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I added a first aid app to my phone the other day and can’t believe they don’t come as a standard app on new phones. We all carry phones these days and having an app might save lives. I always hope that if I was taken ill ( heart attack etc) that someone would be able to save me, if everyone had an app I think my chances may be higher!! So please add one if you haven’t already, the St Johns one is great and free! Cheers all.
To add to this.
The British Heart Foundation provide free Heart Start CPR courses which only take a couple of hours but teach the essential skills needed to save someones life.
The problem is that having an App doesn't render you 'qualified', and that (possibly) opens a can of worms.
It's often taught on First Aid courses that you can assist in any situation to the level to which you are qualified, and any actions outside your qualification could leave you liable to litigation - how true that is, and how much a court would prosecute a case outside of Good Samaritan law I don't know. I've kept a REC 16hr cert up-to-date for god-knows how many years, so I'm happy that I can perform CPR, bandage cuts and grazes, apply a tourniquet and a few other bits, but let's not start thinking of emergency trachaeotomy etc...
Don't get me wrong, I hate litigation culture, but I'd strongly suggest booking on a course rather than downloading an app - the BHF course Hedley suggests would be a good starter
The problem is that having an App doesn’t render you ‘qualified’, and that (possibly) opens a can of worms.
No, it doesn't. Most first aid courses don't "qualify" you do anything as such. They don't qualify you to give advice, or provide any definitive treatment - just temporise until they can get properly assessed. Thats not a criticism, or being against them - quite the opposite. I'm fully in favour of anything that improves peoples ability to provide first aid - be that an app, or courses. I've seen plenty patients surviving cardiac arrest completely undamaged thanks to family/friends/colleagues/randomers that had learned cpr on courses.
In terms of the legality, providing common sense is applied, there is no legal standing for action against people acting as "good sammaritans", regardless of their qualifications. It's a pretty common myth, and one that really puts people off even attempting to learn things, let alone do them! Apply a little common sense, if you're uncertain and something doesnt need done right now, then dont do it!!! But if you find someone collapsed infront of you not breathing and without a pulse, you're never going to make that situation any worse, and even if you don't do it perfectly by the textbook, anything's better than nothing.
The whole premise of basic first aid (st andrews/st John's first aid teams go well beyond this!) is to rapidly, simply assess (are they breathing, do they have a pulse, are they responsive, are they bleeding?) and provide simple skills to temporise the situation until those qualified and equipped can get there. I'd argue an app is just as useful in providing an aide to do that safely as a half-day course someone did a year ago!
That being said, I'd encourage everyone to go on as comprehensive a course as they can manage, having more knowledge and greater confidence in those skills can never be a bad thing.
I’ve done first aid training a few times with work but not sure what I would do in an emergency situation, probably just freeze! The app will, I hope keep me calm and I can then follow instructions. I totally agree that you can’t beat proper first aid training but I don’t think many people do it but everyone now does have a phone. Got to be better than nothing surely.
Dialling 999 is usually the absolute best thing you can do
There is no chance at all of being on the wrong side of the law if you act in good faith if you are a layperson.
Its a reasonableness test again. Did you act with the skill a person in your situation would be expected to have done? As understood by the mythical common person.
You would as a layperson have to do something really really stupid. Even the higher standard people with medical training are held to is really difficult to breach
<div class="bbp-reply-author">FunkyDunc
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Dialling 999 is usually the absolute best thing you can do
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as well as knowing a bit of first aid, and knowing where defribilators are located in your locality .
An app which shows all local defibs would be nice to have
I've done a 3 day first aid course, they said the litigation side of it was complete codswallop and its only applicable to qualified medical professionals. No one has ever been prosecuted for harming/injuring someone when they have been giving First Aid. They used the example of coming across a car accident, pulling someone out of their burning car to save their life but inadvertently causing them to become paralysed due to having a serious back injury. What you do, watch them burn to death because there is a slim chance they may have a broken back? You are duty bound to do what you can to save their life
Dialling 999 is the best thing to do, but you still need to know how to give First Aid until they arrive, especially if its serious. I was quite surprised when they said the next level of the course is what paramedics complete.
There is another app we should all have on our phones "where am I". One click and you get the nearest postcode, grid ref, road name etc. (I think there are two versions by the same name, I tried both and chose the one I liked.
Is there an official defib app?
P.S The only bit of info regarding administering First Aid was that you need to ask the patient if its OK, no is no, you can't force them to accept your help. But if they are unconscious, or say no but then deteriorate and become unconscious, crack on as it is your duty to try and help.
St John's Ambulance is an excellent app.
& regarding the litigation, if someone is unconscious it is presumed in the eyes of the law they want your help. Only if they expressly say do not help me would you need to worry.
As a side note, something you're not told, CPR is tiring & breaks ribs so be prepared for that too, & always phone 999 as priority.
I was quite surprised when they said the next level of the course is what paramedics complete.
I bet you were a 3 year degree seems a bit extreme for a fist aid course.
Yep, the whole litigation things is a red herring.
As said above get some proper first aid training, it's great. If time or finances say no, then I don't see the app as being anything other than a good thing.
I did assume I'd get a kicking over that post, hence the "(possibly)", and yes, I fully agree, the chance of being sued is low. I still stand by what I said, though: I’d strongly suggest booking on a course rather than just downloading an app.
Just selectively quoting two bits from Spooky's post above for comment:
No one has ever been prosecuted for harming/injuring someone when they have been giving First Aid.
Partially - no-one has been successfully prosecuted. There have been numerous attempts over the years - a friend and First Aid instructor had a case taken against him for broken ribs while administering CPR. Yes, it was thrown out, but an ambulance-chasing lawyer did take it on and it caused my friend enough of stress to make him quit his business. I'd rather not go through any of that, even if I'm pretty sure it'd go nowhere.
You are duty bound to do what you can to save their life
No you're not - there is no criminal liability for failing to act in the UK. There may be an ethical compulsion, but there is no legal compulsion. That's not to say I wouldn't help if I could (and I have), but there is no 'duty bound'.
And selectively quoting ecampbell's post as well:
Most first aid courses don’t “qualify” you do anything as such. They don’t qualify you to give advice, or provide any definitive treatment – just temporise until they can get properly assessed.
They qualify you to provide First Aid, defined as "the immediate, temporary care of the ill or injured". You come out of a proper course with a proper certificate, that's a qualification. It's not, as Drac puts it, the full degree, but it's a certificate of competency to deliver those basics.
I'd just back up my original statement with this: Medical Protection UK's notes on the SARAH 2015 act - though targeted at medical professionals acting in emergency situations - still say "Work within the confines of your expertise and training, except in a critical emergency" . Hell, I'm not trying to put anyone off downloading an app, but if I'm being really picky when I'm down on the deck (and granted, I might not be able to afford to be picky...) and if time is of the essence, I'd rather have someone help me who looks like they've some training than someone who has to open an app to be able to do a body check. A two day course isn't much to do and will teach you the basics - and agreed, most First Aid really is just the basics - way better than any app can.
It’s not, as Drac puts it, the full degree, but it’s a certificate of competency to deliver those basics.
I think you need to read what I was replying to. The claim of the next stage is what paramedics do.
It’s not, as Drac puts it, the full degree, but it’s a certificate of competency to deliver those basics.
I think you need to read what I was replying to. The claim of the next stage is what paramedics do.
I know, I was agreeing with you!
It's a bragging claim by whoever took the course given we do basic first aid too.
It’s a bragging claim by whoever took the course given we do basic first aid too.
It comes under the same category of bull as the Community First Responder who told me a Paramedic was "just a First Aider who can give a couple of drugs as well". That said, he was also a First Responder who got into hot water for buying himself a green jumpsuit with badges and stickering his white Octavia Estate up to look like a rapid response unit...
Oh yes! Heard of him and he pops back up now and again
Unfortunately there are always idiots out there that will make a claim when they think they can get money out of it. If he didnt have his ribs broken he'd be dead! Good quality cpr nearly always does, unless they have really bendy bones! It wouldn't matter how highly qualified you are, those people will still try it on sadly.
They qualify you to provide First Aid, defined as “the immediate, temporary care of the ill or injured”. You come out of a proper course with a proper certificate, that’s a qualification. It’s not, as Drac puts it, the full degree, but it’s a certificate of competency to deliver those basics.
Technically yes, in reality no. I did both half day "first aid at work" courses, and the full st andrews ambulance course in my student days. Both provide certificates, but there's a world of difference in what your're taught, by whom your're taught, and the standard you have to meet to get that certificate! In a legal sense, unless you're employed/volunteering as a first aider in some way, I don't see how any court could hold you to any "competancy" as it's simply too varied and unregulated.
The MPS statement doesn't really apply, as really any emergency situation is beyond the "expertise and training" of non healthcare professionals. However the "except in critical emergancy" applies just as well to the general public as it does to medically qualified people - in a dire emergency you do what you can.
You're right, I'd want the most qualified, experienced person helping me (ideally have my accident outside the front door of a level 1 trauma centre!!!) But if there's nobody else around, Joe Bloggs with his app is a hell of a lot better than nothing.
There is a defibrillator app. I was shown it on a first aid course.