Why do you think you have to cycle everywhere?
Because I would have to cycle if I didn't drive. The first bus within 2 miles of my house is 11:00 which is great of you start work at 12:00. And no buses at weekends so I either cycle or just don't go anywhere. And because the places I go are all at least 10 miles away I wouldn't get much done by cycling everywhere, therefore I happily use my car - everyday.
And because the places I go are all at least 10 miles away I wouldn’t get much done by cycling everywhere, therefore I happily use my car – everyday.
Yes, so cycling's clearly not appropriate for you, but no one was suggesting you should be cycling everywhere!
You are very fortunate to be able to live that close
I'm incredibly lucky, because I've been cycling to work for 25 years, living in two different countries, three different towns, five different houses and working for a dozen different employers in around 20 different locations ranging between 4 and 12 miles from home...
This is nothing to do with my current personal circumstances. I'm just pointing out that pedalling a traditional bike around Edinburgh does not require a huge leap of imagination, as was suggested.
I think we all know that some people have commuting journeys that you can't do on a bicycle. We all understand that you won't get more UK residents cycling just by building cycle paths, and it needs a lot of spending and joined up planning and policies. However, going back to the OP's original point, the reason that we don't have modern, sustainable transport infrastructure that facilitates active travel is simply because we have no ambition to even start doing something about it. I'm not having a go personally at anyone about that, even though I think it is a disappointing state of affairs. If the majority of voters just aren't interested in changing things, that's the way it is going to be.
You could hardly come up with a better example of the situation than a cycling forum where people are coming up with lots of reasons why cycling isn't possible!
its not lucky to live within muscle power of work. Its about choices. 45 years I have been working for only a few months of that time have I not commuted by bike. Because its important to me to be able to do so so that is the choices I have made.
No one is forced into a car commute. Its always a choice
. Its always a choice
Right, so people choose to have jobs that don't pay for a place to live which is close to where the jobs are. They choose to spend hours of their lives commuting because they really want to. They choose to have accommodation in the cities driven up in coat by people they have no control over. That really isn't joined up thinking.
Neither is the idea we can copy what the Dutch did even though nothing about the two places is similar.
It isn't about will, or money. At the end it's about figuring out what to do and how to make it work.
even though I think it is a disappointing state of affairs. I
Me too. We just disagree on the why. I don't think it has anything to do with "will" it's about knowledge and ideas.
You could hardly come up with a better example of the situation than a cycling forum where people are coming up with lots of reasons why cycling isn’t possible!
That's just common sense. If you want to reduce cars (which was the OPs original point) cycling obviously isn't the answer if cyclists are telling you it isn't!
Yes cromolly - its allways a choice. Its all about your priorities. ~To me its very important to live close to work. So thats what I do. It means I live in a flat and it means I have turned down jobs.
Go on - please tell me how people are forced into commutes rather than choosing to commute .
Yes cromolly – its allways a choice. Its all about your priorities
It is, and for many people stuff like you and your partner both having a fulfilling job that doesn't leave you miserable depressed is quite important, or not forcing your kids to leave school they love when they have a precarious mental state, all that kind of thing. No-one WANTS to commute miles by car, almost everyone hates it. They do it because they feel they don't have other options. You over-simplify far too much.
All it would take is political will and time.
Another over-simplification. It would take a HUGE political and social change, not to mention a shitload of money. Starting in the 1970s would have been far easier than now with car ownership so low and traffic volume a fraction of what it is now. We've had 40 more years of ploughing tarmac everywhere and making business parks miles from anywhere. It could happen but it really won't be simple.
Go on – please tell me how people are forced into commutes rather than choosing to commute .
I would but you're in your cocky 'I'm always right' mode so I'll only get angry when you flatly deny all the points I'll make even though you've never been in the situation yourself.
Molgrips - I simply cannot see anyone ever being force to commute. Its always a choice. Who is shoving a gun in your back and telling you you have to spend ages in a car getting to work? Certainly you may not want to take the other choices but there is always another choice other than spending ridiculous sums of money and time commuting to work.
so go on - I am listening. Explain why and where comuting by car is essential. Its not. Its always a choice. You even say this yourself
They do it because they feel they don’t have other options.
– I am listening. Explain why and where comuting by car is essential. Its not. Its always a choice.
A) no, you aren't. I already gave several reasons why people don't have a choice but to commute. If you have had the privilege of being able to turn down jobs that didn't suit you then recognise what a lucky individual you are. And that not everyone has your good fortune.
Also I never said by car. Not everyone who has a long commute has that privilege either.
B) if you cannot understand why people might have less options than you, meaning they cannot choose jobs where they like, or afford to live where the jobs are then nothing I say will help you. Get out and ask people yourself. Be prepared to be shocked.
That’s just common sense. If you want to reduce cars (which was the OPs original point) cycling obviously isn’t the answer if cyclists are telling you it isn’t!
Exactly. I love cycling but I am not cycling 40 miles a day to get to work, get to shops etc,. in all weathers and I simply do not have the time. Unfortunately the same goes for buses as well unless the service was changed to actually run at times when people needed it.
Go on – please tell me how people are forced into commutes rather than choosing to commute .
I work in marine services, offshore and on a global basis.
How can I avoid my commute?
Please tell, as you obviously have the answers.
cromolyolly - you have not described a single situation where people HAVE to commute. Please spell it out for me. Its always a choice
gobuchal - OK I should have bar said the folk who have a moving place of work - but you do not commute every day by car to the same place nd of course no one is forcing you to do tyhat job.
You have always taken decisions that lead you into a situation where you have to commutte. Its always the result of decisions you have taken
Its not my good fortune I live near to my work. Its the result of decisions I have taken.
I'm somewhere in the middle on globulchul and tj.
I have to use my car as I have a moving workplace, often for half a day. It can't be avoided - I train teachers at thier school and local Greenspace.
That said, when I am in the office, I do ride most of the time. I'm happier and healthier for it.
What my objection to is the default assumption that everyone wants to drive, or that it is the only option. The master plan of the area I started the thread about has not only encouraged more car journeys, it's actively 'blocking' walking and cycling to school, or the parents getting a bus or cycling to work.
Not all of us can bus/train/cycle/walk to work, school or shops. But for those who want to, or indeed could in the future, we ought to hugely support them in doing that. And we should provide the infrastructure and generous incentives to do so.
Enough of the whataboutery.
gobuchal – OK I should have bar said the folk who have a moving place of work – but you do not commute every day by car to the same place nd of course no one is forcing you to do tyhat job.
No I don't commute everyday by car.
No one is forcing me to do that job but someone has to do it. Also, leaving school in the 1980s and living in NE England, there wasn't a huge choice of decent employment opportunities.
I don't understand your logic? If we all moved back to the City Centres, then they would become even more crowded and bigger shitholes than they are now. The property prices would also increase, as the supply became even smaller.
You are extremely lucky, you have managed to own 2 properties in the centre of Edinburgh and be able to pay for them on an average salary. (I think that's your situation, from reading from your other posts about being a landlord etc. Apologies if I'm wrong.)
Would it be possible for a young couple to purchase the flat you live in, with your current income, today? Edinburgh is one of the most expensive places in the UK, outside of London.
The flat I live in and paid for ( the other one is my other halfs) would be expensive verging on unaffordable if I bought it now on the same pay grade as I had when I bought it. However there are still places within pedal power of my workplace that I could buy at the pay grade I had when moving to Edinburgh
Its not about luck. Its about the choices you make. I choose to work in a profession where work is always widely available. I chose to live in a small urban flat so I can cycle to work rather than the house in the country I could easily afford ( and have money left over) but then I would need to commute by car so I won't do that move.
However there are still places within pedal power of my workplace that I could buy at the pay grade I had when moving to Edinburgh
I bet they are in absolutely charming areas.
Because people with mobility issues can’t ride bikes!
I can cycle with less pain than experienced if walking. RA made a mess of my foot joints at 30yrs. I was in a manual wheelchair for a number of years yet could cycle 8 miles to the shops and back once a week. I even taped an elbow crutch to the top tube so I could at least hobble around the store if there wasnt a customer wheelchair. Cycling helped me maintain some mobility and fought depression/prevented me from losing it all. FFWD 20 yrs, Mrs Rider couldnt safely manage a bike (migratory osteolysis/vertebral weakness) but could a recumbent trike. Now its unfortunately gotten so bad that she can neither drive or ride anything, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is no one size fits all and often HPVs can maintain and/or encourage mobility where it would be totally lost if automatically deferred to to the car. Car-culture is arguably the single most disabling state of affairs as it encourages the able-bodied to be less-able. For the vast majority of short journeys we have become both mentally and physically dependent upon what is essentially a disability wagon for the able-bodied.
within pedal power of my workplace
Maybe for you but probably not for the average person. I'm guessing you would consider <20 miles within "pedal power"?
NOt too bad actually gobuchal. Better than where I live was when I moved in. I just checked. Right now there are 18 properties I could afford on my own on a band 6 salary within a mile of where I live now. couple of quite nice flats. My flat would now be unaffordable for 2 reasons - I have upgraded it massively and the area has been gentrified. People where horrified that I moved to where I am 25 years ago saying what a rough area it is
Edit - gobuchal. 7 miles is my maximum commute by bike
The flat I live in and paid for ( the other one is my other halfs) would be expensive verging on unaffordable
Guess it is all that ivory pushing the price up.
couple of quite nice flats.
Come on then, let's see them!
We have been looking at new homes over the last year.
We went to one estate by David Wilson Homes. Apart from the house being boxy and horrible, the estate didn’t have footpaths ! We asked why not and they tried to side step it by saying that every house has parking for at least 2 cars!
cromolyolly – you have not described a single situation where people HAVE to commute. Please spell it out for me. Its always a choice
Yeah, it’s a choice between having a job that pays enough to live on, or not, because the town I live I has very low unemployment, and most available jobs are either basic shelf-stacking, or else jobs that I have zero experience and/or qualifications for. I worked in print/design for nearly forty years, there are no longer any jobs of that nature locally, so I was very lucky to get the job I now have, that’s fifteen miles away. Previously, I was very fortunate in that I could walk or cycle to work, that option is no longer open to me. I’m not doing a shit job just to prove your point.
NOt too bad actually gobuchal. Better than where I live was when I moved in.
I have upgraded it massively and the area has been gentrified.
So this is what happens.
Crap area becomes desirable because of the cost of another City Centre location, only a short distance away, becomes far too expensive for most people.
"Young Professionals" move into the area, which pushes the prices up and pushes the original inhabitants out. Prices rise further as they upgrade their property and the area becomes gentrified. This area then is un-affordable for most people but the people who moved in at the start of the process are fine and wonder why people don't want to live in a City Centre.
Rinse and repeat.
FWIW - When i did have a regular commute, I used the train. Cycled to the station, which was only 2 miles away and I had a cheeky trail that kept me mainly traffic free. However, TBH if I had to face the narrow roads, with their heavy density of commuter traffic, then I doubt I would of. Absolute death traps.
The commute was awful, crowded and very expensive. I did not want to do it.
The other option would of been a 2 bed flat in the East End of London, with it's high crime, pollution and absolutely miserable existence. It still would of required a 20 mile round trip on a bike and we all know what fun that is in London.
Your statement that it's all down to "personal choice" is nonsense.
I suppose I could of pushed the boat out and bought something like this £400k East London
You chose to live in London. You chose to do that job. No one forced you. Both me and the missus had jobs / job offers in London. We knew living in London would not provide us with the type of living we wanted so we chose to move out of london
Most people in the UK live in cities.
count zero - you have chosen not to move close to your work!
you have chosen not to move close to your work!
As others have said, we can't all choose to be near to work as there are a finite number of houses near to the workplace and a finite number of jobs that are near to people's current house.
Unless you are proposing some nationwide job/house swapping scheme you are really not getting the reality of this.
Nope - its you that are mistaking choices that you don't want to make as no choice. There is still choice in all this. No one has you at the point of a gun saying you must do this commute
Many folk in m y position would have moved out to the 'burbs or even to one of the satellite towns so as to have a house and garden rather than a flat. Thats their choice. Mine was to stay in the flat so I didn't have to commute by car
You chose to live in London. You chose to do that job. No one forced you.
You're familiar with the term 'Hobson's choice' aren't you? Perhaps he had no other options?
I've worked in Bristol a few times which is a fair commute from Cardiff. It's a shit drive and cost (at the time) a fortune due to the bridge. It was also a shit job. But it was the only one I could find.
Stop glossing over the difficulties people can face in life. It doesn't help your argument. Your arguing tone on here is destructive and you've got me arguing with you despite being on the same side.
Molgrips – I simply cannot see anyone ever being force to commute.
See this is the problem. You can't see it, because of your experiences. So others are giving you their experiences and trying to explain how they ended up having to do something crap. But you are dismissing their experiences out of hand.
Can't you see how this is going to piss people off?
I was forced to commute because my meagre savings had run out and I needed a job to keep a roof over my head. You'll probably tell me I should've given up an IT career and worked in a shop or something. That would have been severely detrimental to my mental health.
On top of that - if I have to give up my skilled career and let my skills lapse; and a company 40 miles away cannot get the skills it needs, that means that the UK has lost both skills and productivity. This is why efficient transport is so vital for an economy - it gets the skills to where they are needed.
Your flat denial of any of this exposes your ignorance of the situation real people face, and of economics. You need to listen, not preach.
No other options he wanted to take
I am just a bit frustrated as people are confusing what they want with what they must have.
Its this attitude that makes me despair. Even on a cycling forum that utilty cycling is of no use and that car ownership and commuting by car are essentials not choices.
Again - who is forcing you to make the choices that mean you commute by car? Where is the loaded gun?
Its the "having to do something crap" thats the issue. they chose to do it. No one forced them. Anyway getting in that situation is still a matter of choices you have made. Same as the reason I do not face these difficulties is not a matter of luck but a matter of the choices I have made.
Meanwhile in other news my heart has been lifted by just witnessing two groups of school kids (young to mid teenagers) cycling with escort front and back in Central London - one group didn't even have hi viz bibs on 👍
Mologrips - others need to listen. I am listening to what you say and nothing is an imperative - every reason you have given for commuting is a result of choices you have made. Thats my frustration with this. None of you are actually listening to what I say just trying to prove me wrong rather than trying to understand my point.
the choice you make in your life define the path you go down and where you end up. YOu may not want to take different choices for a whole load of very good reasons but its still a matter of choice.
Again – who is forcing you to make the choices that mean you commute by car? Where is the loaded gun?
He has already explained the loaded gun of no money and mental health worries etc or does it literally need to be someone frog marching you with an actual leathal. Weapon. You are just being pedantic to the point where you have lost creditability because you are insisting that because something is possible it is as valid a choose as any and every other choice. Just like the argument that global warming may not be significantly man made doesn't mean it is an option with equal weight. I am sure you will now argue that now where did you explicitly state that your choice was was as valid as other choices for other people, just that it was available, even if unrealistic.
You are like Teresa May. No compromise and don't see anything from any angle other than your own
I am sure you will now argue that now where did you explicitly state that your choice was was as valid as other choices for other people, just that it was available, even if unrealistic.
Thats exactly the point. There are always choices to avoid the car commute. You may rule those choices out for perfectly valid reasons. However you have still chosen a path not been forced into one.
Mologrips – others need to listen.
We are listening - I'm listening, that's why I'm addressing your points. You aren't listening to me. I understand your point (it's a very basic one, yes of course we voluntarily accept distant jobs) and I'm saying that it's not useful, because it doesn't address our needs as humans. You appear to be dismissing the reasons people do these things.
I am just a bit frustrated as people are confusing what they want with what they must have.
And you are painting the former as trivial. You're grossly oversimplifying the issue, apparently purely so you can wave your willy around.
There are always choices to avoid the car commute.
Which are often intolerable.
the choice you make in your life define the path you go down and where you end up
To suggest that luck has nothing to do with it? That's the kind of thing that Tories say.
I was very lucky to get 4 years worth of work in my career in city when I had the opportunity to move, so I cycled or walked to work. That was pure luck.
You keep telling us that you don't understand other people very well. This is one of those times.
Meanwhile in other news my heart has been lifted by just witnessing two groups of school kids (young to mid teenagers) cycling with escort front and back in Central London – one group didn’t even have hi viz bibs on
Tell me more Dickyboy. I'm working with some projects trying to encourage this. I'm regularly walking with school groups (across Glasgow this morning).
You are now getting it. Its the choices you make in your life that lead you into the situations that require a car commute. YOu may not see them as choices because you have ruled them out.
I chose to work in a profession where work is always available on permanent contracts. You chose a different path. That choice led you to the position of commuting to Bristol.
I ( and my other half) both chose to reject high paying work that we were working in in London. a large part of making that choice was about commuting. We would have made a LOT more money but we chose a path of less money for a what to us is a higher quality of living.
Its not about willy waving at all. Its about trying to show an alternative mindset that shows that car commuting is a choice or a product of a series of choices.
Its about trying to show an alternative mindset that shows that car commuting is a choice or a product of a series of choices.
Yes, this is obvious, and I accept it, but what YOU'RE not getting is that they aren't always free choices. And as such, people cannot necessarily be criticised for them.
People force by previous circumstances into shit jobs with long commutes already feel crap about it. You're essentially blaming them, which may or may not be accurate but it's unhelpful, miserable and shitty.
Do you tell alcoholics that their problems are the result of choices they've made and they just need to make different ones? That would be equally accurate but equally stupid.
I chose to work in a profession where work is always available on permanent contracts.
So you just decided you were going to do it, woke up, wandered in to the first place you found and told 'em you'd chosen to work for them and everything was unicorns and roses?
I really don't know where to start. Everything is a choice when you have choices. Do you really believe anyone would choose to work in sports directs or Amazon's warehouses? If the answer is yes, then I am begging you to go work there for a month and while you are pissing in bottles with your co-workers so you don't lose a moment of productivity you can explain to them all the choices they have.
I'll just relate an off-topic but relevant thing:. Most people who have any degree of success tend to massively overestimate the degree to which they made it hapoen, and massively downplay the role others and dumb luck have.
If your answer is what does that have to do with anything, you are missing the point entirely.
Just in case you think I missed your question - people can't live where they work for a variety of reasons - needs of their spouses, kids, parents, where the work is, where the living is affordable. As I said though, nothing I say is going to penetrate your dogmatic belief, so go live in others shoes for a while. I've had the privilege of observing them and it will teach you about the world in ways that nothing else will.
You are right about one thing though - ultimately it is about choices, trouble is the choices aren't necessarily made by the people affected, nor are they made in their best interests. It wasn't the people looking for housing in cities that chose to enact measures that resulted in people speculating in property and leaving empty houses, or used government funds to help landlords buy and let more properties for less. There were choices though.
I have to use my car as I have a moving workplace, often for half a day...That said, when I am in the office, I do ride most of the time. I’m happier and healthier for it.
And that's what it's all about, not the strange fundamentalist argument going on above between "everyone can make a choice to cycle" and "cycling to work is always impractical in the UK because I personally can't cycle to work".
For the journeys where people genuinely have a choice between cycling and driving (whether that is every day, or once a month) why can't we make it easy to choose cycling?
For the journeys where people genuinely have a choice between cycling and driving (whether that is every day, or once a month) why can’t we make it easy to choose cycling
Not everyone wants to cycle. Why not make other choices, which they will actually use, easier, cheaper and more efficient, thereby actually reducing the number of cars on the road.
TJ - You are preaching from the point of view of someone who happened to buy a house, just before the largest property boom in the UK's history and so did your now partner.
Was that your wisdom and knowledge or just pure, plain and simple luck?
Not only does Cromolyolly believe Honda engines clean the air he's now on a nihilistic trip about people not having choices and success being down to luck. There have been some strange folks on this forum but cromololly is the best reason I've had so far to not spend to much time in this little corner of the Net.
I choose to live a long way form where I was born in a place with affordable public transport (the bus home yesterday cost 1e for 55km), in a house which is within walking distance of where Madame works. It's not dumb luck or anyone else that brought me here. It was my own will and two legs to turn the pedals.
All those successful people on the forum, the ones you rubbish all the time, they did what the people in the Amazon warehouse perhaps regret not doing. Life is ful of chances and choices. Choose wisely.
There have been some strange folks on this forum but cromololly is the best reason I’ve had so far to not spend to much time in this little corner of the Net.
Happy to help - since you still haven't fully explained your firmly held belief that cars can only run at efficient rpms' in top gear (since we are doing ad hominems) maybe you shouldn't be spending so much time here.
You raise a good point though - you chose to live a long way from where you were born - I suppose you chose to be allowed to move to that place - and that that place had no control or agency over your "choice"
In which case I "choose" to be the King of Siam. Anyone know where my office is?
You rubbish my quoting an actual study which examines, amongst other things, the role of luck in where people end up but then you yourself say that life is full of chances. You are aware that chance and luck are two ways of saying the same thing?
All those successful people on the forum, the ones you rubbish all the time, they did what the people in the Amazon warehouse perhaps regret not doing.
Unbelievable! Edukator? You should hold your head in shame.
For those who don't have the ambition, MG are bringing out a mid sized electic car that looks as though it might be sub £20k, 250 miles range, 80% charge in less than 30mins.
Unbelievable! Edukator? You should hold your head in shame.
Care to explain what you think I should be ashamed off, gobuchul.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying
Care to explain what you think I should be ashamed off, gobuchul.
You really don't know?
Absolutely no idea. Though I suspect you have failed to read and understand. Put up or shut up.
Not everyone wants to cycle
You're kidding me. Really?
Absolutely no idea. Though I suspect you have failed to read and understand. Put up or shut up.
Troll.
Boring.
Deluded.
You really think someone struggling to get by on a zero hours contract at Amazon/Hermes/etc is actually in a position to make similar life decisions as yourself?
Your fortunate position is all down to your "hard work" and if they only worked harder they could be in a position to then make life changing decisions to reach your high level of happiness, satisfaction and not to mention arrogance?
You’re kidding me. Really?
I know, right? Proper fell off me bike when I heard that.
There are some really narrow minded folk on here. Do some of you really think people choose to have shit, low paying jobs that require excessive commutes? Take a long, hard look at yourselves and how patronising you are. If you also think luck and circumstances haven’t played a hand in getting you where you are then you’re a ****ing idiot.
All those successful people on the forum, the ones you rubbish all the time,
It was never my intention to rubbish anyone, and if that is the impression I gave, I apologise. I was trying to present an alternative case, that things might not be what people think they are. I was, I thought, engaging in debate.
I'll just leave these here
Some fascinating exptrapolations there. You should really concentrate on what people type not what you think they think, funkmaster and gobuchul.
I think you should think about what you type before typing it. No extrapolating on my behalf. It's clear as day what you've written only a couple of posts above this. There are many, many factors that govern ones opportunities in life. Hard work and personal choice p!ay a part in that, but there are always other factors. Perhaps you're just a bit shit at getting your point across in the written medium? Three posters in a row have called you out.
It’s not dumb luck or anyone else that brought me here. It was my own will and two legs to turn the pedals.
All those successful people on the forum, the ones you rubbish all the time, they did what the people in the Amazon warehouse perhaps regret not doing. Life is ful of chances and choices. Choose wisely.
That's an incredibly shitty thing to say. Basically, you're saying life is easy, just make the right choices, and anyone who isn't enjoying it only has themselves to blame so stop whining. **** me that is awful, truly awful. I've often stuck up for you Ed but that is deeply offensive. You have absolutely NO IDEA how people end up in poor situations. You think you do, but you don't. So you REALLY should stop talking about it when you are so ignorant. My god.
Also good job you and TJ totally ****ing up the thread. Take a forum break, please.
And no-one's rubbishing successful people. That's just stupid. But success nearly always has an element of luck. Even if it's just being born with a marketable aptitude. I'm incredibly lucky to have been born white middle class with a secure home, aptitude for marketable skills and parents who brought me up well so I could take advantage. You're suggesting that the other version of me who came from a broken home with abusive parents who gave no support, who grew up in a poor environment, was never given the chance to develop skills and ended up in a dead end is somehow to blame for any of that? Shame on you.
Pathetic, Molgrips.
Edit: and I note you've been editing without noting you've edited.
Only one person being rather pathetic here.
Edit - That'd be you
Edit edit - Reported Molgrips for not noting he'd edited a post. You monster Molgrips!
Only one person being rather pathetic here.
^ This.
I can't believe how wrong he is but he refuses to back down.
Edit: and I note you’ve been editing without noting you’ve edited.
Absolutely pathetic.
Some fascinating exptrapolations there. You should really concentrate on what people type not what you think they think, funkmaster and gobuchul.
This is exactly what you typed.
It’s not dumb luck or anyone else that brought me here. It was my own will and two legs to turn the pedals.
It's not dumb luck? No of course not. Just your own will. WTAF!
It's saddening that topics about enriching our environments can descend into such negativity.
The initial post was about creating space for people to safely move around, whether that be walking, cycling, or simply green spaces. I really don't get how that can be viewed as a bad thing.
Nobody has to cycle, and nobody has to walk. But it benefits us all if we have those options, none more so than our children who have no choice in the matter.
But it benefits us all if we have those options, none more so than our children who have no choice in the matter.
Hear, hear. Unfortunately, this thread is an example of how we are unable to get a consensus on basic stuff that seems to be a no brainer for other countries.
Nobody has to cycle, and nobody has to walk. But it benefits us all if we have those options, n
Well put.
unable to get a consensus on basic stuff that seems to be a no brainer for other countries.
Asking people to fundamentally change how they live is hardly basic. It wasn't a no brainier in other countries and judging from accounts they didn't get consensus. That they have done it doesn't demonstrate that it was any of those things. That is an attribution error.
Human nature being what it is, it is usually a no-brainer, basic thing when it speaks to something you believe, or derive benefit from. I'm sure if you told transit users they could have a commute half their current one if they banned bikes they'd be firing up the blast furnaces and proclaiming how basic and obvious the solution is and decrying the lack of consensus.
If we started from where we do have consensus, we'd be far more likely to find solutions.
Asking people to fundamentally change how they live is hardly basic.
I never suggested asking people to fundamentally change how they live.
No matter how often you try to conflate the two things, providing the opportunity to do something is not the same as compulsion to do that thing.
Do you think that making it easier for people to make journeys by cycling, instead of driving, is:
a) a good thing?
b) a bad thing?
I never suggested asking people to fundamentally change how they live.
Err, transplanting the Dutch method (no, it's not dirty) to England would be exactly that!
C) the wrong question.
I think making it easier for people to take a form of transport which is non-polluting, (hint, cycling infrastructure isn't, even though cycling is, more or less), moves a lot of people quickly, is cost effective and makes it easy for people to use it.
Since that doesn't exist, we have to look at other changes. Elimintaing journeys entirely, moving Amazon and the like off the roads and out of vehicles (especially diesel). Getting people living where jobs are, moving jobs where people are etc. As I said in the other thread we are talking about nibbling around the edges (keep the commute, change the vehicle) when we need to have much harder conversations.
Apologies for asking the wrong question. Bear with me if I'm a bit slow keeping up with you.
Taking a practical example, the OP's new build housing estate 1.5km from the school. What do you think are the effective solutions for moving children from the new houses to the school (and to be clear, I'm not suggesting there is one solution)?
I never suggested asking people to fundamentally change how they live.
Err, transplanting the Dutch method (no, it’s not dirty) to England would be exactly that!
Really? A slight change to road planning and road laws would be a fundamental change to how people live?
I do find it astonishing that this cyclist forum is so wedded to cars and anti pro bike policies. Policies that round the world have sown massive advantages to the entire population not just cyclist
I'd need a little more info.
Effective in what sense, pollution, cost, gerneral environmental concerns, time?
Do they have to exist or can we be a little pie in the sky ( but within the real of possibilities currently available?)
Can it be the harder conversation, where neither the new development nor the school get built?
using estate 1.5km from the school. What do you think are the effective solutions for moving children from the new houses to the school
Walking? Or is it a trick question?
transplanting the Dutch method
Does everyone think the Dutch have perfect car free roads?
They don't!
In the city centres they do have loads of bikes and it's great.
They have cycle paths alongside main roads, which is great and I would love to see them in the UK.
However, the vast majority of their main roads are clogged and awful. The same as most developed nations.
the vast majority of people still commute by car.
There is a lot more to it then just saying "be like the Dutch".
50% of all journeys in Holland are by bike IIRC. Where do you get your stats from that the majority of commutes are by car?
IME outside of amsterdamn roads are quieter than the UK by a lot and cyclists are treated much better by car drivers. I saw no congestion outside of amsterdamn and even in amsterdamn is much better than London or Edinburgh - IME
There is a lot more to it then just saying “be like the Dutch”.
Yep, but everytime you talk about taxation, public transport and other solutions they all line up to tell you how it will never work because the bus doesn't stop outside your house.
Think I'm coming up to 4 years of no car ownership at the moment, it's annoying at times but so is driving, it's refreshing too and better on my wallet.
I still drive when I have to but it's the exception not the rule.
A slight change to road planning and road laws would be a fundamental change to how people live?
It would hardly be slight if it were to be effective and yes, it would. That must be obvious.
I do find it astonishing that this cyclist forum is so wedded to cars and anti pro bike policies. Policies that round the world have sown massive advantages to the entire population not just cyclist
Don't think anyone has said they are wedded to cars and are anti pro bike policies, they just aren't the solution to the problem. As I said earlier if bikers on a bike forum are telling you bikes aren the solution, it's probably a sign that they aren't.
Does everyone think the Dutch have perfect car free roads
No, sorry, that wasn't what I meant. Just that the Dutch and Copenhagen are often raised as examples of how to convert to cycling, not that they don't use cars.
As I said earlier if bikers on a bike forum are telling you bikes aren the solution, it’s probably a sign that they aren’t.
What it tells you is things have gone too far the other way, people don't see other options as they are conditioned out of it.
There are literally no downsides to making the UK more cycle friendly, making the UK better for cycling and especially making it better in cities, the hundreds I see every day commuting by bike are just a start.
The rest will come only when the cult of the car is broken.
Also not sure if this is ambitious enough
https://www.tfgm.com/2040/delivery-plan-2020-2025
But it's a start, implementation is key though but this should be the minimum
To deliver our long-term 2040 Transport Strategy, we want 50% of all journeys in Greater Manchester to be made by walking, cycling and public transport by 2040. That’s a million more sustainable journeys every day.
To achieve this we want to:
Make walking and cycling the natural choice for short journeys.
Ensure that new developments support sustainable transport, and that our town centres are attractive and well connected.
Transform public transport capacity and active travel in the Regional Centre.
Offer good alternatives to the car for travel across the city-region.
Enable good orbital connections between town centres.
More on the site
