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Not missing the point at all. I agree the BMW should not have been in the outside lane. However I do not agree with Renton using the reasoning for being late for work to perform an undertaking manouvre. Would being a couple of minutes late make that much difference?
I do find it hard to understand why a cycling forum has so many cock drivers on it tho. And you really don't save any significant time by driving like a cock.
It's not, maybe you're just too far the other way? 🙂
Incidentally, you do save a LOT of time (assuming you don't die/kill someone). While not recommending the action and realising afterwards that it wasn't the best thing to do and didn't help, I once got a call about a close family member having a heart attack and being taken to hospital pronto and "needed" to get there fast. I was 28 miles from the hospital, I was in the centre of a city, they were in the centre of another town. Normal driving time (chilled week-day commute speeds) down the motorways it takes about an hour, maybe slightly under. I made it in 36 minutes, without running anyone off the road or jumping reds, just by driving marginally faster than the limit (at times, and not in built up areas) and not dawdling behind people going slowly. It IS faster, and it can be significantly. But it can be more dangerous too, obviously.
Interesting way the thread has gone. Lots of sterotyping. If the BMW 325 was a petrol then it's almost certainly a not a IT / middle management / rep mobile. There are bad drivers out there of all types and driving all sorts of cars. In the past I've been tailgated by an aggressive driver....in a Prius FFS.
EDIT ....maybe it was just their brakes not working thinking about it 😀
I've been tailgated by an aggressive driver....in a Prius FFS.
As a friend of mine said, "nothing screams 'I dont get it' more than a prius driving aggressively at 80mph". 🙂
whilst everyone else is arguing about undertaking, driving in excess of 100mph, road rage, the two second rule, flashing lights, knobbers driving BMWs etc....
...all I want to know is what happened to the Renault Clio, did it vanish into thin air ?
[i][b]clio pulls over [/b]and i move up behind this bmw and give him a friendly flash to let him know and get him to[b] move over as the inside and middle lanes are empty for at least 1/2 mile.[/b][/i]
Kev
You should try towing a caravan.:-)
Travelling at a constant 55-60mph might get you there a bit later, but with [b]loads[/b] less stress.
Have to admit to blasting past a few lane hoggers when I had a motorbike though. Drop a gear & you've passed before they've noticed.
all I want to know is what happened to the Renault Clio, did it vanish into thin air ?
You are assuming the clio was also driving faster than the car that refused to pull over?
Travelling at a constant 55-60mph might get you there a bit later, but with loads less stress.
Not if you were in holiday journeys with my family it isn't 🙂 I actually quite like towing, but it is even more stressful than normal driving because the people you could normally pass happily at 55/60 you can't, you're stuck in with the ditherers, you can't get out into the middle lane because people forget theyre overtaking and just sit next to you ignoring your indicators and failing to predict that you might want to pull out because you're approaching the next vehicle slowly. When you find a middle-lane-hogger you can't pass them legally and undertaking with a heavy load would be dangerous due to the inability to take evasive action. Nightmare scenario ! 😀
ah the clio had pulled into inside lane that was clear and carried on on its merry way
Coffee King... nope. Clio pulls over at 60mph. Our STW driver then tells us he flashed the BMW (both cars also travelling at 60mph at this moment 'cause no one has yet accelerated) to move over as there is no traffic in either of the lanes to the left for half a mile.
What happened to the Clio ? Surely it must have been within half a mile of the other two cars using the inside or middle lane ?
Keva - you're making massive assumptions. 1) that the clio was doing 60mph in the first place, 2) that it was sufficiently close to be involved in the situation (other than a passing comment). But assuming it was in the inside lane, what of it?
Ive just p[osted up there^^^^^^^ clio undertook and carried on in the inside lane!!
by the time i had got passed the beemer the clio had caught the other traffic up.
Why can't we just all get along? Why does such aggression and tension have to exist on the daily commute, just because 'we' are inside little tin cans designed to rip ridiculous amounts of money out of our pockets for the benefit of others, just to show who has more money then who?
I'm getting increasingly bored with the rat race! What is the point?
Can you tell I was 40 recently?
coffeeking - Member
Good for you that you have so few things to fit into a day that a few minutes are not important to you. What would you do if they didn't move over, as is often the case?
If you have to slow from 70 to 60 mph for an hour it cost you about 8 1/2 minutes.
It's unlikely you would have to sit behind a driver for more than 5 minutes before they became aware of you. Total time cost is less than a minute, which I am sure you could make up with your superior driving skills.
The roads are for everyone - from young heroes with razor sharp reactions, ancient grannies doddering off to visit family, harassed mothers with a car full of screamers, and reps in a hurry. If you can't allow for the lowest common denominator in these situations maybe it's time to take a road skills course.
BTW what do you do when you get stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road?
Keva - surely Renton meant that the carriageway was clear for at least 1/2 a mile AHEAD?? Rather than perhaps 1/2 a mile in front & 1/2 a mile behind........?
The assumption being that as the middle and inside lanes were clear for 1/2 a mile (ahead) the lane hog had nothing impeding him moving into a more suitable lane).
The Renault Clio driver was irrelevant at this point in the proceedings. He was probably more concerned about his bonnet flying open without warning to get involved in this little feud.
stumpy is correct !! mway was clear for at least 1/2 mile ahead, no reason for bmw to be where it was.
like me the clio driver had probably tried to make him aware he was in the wrong lane for the speed and conditions and got fed up so undertook.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker) and I get sick of idiots flashing me or sitting on my bumper, I slow down a bit if they do it. I am sorry but unless you are a police officer you don't tell me what to do ta v much. Yes there are idiots on the road, but everyone will be an idiot in someone elses eye.
Don't even get me started on slip road discipline! Do people joining the motorway not realise it's not their right of way. I almost got wiped out by some halfwit going to fast whilst joining the motorway.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker)
Well you do actually - basic law of physics, time = distance / speed.
**** me does it really matter?
Monkeychild has a point, I'm sure we've all seemed like idiots to other drivers at some time or other. still no need to sit in outside lane if road is clear, however I get pretty pi**ed off when people flash me, particularly if they've only been there a second or two - I have mirrors, I generally know you're there !! In some countries, Germany for example, flashing is the norm and everyone does it and everyone usually moves out of the way as soon as it is safe to do so, it's not "the norm" here though, hence people get annoyed with it.
I too have had several "experiences" (of a driving nature) with BMW drivers, usually way too fast, usually impatient, one was reading work documents whilst driving (for several miles), which was ok 'cos he's really important! Worst one was whilst driving north on A1 I was in outside lane, a reasonable distance behind vehicle in front, doing a steady 75 - (keeping pace with traffic) lots of taffic in both lanes so nowhere to go, and this nob pulls right up my a**e and stays there for several miles, clearly trying to bully me out of the way, he could not go anywhere as both lanes were very busy so whats the point. I just stayed put for ages and eventually slowed down, this just made him undertake (recklessly I might add) and then he pulled in front of me and slammed his anchors on, do these people see themselves or their business meeting as that important?
nothing is worth risking life for...muppets
It is absolutely true that driving like a cock does not get you there significantly faster. I have had this proven twice on journey of 3+ hours - two cars one going hell for leather one on a relaxed cruise less than 10 mins later in a 3 hr journey.
It is basic physics - the time you spend going faster because you are driving like a cock is so small in relation to the total journey time that it is insignificant
If in an 60 mile journey you spend all of it at 60 mph it takes an hour. spend 20 mins at 70and the rest at 60 and you save 3 mins. to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
In the OPs commute I bet the driving like a cock saved him under a minute.
The defence some of you make of the reckless driving and the undertaking is breathtaking, stupid and just wrong. The correct thing for the OP to have done is to have moved into the middle lane and dropped back and relaxed. Mr supercock in the BMW would have got bored and got out of the way then you can continue on your way at a normal speed rather than getting involved in a roadf rage.
Why a cycling forum will defend reckless driving is incomprehensible to me.
I have driven fast and ridden fast motorcycles a lot at speeds that would make you blush. (and put me in jail) I have learnt to avoid getting into situations like the OPs 'cos the few seconds it saves it not worth the stress.
Every day I do a 50 mile each way commute on the M62/M1. The amount of ****in idiots that drive in the middle or outside lane with nothing in the inside lane is ridiculous and completly cloggs up the motorway.
It is easily possible to stay in the inside lane and pass streams of cars outside you without having to do dangerous manouvers etc. Some times you do get some one who sits in the outside lane at 60 mph and if I am behind them I will flash. If they are that unaware, they shouldnt be on the road!
Undertaking is right, and I appreciate that, but neither is satying in outer lanes and having no comprehension of what is going on around you.
As to the original post fair enough to the undertake, but to get involved up to 100mph is stupid.
How come the French can get motorway driving right, and we fail so badly?
Also I'm all for minimum speeds on the motorway. At rush hour the average speed is 70-90mph in the outside lane. Then some numpty doing 50mph will put infront of some one and nearly cause an accident, or force lorries to over take them. Oh and then thers slip roads. Why the fu@k do people think that you slow down on the motorway, before getting on to the slip road? Its some thing thats got worse over the past few years and is plain dangerous.
If in an 60 mile journey you spend all of it at 60 mph it takes an hour. spend 20 mins at 70and the rest at 60 and you save 3 mins. to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
But, with respect, you're only talking about driving "like a cock" (i.e. swiftly and smoothly, overtaking slower folk who mutter "wont get there any faster") on motorways, where sure enough the time gains are fairly minimal. Take it to dual carriageways and large open A roads and the gains are vast.
Flashing someone to ask them to move over, or continuing on your way with an undertake is not dangerous or aggressive, it's just common sense.
to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
No, you just have to have other road users not driving like cocks, it really is that simple.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker) and I get sick of idiots flashing me or sitting on my bumper, I slow down a bit if they do it. I am sorry but unless you are a police officer you don't tell me what to do ta v much.
They're flashing you, probably, because you're sat in a lane when you could be over one lane. It doesnt matter what speed they're doing, or what speed you're doing, if you're in a lane when you should be in the one to the left, you're in the wrong. The rules of the road say keep left unless overtaking. Admittedly some people do flash when you're passing someone just because they want to go faster, to them it's the proverbial finger.
It is basic physics - the time you spend going faster because you are driving like a cock is so small in relation to the total journey time that it is insignificant
You're using my words, but not the context I used them in - was replying to the assertion that there's no point going over 70 as you don't get there any quicker (nothing to do with driving style - you can drive like a c*ck at 50mph if you want).
FWIW personally in the original situation as described I'd have pulled over into the left lane and accelerated up to the speed I wanted to do, leaving the BMW driver to do whatever speed he wanted to in the right lane. Definitely prefer having a lane gap if going past on the left, and original scenario describes left and middle lane as empty. I don't really care if TJ thinks that would be driving like a c*ck.
Coffeeking - no they are not vast gains on motorways and dual carriageways. A few minutes in the hour - you don't spend enough time going faster to make a significant difference. Hence my use of 60 and 70 mph in the sums. I have proven this before and there are many examples of it. Because you constantly accelerate and decelerate to and from the higher speeds you spend little time at the higher speeds and as in the sums I did above it makes a very small difference.
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway
How come the French can get motorway driving right,
my experience of driving in France is that a car will approach from the rear and sit on your bumper for 5 miles until a vehicle can be seen approaching from the oppsite direction ----- only then will the overtaking manoeuvre take place
If you drove from Lands End to John O Groats (874 miles) at 80 mph it'd take ~11 hours. If you did it at 70 it'd take ~12.5 hours. That's a 1.5 hour saving. There is no point to this post. Thanks.
If you have to slow from 70 to 60 mph for an hour it cost you about 8 1/2 minutes.
8.5 minutes I might need for some reason, and it's not your right to judge whether I need it, but that's by the by.
It's unlikely you would have to sit behind a driver for more than 5 minutes before they became aware of you.
Often they're aware of you, but they refuse to move. That's fine, I'll pass on the inside if you insist on pointlessly sitting in the outside.
Total time cost is less than a minute, which I am sure you could make up with your superior driving skills.
Why, thank you. I could, but it would generally mean I have to drive like an idiot to do so, rather than safely.
The roads are for everyone - from young heroes with razor sharp reactions, ancient grannies doddering off to visit family, harassed mothers with a car full of screamers, and reps in a hurry. If you can't allow for the lowest common denominator in these situations maybe it's time to take a road skills course.
No, the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure. The outside/middle lane hoggers would fail that test (if only it included motorways!) for not returning to the left after passing. They, therefore, either force the whole network to their speed like a rolling roadblock, or people pass them on the inside.
BTW what do you do when you get stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road?
I wait til I can pass, though I'd rarely (never if I can help it) take a road that was too narrow to pass a cyclist anyway. How does meeting a single slow vehicle on a single-track road related to outside lane hoggers on a motorway, exactly?
Coffeeking - no they are not vast gains on motorways and dual carriageways. A few minutes in the hour - you don't spend enough time going faster to make a significant difference. Hence my use of 60 and 70 mph in the sums. I have proven this before and there are many examples of it. Because you constantly accelerate and decelerate to and from the higher speeds you spend little time at the higher speeds and as in the sums I did above it makes a very small difference.Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway
If you get caught out by lights and people driving slowly, hence stuck at 30-40 in 60s and stopped for approximately 20% of the time on an otherwise 60mph road journey, it makes no significant difference? I'm not sure how you've proved that? Having completed the same 20 mile commute for 9 years, some days driving quick, some slow, some in rush hour, some not depending on "shift", I'm fairly able to make the judgement that I could shave over 15 minutes off my 1 hr commute time just by being a little more assertive with my driving, rather than dallying along like half the morning folk. 25%. Thats a fairly hefty difference. But your milage seems to vary from mine.
How come the French can get motorway driving right, and we fail so badly?
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Btw the reason French motorways are so much better is that the population density is about half ours, and you have to pay to use the motorways so their upkeep is assured and they get a lot less traffic.
Driving from Cardiff to London at 80 saves about 11 mins from a 2 hour journey over driving at 70.
Driving as fast as you possibly can though does get you places quickly. A mate of mine had to drop me off at the airport after a Polaris, and we basically forgot that I had a flight to catch so ended up terribly late. He basically floored it in his 2l non turbo Subaru, and did it in about 2 hours something from the Western lakes. To be honest I'd rather have missed my flight than risk him lose his license but he seemed game.
EDIT: We desperately need motorway driving skills on our driving test. Even if it's a simualtor for peopel who cant' get to motorways.
They're flashing you, probably, because you're sat in a lane when you could be over one lane. It doesnt matter what speed they're doing, or what speed you're doing, if you're in a lane when you should be in the one to the left, you're in the wrong
I do obey lane discipline and have had it happen numerous times when overtaking folk (how come more people seem to sit at around 60 in the middle lane these days??).
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway.
Well I can certainly save 2-3 minutes by overtaking people on my ~10 minute commute. Of course as I said above it all depends whether you describe all overtaking (according to the rules of the HC) as driving like a c*ck - though I was assuming that a smooth cruise excluded dropping a cog and flooring it.
coffeeking - Member
....the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure...
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.
There is a wide variance in skills etc. If you can't accept that maybe you shouldn't be on the road. A race track maybe.
Flashing him is not friendly
i agree, im sure your a nice chap and all ;), but if you pulled up behind me and flashed your lights, sadly i would think what a knob.
i don't hog the outside lane though, its scary in a 1.4 9 year old fiesta 😉
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.
Many of them wouldn't pass it if taken again though, and I'd suggest a majority wouldn't pass if they were assessed on their day to day driving (in the interests of fairness I'd probably fail that!)
TJ i think you are enjoying calling me a cock today, you sure you dont drive a beemer!!!
so what if i got upto 100mph for all of a second with clear roads in front of me(apart from mr bmw) ive been driving for over 15 years now and havent got any points thank you.
ive also done a few track days and would like to think i know how to handle a car , all of which is beside the point.
so today you think that mr beemer is ok to sit at 60 in the outside lane causing all the traffic behind to build up and that i should of just dropped into the middle lane and gone slower so i dont undertake mr amazing sat in the outside lane............
get a grip man it doesnt happen like that in real life!!!
EDIT monkey boy i flashed him once at a safe distance so not to scare him after i had followed him for quite a while
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.
Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
[i]on the continent although they drive up your arse and at stupid speeds, most drivers do not hog the middle and outer lanes [/i]
Somebody who's never driven in The Netherlands then? The Germans even comment about how they come up behind a middle-laner and it'll have yellow number plates.
As to driving fast doesn't get you there quicker, thats bollocks.
My house to my folks is 350 miles. If I never exceeed the speed limit it will take me a minimum of 7 hours, often longer (70 mph for 250 miles and 60 mph for 100 miles plus time sat in queues plus eating/resting time). But when I floor it with just myself in the car at a quiet time, I've managed it in 4 hours without stopping.
Or - I regularly use to travel from south of Leeds to north of Newcastle, by driving quick I could commute it rather than stay-over - result, wife happy.
Renton,
Just a thought, if say, the Clio had been a Police car, would you have altered the way you would have dealt with the BMW?
Not trying to have a go, just curious.
ski ....
no i wouldnt , hopefully the cooper would have seen what was occuring and pull the beemer driver over for obstructing the traffic, incorrect lane discipline etc etc
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Ditto.
I've driven abroad quite a lot and the standard of driving is no better.
I recall driving from Munich into Austria on a skiing holiday. The density of traffic was very high and the number of accidents and ridiculous examples of speeding, tailgating etc was outrageous, far worse than anything I have seen even in rush hour on the M6 or M25!
TandemJeremy - Member
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
How would it have cost only a few seconds to go from 60 down to 55 and stay at that speed as the car isn't changing lane raher than the 70 that he is allowed to do.
It is agains the law to drive in the incorrect lane of a dual carrigeway/motorway.
Over a very short journey (distance wise) then a high speed save you very little. But if i was to drive from my house to my mother inlaws at 60 then rather than the 11 odd hours it takes at 80 it would take a hell of a lot longer. (80 is legal as we are talking continetal europe).
I am getting a BMW as a Company Car in 3 weeks time. Think i will stick to trail centres 😆
True renton
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway, car indicators seem to suddenly start working, spaces between cars increase and speeds are reduced 😉
I had a motorway accident a few years back in which I was very lucky not to get hurt badly from and it changed my driving style dramatically.
Still remember the police office who dealt with me at the scene, saying an off the cuff remark, "I know you weren't speeding as you are still breathing!"
That had a big impact on me.
Now I am the sad person sat in the inside lane following whatever at a safe distance 😉
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway ... and speeds are reduced
Yeah, to 65mph. Muppets.
I can't quite believe this has managed to go on for so long, but it is quite amusing.....
You CAN undertake; unless you are doing it in a stupid manner you will not get pulled for it.
So, how is the act of undertaking 'driving like a c0ck'?
As for the whole 'hardly makes a difference in time' arguement - that's a load of old toot.
A mate of mine I go riding with generally drives faster than I do. We have on several occasions left work at the same time (we used to work at the same place) and off he'd go at a much faster speed than me. I think it's about a 35mile drive to the car park we'd leave the cars at. By the time I had arrived, he'd already have his bike out of the car, lights fitted, other kit out and would be sat there (or getting changed). He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.
Also on the way home it is a 60 mile journey, I know that if I am not in a rush it takes me about 1hr 25mins. If I am going hell for leather to get home, I have managed it in 1hr 9mins. Which means I can get to the fish & chip shop, buy my dinner, get it home, serve it up & have eaten half of it in the time it takes to just get home had I been driving 'normally'.
As for the outrage of cyclists daring to discuss the matter of undertaking......erm......what has that got to do with anything? Undertaking a slow moving car sat in the outside lane implies nothing about how I would handle driving situations near a cyclist.
I must have undertaken hundreds of cars and have never even come close to having an incident.
Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.
He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.
...and would then have to wait for you to kit up anyway.
So all that extra fuel burnt, stress, anger, rage, pent up sexual angst, furious masturbatory activity etc etc, & not forgetting the undertaking, it was all for nothing.
😉
True - but he does get to whinge at me for being so slow & what he does with this time is irrelevant in the context of this rather heated debate.
Now stop being picky, this is a serious discussion 😉
will undoubtably be because you flashed him, if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
or if you were on a motor bike, indicate left as soon as you went for the indicate (as that tends to cause brown leathers)
i wouldnt have been doing 60 though, but stop being an impatient tool?
were you in an audi?
FYI, "european" for "i wish to be going faster than you but you are in my way" is to put your right (or in thier case left) indicator on.
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
Having admitted to two undesirable driving traits, would you also admit to finding yourself in a position where you were in the right lane of a motorway with the lane on your left empty such that you could move over?
I'm not reading all that!
Someone sumarise.
Oh and from the very first thread - why didn't you judge speed up and nudge him with your bumper? Bet he would have moved then 😉
Olly - Member
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
Mine are unless i pay volvo a lot of money to turn them off. I can even scan and post the bit in the FM if you want.
From the highway code - note the wording is different to how it used to be
# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
Do you think people driving similar levels of cars to BMW (eg Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Porsche) also complain about "BMW drivers" constantly?
Smacks of envy imo.
(ps I don't even drive, let alone own a BMW)
[i]Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.[/i]
What is this "AIM" to which you refer? ;-)?
Yes, the IAM encourage use of headlights, for one purpose and one purpose ONLY, as the Highway Code says, [b]to alert someone to your presence[/b], that does [u]not[/u] include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
Though if they continue to sit there with an empty left lane after the first time you've flashed to say "I am here", the only logical conclusion is that they didn't notice the first time, so it's perfectly reasonable to try and help them notice you again. What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?
Its a real shame that Top Gear don't find some way of making good driving techniques fashionable.
[i]What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code? [/i]
No 'secret code' 🙂 it comes down to the 'reasonableness' test, as set out in section 3 Road Traffic Act 1988.
"when the driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and careful driver in all circumstances of the case"
That 'test' is an objective one there is no 'exact' definition. Failing to observe the Highway Code (the basic rules of the road) is not an offence in itself but may constitute evidence of careless or dangerous driving.
So take a couple of examples:
I'm sat in Lane 1 in an umarked car doing 56 with the heavies, one of which has moved out to Lane 2 to overtake a slower moving vehicle.
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.
That's intimidation. He would get a pull, words of advice and dependant upon attitude and other checks possibly a FPN, possibly a summons even dependant upon aggrivating factors (wet road, weather conditions etc).
Same situation but Lane 2 is clear, vehicle is cruising in Lane 3 at below 70, failing to keep to the left as per HC (Rule 265) vehicle approaching doing 70 in Lane 3 gives one long (4-5 second) flash to alert driver in Lane 3 who see's him in his mirror and moves to Lane 2.
If he doesn't move to Lane 2? Hang back, leaving at least two seconds, more in the wet. Look at the manner of driving, can you see them looking in their mirror? Are they being deliberately obstructive or have they not seen you? If the latter, try another long head lamp flash. If still don't move, if for some reason they are being deliberately obstructive, DON'T rise to the challenge, rise above it. Move into Lane 2 yourself perhaps, hang back and wait for them to move over.
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.That's intimidation.
Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.
Got a better example?
I take it you are a rozzer then analogue andy?
Is undertaking justified then?
Renton - have to admit over the last 25+ years of driving motorbikes and cars that I have undertook more than once, but it does lead to the situation you found yourself in more often than is acceptable. So now I'm older and wiser I dont do it anymore and thats from experience, better to bide your time.
I will also share with you a true story which happened to me about one year ago.
I was driving south on the M74 a night on a Sunday with all the family on board (in a BMW saloon btw!), the motorway was very empty as it was late evening. There was a large pick up truck with a crew cab cruising down the outside lane at about 60mph. After a while I gave him a polite short single flash to remind him of correct procedure to pull over to inside lane.
He immediately rammed on his brakes and whilst swerving all over the road he eventually stopped in the middle of the two lane motorway on a sweeping right hand turn!! I am now stopped behind him after an emergency stop on a turn, on a motorway, at night, with my wife and kids in the car. He then engages reverse and the window at the back starts to wind down. There was enough space between him and the crash barrier for me to get out of a potentially hostile and dangerous situation, which I did instantly.
All that from a "friendly" flash, and no speeding or tailgaiting..very scary. I didnt have time to get his number needless to say.
Its not worth it.
I have since changed what was a inconspicous dark blue beemer to a bright red one (bought it for the diesel engine not the colour) with tinted windows and its very noticeable how much people cut you up just because of the car.
2 Audis almost killed me tonight. Both driven by women.
One rounded a corner on my side of the road and had to swerve to avoid me.
The other approached a give way junction and shot straight out.
Both times I had to perform an emergency stop.
F*cking ar$eholes.
I'd say there are a number of people who drive flash cars think they can get away with obnoxious driving because there car is 'the ultimate driving machine' and will be able to make up for their poor driving by being well engineered, good brakes, engine etc.
If there was no traffic in the middle lane for 1/2 mile or so, what was the OP doing in the outside lane in the first place? I "undertake" all the time but without all the flashing lights fuss... just have to keep your wits about you, daresay I'll get pulled one day.
TJ - my experience is that cyclists are the worst drivers, my brother said he didn't care if he got a ban because he cycled almost everywhere anyway
[i]Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.[/i]
That was the point exactly, the flashing cannot be taken in isolation but needs to be put into context. How the flash is delivered matters.
Another example then,
I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
Another example: I often use a head-lamp flash as a warning when I'm about to overtake a wide vehicle / van with no interior mirror / more than one vehicle on a single carriageway road - again to help alert them to my presence.
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good - you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that 😉 )
I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
You still have time to correct that.
TandemJeremy - MemberIs undertaking justified then?
Would take too long to explain the rare circumstances when overtaking on the left is permitted, with care, but no, 'undertaking' is not.
'Undertaking' is a very apt name for it. People don't expect to be passed on the inside and, if they do pull across, the 'undertaker' is at fault.
Far better as I already said, to hang back for a few seconds, avoid the conflict and invariably it sorts itself out.
Back to renton and his rush to get to work, he may save a few minutes (does he run from the house to the car and from the car park to his place of work I wonder?) but is it really worth it? Better to leave on time to arrive on time than leave late and never get there.
Shaving just a few mph off your speed makes a huge difference in terms of safety and your ability to control things but little real difference to journey times.
An average 35 mile commute. How much time would you save doing it at an average 80mph as opposed to an average 65mph? (Clue 6 minutes)
Back to TJs associated 'why' thread. 3,000 are killed on the roads every year, 250,000 seriously injured ('serious' means life changing). Everyone knows someone (if not themselves) who's been affected by an event on the roads. Road deaths are the biggest killer of under 25 year old males. Almost all of those deaths and serious injuries are down to the human behind the wheel (they are not "accidents") they are caused by a deliberate act or by deliberately not paying sufficent attention and are entirely preventable.
B.A.Nana - MemberI'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
You still have time to correct that.
Too late, and it's too late. You know what I meant 😉
Thanks for that Andy - so that is pretty much what I said. I just can't believe how many folk think undertaking is justifiable - on this and the other thread.
Oh - and to average 80 you need to spend a lot of time above 100 to make up for the time you are at 60 mph
*shakes head*
[i]aracer - Member
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good - you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that ) [/i]
We're not agreed at all I'm afraid. Qualify 'repeated' for me? How many times and how often? Have they seen you and are being deliberately obstructive? How can you tell?
As already said, if you know they've seen you and are being deliberately obstructive the answer is not to sit there repeatedly flashing them, even if you are sat at what you might consider a 'safe distance'. Drop back further, into Lane 2 if it's clear and let them move over. They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.
Indeed it is Andy.
For me, I probably drove like Renton when I had a company car, everything paid for by someone else. Now, owning my car, I drive completely differently. My driving style now has a direct impact on my insurance, amount of fuel I use, wear and tear and therefore ultimately, cash in my pocket. Some people say it's about becoming older and wiser, but for me, my driving style changed dramatically on losing the company car I had from aged 19 to 29.
As already said, if you know they've seen you
How can you possibly know? More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there?
They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.
That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.
[i]How can you possibly know? [/i]
Can you see their mirror? Can you see them looking in their mirror? (Head movements)? (I'm not suggesting you get that close 😉
[i]More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there? [/i]
Comes back again to judgement, general manner of their driving not only in relation to the headlamp flash. Plus as said, if you were pulled it would not be 'just' for the flash but for getting too close for example. When you were stopped they'd ask you, "why have a I pulled you".. "You were flashing the car in front, would you like to tell me why?"
That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.
This is the thing that bugs me with driving in this country is that most people don't seem to understand lane disapline. How many times have you been bhind some one in lane 2 of a dual carrige way as they want to turn right on the third roundabout ahead or that right trun 2 miles away. I have also seen plenty of cars late at night pull on to the motorway straight in to lane 2 even though the only other car to be seen is me and im going faster than them.
AnalogueAndy - yeah that'll be the IAM - I thought the acronym looked wrong. Or, wheel shufflers, if you'd prefer?
So, you slow down & wait for them to pull over?? How long do you wait? I have seen many instances on sections of the A1 where someone refuses to move out of lane 2. Even when people start to undertake they still sit there in 'their' lane for miles & miles.
Must you slow your journey down indefinitely because someone else is too ignorant/arrogant/stupid/unaware or whatever else causes it to use the correct lane?
And at no point did the OP say that the flashing of lights was 'aggressive' but this seems to have been assumed by all the 'holier than thou' brigade.
For the record i flashed him once for no longer than two seconds.
i would class his flashing at me once everyother second for about a mile aggresive .
i had sat behind him for at least half a mile and it was clear he didnt want to move over.
i bet the clio had sat behind him for a bit to before i caught them up.
it was clear that he wasnt going to move over, sorry couldnt see his eyes in the mirror as a, i wasnt close enough and b, it was dark.
Alot of people are making the link between speed and safety, which is fair enough, but what about the link between awareness and saftey?
Surely doing 80 mph, using your mirrors, aware of whats going on around you is safer that doing 65 mph in the middle lane completely oblivious to every thing around you??
As 2 who middle lane hoggs, its all types of cars. However the difference is that people in BM's, Mercs, Range Rovers etc for some reason take a lot more offence when you point out what a d!ck they are being