[Closed] Fine for refusing to complete electoral roll - wtf?

it's a fackin liberty and no mistake, guv.

(but why would you not register to vote?)

But doesn't the electoral do more than just make you able to vote? I'm sure its used for address purposes etc.

council tax

In this particular case it was due to a combination of "can't be arsed doing the paperwork at the minute", "who the hell is this random turning up asking for my personal details" and a particularly stubborn streak where government bureaucracy is concerned.

Nothing to do with council tax according to the YouGov website. It's for voter registration with a side benefit of fraud prevention.

If you feel that way, then thank your lucky stars you don't live in a country that makes it compulsory to vote. 🙂

edit: just seen I was wrong about social responsibility.

What do you have to hide? Just fill it in like every other sap does.
We're all numbers so don't go all patrick mcgoohan on us. 🙂

To be fair, if I had some scrote on my doorstep asking for personal details, they'd get short shrift at best. Sounds like a really bad practice to me.

You'll find it difficult to get good credit if you're not on the electoral roll

the councils get paid a grant for how many plebs they have living in their county, or council area, the more people they sign up, the more money they get from central governmnet for as a grant, and the more they have to waste on non essential services.

How diod you know she was from the councuil, ID can and is forged report her to the police as acting suspicious.

yeah! stick it the man! you can't make me sign a bit of paper, fascist.

I post mine back and it just seems to vanish into the same beaurocratic hole as everything else i send to them 🙁

I have not been on the electoral role for about 7 years after moving house, renting my flat out for a year and now Im back. I have no problem getting credit, still pay the council tax.

There is no particular reason why I didnt want to be on the role, just my tiny way of feeling like I can thumb my nose to big brother.I know I know they have loads more info on me but, like Fletcher said in porridge, its all about the little victories!! 🙂

The council/electoral role people keep sending reminders tho.

I also didnt fill in the last census forms either and there are no spooks camped outside tailing me 🙂

I also didnt fill in the last census forms either

You realise by doing this you forfeit any right to moan about local councils/services since government funding to local authorities is linked to population estimates.

In the last census, figures for Nottingham were about 16,000 down on what they should have been based on other estimates. That's a big chunk of funding.

They (the people door knocking, who are employee's of the council and will have two forms of ID - one of which will be their council ID) get £3.50 for each singature obtained on the form or £1.25 for every form posted through the letter box.
Stockport Council, this year will give you one more chance after the door knock or hand posting of the form to comply before the trouble starts - that's where I come in (I hate my job though).
They only go to the plebs (a technical council electoral register dept. term apparently) on the list. The non plebs read the letter that goes out with the confirmation notice, see that [b]it is a legal requirement[/b] to correct any changes from the information as noted from the previous register and return it with the correct inforation.
The information is required for a numner of reasons. The most part in our department is to cross refernce benefit claims for council tax and housing benefits, application of council tax discounts and exemptions such as Single Person Discount, 2nd home entitlements & Empty Property Discounts
We catch lots of people out. It saves the councl hundred's of thousand's of pounds each year.
Every pound saved instead of being falsley claimed is a pounnd less on somebody's council tax.
Childrens Services use it to ensure families are in the catchment area for the correct school.
The Police often apply to us for confirmation of who is resident at a property. I speak with the Organised Crime Unit at Longsight nick near weekly.
You have the option (for free) for your information to [b]not[/b] go on the publicly available register.
Why would you [i]not[/i] send the form back? It just means somebody who needs the extra cash from various departments of the council (anybody who works for the council can do it) will get some extra cash which is pad for by council tax payers anyway.
If you're concerned about how much info. is known about you, this stuff isn't the half of it.

"can't be arsed doing the paperwork at the minute"

You can imagine the sympathy most people must feel for someone who has their telly viewing disturbed by something so minor as establishing their right to vote in the nation's democratic processes .

Of course you could have done it in your own time, rather than wait for someone from the council to come round 💡

IIRC, the [i]"paperwork"[/i] required, involves giving the names of British and EU nationals and their ages. It would have probably taken several seconds of your precious time.

.

To be fair, if I had some scrote on my doorstep asking for personal details, they'd get short shrift at best. Sounds like a really bad practice to me.

Why would anyone want to live anonymously within society ?

Does [i]that[/i] sound like "a really good practice" to you ?

And if they'd get "short shrift at best", what would they get at worst ?

Haven't been on the electoral role for 5 years or so. Just ignored it each time. I specifically don't for privacy reasons. It has noticeable benefits, and I have no problem getting credit, you just normally have to provide other ID.
As for enforcing the fine, I think it's pretty rare.

mortuk2k - there is somethng very wrong with your statement or your council. I suspect the former. Are you referring the publicly available register? You can opt out of your details being public knowledge but the credt companies will still see who is on the roll. You don't get to opt out of being registered. The property you live in has to have somebody registered as owning it.
It will ultimately be searched on the land registry if all other attempts at findng the occupier/owner turns up nothing.
We do Lockter and Experian credit searches every day of the week to find absconders.

I also didnt fill in the last census forms either
You realise by doing this you forfeit any right to moan about local councils/services since government funding to local authorities is linked to population estimates

I had no idea that by filling the form that would entitled me to the right to moan about the local council or services.

Is that like saying only those people who actually vote have the right to have an opinion or moan on the current government?

Yes I know filling it in would have provided information to various organisations who could have used the information for genuine reasons. But if I had filled in the religion part of it as Klingon or whatever would that have helped them? or like some people did make false statements in it cant have helped to provide sensible information.

Oh - just sign the fession ffs

But if I had filled in the religion part of it as Klingon or whatever would that have helped them?

Yes it would actually, because by returning the form you'd have been counted, which means central government would have allocated the local authority more money. OK, only a tiny fraction, but multiply this up by all the other people who don't fill in the census form and it becomes a significant amount of money.

It's about cash not just information.

monksie - Nobody can opt out of the FULL register. It is only allowed to be viewed electronically by certain agencies(as you say) but also anyone, by going to the local council offices, or in some cases, the library. You can take hand written notes from it.

You can opt out of the EDITED register. This is the one provided to all and sundry for purposes of direct marketing, or inclusion on any of the hundreds of people tracing websites.

I think the latter was introduced after a court case? Not sure, but I think it was related to the right 'not to be found'.
Someone is registered as owning my property, but it isn't me.

When I say credit, I mean those that we have to get checked for (utilities etc.) Although BP won't deliver LPG on account of me not being on roll, which is a bit of an anomaly. I don't need finance credit.
But my reasons are not related to debt and finance, I have a personal history I'd prefer to remain as history.

All that said I am reconsidering next year as I think enough time has elapsed to come out of the woods.
Yes I know anyone can be found, but I'm not in the KGB or anything, so I'm only interested in half arsed attempts by scrotes with grudges and wannabe PI's.

Just sign the sodding register or Monksie will pay you a visit.

ok 😥

What's all this signing bits of paper nonsense? I do mine online. It takes about as long as posting this.

there's people in other parts of the world fighting and dying for the franchise, and there's people here who can't be arsed to vote.

people are wierd monkeys.

And who's to say those groups of people are mutually exclusive?

Gotta laugh at all the wannabe-anarchists.....How brave they all are!

@dobski - true, there's people from this country who can't be arsed to vote dying for the right of citizens of other countries to vote.

wierd monkeys.

And if they'd get "short shrift at best", what would they get at worst ?

Well, at worst, aliens would land and eat their brains with a spoon.

Realistically, if I thought they were fraudulent I'd call the police.

Point is, there is no -way- I'd divulge personal information to someone knocking on the door no matter how good their ID appears to be. How do I know what a genuine council ID looks like? I'd happily accept the form and mail it into the council (or do it online), but hand it to some eejit knocking on the door? No chance.

Haven't been on the electoral role for 5 years or so. Just ignored it each time. I specifically don't for privacy reasons. It has noticeable benefits..

Like what?

Also have you tried for [i]proper[/i] credit (e.g a mortgage or home improvement load)?

I deliver the electoral roll envelope thingies. Its quite a good way of earning a bit of extra cash (work quickly and it equates to ~£20 per hour).

After a few weeks all the nice roads I deliver to have handed theirs in, but I still have to then deliver a second envelope (a reminder) to people who have forgotten to send it off, or haven't got round to it. The council estates and run down roads where I deliver to, probably about 80% of houses there end up with a reminder.

Then if people still haven't sent it off, you have to go round and knock on their doors and ask them why they think they're so special (in so many words). However, because I've gone off to university, my mum is actually doing the knocking on doors thing for me this year.

So, please don't be rude to my mum 😀

And also, by blabbing all over the internet that you don't send it off, may give people the idea that you live in a council estate or equally run down area.

Realistically, if I thought they were fraudulent I'd call the police.

Ah, that old scam..........false council IDs to find out the names and ages of British/EU nationals.

BTW, those who object to being on the electoral register could always try claiming they are "idiots".

I use of course the term [i]idiot[/i] in its original classical Greek sense :

[i]"In ancient Greece, the inventors of democracy set up a law that required every person to vote, regardless of who they voted for. If anyone was found not voting, the person would be publicly marked and [u][b]labeled an idiot[/b][/u], someone who thought their own personal needs trumped those of the society around them, and over time, the word "idiot" has evolved into today's usage.[/i]

And some US states exempt "idiots" from voting ....... perhaps you could establish a precedence here ?

[i]New Mexico Penal Code Article VII, section 1 :

Every citizen of the United States, who is over the age of twenty-one years, and has resided in New Mexico twelve months, in the county ninety days, and in the precinct in which he offers to vote thirty days, next preceding the election, [b][u]except idiots[/u][/b], insane persons and persons convicted of a felonious or infamous crime unless restored to political rights, shall be qualified to vote at all elections for public officers.[/i]

AFAIK you are legally obliged to submit your return to the electoral register; the form tends to come out in September/October every year to cover people moving house, so that in theory it's never more than a year out of date.

When the form arrives, if it's correct, just sign it & stick it back in the post, in the prepaid envelope it comes with. Or if that's too difficult, some councils have caught up with the 21st Century and allow you to do it online. There really is no reason why you shouldn't do this - as said before, if you're not on the electoral roll, getting credit [i]can[/i] be a little more difficult.

If you don't do it, then apart from breaking a minor law for which you [i]may[/i] get a fine, if they can be bothered with you, you will not be entitled to vote during the next 12 month period. Pretty important to me, but I guess some people just don't want to be part of the democratic process.

Fine, that's up to them, but I don't want to hear them moaning about national or local government policies that they don't like

I do have an element of sympathy> Now why would I want credit? gas and electricty don't care. Who else am I to be worried about.
More to the point all those wars were fought for the freedom to chose. I often chose not to vote as I don't agree with any of the options. But then I don't always agree with the whole principle of allowing so many others to vote.Of course my principle change according to circumstance, but then thats what my grandfather fought for. i will not do anything face to face either. i go into the office and make a fuss. Much more fun and makes the offices more useful.

Now why would I want credit? gas and electricty don't care. Who else am I to be worried about.

Mortgage is the most obvious one. Providers always ask you where you have lived over the past X years and then check that against electoral registers and any bad debts at those addresses. If you were not on the register at any prior address you list then it will damage your credit rating which, depending on how your other circumstances score, may mean no mortgage (especially these days when they are being extra careful).

You might hit the same thing for any other loan: home improvement loan, business startup, car finance, even just some credit cards.

i know! its a disgrace isn't it. I had to write my name in a box on a form. It literally took seconds of my life that i could, no SHOULD have spent doing something else. Its health and safety gone mad!

Write your name? That's nothing I had to tick a box to say the details hadn't changed and THEN sign my name - you lucky bastard!

So, you don't want to confirm the names and addresses of residents at your property in case aliens come and eat your brains - but you probably have a Facebook page ? Its a mad world.

P.S ernie lynch where did you get that quote ? Casting my mind back to my Classics undergrad - I thought only the aristocracy voted in ancient greek democracy e.g about 1 in 100 of the population the rest were dirt poor illiterate or slaves. But I accept that t'internet might know better.

Its alright - if you don't fill in your form they'll probably just use RIPA to authorise a VoPo to come round and rifle through your bins in search of your name, and then add your 'crime' to your personal file in the Ministerium...

if you don't vote you don't get to complain about the rules.

i will not do anything face to face either. i go into the office and make a fuss.

Eh? What do you do, stand with your back to the office staff, shout at the wall and show your bum ?

Although project is right that local authorities (a.k.a. districts and counties) are funded by government by a grant called the Rate Support Grant the Electoral Roll plays no part in this. The amount each council receives is based on the head of population in the district or county but this figure comes from the (national) census data, which is held and maintained by the Office for National Statistics (ONS). The Electoral Roll has no direct roll to play in the census.

FYI Failure to complete the (national) census form in March 2011 will also result in a fine!

mattsccm, what on earth are you alluding to when you say,

But then I don't always agree with the whole principle of allowing so many others to vote.

I take it you don't agree that all citizens should have the right to vote (admittedly allowing for a very few exceptions)? Who shall we disenfranchise first then? You maybe?

Ah, that old scam..........false council IDs to find out the names and ages of British/EU nationals.

BTW, those who object to being on the electoral register could always try claiming they are "idiots".

So you can't see any problems with "excuse me sir, how many people live here?" Guess you're lucky enough never to have been burgled. I wasn't objecting to being on the electoral roll, I was objecting to the soliciting of personal data on the doorstep. But hey, don't let small things like 'facts' get in the way of a good troll, eh?

Even if in this case it's not particularly sensitive data (you could get similar results from looking in a phone book and watching a house for a few hours), I think it's irresponsible to be getting people into the habit of blindly giving out information when asked. How many people are scammed daily by people ringing up and pretending to be banks or some such? The official organisations tell you never to give out information, then I get my bank cold-calling me and asking me security questions - how do I know they are who they say they are?

I've no issues with providing information for electoral or other purposes. I have a problem with organisations encouraging people to get used to giving up information without first checking who they're giving to. It's a really dangerous habit to be nurturing.

"But doesn't the electoral do more than just make you able to vote? I'm sure its used for address purposes etc. "

It does IMPROVE your credit scoring and help you get a mortgage.

. I wasn't objecting to being on the electoral roll, I was objecting to the soliciting of personal data on the doorstep. But hey, don't let small things like 'facts' get in the way of a good troll, eh?

I can't see the bit where I said that you objected to being on the electoral roll. My comment was purely concerning your suggestion that you might call the police. But hey, don't let small things like 'facts' get in the way........

.

ernie lynch where did you get that quote ? Casting my mind back to my Classics undergrad - I thought only the aristocracy voted in ancient greek democracy e.g about 1 in 100 of the population the rest were dirt poor illiterate or slaves. But I accept that t'internet might know better.

Yeah I'm sure not everyone had a vote in ancient Greek democracy - slaves etc. In the same way as it would be factual incorrect to say that today everyone has a vote in the UK - prisoners and foreign national living here don't for example.

But I'm perfectly happy for you to correct the quote. Either way, all dictionaries seem to agree that the word "idiot" originates from ancient Athenians who didn't vote. Certainly the Oxford Dictionary which I have before me and was published in 1934 long before "t'internet" (family heirloom) suggests that.

foreign national living here

Some of us do 🙂

......and some don't.

So, you don't want to confirm the names and addresses of residents at your property in case aliens come and eat your brains - but you probably have a Facebook page ? Its a mad world.

Being on Facebook doesn't automatically mean your entire details are given away. They only know the details you put on there.

......and some don't.

Think most don't to be fair...I was only being obstreporous. Us Micks do though...something to do with the years of subjugation and persecution...yadda yadda yadda 🙄

Have been following the thread all day and tbh, I can't see the OP's problem. The electoral roll is important in a functioning society - sometimes, you just have to do the right thing - and sometimes, there's legislation to ensure you do the right thing. I guess the OP has anarchist fantasies or something. I have no problem being on it. You see it allows me to go out every few years and partake in democracy - cast my vote - if you want to opt out, then fair enough, but don't whine about it when someone comes after you.

Being on Facebook doesn't automatically mean your entire details are given away. They only know the details you put on there.

I suspect anybody with half a brain could find out a lot more about me from the web than is on the electoral roll.

Well, unless something has changed in the last couple of years, being OFF the electoral role means you will never be called for jury duty, though much the same can be accomplished just by ticking the 'I'm over 70 and therefore senile' box on the form*. 😛

*Which would suggest completing the registration on-line is a better method of lying about your age as the council official [i]may,if they are observant[/i] realise you don't quite look that old...

Cool, bring on the fines, not registered for 5 or more years, in fact it might even be longer.

There's been enough chances for them to fine or arrest me.
Guess they don't really care that much about my lack of opinion.

If they don't know who lives there, and they don't know your name because you wont give it...

How are they supposed to issue a court summons to fine you?

😀