[Closed] feminists.

literally?

one on each?

Anita Sarkeesian = Not a nice person

I think it's very hard to identify modern feminism - the expected linear trajectory of feminist movement of the 70's and 80' have become fragmented, contradictory and scattered - e.g pole dancing is both a reviled activity and a popular exercise.

I think, on reflection it's because women be crazy.

samunkim - Member
Anita Sarkeesian = Not a nice person

Why?

How about looking at her target of choice..

Socially awkward gamer nerds, living in mum's basement. Yeah way to re-invent feminism ( and make yourself rich ) anita

samunkim - Member
How about looking at her target of choice..

Socially awkward gamer nerds, living in mum's basement. Yeah way to re-invent feminism ( and make yourself rich ) anita

Aw, yeah, the pwah ickle gamers, sending death and rape threats, publishing her home and work addresses online.

Really?

As for getting rich, she'd still be an obscure YouTuber if the misogynistic, sorry 'socially awkward gamer nerds' hadn't started a massive campaign of hate and harassment against her. So yeah, gutted them and more power to her really if she's getting rich.

did they call you name for being a tart Alpin 😉

Depends on thr individual tbh

I dislike the term as a battle for equality concerns us all I also think it is dangerous to see the world in terms of only one dynamic be it gender , sexuality, class or capital.

I also think a number of men are threatened by strong and forceful women and some of the comments on social media are contemptible
Basically it depends on what they say rather than whether they identify themselves as a feminist.....same as cyclists really or men.

Lifer
God you must be bored, if you want rehash this whole thing..

But okay lets play

Whats more important to you
1. abolishing FGM or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
2. ISIS taking women from captured towns as trophy slaves or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
3. The fact that the police still seem unable/unwilling to step in & prevent violence and murders in abusive relationships or boys looking at animated boowbs ?

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/08/killing-of-women-by-men-record-database-femicide

no one calls me a tart, Junky, except, well... me.
i just liked the irony of saying that feminists get on my tits. =)

[img] [/img]

But okay lets play

Whats more important to you
1. abolishing FGM or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
2. ISIS taking women from captured towns as trophy slaves or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
3. The fact that the police still seem unable/unwilling to step in & prevent violence and murders in abusive relationships or boys looking at animated boowbs ?

I know how about not being flippant and trying to do it all, how about the idea if you stop some of the issues early on and educate people better as to what is more socially and morally acceptable you might be able to make in roads into domestic violence before it starts.

Lets play another game
Which would you prefer losing your left leg or losing your right one?

But okay lets play

Whatabouttery is a stupid game, and a bankrupt rhetorical device. All those things are bad. Sarkeesian is an academic with an interest in computer games. So that's what she makes slightly grating but basically correct videos about.

Meanwhile, [i]other[/i] people with [i]different[/i] areas of expertise are busily trying to stamp out FGM, combat ISIS and deal with domestic abuse.

All of these things are happening [u]at the same time[/u], and if all of them got sorted, that would be excellent. The precise order in which they get sorted is probably not going to be much affected by re-deploying Anita Sarkeesian to fight ISIS, or the RAF to persuade "gamers" to be less ghastly.

Also, this "choice of target" stuff has been done to death. If you haven't read Laurie Penny's [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/on-nerd-entitlement-rebel-alliance-empire ]rather good essay[/url], give it a go. One can reasonably disagree with a lot of Penny's stuff, but this is a perfectly earnest attempt to engage and explain on this. If you're feeling personally attacked by it, take a moment. She really isn't having a go at you.

Tough crowd

My wife's a modern feminist, which from where I'm sat seems to give her every right to say really shitty things about men doing innocuous things and not spotting the irony of what she's doing. It really grinds my gears.

You know when you're sat on a train and you overhear a conversation and think

"I probably ought to say something, 'cos what they're saying is wrong."

but you don't because you know it'll just cause a row and it's not going to change anyone's mind.

This thread is one of those occasions.

BigDummy - cheers for the Laurie Penny link, will share this with my 2 teenage boys.

"Sarkeesian’s videos argue that often female game characters face deadly harm as a context for bloody male-perpetrated revenge, and that this could contribute toward a culture in which threatening violence against women is normalised. It is a suggestion that some have disagreed with so strongly that, in 2014, the organisers of the Game Developer’s Choice award ceremony in San Francisco were emailed a bomb threat if Sarkeesian appeared."
I can't really see which side in that debate is the "not nice one" can any one help?

You know when you're sat on a train and you overhear a conversation and think

"I probably ought to say something, 'cos what they're saying is wrong."

but you don't because you know it'll just cause a row and it's not going to change anyone's mind.

This thread is one of those occasions.

Ah yes, you can't win an argument with a stupid person as they're too stupid to realise when they're wrong?!?

Is girl
Is gamer
dunno if fem (well, y'know durr, y'know what I mean) 😳

Watches thread

often female game characters face deadly harm as a context for bloody male-perpetrated revenge, and that this could contribute toward a culture in which threatening violence against women is normalised.

Okay - so we give princess peach her own game.

I don't think you have to be a femenist to think that FGM and Domestic violence are wrong...

[i]I don't think you have to be a femenist to think that FGM and Domestic violence are wrong.[/i]

I think you might be surprised TBH.

samunkim - Member
Lifer
God you must be bored, if you want rehash this whole thing..

But okay lets play

Whats more important to you
1. abolishing FGM or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
2. ISIS taking women from captured towns as trophy slaves or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
3. The fact that the police still seem unable/unwilling to step in & prevent violence and murders in abusive relationships or boys looking at animated boowbs ?

Play what? I only asked you why you thought Anita Sarkeesian isn't a nice person.

She was in a position to comment with knowledge on a subject and did it.

What are you doing to stop those things you've posted, you bastard*?

*not ad hominem, because according to your own rules if you're not doing anything to stop those things then you're not a nice person.

Pwned.

😉

I think the big problem with "feminists" is it's a broad, ambiguous term.

There are feminists who think, quite rightly, that people should be equal and treated equally regardless of the form their naughty bits happened to take.

There are feminists who think all men are rapists and should be castrated at birth.

So when one talks about "feminists" one is making a rash generalisation and probably not going to do oneself any favours.

Whats more important to you
1. abolishing FGM or boys looking at animated boowbs ?
[etc]

Why are all these things mutually exclusive? Is sexual repression a prerequisite before people can stop cutting lumps out of children (to repress their sexuality, ironically)?

Also, if you're gonna intentionally misspell 'boobs' it's 'bewbz'.
RM.

Hmm - the feminists thread descends into discussion on how to alternatively spell boobs. oh well :-/

Rachel

well it's better than is started....

Hi BigDummy, Lifer

Please provide evidence of Anita's knowledge of subject & and interest in computer games.
"Anita can't name three video games" etc etc

mikewsmith
left leg obviously

Please provide evidence of Anita's knowledge of subject & and interest in computer games.
"Anita can't name three video games" etc etc

I'm not sure what you're on about here, but Anita reels off the names of a fair few games in her YouTubes, does that count?

You know she can't actually take your gameboobz away, don't you? She just makes a case for why they're not just a harmless incidental in the gaming landscape. If you think they're under threat and they're vital to your gaming experience it's up to you to make the case for keeping them. This is traditionally done by making threats of rape and murder, bomb threats, SWATing, that sort of thing.

[i]"Anita can't name three video games" etc etc[/i]

good grief, the woman's clearly a monster!

samunkin - really - how is she not a nice person.

(damn and I said I wouldn't bite).

I haven't yet seen anyone argue the pro-GamerGate side without looking like a massive end...

wwaswas

Cool, now we get to the twist my words phase.

I didn't say she was monster, I just pointed out that she has no experience or expertise in gaming.

What's worse than a male chauvinist?
A woman that won't do what she's told.

[i]I just pointed out that she has no experience or expertise in gaming. [/i]

you said she wasn't a nice person. I questioned whether having little knowledge of gaming made someone not a nice person.

Do you have any actual evidence beyond a claimed lack of knowledge of games that she's a bad person?

Why does she need experience or expertise (lol) in gaming?

Her position is gaming has an issue with misogyny and she's 100% right. Who cares whether she's a nice person? That's what they call ad hominem.

I say that as a lifelong 'gamer' and a feminist.

I haven't yet seen anyone argue the pro-GamerGate side without looking like a massive end...

AFAIK the basic argument is a free-market one, and whether or not a private company is under any obligation to promote a particular political or social viewpoint.

Of course, the fact that a game is sexist doesn't mean that its fans want to have that pointed out to them, and try to wriggle out with ad-hominem attacks, the worst of which have included death and rape threats. I'd have a lot more respect for them if they'd just said "yes, it's sexist, I like looking at tits"...

Dunno, from reading her wikipedia she seems a pretty reasonable person (particularly speaking as a pink princess stereotype hating father). It does kind of wind me up that whilst popular culture sees all sorts of shapes and sizes of guys, women in games/films are (practically) always thin with big tits.

I would like to see her doing more science and less philosophy though. IMO the tropes she talks about are a symptom not the disease. And obviously anyone who sends threats is a total bell end. And there are, yes, bigger issues in the world which she may or may not be doing anything about - but they don't really merit discussion do they? I think we all kind of agree about them.

I commented recently to a friend that the idea of feminism was anachronistic, that in this country at least (other places are vastly different), men and women enjoyed entirely equal opportunity.

She retorted quite sharply when this apparent equality had been reached. To which I said the day we elected a woman as Prime Minister.

There is inequality every where in the UK and anyone of any gender, race, colour, creed or age can experience being disadvantaged. The idea that women are materially more disadvantaged in this country than any other group, including white middle class men, is in my view a myth.

But like I said, the rest of the world is a completely different story.

and the point I am trying to make is that gaming is NOT misogynist and she has cherry-picked examples out of context to gain international fame and $150,000..

IMO gaming and comic book worlds are obsessed with tits and fannies

from the characters, the roles they have in games, the clothes (lack) they wear, without getting into the whole role model stuff, and weird view of women it has.

pretty much every game makes me die a bit inside

a lot of guys that like games and comics don't like that being pointed out to them, but at least women developers and commentators are speaking out about it.

Oh, and gamerboyz? If on Saturday you think you'd like to spend some time in Game, would it kill you to have a shower? You don't actually have to live the stereotype, y'know? (joke) 😆

I haven't yet seen anyone argue the pro-GamerGate side without looking like a massive end...

^ This.

Unfortunately, gaming has been steeped in unintentional and intentional misogyny from it's very early days. Part of the problem is that until recently, games were designed by young males and marketed at young males. The fact that the marketplace is expanding to cater for women can only be a good thing, I find it sad that some aggressive, socially dysfunctional males see it as a threat.

As for feminism, if believing that women aren't treated equally in society and that it isn't fair makes me a feminist then I guess I'm happy to wear that on my sleeve.

Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a [i]massive[/i] problem with bellendery of which misogyny, racism and homophobia are easy outlets. I'm not convinced that in the majority of cases it [i]originates[/i] in misogyny, I think it originates in the desire to abuse people and the grabbing of whatever tool is least challenging to wield.

Sarkeesian’s videos argue that often female game characters face deadly harm as a context for bloody male-perpetrated revenge, and that this could contribute toward a culture in which threatening violence against women is normalised.

...as long as you're happy for someone to come after you and enact bloody revenge, anyway. The whole "female in jeopardy" plot device is worn out completely but this complaint of it in particular doesn't hold much water imo. It's a thing that the bad guys do, then get killed for, that's not going to normalise it to kids playing the good guys. It helps normalise the idea that women are weak and need protecting but gaming is a drop in a very big bucket there.

IMO [s]gaming and comic book worlds[/s] heterosexual men are obsessed with tits and fannies

Does it really surprise anyone, that an industry that supplies a predominantly adolescent male audience with a product, is including quite a lot of T&A in that product?

I mean really?

A substantial part of the history of heterosexual male adolescence is solely about the frustration and anxiety of getting with the opposite sex.

[i]Does it really surprise anyone,[/i]

not surprising, no. Doesn't make it right though.

Yep, emsz has the point there, it's not has it or does it but should it. Why should things be propagated that women are objects? As said it's a bit of a defend the indefensible.

The idea that women are materially more disadvantaged in this country than any other group, including white middle class men, is in my view a myth.

Are you aware of the gender pay gap in the UK? It's not an idea it's a fact. Currently 9% and that's a record low. If you want to view that (and white male privilege) as a myth then that's up to you.

edit: I'd also point out the idea of gamers being adolescent is outdated. We've grown up. There was a study just last year which found the average gamer was in his mid thirties. In my particular case that's right on the money.

Northwind - Member
Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a massive problem with bellendery

Haha, 'bellendery'. That's a funny word.

Are you aware of the gender pay gap in the UK? It's not an idea it's a fact. Currently 9% and that's a record low. If you want to view that (and white male privilege) as a myth then that's up to you.

A gender pay gap of 9% does not prove that there is gender inequality. It just shows that there is a gender pay gap. It can be explained by other factors such as the tendency for women to approach salary negotiation differently. You also have a lag in the system that will take time to reduce to within a margin for error and the trend over time has been showing that this is happening.

Yep, emsz has the point there, it's not has it or does it but should it. Why should things be propagated that women are objects? As said it's a bit of a defend the indefensible.

Doesn't make it wrong either. You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

Perhaps. But that's not really the problem, that's just one facet (and an easy target for both sides).

[i]You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form[/i]

Oh please. 🙄

please move on from that one. It's just an excuse for behavior that's threatening and creepy. As cougar says.

Stand back wimminz!!! Help is on its way!!!!!

[img] [/img]

@ emsz

Please don't conflate games & comic books (cause you got me there), Most are just soft-porn right-wing power fantasies by people unable to write a novel.

P.S. Destiny makes me die inside

[i]Please don't conflate games & comic books[/i]

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20130211012254[/img]

whatever 🙄

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form

Oh please.

please move on from that one. It's just an excuse for behavior that's threatening and creepy. As cougar says.

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form, but it shouldn't be an excuse for threatening and creepy behaviour.

"IMO gaming and comic book worlds are obsessed with tits and fannies"

They are! They are played and read by teenage boys who actively fantasise and are fascinated by girl anatomy. So are we surprised.

But I agree that Manga can propagate misogynistic stereotypes such as the "Warrior Princess", and the association between being an evil mastermind and wearing a trim-beard.

obsess
?b?s?s/Submit
verb
preoccupy or fill the mind of (someone) continually and [b]to a troubling extent.[/b]

Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a massive problem with bellendery of which misogyny, racism and homophobia are easy outlets.

I haven't noticed a lot of macho bloke rescues helpless female in the games I play but maybe I'm not looking for it, lots of the games I do play have plenty of female characters if not the main protagonist

"IMO gaming and comic book worlds are obsessed with tits and fannies"

emsz - if you fancy doing writing a comic book about a liberal, gay super-hero, who not only saves the world, but has impeccable taste in furnishings, and campaigns for gender equality, I'll do the illustrations!

Together we can shift perceptions sister. We'll sell squillions!!!!

Oh.... hang on a minute.....

I reckon that the depiction of women in computer games is sensitive and accurate and not at all large companies playing on fairly degrading stereotypes in search of titillation. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off down the shops.
[img] [/img]

edit: oh, there was a lot more... erm... silver involved than I could see in the zoomed out version of that...

[i]if you fancy doing writing a comic book about a liberal, gay super-hero, who not only saves the world, but has impeccable taste in furnishings, and campaigns for gender equality[/i]

I'd need to have total editorial control on her fabulous wardrobe, the reasons why she can't seem to keep houseplants alive (random but true) and why it's not at all weird that she can't have a normal relationship (where's my Hollyoak thread)

She shreds as well. And can change tubes with her bare hands grrrr 😆

^binners - that's crap and you know it. Nobody is suggesting it has to be that way to be right.

Although I'll call you on that one and say it's already been done (just about, not sure on his stance on gender equality):

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

that in this country at least (other places are vastly different), men and women enjoyed entirely equal opportunity.

We are better than many countries but lets not pretend we have achieved equality

the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

*fistbumps* lemonysam

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form

*which the right and wrongs of can be discussed elsewhere

But
That's Harley Quinn from DC Comics or maybe Jessica Nigri

[i]That's Harley Quinn from DC Comics[/i]

as portrayed in Injustice gods amongst us..y'know...a game. 🙄

EMZ check out " my secret identity " a female superhero comic strip on feminist lines, featured in Geeked magazine, both available online or on facebook

Not sure why "T&A" has to pervade pretty much everything tho.

Same reason Channing Tatum has a career.

Can we just all agree that anything associated with DC of late is hardly going to be flying the flag for feminism/ mental health issues/ any other controversy they can generate for headline appeal?

Moving on, I agree that whilst games could do far better to present women as real people rather than eye candy some of the targets are just ridiculous.

GTA and Saints Row are two that spring to mind instantly. Whilst one is 'grittier' than the other neither can claim to be anything other than a massive exaggeration of reality. The people who moan about female NPC's who can be killed are the ones who get my back up as they are completely ignoring the fact that you can do the same thing to the male NPC's.

There is also precious little praise for the games that do get it right, how many feminists have praised Half Life (for example) for it's strong NPC characters (Yes, Alyx gets kidnapped but then again how often do Freeman and Shepherd get done over during the course of the series?). Perhaps if more feminists focussed on the games getting it right people would realise that compromising on the TNA doesn't require a PC love-in.

A gender pay gap of 9% does not prove that there is gender inequality. It just shows that there is a gender pay gap.

I didn't say that. You said it was a myth that women were materially disadvantaged. You specifically said compared to white males (LOL). If they're not earning it where are they getting the 9%? From men? Is that equality?

It can be explained by other factors such as the tendency for women to approach salary negotiation differently.

Victim-blaming.

You also have a lag in the system that will take time to reduce to within a margin for error and the trend over time has been showing that this is happening.

We're measuring the margin of error in 'the lag' now? Sorry geetee I don't think you've a clue what you're on about, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

We kinda glossed over it a bit back, but the "games are for teenage boys" is a bit of a misnomer. The largest demographic of gamers is, yes, blokes, but aged over 30.

Games companies - well, some games companies - are wising up to this slowly, and whilst we still see titles like DOA5, where the anatomically typical contestants in a fighting game are sporting traditional martial arts attire:

[img] [/img]

... and, of course, its "Extreme Beach Volleyball" spin-off titles, we are slowly getting three-dimensional female characters who aren't there to either provide gratuitous T&A or be rescued by a triangular Marine. Cf, Ms Croft's latest incarnation:

[img] [/img]

Software houses are gradually working out that not appealing solely to pubescent males is a good thing (probably because they've realised there's money in it). Most newer Blizzard titles have allowed you to create male or female characters (though they do still pander a little to stereotypes, you're often choosing between muscles or breasts). The Mass Effect games allow you to create your Commander character as either gender, and don't pigeon-hole you into heterosexual dialogue; The same is true of a few RPG series now I come to think about it, Dragon Age and Fable jump to mind. And even if a game isn't forward-thinking enough to allow you to get in touch with your inner lesbian, at least having a choice of a female player character is becoming more commonplace even if all that changes is the texture model.

So this is great, yes? Well, it's a step in the right direction, but it's telling that I could rhyme off in one sentence the titles that get it right. I've heard tales of parents having to explain to their daughters why they have to play games as a boy character; choice is good, and it's not just about pandering to women who are a minority in the games arena (hmm, can't think why that might be). Hell, [i]I'll [/i]usually pick a female character when given a choice.

Video games are part of our culture now in the way that films and TV have long been established, so we have a new burden of responsibility here. There's no harm in aiming some titles at a demographic per sé; FIFA 15 isn't going to sell many copies to people who don't like football. But this shouldn't be the norm, the only role models for little Jennie shouldn't be the glorified secretary who pops up on the radio occasionally whilst the men get on with doing the real work, or the helpless princess who exists solely to be rescued by, yes, the bloke.

Tomb Raider should be applauded, and Bayonetta for that matter too (even if she's as mad as a box of frogs and has broken fasteners on most of her clothing). These women kick bottom, the whole premise of Tomb Raider is a tale where the big clever men don't take the silly little girl seriously until she hands the bad guys their arses and saves everyone from certain death. Good work, Lara.

STATO like I said, it's depressing 🙁

We kinda glossed over it a bit back, but the "games are for teenage boys" is a bit of a misnomer. The largest demographic of gamers is, yes, blokes, but aged over 30. who still live in their fetid bedrooms at their mums house, hunched over screens, with the curtains shut, surrounded by an ocean of crusty Kleenex

Is anyone else waiting for Alpin to come back and explain exactly why feminists have been getting on his mewbs?

Interesting though the chat about gaming and misogyny is...

We're measuring the margin of error in 'the lag' now? Sorry geetee I don't think you've a clue what you're on about, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

Funny that given that I did a year of Gender Studies at uni which included reviewing a lot of feminist literature and data on the issue.

Victim-blaming.

It could be, but there was a study done recently that find evidence to support this. I will try to find it.

As for the pay differential, yes, it's 9% (I do think you did well to get the correct figure rather than the one usually used in this situations, which is around 20%. That higher figure does not account for the spread in roles typically taken by women being more likely to be low paid because they also give greater flexibility. Honestly, I don't mean this in a patronising way, just acknowleding that you have done your homework).

9% isn't far off the margin of error. It could mean the difference is really only 4%.

[i]and Bayonetta for that matter too[/i]

hmm not sure about the witch, she's a bit of **** material really isn't she? (from memory skin tight clothes with ridiculous high heels, and no back)