[Closed] Faslane

I dont believe that only 500 of 6000 jobs at Faslane are reliant on Trident, but even if that is the case an independant Scotland will surely not keep up levels of defence spending, especially as everyone loves us and we won't have the English dragging us into wars we don't want.
The locations and manpower at military bases in this country I assume are what is deemed neccessary for the defence of the UK. Perhaps eck has an attack strategy post independance.

[quote=athgray ]I dont believe that only 500 of 6000 jobs at Faslane are reliant on Trident,
It was the answer given by the MOD to a FoI request.

but even if that is the case an independant Scotland will surely not keep up levels of defence spending, especially as everyone loves us and we won't have the English dragging us into wars we don't want.
The locations and manpower at military bases in this country I assume are what is deemed neccessary for the defence of the UK. Perhaps eck has an attack strategy post independance.

Does the Guardian have a stance on independent Scotland? Cos this kinda stirring could influence the vote.

Really I never saw it sold up there - not even wrapping chips

I'd be happy to see the entire trident defence system sink to the bottom of the english channel and never be seen nor heard from again )apart from the crews - obviously), a contemptible waste of money.

athgray - Member
we won't have the English dragging us into wars we don't want..

Which wars?

Retro83. Iraq.
My post was meant tongue in cheek although it may not appear that way. I don't for a minute believe that is the case however the SNP would have many believe otherwise.

Fortunately we don't live as close to the threat of a nuclear war these days, but I wonder about the validity of placing a nuclear facility like Faslane so close to a major population centre.

The nature of Faslane is that it would have to be saturated with nuclear explosions to put it out of order.

Glasgow is right next door. There's a good chance the entire population would be wiped out or die lingering and painful deaths. I wonder why they didn't place this base in London? 🙂

In reality, it wouldn't have mattered. If there was a build-up to war, then the subs would have been dispersed to the dispersal moorings away from Faslane - those that didn't go straight to sea. So there would have been nukes targeted at pretty much everywhere - and Glasgow as a major industrial centre would definitely have been on the list, as would London.

The worry is more about accidents.

Fortunately we don't live as close to the threat of a nuclear war these days, but I wonder about the validity of placing a nuclear facility like Faslane so close to a major population centre.

The nature of Faslane is that it would have to be saturated with nuclear explosions to put it out of order.

Glasgow is right next door. There's a good chance the entire population would be wiped out or die lingering and painful deaths. I wonder why they didn't place this base in London?

Tongue in cheekness aside, Glasgow would have been on the Soviets' target list anyway - as would anywhere with an airfield with a reasonable length of tarmac runway in order to prevent the RAF using them as diversionary/dispersal sites...

bencooper - Member
In reality, it wouldn't have mattered. If there was a build-up to war, then the subs would have been dispersed to the dispersal moorings away from Faslane...

So it wouldn't have mattered if the base had been in central London then... 🙂

Glasgow is right next door. There's a good chance the entire population would be wiped out or die lingering and painful deaths. I wonder why they didn't place this base in London?

It's a long way from the Thames to the GUIK gap. It's not that far from the Clyde.

epicyclo - Member
winston_dog - Member
...Scottish Navy? What will that consist of?
The ships they are intending to build on the Clyde for the Scottish navy.

Really? What for? Are you going to invade the Isle of Man?

epicyclo - Member
winston_dog - Member
...Scottish Navy? What will that consist of?
The ships they are intending to build on the Clyde for the Scottish navy.

Really? What for? Are you going to invade the Isle of Man?

Why wouldn't Scotland want its own Navy? With the length of coastline present it would be daft not to.

Not as daft as you right enough you ignorant twunt.

winston_dog - Member
epicyclo - Member
winston_dog - Member
...Scottish Navy? What will that consist of?
The ships they are intending to build on the Clyde for the Scottish navy.
Really? What for? Are you going to invade the Isle of Man?

I think they're minesweepers for sinking foreign nuclear subs in our waters. 🙂

Dunno actually. Probably to protect oil and fishery assets.

Comes in, has a quick look around and scuttles off again so as not to get told off again for not liking slimy Alex...

I think they're minesweepers for sinking foreign nuclear subs in our waters.

Dunno actually. Probably to protect oil and fishery assets.

How would a minesweeper sink a sub?

Why wouldn't Scotland want its own Navy? With the length of coastline present it would be daft not to.

Not as daft as you right enough you ignorant twunt.

OOOhhhh! A twunt I may be but on this subject I am not ignorant!

Winston_dog .Where is the evidence of your lack of ignorance? Facts are conspicuous by their absence from your statements.

He hasn't demonstrated any ignorance. Albeit in a piss taking manner; he's asked a valid question, seeing as how we know salmond has stated the desire for a defence force rather than a proper military.

Where is the evidence of your lack of ignorance?

That's not how it works.

Comes in, has a quick look around and scuttles off again so as not to get told off again for not liking slimy Alex...

Liking Alex Salmond or not has nothing to do with independence.

OK. So the Scots are going to keep Military Warship building going on the Clyde after independence.

This is a facility that is struggling to stay open when it is building warships for the 5th biggest Navy in the World.

How is it going to stay open supplying ships for a "Scottish Defence Force"? Which will probably have a requirement for a few multi role patrol vessels?

Does Alex want to be an arms dealer and supply military systems to any dodgy state which wants them?

I was more thinking of the assertion that the mod is lying as their figures do not support the better together case.

'Does Alex want to be an arms dealer and supply military systems to any dodgy state which wants them?'
Isnt that the nature of the arms industry throughout the world?

Of course Scotland needs their own military

Wee Eck is planning to return Scotland to its former glory - he's off to Panama to recapture the Isthmus of Darien 😀

By the way:

The Spanish constitution prevents the splitting up of the Spanish nation so the circumstances are completely different.

So does the Scottish one:

Article 1 (name of the new kingdom)
That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, [b]and forever after,[/b] be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

Isnt that the nature of the arms industry throughout the world?

Yes of course it is, but I was under the impression that Alex didn't want his Kingdom to get involved in that sort of business?

There would be a lot of money around from not paying for the trident replacement. There's a big challenge ahead for shipbuilders in the event of a yes vote though. I'm still of the opinion that faslane does have a future without trident given the MoD figures.

winston_dog - Member
"I think they're minesweepers for sinking foreign nuclear subs in our waters."

How would a minesweeper sink a sub?

Easy. First you ram the subs snorkel, then the crew gathers at the rail and piddles down the snorkel tube. The sub fills up and then sinks. Simple, eh?

Dunno why I said minesweepers - the word should have been frigates or something similar.

I'm not quite sure why you will need even patrol vessels as we will be keeping the oil and the fishing rights after we divorce you.
Alex cannot be trusted with such valuable assets.

winston_dog - Member
I'm not quite sure why you will need even patrol vessels as we will be keeping the oil and the fishing rights after we divorce you.
Alex cannot be trusted with such valuable assets.

Mmm, we may have to send you some presents from Faslane if you try that... 🙂

There is a lot of inane drivel in Winstons posts on this topic.

Funny clip from a great film IMO, however not making much of a point. About as valid a portrayal of Scottish life as Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels is of inner city London. Think of another witty stereotype while I finish off a deep fried mars bar for breakfast.

Winston_dog you really ought to read the book.

I don't see how an independent Scotland could sustain a warship build industry or a deployable navy.

The UK defence build industry is limping by as we speak - in recent times (last 10years ish) we've built 6 ships with another 2 on their way. The future frigates arent guaranteed to be built in the UK (although I agree it's highly likely) so the throughput is so small it almost makes retaining the entire ship build infrastructure and skill sets almost pointless (from a business perspective anyway).

Secondly although Faslane could easily accommodate a navy - we've parked aircraft carriers in there before - one base for your national maritime force is clearly a target for would-be aggressors - you would be wise to spread your assets across 2 or more sites. So is there appetite to build another base - back in Rosyth for example?

Finally ships are built to work in groups so Scotland would need a number of types. Frigates are good anti-submarine hunters but really need a helicopter to make them work at their best. Hey can't offer air defence capability so you're looking at a supporting group of destroyers. These ships are a bit loud and grey so something stealthy and black to work "upstream" might be nice - so we're into the area of submarine ownership. Faslane has a number of routes in and out (once you're out of the loch) but nevertheless mining the entrance is easily achieved so you're going to need some mine hunters and sweepers too. So if you follow current wisdom you'd be looking at a navy only a bit smaller than our current one!

Of course you can just go down the coastal defence force line with the sole intent of defending coastline (fishery protection etc) and if it really goes belly up phone yer mates just the other side of your southern border.

Just my opinion obviously...

Of course you can just go down the coastal defence force line with the sole intent of defending coastline (fishery protection etc) and if it really goes belly up phone yer mates just the other side of your southern border.

Which is of course the sensible route, because an independent Scotland won't have the means or the motive to engage in military conflicts around the world. Most small countries manage without all that expensive floating hardware. England doesn't need it either, all this is based on a romantic "Britannia Rules The Waves" vision.

Occurs to me:

[i]"There are 520 civilian jobs at HM Naval Base Clyde, including Coulport and Faslane, that directly rely upon the Trident programme,"[/i]

Thats stating the jobs that rely on the trident programme - thats the missile system

It doesn't discuss the number of jobs that rely directly upon the vanguard submarines that carry them

And of course the other nuclear submarines that are based there - which have a similar logistic chain to the Vanguard, food, torpedo's, electronics, etc - if you move vanguard, then you move astute as well

and then there's the other nuclear weapons that would be based at coulport - depth charges etc, including nato stockpiles, that we would have to move to somewhere else.

so the jobs dictated as being reliant on trident, are just part of the overall picture of jobs that would be lost, because of you lose nuclear weapons, you essentially lose the whole reason for the NATO logistics chain to be located there.

Secondly although Faslane could easily accommodate a navy - we've parked aircraft carriers in there before

Didn't go so well last time we parked one there for the night 😯

bencooper - Member

The People's Empire of the North, Ireland and Scotland.

I like what you did there. 🙂

Most small countries manage without all that expensive floating hardware. England doesn't need it either, all this is based on a romantic "Britannia Rules The Waves" vision.

That's not entirely true, depending on what you mean by "need".

The Royal Navy is a very important asset when pursuing British neocolonialist policies. The Iraq War for example, in which the RN played a vital role, had very little to do with Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which were threaten the UK and a great deal to do with accessing Iraqi oil for UK companies.

[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/19/britain-iraq-oil-idUSLDE73I00J20110419 ]UK held talks with oil firms before Iraq invasion[/url]

[i]"Then trade minister Elizabeth Symons assured the oil group that the government believed British energy firms should be given a share of Iraq's oil and gas reserves, given Blair's commitment to U.S. plans."[/i]

British global military reach clearly helped to secure financial rewards for British companies which would not have been forthcoming if the RN had stayed in home waters.

The Empire might no longer exist but neocolonialism is a reality. Though it's worth remembering though that despite the propaganda British neocolonialism, like British imperialism before it, does not actually benefit the vast majority of ordinary British people - it simply facilitates the accumulation of wealth and inequality. EG, petrol isn't cheaper on the forecourts because Iraqi oil is now owned by British companies rather than Iraqi companies, despite the fact that ordinary British people have paid a very heavy price to secure Iraqi oil through taxation, and of course in blood.

British imperialism/neocolonialism "needs" a global military reach, the British people don't.

The jobs thing also need to be rethought - do we really want defence industry jobs?

It's funny that the same people who moan loudly about the cost of unemployment benefits are often very much in favour of very expensive make-work jobs in the defence industries. BAE Systems is the biggest benefits scrounger there is.

Secondly although Faslane could easily accommodate a navy - we've parked aircraft carriers in there before
Didn't go so well last time we parked one there for the night

If we're thinking about the same incident about 5 years ago then you'd be right! I was onboard for that one!

I thought it was hilarious! Arrived in work that morning to see hundreds of of matelows hanging around the NAAFI looking totally lost and like they'd just left the pub/club 😀

Ben,

I reckon that argument worth both ways to because very often those campaigning to keep British heavy industry going and prevent places like the shipyards and vickers closing are thoroughly opposed to. The military industrial complex and arms trading.

[img] [/img]

Why does that submarine still have union flags on it?

Surely if we leave the UK ben, the rest of the UK can fly what ever flag they like. It would not be Scotlands place to declare that the Saltire should be removed.

I think we should keep the flag as is, just to annoy the Scots....

Ahhhh isn't that nice ff a little memento of something that would no longer exist after a yes vote

Sounds a bit final. What would not exist gordimhor? Even the 'great' leader of the yes campaign is attempting a relaunch. Apparently a social and royal union will still exist. I would not be happy in the least at the breakup of the UK.

What would make you 'not happy' athgray? I'd like to turn the question round, from 'why become in dependant?' To 'why remain in the union?'

We are conditioned to believe that the union is normality, when in reality, across the world, independent countries are the norm.

I've lived in the west of Scotland all my life, and can't see what a Westminster mp has done for my area. I'd rather take the gamble, and I admit it's a ****in huge gamble, that a local msp may actually do more for my community than some ****in Tory Tarquin.

Would the orange order be pissed off with scotland for breaking up the union?

The Orange Order have already come out against independence.

Does that mean that every catholic will vote Yes?

British imperialism/neocolonialism "needs" a global military reach, the British people don't.

[quote=glupton1976 ]Does that mean that every catholic will vote Yes?
I wouldn't have thought so.

Who, in reality, gives a flying **** what the orange order thinks?

There is more to the union than politics, however if we stick to that then I am genuinely frightened. We have recently seen the mob handed approach and vindictive justice dealt out to opponents of the yes campaign. A first minister that refuses to condemn mob rule outright. I worry that reasonable people are being fooled by a leader that hides an anti English sentiment with chubby jovial charm.

[quote=athgray ] We have recently seen the mob handed approach and vindictive justice dealt out to opponents of the yes campaign.
Could you be a little less vague?

I worry that reasonable people are being fooled by a leader that hides an anti English sentiment with chubby jovial charm.

This interview should be considered a national embarrassment. The last comment is priceless! Nothing statesmanlike about the man, just a sense of parochial chippieness.

LOL - that's the best reason you can come up with for retaining the Union? Farage is a complete dick and deserved all the heckling he got from a crowd that included at least two Englishmen amongst its ringleaders.

Who, in reality, gives a flying **** what the orange order thinks?

+1, and no, I support their team too!!!

Okay, maybe you should explain why I should be embarrassed? He's right - Farrage got heckled because he's an odious man, and tried to turn it into a "Scots hate me because I'm English" story, which was bollocks.

And, again, what does liking Alex Salmond or not have to do with independence?

No scotroutes. My wife and kids are better reasons. However if politics is your game then the man above is a good start. He could potentially be our first prime minister. I think Farage is a dick also but you have no right to say who should have a voice in this country. It is also nice of you to point out the nationality of the crowd. It really did not cross my mind.

[i]Of course you can just go down the coastal defence force line with the sole intent of defending coastline (fishery protection etc) and if it really goes belly up phone yer mates just the other side of your southern border.[/i]

We wouldn't really need to call would we - as neither the US, UK-rump, Europe nor NATO would allow any 'infiltration' towards their 'space'.

All Scotland needs is coastal protection and search/rescue - so neither big ships, jets, tanks nor any of the big expensive hardware. Just spend any money on folk, so also keeping down unemployment.

If I was the yes vote I would pay for farage to do a tour tbh

[quote=athgray ]No scotroutes. My wife and kids are better reasons. So, explain why independence would be bad for them.

It is also nice of you to point out the nationality of the crowd. It really did not cross my mind.

Step back from the edge. We are Not voting for one particular person. We are voting for our future.

The MoD are now planning to keep Faslane if Scotland becomes independent:
Athgray that was how this thread started. A story Cameron was quick to deny but still one that came from the UK government typical of the better together campaign so far in that it has sought to alarm people with stories some of which have no basis in fact.
My point about the Union Jack was that it's rhe UK flag should any one of the member countries leave the UK as it was will no longer exist. Something else may take it's place maybe some sort social union under the same monarch. You might even call it the United Kingdom but it will be different from the current UK.

I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick. This seems not to be your idea of democracy. It seems that my family will also have to be well versed in Scots and Doric terms to be allowed to express a political opinion.

I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.

This seems not to be your idea of democracy.

It seems that my family will also have to be well versed in Scots and Doric terms to be allowed to express a political opinion.

Its pretty hard to debate as it seems to be driven by emotive arguments with little basis in fact

Good luck scotsroutes

I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.

How's the Wesminster parliament working right now, do you think? Scots haven't decided the outcome of a general election since before WWII at least - it doesn't matter how we vote, we don't have any effect on the government that rules over us.

So explain how independence would make that situation worse?

[quote=Junkyard ]
Good luck scotsroutes
😆

That's not much to ask Athgray I don't believe civil liberties are really in danger from the yes campaign , ,the snp or even from Alex Salmond ..Mr Farage is another matter . However I do believe he has the right to express his view no matter how half baked and offensive it is.

No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election, other than in a few swing constituencies. You could probably say the same about nearly every other area of the UK. Scotland has had great influence at Westminster over the years. Let's not forget that one Scottish born Prime Minister took us to war in Iraq ably followed up by the next Scottish Prime Minister, all based on false claims 'sexed up' by a Yorkshire born self proclaimed Scot, all belonging to a party we overwhelmingly brought to power. The annoying thing is we have the gallus to effectively claim it was someone else's fault. The SNP are amongst the worst to always twist events to suit their agenda.
If we are independent someone else will be the bad guy, just on a more marginalised scale.

No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election, other than in a few swing constituencies

PS you were arguing

I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.

The SNP are amongst the worst to always twist events to suit their agenda.

To be fair you have done exactly that by suggesting that Scotland is responsible for Tony Blair becoming PM and apparently the Iraq War.

It was a statement of fact Ernie, but if you won't give me that one then can I have the other three? Also, does not change the SNP comment.

Voting for independence isn't voting for the SNP.

To be fair you have done exactly that by suggesting that Scotland is responsible for Tony Blair becoming PM and apparently the Iraq War.

POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
athgray - Member
It was a statement of fact Ernie

No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election

Right so they both did it and yet an area of that size cannot do it

Junkyard.
I have previously said that I think that Holyrood works well. Not going into depth I think West Minster can learn a thing or two from it. I still hang on the hope that things can change there. I just do not like the idea that a line will be drawn that despite what anyone says will divide. There are no guarantees on currency, Europe, Defence, Monarchy, media and a whole range of things that may be different between two countries that I see are the same. I like the being part of a Greater Union that for better or worse puts us on a larger stage. I understand many on here may disagree as is their right.
I take it nobody else from the No camp is on tonight?

I like the being part of a Greater Union that for better or worse puts us on a larger stage