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Anyone else uncomfortable with discussion about bailing out debt-ridden Greece (360 billion) whilst people die through hunger in the horn of Africa?
No more uncomfortable with that than most of the other shit we do while half the world starves.
Along the lines of what stratobiker says, I'm generally uncomfortable about how we've behaved (all of Europe) while a continent we shat on for centuries goes from one disaster to another.
Africa as a continent is rich in natural resources but all the countries seem poor .It seems to be badly governed as a whole .Lots of tribal fighting in countries that are far to big and many despotic rulers.Although colonialism is not to be condoned was it better before the Europeans left in terms of the lot of the native inhabitants ?
The BBC news website has a spot in the top right hand corner where it promotes some of its video/audio stories and a couple of weeks ago it had Wills and Kate in Canada next to the famine in Ethiopia.
Talk about two completely polarised stories.
However, famine and feast is so rife in this world that you sort of become a bit numb to it IMO.
Africa as a continent is rich in natural resources but all the countries seem poor .It seems to be badly governed as a whole .Lots of tribal fighting in countries that are far to big and many despotic rulers.Although colonialism is not to be condoned was it better before the Europeans left in terms of the lot of the native inhabitants ?
Controversial...
Controversial...
…is one word, yes.
Just the way things are,
u can't change it, and if u could would u swap places?
I tend to think not
the world can be a cruel place
Although colonialism is not to be condoned was it better before the Europeans [s]left [/s] turned up in terms of the lot of the native inhabitants ?
Anyone else uncomfortable with discussion about bailing out debt-ridden Greece (360 billion) whilst people die through hunger in the horn of Africa?
It's not bailing out debt-ridden Greece that makes me uncomfortable, it's the fact that it always seems to appear on the TV when I'm about to stuff my face.
Seriously, the sight of children crying with hunger and close to death because they don't have food, does my ****ing ing head in. And it makes me ****ing ing angry.
The UN says it needs about £185m in the next two months to deal with the famine. We spent £240m in 4 months bombing the crap out of Libya - to "save civilians". It's strange how we "care" so much more about civilian adults opposed to Gaddafi, than we do about starving civilian children.
There, there Ernie.
It's only a loan to Greece, they will pay it back with interest 😉
The UN will not pay their request for money back and as a result they will not be given it.
Good point Ernie, I agree with you, we should be sending the missiles and bombs into Ethiopia, instead of Libya. About time someone had the cojones to stand up and say it
It's strange how we "care" so much more about civilian adults opposed to Gaddafi, than we do about starving civilian children.
A good point well put Ernie. £185m to deal with the famine? How many city bonuses is that then?
Indeed. Because callous ****s like you don't give a ****.the world can be a cruel place
I posted to encourage debate it is heartbreaking to see starving people .The west need to write off the third world debt and somehow help more than we do .but how do you stop despots spending aid money on scotch ,guns and mercedes limos?
but how do you stop despots spending aid money on scotch ,guns and mercedes limos
Good point, but remove the word "aid" and how far removed is that from Westminster?
Edric 64 - Member
I posted to encourage debate it is heartbreaking to see starving people .The west need to write off the third world debt and somehow help more than we do .but how do you stop despots spending aid money on scotch ,guns and mercedes limos?
Send in some of our "respected" MPs and Metropolitan police officers to look after the cash and make sure that expenses are claimed for honestly and laws are not broken.
Unfortunately the world is corrupt and those with the weakest voice suffer the most.
One word: OIL. The west doesn't give a toss about countries that don't have it...The Congo, Rwanda, Haiti etc etc etc.
Nigeria?
The West did intervene in Somalia before though- have they got oil?
CharlieMungus - MemberGood point Ernie, I agree with you, we should be sending the missiles and bombs into Ethiopia, instead of Libya. About time someone had the cojones to stand up and say it
So you respond to my comment concerning the sight of children crying with hunger and close to death because they don't have food with a smartarse "funny" comment ? ..... tw4t
And since you're obviously not following the news, it's Somalia - not Ethiopia......tw4t.
Actually, the current emergency covers parts of Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya.
The local rebels/insurgents/tribal warlords aren't making things any easier by threatening aid agencies and demanding "taxes" for access.
Actually, the current emergency covers parts of Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya.
you forgot to say tw4t.
and ernie why don't you tell me what you are doing to make some contribution in that domain and then I'll tell you what i do and then we'll see who the tw4t is shall we?
it's the fact that it always seems to appear on the TV when I'm about to stuff my face
So, it's being confronted with difficult images when you are eating which makes it uncomfortable is it? the implication is that at other times its OK?
guess what that makes you?
I'll tell you what i do and then we'll see who the tw4t is shall we?
I'm not interested in what you do. And what I do is none of your business.
The tw4t comment was with reference to your smartarse "funny" comment, in reply to my comment concerning the sight of children crying with hunger and close to death because they don't have food - as well you know.
my comment was in response to your statement which was that it was upsetting because it appeared when you were eating. But anyway, I don't think this is the appropriate place for personal slanging matches. So, I'll leave it there.
we're having a bake sale tomorrow at work to raise money for the East Africa campaign
something strange about eating cake to raise money for the starving
The force of nature and the stupidity of mankind ... the ones shooting each other with AK47.
By keeping the 3rd world counties poor, we maintain our strong position in the world as a developed country.
The Gov. *could* bail out the 3rd world countries - wipe off debt, etc... but why would they?
In general, if we don't keep our economies running then there'll be no money left at all to give to Africa (as we currently do).
However I do agree that certain specific decisions are more than a bit shite.
But then again, the 'cost' of military operations is not cut and dried because keeping a standing army and civilian support capability costs money even if you don't send them on operations. I'd like to know how they calculate these costs.
By keeping the 3rd world counties poor, we maintain our strong position in the world as a developed country
Silly conspiracy theory. If 3rd world countries were rich they'd be enormous markets for the high tech stuff we make.
£185 million. This helps put it into some sort of context:
Sub Saharan Africa is in the position its in purely and only because of western foreign policy.
lets get that straight right now shall we? No point in trying to bullshit ouresleves about it. The children you see starving to death on the TV each night are dying for your mobile phone, the petrol in your car and other luxury consumer goods scattered around your centrally heated house.
Sub Saharan Africa is kept in a state of thrall whilst its natural resources are plundered by multinationals and its crumbling and corrupt political system propped up by bribes sanctioned and approved by our various foreign offices.
If the west REALLY wanted to change things, it could.
It doesn't want to, it doesn't benefit our economies and the pockets of our richest multinationals are already well enough lined for a few million starving people not to register a single blink.
So watch them die, wring your hands and watch nothing change. 🙁
T'is true, Middle Africa is rich in raw materials that we all use, basalt/iron ore yadda yadda, we choose not to fund large production industries out there because we have already the supply network in place from China/Russia.
lets get that straight right now shall we? No point in trying to bullshit ouresleves about it.
I'd like some evidence though.
And btw, this is a democracy, unfortunately. So if you start spending money elsewhere when people are dissatisfied at home, the electorate will complain like hell.
I'd like some evidence though.
evidence of what? Western exploitation of africa?
Put 'western exploitation of africa' into google....
A democracy you say? Did you vote to allow children to starve to death so you could have a great time? I don't recall that being on the ballot paper, but I was in a hurry.
Sadly, some things will never change.
No amount of money we throw at it will make any difference, hundreds of millions has been ploughed into the place over the years, and all we have done is increase life expectancy slightly, fund private armies, build a few houses & pay for a few planes for those corrupt in control.
Until the crux of the problem is addressed (one of the biggest being population growth being frighteningly out of control) then it will be business as usual.
Good money after bad. Much like Greece (and the other PIIGS).
I think money is necessary but not sufficient to sort Africa out. Without some sort of functioning infratsructure that a lot of the countries don't seem to have it'd just be into a big hole or a few dictator's pockets.
And just saying the West made the mess is all very well but I think the African nations to a certain extent keep themselves down.
The Gov. *could* bail out the 3rd world countries - wipe off debt, etc... but why would they?
Erm, didn't we do this?
Regards exploitation... I think you're better looking East at the blossoming effects of the new colonialism, than at the damage the West did in the past.
A nice example of the problems inherent in Rhodesia - where the breadbasket of africa was taken off the white farmers, and left to ruin - unfortunately certain African leaders are closer to Pol Pot in their world outlook than they are to Kibaki.
The children you see starving to death on the TV each night are dying for your mobile phone, the petrol in your car and other luxury consumer goods scattered around your centrally heated house.
Should that be "your" or "our", do you not have heating, a car, mobile phone and some consumer goods.
So watch them die, wring your hands and watch nothing change.
It's us again not you 🙄
You can't make any judgement about governance of African countries without looking at 400 years of malign western intervention. We've moved on from the slave trade to plundering their natural resources.
Whilst we're on the subject - the first I knew of this crisis was a short article on the news a couple of weeks ago. Yet it must have been brewing for months, if not years. So why are our media so indifferent?
Sub Saharan Africa is in the position its in purely and only because of western foreign policy.
I don't doubt that western (and eastern) foreign policy has an impact on the situation in Africa, but frankly the governments within africa aren't blameless either. It is not for us outside Africa to parachute in to "solve" their problems (emergnecy aid excepted) it is for african's themselves to solve them how they see fit. We shouldn't be putting barriers in the way but nor should be imposing ourselves on them.
I work in Africa a lot and have to say IMHO the biggest problem they have is corruption esp in their leadership - the countries are just run to make the leaders rich in the short term. Until they resolve that issue, there won't be the structural changes made to enhance the countries prospects.
They don't have the rule of law and debt isn't honoured which makes investment very risky - which holds them back. You can negotiate a deal and buy a license (eg for a mobile phone network) and then find that they revoke it after cashing your very large cheque because a rival had 'better' connections to the government and stole your license right in front of your face. No comeback, no redress, you just have to hire someone even better connected to steal it back.
Barking mad place...
No amount of money we throw at it will make any difference
Why do people come out with stuff like that ? Is it because it makes us feel a little bit better about the horrific reality that children are dying because they don't have any food ?
The claim that "no amount of money we throw at it will make any difference" is clearly bollox - an amount of money [i]will[/i] make a difference. The UN reckons the amount of $300m over the next 2 months should do it.
There's no point 'pretending' there's nothing that can be done about it, and that people dying for want of a meal is somehow normal or natural.
And I don't care whether the cause is bad government, corruption, war, exploitation by the west, drought, floods, population growth, climate change, my mobile phone, or anything else. Right now people are dying and many more are facing death because they don't have food.
The solution, whatever the cause, is supplying them with food to stop them from dying. Every Human Being on this Earth has a right to food, and if some lack it, then they are right to expect others to provide it. I don't see this as "charity" I see it as fulfilling obligations and responsibilities - they're not members of another species ffs.
.
But then again, the 'cost' of military operations is not cut and dried because keeping a standing army and civilian support capability costs money even if you don't send them on operations.
I see the point you're making, but no, we wouldn't be spending all that money if we weren't bombing Libya. Every time we fire a single Brimstone missile at Libya it costs three-quarters of a million pounds. In the first three months of hostilities Britain fired 150 Brimstone missiles at Libya. And every 4 hour mission over Libya in just one Tornado or Typhoon aircraft costs about £100,00 in fuel alone.
Money is always no object at all when it comes to war/killing people. Money suddenly becomes an insurmountable issue when it comes to saving lives.
Well said ernie
It's strange to read about the famine in east Africa- I live in Southern Ethiopia, and its not being reported on the news here at all.
I probably only live about 400k from the area affected.
In fact, I've asked Ethiopian colleagues at the college about it, and they have no knowledge of it all.
I don't doubt it is real, but its strange that in one of the countries affected, its not known about.
The thing I don't understand (and I've lived here for 18 months) is Ethiopia is incredibly fertile, and there is no signs of any food shortages anywhere I've been in the country- quite the opposite in fact. Why isn't Ethiopia mobilising these food resources to help its own people?
As footflaps says- barking mad place.
[The UN reckons the amount of $300m over the next 2 months should do it.]
do what? the starving woman on the news with 5 starving kids will be an old starving woman with 5 starving kids and 25 starving grandkids in a few years time. the 'right' thing to do is to keep them alive on handouts?
I don't think anyone is disagreeing about doing something now ernie. Maybe popstars could all get together and record a song or something and then starvation in Africa would be gone for ever.
The sad truth is that Africans will continue to starve until or unless the west releases it's grip from around africa's throat.
[img] 
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Not sure if this will come out, but this to me is a terrifying inditement of mankind and its priorities.
the 'right' thing to do is to keep them alive on handouts?
Yep, you've got it - well done
[img] 
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mrmo - MemberNot sure if this will come out, but this to me is a terrifying inditement of mankind and its priorities.
That's incredible
Put it in perspective for me with pictures of starving children and then cutting to live footage of the shuttle launch / docking / landing.
I'm a huge supporter of exploration and NASA/ISS work, but it does make you wonder.
AndrewBF - MemberI'm a huge supporter of exploration and NASA/ISS work, but it does make you wonder.
Why? We can afford both, we're just choosing not to. In fact now we're choosing not to afford either.
the Iraq war get 4 mentions there?
1) Iraq war predicted cost 2003 - $60billion
2) Iraq war 06 - $102billion
3) Iraq war 07 - $133billion
4) Iraq war estimated total - $3,000billion
The thing I don't understand (and I've lived here for 18 months) is Ethiopia is incredibly fertile, and there is no signs of any food shortages anywhere I've been in the country- quite the opposite in fact. Why isn't Ethiopia mobilising these food resources to help its own people?
From what I recall that was to do with internal politics and it was the same in the '80s when ther was apparently enough food to go round but not the infrastructure or the political will to do so.
the 'right' thing to do is to keep them alive on handouts?
Yep, you've got it - well done
That's not much of a long term solution though is it.
That's not much of a long term solution though is it.
The appeal by the UN has nothing to do with a long term solution - why did you think I might be suggesting that it was a long term solution ?
From what I recall that was to do with internal politics and it was the same in the '80s when ther was apparently enough food to go round but not the infrastructure or the political will to do so.
The cause is drought right now, and poverty more generally. When 85% of the population work on the land, then the only thing the world's 12th poorest country has to sell to get the things it needs other than food, such as medicine, oil, electricity, etc, is its food. I assume the 15% who aren't working on the land aren't producing anything - they are lorry drivers, police, administrators, dockers, etc.
And poverty means that it is cheaper to use a small child to weed a field than to use pesticides, therefore no education - more poverty. In desperation they have handed farmland to foreign investors in the hope they will modernise farming. This has simply led to more fertile land being used to grow palm oil and sugar to export to wealthy countries, or the growing of biofuels - and less food for poor people.
Whatever the causes, the solution to millions of children without food and facing death is the same - it's to provide them with food. Explaining to them the reasons [i]why[/i] they are going to die of hunger will not help them.
The Sahara is expanding south in response to climatic change. Any solution that does not include moving the population to an area they can farm again is not a solution.
edikator - or working to change the desertification of the land?
Planting trees makes a huge difference. there is a school of thought that deforestation is responsible for the expansion of the sahara not climate change.
Whatever the long term solutions and like many things there is no one simplistic solution Ernie is right
the solution to millions of children without food and facing death is the same - it's to provide them with food.
Solutions are many and varies from planting trees around wells to stopping western corporations corrupting goverenments
why did you think I might be suggesting that it was a long term solution ?
It was early and I was tired.
My personal view is that tree planting and efforts to revegetate would be best carried out in areas where long-term viablility is highest. IMO that doesn't include the newly expanded margins of the Sahara desert in Somalia. Once desert conditions prevail it is very hard to reverse the trend. It would be better to draw a line in the sand somewhere and say we'll try to stop it here. Perhaps where the internation community can access safely.
Many people displaced by this famine simply need new lands. Like me you've probably seen the satelite images on TV, the geologist in me says the desert is likely to win.
Solutions are many and varies from planting trees around wells to stopping western corporations corrupting goverenments
No, none of those suggestions will help children who face death by starvation and on who's behalf the UN has launched this latest appeal.
The only solution, whatever the causes of this famine are, is to provide immediate food and medicine to those affected. Planting trees will not help them.
They need unconditional non-judgemental assistance right now. They don't need a lecture on what went wrong.
They need unconditional non-judgemental assistance right now. They don't need a lecture on what went wrong.
I actually agree, they do need assistance. But to play devils advocate, what happens the next time, and the next, and the next, etc etc. The same story for the last 50 years.
The country is a complete basket case.
But to play devils advocate, what happens the next time, and the next, and the next, etc etc.
Well it's not rocket science, any future famines should be dealt with in exactly the same way - by providing famine relief. Whenever a country or a people are facing starvation because of lack of food then the obligation of wealthy countries is to provide them with assistance.
There is zero choice in the matter as far as I'm concerned - allowing children to die of a hunger is not an option. And the sooner wealthy nations recognise their automatic non-negotiable responsibilities, then the sooner long term permanent solutions will be found.
But as long as the attitude prevails that "this is an unfortunate situation for which ultimately we have no responsibilities", then famine will continue to be a grotesque stain on humanity. We are talking about human beings here - we have an absolute and inherent responsibility towards them. In the same way that we have a responsibility to provide assistance to someone lying bleeding in the road - walking by because it's not our problem is not an option.
The same story for the last 50 years
Is it ? The United Nations has declared a famine in two areas of southern Somalia primarily because of the worst drought in 60 years. And yes, due to civil war in the 90s and its effect on agriculture and food distribution it did cause famine. Plus of course the lack of functioning government since 1991 has resulted in wealthy nations plundering Somalia's rich fishing stocks :
[url= http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1892376,00.html ]How Somalia's Fishermen Became Pirates[/url]
[i]"Ever since a civil war brought down Somalia's last functional government in 1991, the country's 3,330 km (2,000 miles) of coastline — the longest in continental Africa — has been pillaged by foreign vessels. A United Nations report in 2006 said that, in the absence of the country's at one time serviceable coastguard, [b]Somali waters have become the site of an international "free for all," with fishing fleets from around the world illegally plundering Somali stocks and freezing out the country's own rudimentarily-equipped fishermen[/b]. According to another U.N. report, an estimated $300 million worth of seafood is stolen from the country's coastline each year.
High-seas trawlers from countries [b]as far flung as South Korea, Japan and Spain have operated down the Somali coast[/b], often illegally and without licenses, for the better part of two decades, the U.N. says.
A 2005 United Nations Environmental Program report cited uranium radioactive and other hazardous deposits leading to a rash of respiratory ailments and skin diseases breaking out in villages along the Somali coast. According to the U.N., at the time of the report, [b]it cost $2.50 per ton for a European company to dump these types of materials off the Horn of Africa, as opposed to $250 per ton to dispose of them cleanly in Europe[/b]".[/i]
But I'm not sure this has been going on for the last 50 years.
tjErnie is right
Ie food now, debate and argue the rest later. Food now
Okay, enough ... yawn.
If the mother nature want to cull the people no one and not even god(s) can change that.
Also don't beat yourself up just because someone is starving to death.
There are people dying everyday so those who are fortunate are safe other perish and that is the nature of things.
Even if you want to help their Islamists govt denies famine so who are you to say they are starving.
[b]I say nuke the place and return it to mother nature. [/b]
Those with genuine kindness will survive the rest will perish ...
👿
Hopefully you'll be next eh?
yossarian - MemberHopefully you'll be next eh?
We will all die one day.
The way we die might be different but the end result is the same. i.e. turn into carbon.
If you live life the way it should be then dying is a natural process which should not be feared.
But you will fight to stay alive as long as you can if you are the kind that have not lived life as it should be.
Life as it should be depends on your world view and your belief.
Cling on to it you feel pain, let it go you will be free.
🙄
I bet you've got a hot rock burn in your pyjama trousers. 😀