[Closed] Farage and Clegg Round two here we go !

Didn't watch the debate but if Farage promised to send all this European pollution and Saharan sand back where it came from, he gets my vote.

The lefty, hand wringing, tree embracing, back stabber loving, STW big hitters telling me not to.

One thing I don't understand about the right wing viewpoint is mentioned in the above. 'Tree embracing' used as a pejorative statement, as if taking care of the environment is a stupid thing.

I can't say I understand a worldview that has no respect for nature or our surroundings. Barking mad.

Damn EU, trying to remove transaction/import taxes, allowing people to move about without visas, cracking down on cartels that rip us off, keeping farms running through difficult times, funding business regeneration in our economically devastated ex-mining towns, cracking down on international criminals and terrorists, using collective power to stop China and the USA from smashing up our industries with insane tariffs. Oh, and that little thing about stopping European countries from repeatedly devastating their populations with wars over borders. Damn EU.

The lefty, hand wringing, tree embracing, back stabber loving

You mean people with brains and the ability to use them?

And WTF is a 'back stabber'?

dazh - Member

And WTF is a 'back stabber'?

[img] [/img]
[i]People with brains and the ability to use them[/i]

I think derekfish is referring to ed beating dave in the leadership election
derek was obviously a big fan of Tony and/or extraordinary rendition and is sulking that the blairite milliband didnt get to lead the labour party 😀

Sadly I did get taken in by Blair in the 'it can only get better' days such a great opportunity wasted by a vacuous idiot manipulated by a mad woman and some evil advisers..

I know he met Thatcher but was she really one of his advisers?

Like Cleggy, JY, you need to read all of that report in which they insist in order to remain they want to see EU reform.

As to the Motor Industry, you may not have been old enough to spot the distinct lack of British Made cars on French roads

or the obstacles placed in the way of British manufacturers wishing to market to Europe,

Clearly the fact that other EU countries make cars shows the EU did not destroy this manufacturing base so it was incorrect to claim this

Sadly I did get taken in by Blair in the 'it can only get better' days such a great opportunity wasted by a vacuous idiot manipulated by a mad woman and some evil advisers..

Ah right, I thought he was talking about gays for a second 😀

Derek, I too have little liking for Ed Miliband, but that's mainly because he has proven completely incapable and unwilling to grow a pair of balls and take on the established corporate oligarchy (half measures on energy companies and Rupert Murdoch aside). If your problem is that he is not tory enough like Blair, then I think you've been voting for the wrong party.

yS could show videos of Farage v Clegg

BT could show Sturgeon v Lamont

Anyone could show edinburgh v farage and I'd watch it

Jaguar were never crap, Rover had their moments but generally were OK, not to mention Aston, then Range Rover, plenty went to the states why not in equal quantity to Europe? British leyland well you have a point, but back then they were just one. You forget just how many brands we had, there's no point going over it all again, but the fact is National Commercial protectionism is still as rife today in France and Germany as it was back then.

As to the other thing you fail to realise as to why the multinational car company owners are so keen to stay here is because of our 'flexible' labour laws, no 6 month, 12 month or zero hour contracts in France or Germany.

I had never voted Tory in my life until the Clegg involvement with the Libdems and the Gordon Brown tenure with Labour, but by then it was already broken and i was stupid enough to think maybe a dose of Tories might fix the opposition, it didn't and now we have total disenfranchisement of my class, which is the self employed new working poor and sadly the only person who seems to be making the right noises is Farage.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_(UK) ]Here, this was who I supported, back in the day.[/url] a fine mess it is now.

National Commercial protectionism is still as rife today in France and Germany as it was back then.

I'm not buying this. As others have said, the answers as to why Germany and France still have successful automotive industries are probably because they made conscious decisions and policies to support them through R&D, tax incentives, training, labour protection laws, and constructive industrial relations. Of course it's much easier for us to accuse them of fixing the market, but then when have the hubristic British ever been good at admitting that they were either second best at something or that they completely ballsed it up when they had the chance of doing something similar?

And even if it were true, how are you going to stop them if you're not at the table when they're setting European trade policies? The alternative is something much darker and threatening than a german speaking bureaucrat waving a bit of paper.

the fact is National Commercial protectionism is still as rife today in France and Germany as it was back then.

HoratioHufnagel - Member

What would happen if we redefined countries as groups of people who share the same ideals, rather than groups of people who happened to be born in the same place?

Farage can have all the little englanders to create their own backwards paradise with no foreign people, no equal rights for women or gay people, no cycling allowed, no NHS, double the size of the army, no ugly windfarms (to be replaced by coal), virtually no welfare system, no belief in man-made climate change (even Daily Mail and Telegraph now agree on that ) and all of the wealth in the hands of the top 0.0001%.

i'd check all this by reading their policies, but they've deleted them off their website, replaced by a list of populist "issues".

How dare they insist kittens be murdered.
Wait, they [i]don't[/i] want kittens to be murdered!? Well they should want that 'cos they're bastards, right!? 🙄

I don't like career politicians with their PR machine spinning non-stop but rather prefer a straight talker.

Junkyard - lazarus
the fact is National Commercial protectionism is still as rife today in France and Germany as it was back then.

Repeating a fabrication does not make it true
Please present some evidence for this statement both for then and now

Go, try and set up an ebay account to sell your bike in Germany.

Try and start a trade exhibition for whatever sector you are in, in Germany.

You can use your UK ebay account to sell bikes across the whole of Europe (or the world for that matter) ebay expects you to open an account in your country of residence. Thats not EU rules or German protectionism preventing you.

Which German law prevents you from putting on an Exhibition there?

derekfish - Member

I started life politically on the far left.................. and I ended up SDP

Oh the classic stereotypical middle-class transient revolutionary ....... I love it !

😀

MSP - Member

Which German law prevents you from putting on an Exhibition there?

[url= http://www.archive.org/stream/germancommercial00germuoft/germancommercial00germuoft_djvu.txt ]Here have a butchers at this[/url] Go to the bit about Mercantile trader, then the Mercantile Register.

It's the usual catch 22 scenario you can't be a trader unless you're on the register, but you can't be on the register unless you are a trader, which requires hoops to be jumped through, meanwhile a German Company will set up whatever it is your trying to do, then another law cuts in which persuades the companies you are trying to attract to your 'show' that since the German National is now offering the same thing, then that show should be favoured.

+1 for derekfish, particularly his earlier posts, before the usual massed ranks of the hand-wringing, liberal left STW contingent turned up! 🙂

Ah, you mean regulations which expect certain trades to have certain qualifications, same as the UK has corgi regs and NICEIC registered electricians.

They have to prove that the local requirements are specific and that another equivalent qualification from another nation is not suitable. I can see that it this has been a problem in the past, and may still be entrenched into some peoples mindsets. Thankfully the good old EU is clamping down on this, and if you come across such restrictive practices you should report it.

It was even quite some time ago that Germany was forced to accept beers brewed in other countries that don't meet the old purity laws. The EU forced them to change, and if they can get them to back down on that. then all hail the EU.

I don't understand why people have to become far left or right completely. You don't have to stick to a particular ideology you know. Mixed and match them as non are actually perfect. Common sense must prevail otherwise we are just going to be slaved to crazy thinking. 🙄

MSP - Member
Ah, you mean regulations which expect certain trades to have certain qualifications, same as the UK has corgi regs and NICEIC registered electricians.

They have to prove that the local requirements are specific and that another equivalent qualification from another nation is not suitable. I can see that it this has been a problem in the past, and may still be entrenched into some peoples mindsets. Thankfully the good old EU is clamping down on this, and if you come across such restrictive practices you should report it.

It was even quite some time ago that Germany was forced to accept beers brewed in other countries that don't meet the old purity laws. The EU forced them to change, and if they can get them to back down on that. then all hail the EU.

This isn't fitting gas or electrical, neither is setting up a car distribution franchise, Exhibition organisation is largely unregulated, even in Germany, unless of course you are not German, it's not just exhibitions it's whole rafts of protectionism that theoretically the Single market was to have swept away, but didn't and now time has moved on, globalisation not to mention the internet other than pressure that gets applied by German companies, I could go on with other instances of their actions to support the Euro, keeping prices here artificially high, even when purchasing far eastern based manufactured finished goods.

Now and again you folk should accept that there are some of us that are not here just for the sake of a Junkyard style argument purely for the sake of it and just want to explain the realities, but like Clegg your politically motivated minds (God knows why, are you all card carrying trotskyites?)refuse to accept genuine albeit anecdotal proof, these things really happen, they have happened to me and my friends who have tried to trade with Europe against the grain (The grain being they ship to us).

Whatever, I am going to get such a warm feeling when good old Nigel is downing a pint or two after slam dunking Clegg in the May Elections, and I'll be like Arnie to gloat here I'm fairly sure..

Just for the record though, who are you in all conscience going to vote for then?

[img] [/img]

For Liberal Democrat insert STW. 😉

I don't believe in EU or EURO. 😆

I don't need Farage to tell me that but I like the way he speaks to the eurocrats in their face. Good entertainment that.

😈

For Liberal Democrat insert STW

Please don't encourage them, I'm already tired of their predictable response to any discussion. 🙂

This isn't fitting gas or electrical, neither is setting up a car distribution franchise, Exhibition organisation is largely unregulated, even in Germany, unless of course you are not German, it's not just exhibitions it's whole rafts of protectionism that theoretically the Single market was to have swept away, but didn't and now time has moved on, globalisation not to mention the internet other than pressure that gets applied by German companies, I could go on with other instances of their actions to support the Euro, keeping prices here artificially high, even when purchasing far eastern based manufactured finished goods.

Now and again you folk should accept that there are some of us that are not here just for the sake of a Junkyard style argument purely for the sake of it and just want to explain the realities, but like Clegg your politically motivated minds (God knows why, are you all card carrying trotskyites?)refuse to accept genuine albeit anecdotal proof, these things really happen, they have happened to me and my friends who have tried to trade with Europe against the grain (The grain being they ship to us).

Whatever, I am going to get such a warm feeling when good old Nigel is downing a pint or two after slam dunking Clegg in the May Elections, and I'll be like Arnie to gloat here I'm fairly sure..

Just for the record though, who are you in all conscience going to vote for then?

Ah so the law you posted was completely unrelated to your claims, well done on presenting a pointless argument while claiming that you are not here for an argument 🙄

You have still to back up any of your claims with any evidence, instead just resorting to name calling. Basically you are exactly what Farage wants as a core supporter. You will just blame anything and everything on "Johny foreigner" without any thought or perspective to reality.

Please don't encourage them, I'm already tired of their predictable response to any discussion.

I can see how evidence might bore the xenophobes, who would rather just spew nonsense.

No, the law was what 'they' cited in their objections, you don't really read much if it gets in the way of your dogma do you? It's actually not an argument from where I'm seated, I'm just presenting a view backed by real world experience of dealing with Europe, take or leave what you will from it. Reeling out leftist or pro EU bollox isn't actually going to change anything that has happened to me now is it?

haha "my dogma" I LOLed

No, the law was what 'they' cited in their objections, you don't really read much if it gets in the way of your dogma do you?

Well you haven't actually written what happened in your [s]imaginary world[/s] experience or who are they? The lizard people?

You just keep making these claims of protectionism no specific evidence to back it up, no matter how much you are asked for it. If your claims are based on reality, the way you are coming across it just sounds like you were unable to deal with trading in another country, and you want to blame them for you own failings.

You know what? The more you go on, the more I'm beginning to believe it was Gay Marriage that brought all that bad weather recently, not to mention this air pollution, and that is going to influence my vote come May. 😉

chewkw - Member

I don't need Farage to tell me that but I like the way he speaks to the eurocrats in their face. Good entertainment that.

Yeah but the thing is, while he's doing that, he's supposed to be representing the people that elected him. Instead of actually doing his job he uses his platform to grandstand and mock while achieving nothing at all. It can be amusing to watch but it's a slap in the face to his voters. Or it would be, except they see him doing it and think "Right on nige, you give em what for" because they mistake words for actions.

p8ddy - Member

One thing I don't understand about the right wing viewpoint is mentioned in the above. 'Tree embracing' used as a pejorative statement, as if taking care of the environment is a stupid thing.

It's like "do gooder". You scumbag, you did some good!

Northwind - Member

chewkw - Member

I don't need Farage to tell me that but I like the way he speaks to the eurocrats in their face. Good entertainment that.

Yeah but the thing is, while he's doing that, he's supposed to be representing the people that elected him. Instead of actually doing his job he uses his platform to grandstand and mock while achieving nothing at all. It can be amusing to watch but it's a slap in the face to his voters. Or it would be, except they see him doing it and think "Right on nige, you give em what for" because they mistake words for actions.

Unfortunately, everyone knows the fact is that there is nothing he can do really as a lone ranger hence his way of mocking the system is perfectly accepted and entertaining. I think he is just be a realist here.

He knows (we/I know) he is facing zombie maggot bureaucrats alone so why not make the best out of it since nothing he says is going to make an impact at all. Be himself and fire away. I would do the same but I may perhaps say "Your mama Mr/Ms Zombie Maggot Bureaucrat ...".

The only way he can make an impact is to rely on (or to make) the British public to wake up to the fact they are zombie walking into bureaucratic maggot system.

Perhaps he can force a vote/referendum to get out from the zombie maggot system. Any govt that fails to do so will be deselected etc ... Which I hope will gather momentum as time goes by and hopefully one day we are out to take charge of our own lives again.

What? I hear standardisation coming from the EU/EURO camp etc. What? You cannot cope with others' standard? If you want to survive in business then adopt rather than whinging all the time. If you don't want to invest in UK other will and I am definite that the world is not restricted to few countries only. Standardisation? ... what a lot of zombie maggot brain residual.

You/we are already half way through our evolution into zombie maggot species so why the hurry to make it an even worst by joining the EU zombie maggot system? Greater number in zombie maggot strength? (you do know zombie maggot is used as target practice for Benelli M4 ya?)

🙄

He's not a "lone ranger" though, there are other euroskeptics, he chooses not to work with them either. Basically he's embraced the whole process and become a part of the system he claims to hate, and helps to keep the whole system chugging along nicely.

The brain of an anti those foreign chaps UKIP supporter.

Graeme, Graeme, Graeme. Here winding up the singletrackers again? How many posts before you admit you were just on another troll-fest?

Northwind - Member

He's not a "lone ranger" though, there are other euroskeptics, he chooses not to work with them either. Basically he's embraced the whole process and become a part of the system he claims to hate.

Either way it is a win win for his personal profile and that is what most politicians tend to do. The EU zombie maggot system is a platform for him to improve his own profile while the system itself is slowly evolving to infect the globe with stronger zombie maggot disease. (Big EU zombie maggot is not beautiful but can only be beautiful if I am the zombie maggot overlord. 😈 ) The self interest is there for everyone to see and if we sleep walk into this disease then we are ready to be harvested by Bennelli M4.

😈

MSP - Member

The brain of an anti those foreign chaps UKIP supporter.

I am an alien zombie maggot no doubt about that and I do admit some of their supporters do have zombie maggot brains with bad infestation. But [b] make no mistake [/b]( 😆 a phrase commonly used by a presidential dude) if they think all foreign zombie maggots are easy walk over they need to think twice [b]for sure.[/b] (a favourite of certain F1 drivers).

I love that diagram of the "socialist brain" derekfish !

I know it's American but the tiny "sense of humor cell" is so true also of British lefties. The smallest part of the brain, that's hilarious !!! 😀

I can't think of one single left-wing/liberal comedian - can you ? And yet Britain is spoilt for choice when it comes to hugely successful right-wing comic geniuses such as Jim Davidson.

Yep ....... I've never met a leftie with a sense of humour.

Roy Chubby Brown - he's good too. Would probably go down well at a UKIP convention.

these things really happen, they have happened to me and my friends

What things? Can we have some specific examples with a little detail? It's all very vague.

Yep ....... I've never met a leftie with a sense of humour.

Mark Steel?, Mark Thomas?, Billy Connolly?, Bill Maher?, Stewart Lee?, Frankie Boyle?, Bill Bailey?, Stephen Colbert?, Janeane Garolafo?, Dennis Leary?, Bill Hicks…….. i could go on for some time.

Unless you were being humorously ironic in an"[i]Oh, that's just so ernie_lynch[/i]" sort of way to promote a rebuttal which i seem to have furnished you with…Damn it!, i've replied to an ernie post and now i feel sullied and dirty…...

No, the law was what 'they' cited in their objections, you don't really read much if it gets in the way of your dogma do you? It's actually not an argument from where I'm seated, I'm just presenting a view backed by real world experience of dealing with Europe, take or leave what you will from it. Reeling out leftist or pro EU bollox isn't actually going to change anything that has happened to me now is it?

Derekfish is a prime example of what Eric Hoffer talks about in "The True Believer". He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses - he places his locus of control outisde of his own power. He is unhappy with his life and feels that it has been somehow spoiled, as the weak do not like to take responsibility for their own failiure they then seek to blame it on external factors. Leaders like Nigel Farage offer these kinds of people hope and freedom from their own personal responsibility.

It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from the sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. St. Vincent De Paul cautioned his disciples to deport themselves so that the poor "will forgive them the bread you give them."

Tom_W1987 - Member

Derekfish is a prime example of what Eric Hoffer talks about in "The True Believer". He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses - he places his locus of control outisde of his own power. He is unhappy with his life and feels that it has been somehow spoiled, as the weak do not like to take responsibility for their own failiure they then seek to blame it on external factors. Leaders like Nigel Farage offer these kinds of people hope and freedom from their own personal responsibility.

That's very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

Tom_W1987 - Member

We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. St. Vincent De Paul cautioned his disciples to deport themselves so that the poor "will forgive them the bread you give them."

Well you could try sharing your favourite tree with me, maybe I'll get some comfort by hugging it alongside you, what is it by the way? Bet it's a Beech, they have very smooth bark, almost like a babies bottom eh?

What's all this about trees? We only need them to breath....

[b]PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY NOD[/b]E

Is that the thing you need in order to realise that all your ills aren't down "outsiders"?

and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

LMFAO and you don't think Farage would do this same?

Well you could try sharing your favourite tree with me, maybe I'll get some comfort by hugging it alongside you, what is it by the way? Bet it's a Beech, they have very smooth bark, almost like a babies bottom eh?

If you're accusing me of being a tree hugging left wing hippy, I'm not. I'm actually a full on raging libertarian - albeit with a mild left wing bent whilst Eric Hoffer is a darling of the Republican party.

He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses - he places his locus of control outisde of his own power......

Sorry but that's a complete load of bollox. In fact it's probably the most pompous and patronising thing I've ever read on here. Derekfish may believe he's been wronged by the EU, but I can't see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

these kinds of people

*Doffs cap*

Sorry but that's a complete load of bollox. In fact it's probably the most pompous and patronising thing I've ever read on here. Derekfish may believe he's been wronged by the EU, but I can't see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

It gives me great pleasure knowing that I've wound you up.

Whether you like it or not, it's true that those that vote for UKIP are psychologically speaking... the types of people who are likely to be attracted to mass movements as a whole.

but I can't see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

and I refer you to

happened to me

and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

This is so hilariously ****ing funny given the context.

You are an anticapitalist. Can you name another famous right wing anticapitalist party? You can have 10 brownie points if you do. 😆

I'm going to keep highlighting how valid Hoffers work is in this context I think.

They who clamor loudest for freedom are often the ones least likely to be happy in a free society. The frustrated, oppressed by their shortcomings, blame their failure on existing restraints. Actually, their innermost desire is for an end to the "free for all." They want to eliminate free competition and the ruthless testing to which the individual is continually subjected in a free society. - The True Believer

You are an anticapitalist. Can you name another famous right wing anticapitalist party? You can have 10 brownie points if you do.

While not completely a candidate for the invocation of Godwin's Law, in my eyes you've already lost the argument.

somafunk - Member
Yep ....... I've never met a leftie with a sense of humour.
Mark Steel?, Mark Thomas?, Billy Connolly?, Bill Maher?, Stewart Lee?, Frankie Boyle?, Bill Bailey?, Stephen Colbert?, Janeane Garolafo?, Dennis Leary?, Bill Hicks…….. i could go on for some time.

While not completely a candidate for the invocation of Godwin's Law, in my eyes you've already lost the argument.

It's nowhere near Godwins law, I'm simply trying to draw comparisons between the types of people who adhere to any mass movement.

Hilariously enough, you can't make a rebutall - all you can do is claim that I'm wrong, which means of course that you are also claiming without any kind of argument that one of the greatest self educated working class right wing thinkers of the 20th century is also wrong.

You aren't doing that are you? 😆

Tom_W1987 - Member
I'm simply trying to draw comparisons between the types of people who adhere to any mass movement.

They're called markets these days and most of life is spent trying to manipulate them one way or another and to bring us back neatly on topic, what we signed up for was a common market, in which uniform tariffs freedom of movement of goods across borders etc etc was applied equally and fairly to all member states.

Which is what UKIP are seeking a return to if you read their postulations and/or listen to what that nice man Nigel is saying, contrary to that is the political generation seeking to extend and strengthen their gravy train. I can't say I've been wronged by the EU as such, quite the contrary, buying stuff from there and selling it hear has given me a living over the years, but having it made here and selling it there which should be just as simple, isn't, because of the difference between the various nation states and their application of the various rules and regs.

Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway, might even be better if the markets were left to sort themselves out quid pro quo, in an I'm not buying yours unless you sell mine sort of style which shouldn't be necessary under the current system but actually is for us in the UK. Why do you think for example that it's cheaper to have bulk mail sent from Holland rather than using our own mail service? I ask this question not actually knowing the answer, but in a common community, it shouldn't be the case, but five 'll get you ten the word subsidy is in there somewhere stacked against us and our postal workers.

The fact is that what we have never really fully got implemented, the only bit that did was the bureaucracy, they all get equal pay, their expenses get sorted and very nicely they all do, even Nigel, he'd better hope this gambit for UK power works or he'll be out of a job won't he?

As to what I think you are, is young, trotskyite, and probably mid dissertation on American literature.

As to what I think you are, is young, trotskyite, and probably mid dissertation on American literature.

Nope, I'm so right wing it would make your brain collapse in on itself. I'm quite happy with there being millions of immigrants here, the more competition the better. To weed out the white lazy working class chaff 😈

You are a Zebra.

That's very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

This, LOL!

grum - Member
That's very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.
Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

Could they be a force for something other than a protest spanking, no, not without some influx of more heavyweight common sensical types and more Women, but they do provide a talking point, not only here, there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn, last time there was a local election round here they did split the Tory vote and a Green got in, it's a damn shame there is no one switched on in the Green party to make capitol of all this, but then they're like lots of typical lefties, too busy being heavy weight thinkers and not doing enough for fear they'll be thought of as uneducated masses eh?

What a load of waffle.

Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

dazh - Member
Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway
This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

Thankfully I don't hang out in those kind of pubs.

As Nigel said, it's called business and the commercial sector tend to work these things out pretty quickly, especially given 'they' will wish to continue selling more to us than we do to them. As to the rest we have the WTO these days and many more emerging markets some of whom are commonwealth or ex colonial dominions who still like us, then of course there is the dear old internet that knows no boundaries (in theory at least). You forget, there was a time when a good chunk of that Globe was coloured pink...

Commerical enterprises aren't often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what government is for.

Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread.

The United States wants us in the EU, Australia wants us in the EU, Brazil wants us in the EU, India wants us in the EU....ad nauseum.

there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

I bet they're the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on "them immigrants" and "educated toffs in London". **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won't happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

[img] [/img]

Tom_W1987 - Member

Commerical enterprises aren't often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what Goldman Sachs is for.

ftfy

Tom_W1987 - Member

Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers don't care about us, what they care about is access to the Banking & Money System. You have made factual claims based on all you years of experience throughout the entire course of this thread and I thank you for enlightening my naive young mind.

aftfy

Tom_W1987 - Member
The United States don't give a damn, nor do Australia , Brazil , or India providing our banks continue to finance and trade with them.

ditto

Tom_W1987 - Member
I bet they're the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on "them immigrants" and "educated toffs in London". **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won't happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

True, you're pretty much screwed I fear, never mind you can always emigrate.

And they like our financial sector why? Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn't, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU.

Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/15/uk-ford-britain-idUKBREA0E0KK20140115 😆

None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU

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But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?
Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

Anyway most of the city guys and clients I know have had € euro mortgages as
they was a much cheaper rate years back when the € euro first came onto the market.
Has the mortgage rate was cheaper to buy in € euros as in Sterling.
So probably there scared as they have so much invested in. Self interest comes to mind !

s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

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Every little helps I suppose

"Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread"

Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

[quote=grantway ]s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?
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Every little helps I suppose

i think it is because they have not thought it through and seem to think that fat cat nigel is on their side.
Granted he wants british workers to do the low paid menial jobs foreigners do but that is far as his altruism goes.

Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?

That's besides the point, the poster I was responding to thought that the world would carry on dealing with our banks. They would not.

Isn't Farage an ex banker, I wonder if he's reformed?

Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

You what?

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

And the Tories, and Labour, and the LibDems. That's one of the big advantages that the Chinese have over Western companies. Many of the Chinese companies involved in Africa are huge state owned companies that together form a clear strategy which offers African governments entire packages. They work together and in cooperation with each other as they share a common goal.

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

I never meant to suggest that ukip could, I was responding to Toms statement that our ex colonial chums no longer want our involvment, when in fact Nigeria, a growing economy would like us to be more involved.

Tom_W1987 - Member
And they like our financial sector why?
Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn't, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU.

Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

I'll answer the bit about my shitty little company and it's demise due to European centralisation first and the choice to headquarter in France rather than here, that cost the jobs of the 22 odd brits we had at the peak and ****ed our business into a cocked hat. Had there not been an Eu we'd still be going strong, like the Swiss guys, but that's another tale, what's done is done, am I bitter? Of course, difficult not to be watching a lifetimes work being wasted, but we move on.

As to the City generally, it is very naive to think the City Boys give a toss for political issues, it's not the way the world works. If they thought they could go on making more bucks from Eu expansionism I'm sure you'd be right, but it's done, the Eu thing is a busted flush and in this risk averse world it is all about risk management with a healthy bit of currency manipulation faced with a world of competitive devaluation, the Euro and Germany's historic fear of devaluation has given them breathing space as a safe haven currency, but, it's only temporary, so Germany keeps it's single currency market base, whilst thousands go unemployed.
There are only two sources of power, political and financial, but the one needs the other and guess which one inevitably calls the tune, don't think for a moment that Brussells is strong enough to take on the Worlds Financial institutions and sadly it is the likes of Goldman Sachs that do call the tune eventually, whilst making a shedload of cash doing it, ask Greece.

We little people are powerless, all our politicians, Labour, Tory they are all in thrall to the city, that alone would be reason to vote UKIP if only to send the bloody city boys a swerve. I'm not here to represent UKIP to you guys, I'm just explaining why a previously sensible sort of bloke is now even considering what was a lunatic fringe party and I do think as a Nation we would be better off in terms of jobs and global business outside of the EU, it's just an opinion don't hang me for it.

What we should be wondering is who is pulling their strings, how are they financed? We (think) we know the score with Labour and the Tories, so what would happen if they ever started making inroads into Westminster, would they become just another Tory/New Labour bankers poodle, or would they be reactionary enough to stand their ground? Who knows, only one way to find out in my view, would it be any worse than what we have now?

Tom_W1987 - Member

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

Chum, you do know how things work, with the civil service and everything? Have you never watched yes minister? There's nothing magical about Politicians, they are all 'guided' by the various mandarins that run things, UKIP would be no different than Labour or Tory once in power, from that sort of perspective, thicker people than you or I have found themselves heading Government departments, need I cite two jags?

There are snippets I actually quite liked in your second to last post derek. I don't agree with all of it but you've made more of an effort....

Why the hell are you voting UKIP? Ukip is for people who switched their brains off a long time ago. Ill get back to you when I'm sober.

Auntie Stella always delivers a more measured answer 😉

Thing is, derekfish - you haven't explained exactly why you think things would be better without the EU.

The banks will still be banks, and they're not your friends.

You want to trade with the rest of Europe you'll still need to play by their rules - which means accepting their regulations just like we do right now. (And that is of course the vast majority of the "Brussels diktat" lawmaking that UKIP complains about).

So what's left? Human rights legislation - not EU, so no difference there; CAP - fair enough, some money saved here, but will probably mean food prices go up and a lot of farmers ruined; sundry other legislation like data protection and NSA/GCHQ avoidance. (And to be honest when it comes to protecting my privacy I trust the EU far, far more than the UK).

And the loss? - tax free access to the EU market, a fairly level playing field (certainly more level than the alternative), political engagement with our commercial rivals... And what really hurts: there's a huge demand in Europe for the UK, people want a serious counterweight to Germany. The UK could be that, the goodwill's there, but our government seems too scared of blinkered little Englanders to actually make our weight count.

I'm not really capable of a truly rational argument at this time of night on a Friday, after a ride to visit Aunt Stella, suffice to say, we borrow an awful amount of money just to support our own Governmental mechanism, we also are taxed now at 20% Vat which is more than most businesses make, you may not remember but the rate we opened at was 8%, VAT is the tax that our contribution to the behemoth that the Eu has become.

That's one fifth of pretty much everything we spend, this on top of the third of everything we earn. I guess if I admitted it deep down I'm a bit of an anarchist, I really don't trust Government of any shape size or description, but when it has grown to the level it has simply to be part of some huge imperial structure, I feel enough is enough.

You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it's no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement, I don't care much about all the other crap, Human rights? It's a gravy train for Cherry Blair and her kind, GCHQ/NSA, yeah right like you can avoid that, wear the tinfoil hat and hope, farmers ruined? heard that before, didn't the floods just do that, better start ploughing that set aside and work for a living. We'll win some we'll lose some, maybe keep more of our fish, I don't care, what I do resent are Cleggs and there are far too many of them being paid by my efforts to do precious little but make my life difficult.

You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it's no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement,

This is the thing I doubt. Do you really think Germany and the rest of the EU will just allow the UK to negotiate - from the outside - a better deal than we get right now??? Apparently they're smart enough to beat their own rules and drive British manufacturing to the wall, yet with the UKIP at the helm we'll be able to drive through a deal that is better than the one we currently get?

I live in Spain. I'm not unbiased, I'm happy to admit that. But even the most impartial of observers would note that the Spanish love the British. We're natural allies. What makes you think other countries wouldn't want us as allies and friends, too? We could be so much more in the EU if we just had the cojones to do so.