'un)
Could push the boat out and get a K-7 or an older K20/Samsung GX20
(Samsung use Pentax mount and are almost identical)

Jessops don't sell Pentax due to them not renewing their credit line, don't blame them either with the state of Jessops finances

Looking through the viewfinder I can see shutter speed, aperture, focus, and metering. Never felt the need for much more.

There are a couple more to consider for digital, even in fully manual mode.
Namely white balance and ISO.

Also if you are using auto-focus then AF-mode is fairly important and if you use auto-metering then the metering mode is also required*

Flash power is also important if you're using the on-board flash.

* I know you said you use manual mode, but some people are more manual than others.

the back panel seems to be offering a tutorial on some of the ones i'm looking at, rather than anything useful

This can be changed on some, for instance the pretty D60 display above with the pointless graphic of the aperture can be changed to be a more functional, utilitarian view:

[img] [/img]

🙂 I've found that, despite being fairly profficient with manual mode on my compact, to the point of installing the CHDK firmware extension and using it fully, my 20D has so far produced a few AMAZING shots, but mostly highlighted my inabilities 🙂 One thing that is refreshing, is the fact that I have one spare battery for it, but I've yet to empty the first, let alone the spare when out shooting.

M42 adapters and manual lenses are MUCHOS fun and produce some amazing results for £5!

Funny all this talk of spare batteries when upgrading from a film SLR. I don't remember ever shooting 20 rolls of film in a day with mine.

Olympus user here.
Lens selection is a bit limited and if you're a fish-eye freak they can be pricey. The standard Olympus lens are *extremely* good - some of the best standard glass and not expensive for it.
Four-thirds used to suffer more noise at higher ISO - but the newer Four-thirds sensors have improved noise reduction and cope much better.
Dedicated flash selection also limited.
But all said - you only buy this gear the once.
The main selling point for me of four-thirds is the overall reduced size and weight. I'm using an E420 with the 25mm pancake lens and this is small for an SLR.

Micro four-thirds is also emerging and these diddy little cameras are also very capable.

Hello

I use a Pentax K200 body and old KA mount lenses that I had from my old p30n / k1000 manual... Got some very nice shots with them too. As others have stated metering modes may be restricted with K lenses but I really like pentax build / ease of use / and availability of nice lenses off ebay at often cheapo prices - Oh along with sony / pentax have their shake reduction built into camera bodies and not the expensive way that canikons do....

I highly rate pentax - have a look on the pentaxuser website too for far more detailed advice than i can give ! Think pentax dslrs def underexpose the shots so factor that into your decision - albeit better than overexposing !

paul

Lots to think about, I'll have to have a trip to a decent shop or two. Our high street here is Jessops or Argos. Like the idea of the D90, but not the price. Also a bit of residual Pentax loyalty, so will have to at least try a K-m or K-7 for feel. Dust and water are something to consider, so will give Olympus a play too. See, I haven't really narrowed it down at all!

vinnyeh

Mrmichaelwright talks sense

you're new here then?

8)

another vote for olympus. Got an e500 and three lenses and I've had some great results for the last 3 years

Some of the Pentax bodies are also dust/water sealed - my K10D is, not sure which others though.

You're quite right MLCs - get into a shop and pick up a few cameras - it's the only way. Most of the cameras recommended so far will give you everything you need, so it's just a case of finding out which system feels right to you.

Having said that, I'd highly recommend a 2nd hand Nikon D200 (or D300 if you can stretch to it). As sson as you move up and away from the 'prosumer' cameras, you get far better dust / waterproofing - I've used D200s / 300s in lashing rain and snow with no issues. You also get the benefit of Nikon's Creative Lighting System as mentioned above - wireless flash in short.

Buying into Canon or Nikon also gives you a massive choice of lenses, third party manufactured or otherwise, and a wealth of 2nd hand choices too.

The new Pentax DSLRs are pretty good, now that the long period of Pentax in limbo has finished now that they're wholely owned by Hoya they're really pushing to get back into the market.
I've had a K20D for about 6 months and I like it a lot. The body is very well sealed and holds nicely. The new K7 is supposed to be another level beyond the K20D and has addressed some of the faults. Like all modern Pentax it does tend to underexpose a bit, but I've got some nice photos out of it and you can always adjust the exposure to compensate. I have a 10-20 Sigma zoom and the DA* 50-135 2.8 lens (which is very good) and am using it for general, out cycling and architectural photography.
If you like Pentax, and you've got lenses already then why not give one a go?
The only problem is I'd quite like a M9, but thats not realistic for a while.

warning: do NOT handle a D200/300 unless you have a reasonable expectation of buying one. People can witter on about film, pinhole cameras, bridge cameras etc etc but once you've laid hands on a machine that can give you 6 properly exposed shots a second - that [b]begs[/b] to be used and used - you won't want to mess with toy cameras an longer :o) I had a D60 briefly before I gave it to my daughter, and it seemed like a real slug in comparison, and despite having fast card would slow to one shot a second after a few exposures. With the D300 it needs a very light touch not to take 2 shots when you press the shutter release. Of course speed isn't all there is to it, the point is, nothing gets in the way of taking pictures. I expect there are Canons just as good.

Question:

Why do people buy DSLRs to use in <quote>"green camera full auto idiot mode 90% of the time"?<quote>

Why..?!

No_eyed_dear: Two answers pick one!

"why do people buy 6 inch full suspension bikes to ride round firetrails with no idea what compression and rebound settings do?

OR

"green camera mode gives very good results and avoids any really bad pictures if you are not familiar with F-stops and apperture or obscure camera settings. Yet you still get the intelligent focus, speed and glass quality of an SLR"

Though I don't personally use it, I know many people with "good" cameras that never take it off full auto.

I attended a workshop by [url= http://www.pascalbaetens.com/ ]Pascal Baetens[/url] in which he referred to P (Program) mode as "Professional" mode. He said "just put your camera on P and forget it". He was not 100% serious, but it does underline that there is a bit of snobbishness about auto modes.

I've been thining of buying a DSLR for a while and I sought the opinion of one of my clients who is a pro photographer. He recommended Canon EOS-450D. As I am a noob concerning cameras, I would tend to go with his advice.

Green and P modes are very good for snapshots, but are far too eager to bump the ISO. Using the DSLR as a snapshot camera seems odd at first, but when you realise I carry my camera virtually everywhere, I never know if I'll just want a snapshot or want to put more effort in to a lucky find. I certainly would hate to take out my P&S and then miss a chance for a really nice shot.

Question:

Why do people buy DSLRs to use in <quote>"green camera full auto idiot mode 90% of the time"?<quote>

Why..?!

...you can't put a ****ing great big telephoto lens, or an ultra-wide lens on a P&S.

And... generally you'll get a better AF system and superior high ISO performance with a dSLR, and of course you've got the optical view finder and a decent grip.

Nothing wrong with P mode for a quick snapshot IMO.

Never seen the point of using full green-camera Auto mode though, especially when it just guesses what you want to focus on.

I typically shoot in aperture-priority mode. I think I've only used full-manual M once or twice (apart from some long-exposure Bulb shots obviously).

i've not seen the need for the 6 shots a second bodies - surely, unless you're really going for a sequence, you'd be better off just timing your shot rather than mashing the button and hoping?

its true that you can't put a really long or really wide lens on a compact (my dslr range currently runs from 10-400mm), however with the newer superzoom cameras you can come pretty damn close (they do approx 28-500 irrc), and have all the control you could need, in a much smaller, cheaper package - the results in good light will normally be just as good as well. Unless you want to invest in a bunch of lenses, I personally (as a dslr user) believe you're probably better off with an all-in-one.

newer superzoom [compact] cameras... the results in good light will normally be just as good as well.

Unless you want a shallow depth of field, which for me is often one of the biggest differences in the final image. Compacts use a small sensor so can struggle to separate subject from background.

Unless you want a shallow depth of field

don't you mean 'broad' ??

don't you mean 'broad' ??

I don't think he did. Compacts have broad DoF and it reduces the extent to which you can separate the subject by blurring the background.

don't you mean 'broad' ??

Don't [i]think [/i]so.

Deep/broad DOF:
[img] [/img]

Shallow DOF:
[img] [/img]

No?

Broad is width side to side, deep is depth front to back. DoF is going to be best described by "deep/shallow".

i've not seen the need for the 6 shots a second bodies - surely, unless you're really going for a sequence, you'd be better off just timing your shot rather than mashing the button and hoping?

Try shooting anything that you only get one shot of and moves fairly quickly. Case in point - I was recently shooting Danny MacAskill at a show, he was doing the "final" drop of the day from 10ft, he hopped up onto his rear, round 180 and dropped. I got him at ~30 degree increments and was able to select the image with the best lighting and focus point.

When trying to catch the shallow DoF effect with a DSLR (doesnt really happen on a point and shoot) the AF often mis-focuses and that can make the image look bloody awful and be a wasted shot - a quick blast of 3 usually gets at least on as you want it without having to pose things/people or missing something fleeting.

Don't think so.

sorry Graham, I misread your post 🙂

you'd be better off just timing your shot rather than mashing the button and hoping?

unless the action is being repeated it's hard to guess beforehand what the best shot will be and by the time you can see it, it's already too late as brain/finger delay is at least 100mS

Also when taking shots of people - often their expression changes quickly or they close their eyes, or something. A burst of a few frames gives you a better chance of the optimum shot.

sorry Graham, I misread your post

No probs. I frequently confuse myself by talking about wanting more DoF, when I actually less of it. 😕

brain/finger delay is at least 100mS

Hmm.. but if you are shoot 6 frames-per-second, then you're getting 166ms between frames. Longer if you include exposure time*.

So if you would miss the action at 100ms delay then surely catching it when shooting at 166ms intervals is going to be pretty hit and miss?

(* I have no idea how exposure time features in the 6 fames-per-second thing. Is that a theoretical maximum assuming zero exposure time?)

(* I have no idea how exposure time features in the 6 fames-per-second thing. Is that a theoretical maximum assuming zero exposure time?)

yes, except any speed above flash sync limit is effectively zero.

[img] [/img]

yes, except any speed above flash sync limit is effectively zero.

Why so?

Love frame two BTW, he looks like he's almost smiling as it his own impending calamity 😀

So if you would miss the action at 100ms delay then surely catching it when shooting at 166ms intervals is going to be pretty hit and miss?

I think the point is that if you were to line up and take a single shot you'd need to predict it perfectly, but at 5 or 6 fps you have a better chance of getting a usable image very similar to the one you wanted, if not the exact one you wanted. Things like SFBs squence above, if he had lined up for a single shot he might have got one shot as the rider reached the edge, anticipating no problems. But with a burst you get to see the unexpected and to record it in fairly good rate.

Why so?

Because the frame rate is fixed at X fps by the sensor interface and memory, so so long as the shutter speed (and flash recharge if needed) is fast enough to fit between those points in time and does not last >166ms - a slight overhead, your frame rate is unaffected. If you're running 0.5 sec exposures then your frame rate drops to 2fps naturally.

I'm a Nikon user, so can only speak for their range. I have both a D200 and a D40. For more serious photography, the D200 is superb and has pretty much any controls that you could need. The D40 is lacking a few of the controls that the D200 has, but is about half the weight and half the size and so that is the camera I more often pick up to take a quick few snaps. If you're taking it out biking, the size and weight benefits of the D40 over the D200 could also be beneficial.

If you're just starting out with a DSLR, then I would get a second hand D40 (not the D40x, as this has higher resolution but less pixel sensitivity) for a couple of hundred quid with a lens and start playing with it. Once you find how many "pro" features you are missing then make a decision to go up the range at that point.

Buying new, a D90 will do pretty much anything you could want, without being in the semi-pro price, size and weight brackets. Next up the range for me would be the D300 and if I wanted/needed full-frame then the D700 would be on the cards.

yes, except any speed above flash sync limit is effectively zero.Why so?

The flash max sync speed is the lowest speed at which the rear shutter curtain doesn't start moving until the front curtain is fully open, so I think incorrectly I thought there would be no additional delay for faster speeds, but now I've changed my mind 🙂

Because the frame rate is fixed at X fps by the sensor interface and memory, so so long as the shutter speed (and flash recharge if needed) is fast enough to fit between those points in time and does not last >166ms

no, it's a mechanical thing, how fast the camera can:
lift mirror
stop down lens
open front curtain
close rear curtain
open lens aperture
drop mirror
retract both curtains

with my D300 it can go faster with an extra battery pack as more current is available for the motors. The sensors support video at 24fps

SFB - yup, there's a mechanical limitation too but...

The sensors support video at 24fps

At VASTLY reduced resolution. Even at HD resolutions you're looking at a TINY fraction of the data processing required per frame.

But regardless, my point was that it isnt the shutter opening duration that's particularly limiting until proper long exposures are needed, and then you'd not use a burst anyway.

At VASTLY reduced resolution. Even at HD resolutions you're looking at a TINY fraction of the data processing required per frame

http://www.red.com/cameras/

Yummy!

Mmmmm indeedy! Though clearly not an SLR!

I used to work with a camera that would capture normal vid at 30fps but, given the right software tweaks, run at 900fps. Unfortunately it was windowed to a 200x16 pixel area in 256 bit greyscale 🙂

Though clearly not an SLR!

No, but it can take Nikon lenses and shoot 12 megapixel RAW images at 120 fps!

T'is probably the future.

Love that sequence of shots 😀

Does anyone know of any good books, websites etc that's a good starting point in learning how to use a DSLR effectively?