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I may take the piss out of the Fire brigade but this is just brilliant. Well done.
https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2018/12/20/firefighters-win-major-pension-legal-case-against-government
Could this have wider implications then, as the civil service pension scheme was revamped in the same way at the same time based on age?
Maybe.
It is very good indeed I'm currently looking at doing an extra 8 years more than I signed up for, for less money and at a higher monthly cost. Bargain.
Shame it was only the fbu that took it on
It really did make no sense, my mate can retire in 3 years as he planned as he is older than me despite me having 9 years extra in a 30 year scheme, and me being moved to a worse scheme and told to do more years. If that's not age discrimination then I don't know what is
firestarter
Not surprised you're not in the FBU....
I most certainly am I the fbu pete I'm no scab
Firefighters remind me of British Leyland of the '70s but with cracking pensions, so many on their horizontal platforms through the night, doing homers through the day, big car park at their work station, comparing them to nurses on their feet for 12 hr shifts they get it so easy maybe not in the big cities but not many fires now
firestarter
Soz, was going on the name!
Redmex so much bollocks in that post I'm not even replying
Yup not all nurses work 12 hours. 😬
Anyway I created this thread to pat you guys on the back.
Firefighters remind me of British Leyland of the ’70s
What are you on about?
I’m no scab
Oh, as you were.
Firefighters remind me of British Leyland of the ’70s but with cracking pensions, so many on their horizontal platforms through the night, doing homers through the day, big car park at their work station, comparing them to nurses on their feet for 12 hr shifts they get it so easy maybe not in the big cities but not many fires now
Redmex the 1970's are calling and wanting you to return your out of date view of the FS
Thats because despite what you read in the daily fail we do way more than fight fires now.
As for the platforms, take them away. I've said that from the day I joined but the employers will have to pay us a shift allowance for the 14/16 hr nights My NHS wife gets shift allowance for nights/weekends I get nothing. As for the pension I pay over £460 a month 14.7% of my salary for the privilege of my cracking pension.
Today is a fantastic day for those affected, personally I was protected due to being an old bastid. Well done the FBU. I'm hoping this will make changes to other sectors.
I get nothing
That's not quite true is it?
£460 a month 14.7% of my salary
Sounds like you're getting pretty reasonable remuneration, well in excess of the national average.
and what of it? if you stuck in at school maybe you could've joined up. Its a career choice open to all, but not all at suitable. 😏
Sounds like you’re getting pretty reasonable remuneration, well in excess of the national average.
Yup paying in extra gets you more.
and what of it?
That you get far from nothing. Apologies for not making that clear.
That you get far from nothing. Apologies for not making that clear.
Which is not what he argued.
Its a career choice open to all, but not all at suitable.
Well the army seem to cope with the role reasonably well on a much lesser wage whenever you fancy extra hollibobs. 😉
Well the army seem cope with the role reasonably well on a much lesser wage whenever you fancy extra hollibobs.
Well it does give the squaddies something to do when they are bored and running around the northumbrian countryside for weeks on end.
Which is not what he argued.
He pointed out he doesn't get a shift allowance, as many people don't. I pointed out that he does get quite a handsome wage in lieu of his lack of allowance. Apologies for not making that clear.
He pointed out he doesn’t get a shift allowance, as many people don’t. I pointed out that he does get quite a handsome wage in lieu of his lack of allowance. Apologies for not making that clear.
Stop being a pathetic troll.
Well it does give the squaddies something to do when they are bored and running around the northumbrian countryside for weeks on end.
I'm sure they look forward to the extra excitement of fighting fires with scant training and out-dated equipment. 🙂
Yup not all nurses work 12 hours. 😬
Word, as of April the Mrs works 08:30 to 16:30 M-F, no BH or weekends for £37k a year, pension costs a fortune though. It’ll be great when she retires but it’s expensive to pay into.
Stop being a pathetic troll.
Go **** yourself.
If you disagree, say so. If you want to start calling names at least do it with conviction, you coward.
Oh dear!
I most certainly am I the fbu pete I’m no scab
:rolleyes:
My NHS wife gets shift allowance for nights/weekends I get nothing. As for the pension I pay over £460 a month 14.7% of my salary for the privilege of my cracking pension.
£38k? Awww diddums about your shift allowance.
I’m also a category one responder like the blue light services, I’m on 2/3rds of that and our pensions were changed dramatically a a few years ago. But that didn’t get in the news because we aren’t the brave firefighters (who I’ve worked with plenty of times). I also get essentially 20% less than I did 10 years ago because my pay has been restricted to a max 1% increase for as long as I can remember. I’ve been assaulted in my work too.
£38k? I’ll sign up for that even with the “crappy” version of the pension.
I’m not sure it will have wider implications - my reading of it is that a big part of it hinges on the specific physical requirements of being a firefighter - not sure the same argument could be applied to the majority of civil servants?
It won on the it disxrimnated against the younger members. I got moved onto a different scehme after paying in for 26 years as I wasn't old enough to be protected, I now face working until I'm 68.
Instead of retiring at 55 due to physical requirements they should be transferred into some other role until 65 and then get their pension.
Instead of retiring at 55 due to physical requirements they should be transferred into some other role until 65 and then get their pension.
That option was removed.
I feel your pain public sector workers...strike on and don't let anyone undermine your solidarity brothers.
I’m also a category one responder like the blue light services, I’m on 2/3rds
So about the same as basic fire fighter.
Didn't realise the AA paid so much.
You've obviously misread the 38k post charlie that was an nhs workers salary not a fire fighters
And the fbu approached the nhs police and various other shafted by the govt groups to be told to go it alone perhaps if others had fought too their pension fight may have had positive news too
Yup, great for FBU members but thanks to the way that public-sector pensions are funded from expenditure means more costs to the taxpayer. Travesty the way that successive Governments have chronically failed in their 'investment', selling-off public assets and giving tax-breaks when the extra money should have been invested in pensions and other long-term commitments.
The NHS is a different pension scheme Firestarter, there’s around 3 different ones for the NHS.
Yup, great for FBU members but thanks to the way that public-sector pensions are funded from expenditure means more costs to the taxpayer.
Yep, money has to come from somewhere, and needs to be there when you actually retire, next few months will see if there needs to be any more trimming from the budget.
I'm made up for the firefighters today. Well done to the FBU for standing up for the rights of its members. Unfortunately for the police our national federation meekly accepted the shafting that was dished out to us so we have had to fund our own pension challenge without their backing. Even today in Light of the FBU victory they're holding back from showing any signs of real commitment to supporting their members. Congrats to those who do a job that many couldn't or wouldn't do.
Drac we currently have 3 pensions running too mate
I feel your pain public sector workers…strike on and don’t let anyone undermine your solidarity brothers.
Yep, we should shut up because you've been so useless at protecting your terms and conditions.
I came on this thread hoping to add my happiness that I may not have to work 9 years longer than I signed up to for no benefit whilst paying 4K a year extra, losing 30k off my agreed terms and losing 12k a year for 9 years extra I had to work due to the hard work of my union and the solidarity of the members in the face of a hostile and dishonest government, complicit employers, cowardly and grasping contemporaries all backed up by a vile media that thinks nothing of bare faced lies.
Unfortunately I found a bunch of bitter idiots with chips on their shoulders that seem to resent those of us who dare to stick up for ourselves.
Don’t forget that this was a legal case and the government was found to have discriminated against a group of workers. Nothing to do with conditions, beds, shifts, pay, etc. Discrimination.
It would have been nice if it wasn’t just us and the judges that decided to stick up for ourselves as we might have got here sooner. No matter, i’m Sure plenty will now jump on our shoulders. Don’t worry though as the fitness tests we now have to pass (or face the sack) mean we should be able to carry you, even if the governments own research suggests we won’t be able to post 55.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling but i’ve Had a few drinks to celebrate the possibility that I may get the chance to retire in 10 years on the terms I signed up to.
F you on here who react to our achievements with envy and bitterness. If you got up off your knees for a minute you might achieve something yourself.
^^^ well said. There’s far too much bitterness from the ‘I haven’t got what you have, so I begrudge you having it’ brigade. Well done the FBU.
I feel your pain public sector workers…strike on and don’t let anyone undermine your solidarity brothers.
"research from campaign group the Taxpayers’ Alliance has found."
That'll be lies and misinformation then.
Whenever the idea of 'gold plated' Public Sector pensions come up, one thing that's rarely mentioned is the cost - it's pretty high to say the least, I'm pretty sure if those of us in the private section would be happy to hand over 9% of our pre-tax income (rates vary depending on income level) into a private pension for 30 years (that's 9% of our own money, not 5% topped up by our employer) we'd be "sitting pretty" too.
The truth is that most UK employees want a decent pension from their employer, but would rather not pay for it, millions of people we're dragged kicking and screaming into auto-enrolment and even then millions of them opted out.
The cost of a scheme which pays out after one 30 years is much more than 9% per annum, which frankly buys you bugger all.
Unfortunately I found a bunch of bitter idiots with chips on their shoulders that seem to resent those of us who dare to stick up for ourselves.
Quite. I've been on strike to protect my pension, and would do so again.
Mefty, everyone on the 30 year scheme paid significantly more than 9%.
Us cops love the firebrigade/waterfairies. Who else is there to look up to us in awe...
(Seriously, bravo the FBU. And more importantly a big thank you to all who are working this Xmas)
"Whenever the idea of ‘gold plated’ Public Sector pensions come up, one thing that’s rarely mentioned is the cost "
No you're right they don't....
I'm neither bitter nor an idiot but people need to know this is a zero sum game and the money needs to come from somewhere and it will be our children by both taxation and reduced services.
"The government had £1.3tn in unfunded public sector DB pension liabilities at the end of March 2016. Teachers, firefighters and doctors are among the public sector workers who fall under the umbrella."
Kudos for looking after yourselves and fighting for what you believe is your rightful inheritance but don't get all shouty with me if I don't share your joy. Emotions like 'jealousy' and 'envy' don't come into it.
Kudos for looking after yourselves and fighting for what you believe is your rightful inheritance but don’t get all shouty with me if I don’t share your joy.
Some people are going to get what they were told they would get when they signed up to the job, and some who were going to face discrimination now won't. I'm not a fireman but I feel a bit of joy about that.
It's not a 'rightful inheritance', it's the conditions that we signed up to and to which we kept our side of the bargain. Various governments spent our pension pot when there was huge surplus so excuse me for not feeling sorry that they now have a bill to pay.
This ruling does not mean everyone in the Public Sector will go back on to cast iron, gold plated (etc, etc) pensions, it means people who have been proven in law to have been discriminated against by their employer should get justice. It won't close the new career average schemes and will not mean we all move on to a 30 year final salary. Since 2006 new starters have been on a 40 year scheme anyway.
Congrats to the firemen and please accept my best wishes. There is far too much abuse of public sector workers taking place, both here on the forum and out in the world. One for the critics on here: if we were to arbitrarily take away 20% of your future income and tell you that you will have to wait to get that, would you be pleased? Again, I signed up over 30 years ago to a scheme that 'promised' certain benefits at age 60, which I will not now receive until at least 67 but at a significantly reduced rate. in my early years, we were told by the employer and the government of the day that our pension of the future would make up for the repeated under inflation pay rises given out year after year. Now, like the firemnen, the pensions have been undermined. I for one would simply tax the vast off-shore profits and assets of both the multi-nationals and the privileged. We've plenty of money for vanity projects like refurbing Westminster or Crossrail but none at all when nurses or civil servants have suffered over ten years of pay cuts.
Just don't get me started on foodbanks, Universal Credit sanctions and the associated abuse of whole sections of society.
chestrockwell
Member
It’s not a ‘rightful inheritance’, it’s the conditions that we signed up to and to which we kept our side of the bargain.
Yup, basically this simple.
Also, this is more or less an aside but remember this next time the government claim that emergency service strikes put people at risk- in this case, the FBU strike was in pursuit of something that we now know was actually a legal obligation. it should never have led to a strike, or in fact a dispute at all- if the government had conducted themselves properly and lawfully they wouldn't have pulled this shit in the first place. All responsibility for that risk they claim exist, can only lie with them
I’m neither bitter nor an idiot but people need to know this is a zero sum game and the money needs to come from somewhere and it will be our children by both taxation and reduced services.
Yes, complying with the law sometimes costs money.
You can't retire people at 55 on a decent pension when life expectancy is 80 odd years. It's just not affordable. Something has to give.
people need to know this is a zero sum game and the money needs to come from somewhere and it will be our children by both taxation and reduced services.
This. People complain about austerity and then want to pay healthy 55 year olds to play golf for the rest of their lives.
You can’t retire people at 55 on a decent pension when life expectancy is 80 odd years. It’s just not affordable. Something has to give.
Ridiculous statement. This was the remuneration package agreed by both parties at the outset. Erroding the value of the package is simply a deferred paycut, cynically calculated to receive less resistance than an immediate pay cut. This has worked with the NHS, sadly, due to weak unions and a disunited workforce. Bravo to the FBU for having the courage and staying power to stand up for its members rights, and bravo to the FBU members for not falling for the anti union rhetoric that is so prevalent in workplaces these days. Well done.
If you disagree, say so. If you want to start calling names at least do it with conviction, you coward.
I disagree; see above. I also think you are portraying yourself as a nasty, jealous, angry and small minded person, which I don’t think you always do. So that’s a shame.
You can’t retire people at 55 on a decent pension when life expectancy is 80 odd years. It’s just not affordable. Something has to give.
Yes. Tax avoidance, tax loops holes, unnecessary projects such as the nuclear missile replacements, bribing DUP, paying billions to leave a market that makes us billions and if need be a small increase on personal tax.
Still it's far better make them work until they're nearly 70 so chances are they'll die soon after retirement or suffering a life changing illness so costing the tax payer more. But that's Ok as it's their fault the government broke the law.
And would have cost less money, had they done so in the first place rather than dragging it out for years
But that’s Ok as it’s their fault the government broke the law.
Eh?
And would have cost less money, had they done so in the first place rather than dragging it out for years
Although we're told "This has worked with the NHS, sadly, due to weak unions and a disunited workforce". So seemingly worth a punt.
(Teachers got their pensions reduced as well, to my direct cost, so perhaps it worked on them too.)
So seemingly worth a punt.
To make pecuniary gain from illegal and immoral endeavour? Yeah, that’s just what I expect of my government.
There’s a good chance that if you walk out of Tesco without paying for a couple of bottles of scotch you’ll get away with it; worth a punt too?
Best wishes to the fire fighters for their win, unless the governmnet goes to appeal.
But where is the extra cash going to be coming from, the fire service has seen huge cutbacks and reduced staffing is there any more to cut to save cash to pay it out on pensions.
Andrew Short QC, Lydia Seymour and Naomi Ling have been successful in the Court of Appeal in the claims of more than 200 judges and 6000 firefighters for age discrimination, equal pay and race discrimination.
The Court of Appeal held that transitional protections that sheltered older judges and firefighters from the significant reductions in pensions entitlements which the claimants suffered as a result of the public sector pensions changes in 2015, were unlawfully discriminatory.
It made findings on the correct approach to take to the exercise of objective justification where the state has a legitimate interest in the issue. It also held that the desire to protect older judges/firefighters when they would have been least affected by the 2015 changes was ‘irrational’ and that the absence of evidence supporting this aim meant that there was no basis on which it could have been found to be legitimate.
The Court of Appeal also found that the age protection was indirectly discriminatory on the grounds of sex and race and gave guidance on the application of the Supreme Court judgments of Essop and Naeem.
Permission to appeal has not been granted.
The full judgment is available to read here.
I find it quite funny when people complain about fire and police pensions. Moaning about their private sector pensions been so poor.
To me front line emergency services and the military pensions should be a special case and pay well. It is the reward for working nights missing special occasions, children's birthdays etc. It is the reward for being assaulted, shot, trying to save a life.
The fact many people complain about this shows what a sad horrible society we have become. We have around 500,000 front line line staff not really a huge amount.
I didn't join the police to get rich and I certainly didn't join for the pension but I saw it as the reward for the huge personal till it takes on you and your family.
And working to 55 is pretty fair when you have to carry fire equipment, people or arrest some drugged up violent 20 year old.
Everything seems to be a race to the bottom these days.
Well done FBU.
What does this mean for other services who’s pension suffered the same changes (increase % and change of retirement age to NRA currently 68)
Flood gates open and reinstatement of original terms when you signed the contract¿
Precisely Supercarp.
I had a brain melt late last year it put me off for months I'll never fully recover the damage is decades old. I have small moments every now and then occasionally more than once a day everyday. I'm better at controlling it now I'm aware but I know I'm only one memory or one shit job from entering another deep and dark pit.
This little blog sums it up.
https://emergency-services.news/?p=6200
We are all (I’m talking specifically ambo but not excluding other jobs, it’s just what I know) damaged by our job, Drac, and in ways we, let alone others don’t fully understand or realise I think. Recently (and I’m sure you’ll relate) I’ve come to realise just how differently we react to stuff compared to folk in ‘normal’ jobs. Sometimes it feels like I can’t feel emotions like other people any more; sort of cold and dead inside, other times I feel almost normal. It ****s you up, our job. If you ever need to talk to someone who’s a stranger but will understand, inbox me bud.
Precisely that I can appear cold at times not having any emotions but it’s probably the polar opposite haven been told for years to not show them as it means your weak and shouldn’t be in the job. Thankfully those days are pretty much over and staff are much more open.
Cheers V8 and likewise as that’s what my job now involves.
We were always told we were in the wrong job in both the army and fire service if anything bothered you, it is changing now but it's still not great.
I've seen mass graves at 17 years old, ive done 3 tours of Bosnia and carried countless bodies from fires and car crashes. My way of dealing is by trying to just treat a person as a thing, hard with kids though especially when you have your own. Emotionally I'm pretty wrecked in all honesty, my dad said I was never the same after my best mate died next to me when we were both 17 in the army.
But that's a whole other thread, fingers crossed this is a good win for us, enjoy your Christmas I'm working nights christmas eve and day so get to see the kids open presents this year between nights, if they can wait til half eight lol
I’m back in Monday for 4 days at hopefully just 12 hours a day comes with the job but having been out today buying more presents and food I’m not really feeling it.
Hope you have a reasonable tour mate I won't say good, I know better than that haha
also back on monday, tuesday will be a struggle this year for us
Hahah! I love that meme popped up the last few years.
Taxpayers Alliance is not a campaign group or membership driven group. It's a lobbying/campaigning front for its odious and secretive right wing donors. It's a couple f shills in a Westminster office. You cannot accept anything they say at face value.
Always think that's quite revealing- groups campaigning for, frinstance, workers rights are generally totally open about it. Groups campaigning against it tend to dress themselves up as something else entirely- Taxpayer's Alliance being the perfect example. I reckon a good starting point in deciding what side you want to be on, is looking at the ones that'll tell you what they're trying to achieve, and the ones that'll try very hard to hide it
High five to other Fbu members and let’s hope it’s as good a result as we hope. Devil is in the details.
Fingers crossed this will benefit all the other services who the government have smashed the conditions of service.
To those displaying hostility towards us/the fbu/ public sector, please remember
It was determined in court the government acted illegally. No ifs, no buts.
Two separate occasions in court that only came about after lengthy attempts at discussions followed by last resort strikes before it was imposed.
I fell into the unprotected band with 15 years in the old scheme before being told I’ll have to work and contribute 10 years more to receive substantially less in the end - they tore up my pension contract and imposed a new one. Instead of 30 years it was now 40 whereas older colleagues on the same course as me were either fully protected, tapered protection or like me shafted. Based purely on age, not length of service.
I hope those within the service that didn’t support the actions and decided to profit are feeling that pang of guilt, but I doubt it as the ruling applies for them too.
And any private company ‘resilience’ firefighter reading this, You disgust me profiteering off the back of this. I’ve met your ilk and I hope you never get to pull on a tunic and play fire service again.
written whilst on nights
To those working over Christmas, I hope you get to spend some quality time with your loved ones. Stay safe and get home again.
and of course, not a mention on the news, same as when we were striking in london and brought westminster to a standstill. cant be having that made common knowledge.....