 You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Would it be safe/right/normal for a landlord to insist that a tenant double lock the front door to a rented property with people inside, thus requiring you to need a key to escape in the event of a fire. She insists on it being double locked at all times.
The door has 2 locks, one standard yale type thing that you can use to exit the building without needing a key, then a second mortis lock that you can lock from either side.
In my opinion it's quite dangerous. Imagine being trapped in the hallway without your house keys unable to escape because the door's locked!
I can understand doing it for security when everyone's out, but what's the official position when there are people at home?
Muchos thanks
Landlord cannot insist on anything like that once the property is rented under a contract.
Do it and leave the key in the door? Or keep key with you? I've always locked door once I'm in.
Hammy is correct.
I can ask my tenants to look after the place, it's up to them to do so....
Fire regulations are also guidelines, and can be risk vs cost traded as a landlord.
they can insist but tbh its so unenforceable wTF is the point them asking
if you dont want to do this then dont how will they ever know? Its not like they live with you and can check
Just to clarify she's a live-in landlord and there are 4 other tenants
then I imagine she can insist and /or make your life hell if you dont do as she says whatever the law says
On a HMO most local authorities insist that all the locks have to be internal thumb turns, ie no key. For fire safety. Local fire officer told me that almost every active fireman will tell you they have at least once found a dead body just inside the front door.
What's the layout of the building? Shared house or a block with communal areas? Very different rules for both.
Very old shared house with non-working sash windows covered at this time of year by batoned internal wooden shutters to keep the cold out. So not the quickest alternative escape route IMO.
What's the layout of the building? Shared house or a block with communal areas? Very different rules for both.
Not for external exit doors. The external doors in any rented property should have thumb turns.
Internal doors is a different minefield..
thumb turns on all external doors, along with working fire alarm,fire doors and door closers on hmo,s.
Isn't a private rental with 4 tenants a hmo? Sounds a safety nightmare, I would move.
If you're a lodger in her house then I imagine the rules are different. If you don't like it I'd suggest finding somewhere else.
I think technically three or more is a HMO. But local authorities decide at what level they want them licensed. Eg here we have 5 or more tenants on 3 or more floors require a licence. Below that do not require licences or inspection, but Landlords should adhere to the same regulations. EG if there was a fire and the property did not meet HMO standards which lead to death or injury, then the landlord can be prosecuted.
So I would advise thumb turns.
If its lodgings, then its beyond my area of knowledge, but I think the poster above was probably correct - there are no rules...
Cool thanks guys
Toys and project have hit the nail on the head.
Mortice lock with thumb turn is the best she can hope for.
Internal fire doors need thumb turn exits too for rented properties but I'm not 100% if it's a lodger house.
(14.5 years as a locksmith)
ring local council housing office tomorrow and ask for a survey, person with a clipboard will cal out, and oh, a lot of times and tell the landlord what she needs to do and it will be enforced, and thats from experience, and hopefully she will have electric and gas safety records, mains wired fire alarms, non flamable furniture if rented as furnished , etc etc.
Time to move
Sounds like you're lodging therefore there are no rules. What the landlady says goes. Local authorities have no powers in this area.
If you don't like your landlady's rules then move out.
Or break glass with key in it.
If you don't like your landlady's rules then move out.
Yep move as any council type involvement will make life shit. But for the benefit of the others and future tenants maybe call the council after you leave.
T'missus who has done a lot of work in housing thinks ( but is not certain) that the fact its a live in landlady means it is not an HMO assuming you all share a kitchen. there are regulations regarding fire safety in rental properties even if not an HMO but again live in landlady means there are differences.
Your council should have a website that has this sort of info on it - check. also you could ask the local fire brigades safety officer.
Its certainly unsafe practice tho and I wouldn't live there. Suggest you put in a safer lock ie break glass bolt or turnbutton?
Local fire officer told me that almost every active fireman will tell you they have at least once found a dead body just inside the front door.
😕
Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside. Police told us not to leave the key in it at night because burglars can reach through the letterbox. I try to keep the key on the rack all the time but my wife doens't.
Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside. Police told us not to leave the key in it at night because burglars can reach through the letterbox. I try to keep the key on the rack all the time but my wife doens't.
Nasty isn't it.
In the student houses we have two thumb turns, one in the normal place and one at the bottom of the door, so they can close that at night and it is far enough away from the letterbox because of that.
I actually don't like that because I reckon they would forget in an emergency and could pass out before they work it out. Autopilot says go for the lock at chest height and out. I like the commercial ones where when the fire alarm goes off all the doors unlock.
I guess it is balancing fire safety with burglerising. As a landlord I'd rather deal with a burglarising than a dead tenant. As it stands it isn't my choice anyway, I just do what the LA require me to do by their fire safety standards.
Fit a different lock?Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside. Police told us not to leave the key in it at night because burglars can reach through the letterbox. I try to keep the key on the rack all the time but my wife doens't
Fit a different lock?
If its yale type then its a tenner, if its a euro profile then 30-40 for a new barrel and 6 minutes to fit. If its mortice, well then you need to get a euro profile mortice lock and fit in the same hole, then just open out the key hole. Hours work tops
Interesting reading.
Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside.
A good few years ago now, it was mandated by my house insurance that I had to had a five lever mortise deadlock (or equivalent) on all exit doors, which required a key to operate from the inside. These thumb-turn things were verboten.
Typical new build upvc door. That makes it a Euro profile?
You can get thumb operated locks for those?
[i]A good few years ago now, it was mandated by my house insurance that I had to had a five lever mortise deadlock (or equivalent) on all exit doors, which required a key to operate from the inside. These thumb-turn things were verboten. [/i]
mine does. We don't lock the chubb on the front door when in the house though, we just use the Yale which has a thumb turn on it.
For the patio doors and back door (2 double doors plus a single) you have to use a key to lock from the inside so it's more of an issue.
You can get thumb operated locks for those?
You can just replace the Euro cylinder (and probably should, get an Avocet ABS lock in there, you can get into the standard ones with a broken biscuit).
[quote=molgrips ]Typical new build upvc door. That makes it a Euro profile?
You can get thumb operated locks for those?
Quite a few brands do them those Avocets, Mul T Lock are good too.
[img] 
[/img]
Internal fire doors need thumb turn exits too for rented properties but I'm not 100% if it's a lodger house.
So can you have a Yale and a key locked mortise deadlock?
I live in a block of 14 flats and the managing agents want to upgrade all our doors and fit mains wired fire alarms sometime in the future to comply with new regulations.
I want to rent the flat out before then so will probably get the alarms fitted and a 30minute fire door and frame but then don't want t find out the lock is the wrong type to rent out the flat?
[quote=MrSmith ]Internal fire doors need thumb turn exits too for rented properties but I'm not 100% if it's a lodger house.
So can you have a Yale and a key locked mortise deadlock?
I live in a block of 14 flats and the managing agents want to upgrade all our doors and fit mains wired fire alarms sometime in the future to comply with new regulations.
I want to rent the flat out before then so will probably get the alarms fitted and a 30minute fire door and frame but then don't want t find out the lock is the wrong type to rent out the flat?
I am an above the parapet kinda guy, so I like to contact the local authority and ask them what they want. They tend to be v helpful. You will sleep better.
It does seem that fire safety is completely in conflict with anti-break in security.
Fire safety says no keys to get out
Insurance says must use key operated lock so that a burglar can't either reach through the letterbox, break glass in the front door and reach in, or just slip the Yale lock with a credit card or strip of packing plastic (which is really easy to do),
I get your landlady's point - a good number of burglaries happen over night when people are home and with a number of your sharing the front door opening at odd times must be fairly common.
One option would be key operated bolts like [url= http://www.screwfix.com/p/yale-door-security-bolts-white-pack-of-2/79858?kpid=79858&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=CKekmYmWntACFU46GwodPwwJsg ]this[/url]. My parents have these at the top and bottom of the front door and leave the key in them. No way you could reach from the letterbox (though don't stop a glass break). Of course, once they're locked someone outside cant' get in (same problem leaving a key in the lock). In our last house we had face mounted bolts ([url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Perry-trade-NECKED-Enclosed-Plated/dp/B015FXP57Y/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1478780507&sr=8-18-spons&keywords=door+bolt&psc=1 ]something like this[/url]) but our lodgers locked each other out a few times (how do you know everyone else is home when you get back?)
I reckon the best option is a deadlocking [url= http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/products/locks_latches_and_security/nightlatches/862/yale_pbs1_2_bs36212004_nightlatch/530657?vat=1&shopping=true&gclid=COq8oY-XntACFRGeGwodT08IxA&gclsrc=aw.ds ]NightLatch[/url] can't be tripped with a card or plastic. and some sort of [url= http://www.sdslondon.co.uk/letterplates/inner-tidy-flap-280-x-80-mm.html?gclid=CPiy48yXntACFQsR0wod19oIAA ]flap on the letterbox[/url] to stop people reaching through.
My mum has Alzheimers - last time I was there she'd locked the front door and lost the key. Only other exit would be via the kitchen which is most likely place for a fire to start. I wasn't happy at all.
[quote=simons_nicolai-uk ]It does seem that fire safety is completely in conflict with anti-break in security.
Fire safety says no keys to get out
Insurance says must use key operated lock so that a burglar can't either reach through the letterbox, break glass in the front door and reach in, or just slip the Yale lock with a credit card or strip of packing plastic (which is really easy to do),
I get your landlady's point - a good number of burglaries happen over night when people are home and with a number of your sharing the front door opening at odd times must be fairly common.
One option would be key operated bolts like this. My parents have these at the top and bottom of the front door and leave the key in them. No way you could reach from the letterbox (though don't stop a glass break). Of course, once they're locked someone outside cant' get in (same problem leaving a key in the lock). In our last house we had face mounted bolts (something like this) but our lodgers locked each other out a few times (how do you know everyone else is home when you get back?)
I reckon the best option is a deadlocking NightLatch can't be tripped with a card or plastic. and some sort of flap on the letterbox to stop people reaching through.
My mum has Alzheimers - last time I was there she'd locked the front door and lost the key. Only other exit would be via the kitchen which is most likely place for a fire to start. I wasn't happy at all.
You can just fit another lock low down with a euro profile and a thumb turn inside, too far away for the letter box reachers.
I'm sure when I checked that letting to 3+unrelated tenants was HMO territory if you live there too.
It isn't an HMO because it isn't a tenancy - the landlady lives in the same property which is a specific exclusion in tenancy laws. They are lodgers and have no particular special statutory rights like a tenant would.
I would just leave, she sounds a bit nutty.
Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside. Police told us not to leave the key in it at night because burglars can reach through the letterbox.
We've had thefts in our area like that and my mother-in-law once got her handbag nicked because she left it inside her front door while she went back into the house for something.
We never leave keys at the front door.
Our back door always has the key in (and no letterbox). Sorted 🙂
Our door needs a key to unlock it from the inside. Police told us not to leave the key in it at night because burglars can reach through the letterbox.
We've had thefts in our area like that and my mother-in-law once got her handbag nicked because she left it inside her front door while she went back into the house for something.
and not just "don't leave keys in the lock" - dont leave them on a hall table where they could be hooked with a fishing rod. A friend had their car keys stolen like this and the car taken from the drive (and used in an armed robbery.....).