[Closed] 'Faith' schools.

Seems grossly unfair and simply anachronistic in today's society that so many schools are allowed to select pupils on the basis of supernatural beliefs.

I agree that it remains a very strange feature of British schools' life. That said, I know that, unless they are grossly over-subscribed, both the local Catholic and CofE schools should still receive an application for your daughter and take it seriously.

I'm sure that they won't see you without a school to go to.

as we have absolutely no religious commitment, we are effectively excluded from these

Not sure that's true.. ? You can go, and skip religious stuff can't you?

Apparently not. Each school has around 8 categories of pupils of which 'other', or non religious pupils, will be considered in the final category. But as all schools fill their pupil allocation among the earlier categories, and thus are over subscribed, applicants in the 'other' category are not allocated places as they are all already filled. Places 1-3 are listed generally as disabled and people in care, then the next few categories are varying degrees of religious commitment, with maybe some sort of musical aptitude in some. It's ****ing bollox.

It's **** bollox.

There's nothing more british than moving house and pretending to be a neterist so your kids can get into a school further up the league table, it's what made us great.

Lie about the faith thing?

Lie about the faith thing?

Fortunately children are smart enough to work it out for themselves

May be of relevance,

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/catholic-school-but-we-are-devout-atheist

Faith schools should be banned. Lie like everyone else does.

Get down the comp lad.
Have confidence your excellent parenting will overwhelm any negative influences.

Faith schools should be banned

From the news today the government want to add more by removing limits because "it has prevented new Catholic schools from opening, which are more successful, more popular and more ethnically diverse than other types of state school." (source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37314149)

something is working even if it isn't the faith itself

Have confidence your excellent parenting will overwhelm any negative influences.

I had hoped that we would move into the 21st century and get rid of faith schools entirely. You want to indoctrinate your children? Fine. Go for it. On your own time. But let everyone get an unbiased education. Tmay has other ideas it seems.

Can't really answer your question. More of just a platform to air my views.

Or, apply for the faith based ones, letting your religious beliefs be known, and take them to European court of human rights on religious grounds of your bit chosen.

With regards lying, don't think that's possible. Apparently some sort of proof of attendance verified by priest or vicar is required. Otherwise I'm sure most would lie.

At the OP where do you live?

My daughter goes to a CofE school but we did not have to prove any faith. Selection was based upon distance from the school.

Agree that it is ridiculous that this situation can exist in the 21st century.

Why would I ban faith schools. Er because if you wish to believe in mumbo jumbo fine by me just don't use the public tax system to support it. We should be trying to unite children not bar them from each other because they don't believe in one brand of crap. If you want a faith school fund it yourself. God told me all this so it must be true.

Can't you just rock up to church a few times and get it signed off? I don't think you have to attend forever.

What is it that makes them more successful? Why would you want to stop that

I think perhaps it's the selection process. No way is a massive % of Loddriks community profoundly religious. Ergo a large % are prepared to compromise something to get into one of these schools. So over time the general effect polarises things. At no point am I suggesting that Loddrik doesn't care about his kids, just that others care less about their principles. I am agnostic, yet my daughter goes to a Catholic school.

just don't use the public tax system to support it

I think perhaps it's the selection process. No way is a massive % of Loddriks community profoundly religious.

From the news today the government want to add more by removing limits because "it has prevented new Catholic schools from opening, which are more successful, more popular and more ethnically diverse than other types of state school."

Wouldnt it be great if we could look at causecand effectvrathervthan just correlations. I mean imagine how my mind would be blown if we could prove that its Gods work making them better. I would almost certainly self combust!

I suspect it is just a correlation and it isn't fully understood why

Catholic school more likely to be in older more established community areas. This would pretty much guarantee positive bias on intake in a lot of areas.

CofE and Catholic are not faith schools, anyone can go. Christian values are what this country was built on, so it's no surprise these schools are the normal

Faith schools should be banned.

Christian values are what this country was built on

Catholic are not faith schools

Religion is the opposite of Education

Those individuals which make these schools successful can be retained

than moving house and pretending to be a neterist so your kids can get into a school further up the league table

This. Op is being ridiculous. Your desicion should be based on which is the best school for your child. We did this and it just so happens KJ01's school - the best in our area - is a Christian faith school. Jnr does a Christmas play until year 2, sings church hymns in assembly and occasionally comes home with stories of the 10 commandments but other than that he's turned out OK. He does rave on about Jesus or preach Christianity.

Although born in Christian denomination neither of us are overtly religious, what difference does it make as long as he receives a good level of education and is grounded in decent social skills, manners and the basic fundamental positive rules of life.

Move house my arse...

He does rave on about Jesus or preach Christianity.

What if you had been born Muslim or Jew or whatever how would you then feel if the only good schools were Catholic?

No one is born any faith. You are made into one.

I don't (massively) object to the faith schools per se - but I do object to faith being part of the admissions criteria. A CofE school we were looking at prioritises faith applicants, and requires some serious long term effort by non-religious parents wanting a place. From the admissions policy:

"Applicants who are ‘regular worshippers’ would be those who regularly attend
church services, worshipping in a Christian church at least twice a month for a minimum of one year before application."

You need a form signed by the vicar to prove this.

Those individuals which make these schools successful can be retained
wow. Retrain people to not have faith. off to dprk for you

Reading fail? Retain is not the same as retrain.

This. Op is being ridiculous. Your desicion should be based on which is the best school for your child. We did this and it just so happens KJ01's school - the best in our area - is a Christian faith school. Jnr does a Christmas play until year 2, sings church hymns in assembly and occasionally comes home with stories of the 10 commandments but other than that he's turned out OK. He does rave on about Jesus or preach Christianity.
Although born in Christian denomination neither of us are overtly religious, what difference does it make as long as he receives a good level of education and is grounded in decent social skills, manners and the basic fundamental positive rules of life.
Move house my arse...

Ridiculous why?

I'm not prepared to send my daughter to a poor school, and have apparently no chance of getting in to a decent one as I do not 'qualify', so moving home to ensure she gets to go to a decent one seems like a sensible, if less than perfect solution. Don't really see why it is so ridiculous...

Get some private tuition for the maths - I had meningitus when 5 and I was always a bit behind on my maths but I had some tutelage before secondary school and then I was amongst the top half dozen maths performers in that school after that.

If you have to accept a lower performing school locally then consider the private tutelage thing as well, cheaper than moving to be near a good school and it will put your kid near the top of the performers at school, and being in that position could well help more in terms of self-confidence than being a middle ranker at a better school.

If a school is to be a "faith" school then it's either multi denominational or its nothing at all.
Considering how much is spouted about discrimination, etc the fact this is allowed is utter bollocks.
Ban it all - period.
Want to worship a faith?
Fine - do it in your own family time, at your own church.
School is not the place for it.

We had the option of removing ours from RE classes but chose not to as fortunately it's done more as a philosophy and discussion style. If it was taught how it was when I was at school there would have been no discussion- it would have been stopped.

I would ban faith schools completely. Religion is a private matter for thone who choose to belive and shouldn't play any part in education beyond some re lessons so kids are aware of faiths

My son recently finished year 11 at a Catholic school.
We are not a religious family. I chose to apply to said school years ago because of the discipline ( observed by an outsider at the time like me by how the pupils respected , or were made to respect, their appearance , i.e school uniform ).
Secondly the school had good academic results and importantly the school was nearby, so my son could cycle to school.

He completed his GCSEs with 7 A's ( triple science,maths,history,art,,English) and 4 B's ( Religious education ,textiles,French, English literature ).

He didn't want to go back for A levels , had enough of the discipline and academics.
I'm glad I sent him there, he got a good education and enjoyed his debates he had in RE classes about faith and ethics.
He was free to be a non believer.

He now is doing an apprenticeship in Landscaping through a local landscaping company and goes to a respected college one day of the week.

Where am I going with this?
Get your child a decent education and don't be scared or resentful towards religious schools. They do take non religious pupils in, although only a small percentage.
I was just honest with my reasons when we applied - wanted best possible education,proximity and approval of discipline that goes with religious schools .

I find these threads very interesting.

It's funny to watch STW uber-Atheist Division start to froth at the mouth and riduclous stories of children getting sent for Exorcism at Catholic Schools! 🙂

I sort of agree with the removal of teaching children to "follow" a particular Religion, however, why is that Faith Schools, regardless of which Religion or Denomination, regularly out perform others?

Is it because of additional structure and discipline?

Genuine question!

I suspects it's a combination of having selective entry and a more disciplined approach supported by the parents

Religion should have no impact on school admission and if anything it should be illegal. If a school receive state funding they should be open to all. Yes they might choose to give a more religious education but no way they should apply religion to admission.

Personally I think there should be no selection allowed for any school. Schools are part of the community so should be open to all parts of the community. They should not just be factories to pass exams and send pupils to the top universities. A plumber or electrician is just as important as a doctor for society to function.

We did try and get some additional maths tuition but every tutor worth anything is booked solid seemingly indefinitely.

Probably because middle class parents have the time and money to drive their kids across a city to get them into the so called best religious school. Whereas working class parents don't have the time, money or can't be arsed and just send their kids to the local school. I'm middle class but clearly put myself in the can't be arsed camp, to be fair the schools are all quite good. If you are happy to drive you kids half way across a city to get them to school each day then you probably take their education very seriously and do a lot more out of school education and push your kids more academically. Other people probably push their kids in other ways that may not result in better exam results but their kids might be overall better rounded.

OP you have plenty of choices and have articulate them in your first post.

So you are anti the supernatural, That's one choice made. THe easy one.

So grammar or comp? Second choice. Should be easy too.

If grammar, what's the problem? Maths. So third choice - give in or do something about it?

As a parent you have your next choice - lead by example. Your daughter is bright but has an issue with maths. "Teach" her that life is all about overcoming challenges. This time it's 11+ maths

Start

https://www.cgpbooks.co.uk/Parent/books_11Plus_maths

Puts some hours and graft in together and pass the maths, it's not hard. No excuses, just a bit of effort. Early lesson in life passed and learned. SImple.

CGP really is your friend. All for the cost of an inner tube and a few hours of graft.

wow. Retrain people to not have faith. off to dprk for you

No one is born any faith. You are made into one.

Choice in state education in this country is pretty much just an illusion saying you have choice is a red herring used to gloss over the fact that lack of investment in education means many schools are shit. We could choose 3 or 4 schools for our son and got placed in one based on the fact it was the closest not sure how thats choice.

Selecting pupils based on faith shouldnt be legal within the state system imo. By all means have a school with Catholic values if you want just make them teach those who apply...but then if they didnt get to choose those with "invested"parents they might not look better!

Puts some hours and graft in together and pass the maths, it's not hard. No excuses, just a bit of effort. Early lesson in life passed and learned. SImple.

Interesting view of education that "thick" people have just not put in enough effort and everyone can pass it if they try 😕

Is it because of additional structure and discipline?

Divine intervention? 😉

Loddrick, education is more than exams as is often repeated on here. So here is a chance to educate your bright daughter about three choices:

Give in
Run Away
Overcome

Which is the best option to take, now and in life?

Surely the point is that education is the only part of public life where religious discrimination is allowed. And it is supported through tax.

I only have experience of Catholic schools, but you would really struggle to get in without being Catholic as they will always take Catholic kids first, just check out the admissions policy of your local Catholic school, it will be on the website.

I have no problem with religion being taught in schools to the willing, but I do have a very big issue with discrimination on religious grounds in access to state funded education

Give in
Run Away
Overcome

Which is the best option to take, now and in life?

Alternatively the state is providing a choice for those who would like to attend faith schools? And if that is the case, what is wrong with those who want to be their getting first dibs?

FWIW, Mrs THM teaches in a catholic school but is not a catholic nor are many of her pupils. She does rate the lunches very highly though it has to be said. Apparently the songs a quite fun to join in with too... 😉

Why should anyone get first dibs on anything because of religion? May as well just have white schools (you don't have to be white, but whites will get first choice) if they performed well, would that justify their existence?
It's discriminatory, and narrows choice. Religion should not be taught in school other than purely from an objective point of view.
I sympathise with Lodders here, I'd be nervous if I knew I was putting jnr in the hands of religious people for 30 odd hours a week.

Alternatively the state is providing a choice for those who would like to attend faith schools? And if that is the case, what is wrong with those who want to be their getting first dibs?

Because its state sponsored faith based discrimination?

Also struggling to see how reducing choice for most improves choice

That's a tough question. The state provides an option for people of certain faiths using scarce resources, Do they allocate/prioritise those resources to those who wish to use them and for who they are intended or to those who do not. Hmmmm.....

If you are nervous, the answer is simple. After all haven't you heard all the stories.....

It's discriminatory, and narrows choice. Religion should not be taught in school other than purely from an objective point of view.

Oh I see, we should discrimination against the religious and narrow their choice instead? Obvious really.....

I think people need to be more confident in their children's ability to spot propaganda and ignore it. I did when at school, the posters moaning about faith schools did as well.

As I said - I have no problem about religion being taught in schools - but I do with faith based discrimination determining access to schools. As a society we have decided that faith based discrimination is illegal in pretty much all other contexts yet have a blind spot when it comes to something as fundamental as education.

The point is about now using scarce resources in support of a discriminatory approach to selection - it is perfectly possible to do away with that and still allow faith within education.

Basically it's inclusive versus exclusive approach to education and faith

Oh I see, we should discrimination against the religious and narrow their choice instead? Obvious really.....

I'm pretty sure that discriminating against discrimination isn't discrimination - the legislation would be pretty pointless otherwise

That's a tough question. The state provides an option for people of certain faiths using scarce resources, Do they allocate/prioritise those resources to those who wish to use them and for who they are intended or to those who do not. Hmmmm.....

The question is not should faith based school exist but should they be able to discriminate. Everyone wants an equal chance to access a good school surely. ( actually I suspect many dont guve a shit about their childs education but that another matter).

Indeed - take away all choice and we are all equal!! What colour would you like your model T?

any way back on topic

Loddrik - you could nail working with numbers this weekend. Simple techniques to make rounding questions a doddle (100% on those) - could be covered today. Addition and subtraction both on Sunday.

Nail those topics - a bright girl can do that - and confidence will grow quickly. Maths is often about keeping it simple and using specific techniques. THEY CAN BE LEARNED and without that much effort. Easy to incorporate into games too. Dare I say it, maths can be fun!

Click on the CGP link and read the first few pages. Notice what they do. Start with rounding up and down. V simple methods and steps (in green ink) to make it very easy. From this, they build into addition. How?

Two methods - (1) use what you have just learned (ie rounding up and down) and apply and/or (2) the trad way we all learned as kids ie use standard columns. Their jokes are bad by kids still love them!!

Give it a go. Its fun and will open up her choices. Good luck.

Indeed - take away all choice and we are all equal!! What colour would you like your model T?

THM - since when is choice about forced exclusion based on religious (or racial etc) difference?

Your argument is logically flawed, you seem to be saying it would be discrimination to stop people discriminating on religious (etc) grounds

You tell me - actually don't bother as I don't give a monkeys, frankly. Its a waste of time making excuses.

Roll your sleeves up and get on with some work. Then the world is your oyster.

Now ratio and proportion questions - a little trickier at first.

Indeed - take away all choice and we are all equal!!

A workplace wouldn't be allowed to discriminate against heathens or religious people, in fact nowhere would like schools do.

What about churches?

I sympathise with Lodders here, I'd be nervous if I knew I was putting jnr in the hands of religious people for 30 odd hours a week.

I had the same concerns, and there is a bit of Jesus Jizz flying around since she started. As above though, I'm confident she'll be her own person and will get my views for balance.

The cruel paradox being that atheism is a faith - in a contemporary context a faith in a technocratic era - libtarded ...

Reading fail?

Roll your sleeves up and get on with some work. Then the world is your oyster.
Now ratio and proportion questions - a little trickier at first.

Unless you are excluded from a good school because your parents dont pray to the right sky fairy or indeed dont pray at all. I suppose in your world of private education or grammar school then hard work does pay off. In the rest of the world we lie to the kids and tell them if they work hard they can get where anyone can but actually they will find it far far harder if their parents are poor or uneducated or just a bit shite or in this case are not Catholic. If you think this is a good thing then you have my pity.

I'm a pretty committed atheist but my boys have gone to C of E schools. I'm surprised that you have faith based requirements for admission. I've just looked at their admissions policy and it has faith 6th on the list and only requires children adhere to christian principles. Siblings, disability and then area are the three top criteria.

As touched as I am by the generosity of your offer, save your pity for those who are lied to or who have people making excuses for them. They are the losers ultimately.

Anyway, given recent Towers correspondence I'm out of this debate before it goes further in the wrong direction.

Good luck with your choice loddrick. I hope you make the correct one. Maths is fun and really not that difficult. At least not below GCSE. And CGP books are a great help. Your daughter will be fine.

Anyway, given recent Towers correspondence I'm out of this debate before it goes further in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure you were in it in any meaningful manner, apart from to tell us GCSE maths is easy.....obviously all those that fail to get a C are lazy and spend too many fridays on the golf course with business leaders.

The cruel paradox being that atheism is a faith - in a contemporary context a faith in a technocratic era - libtarded ...

The purpose of education is to educate, religion should be completely separate and if it were, it would not hinder the job at hand for anyone. Removing it is a no-lose AFAIAC.

I would not disagree with the first sentence. But I'd be surprised if the church would allow it's land and buildings to be used if this benefit to them was removed. I know a big school around around here lay derelict and unused for a long time. My memory tells me Quakers invested in it to get it back up and running.

I think the OP has a very good case for kicking off as almost every bus in Liverpool has a poster stuck on the back for
"Our lady of pity school is better than the non faith place down the road"
"St Patrick's academy kicks the arse of the other places"
"If your not RC your not going to get an education collage"

The cruel paradox being that atheism is a faith

libtarded ...

Not really nonsense. You can't say catagorically that there is no designer any more than you can say one exists without faith.
Agnostic is the only logical position that doesn't require faith.

Not really nonsense. You can't say catagorically that there is no designer any more than you can say one exists without faith.

Nope, it's nonsense.

I'm surprised that you have faith based requirements for admission.

The RC school here does, but not all do. Catholic trumps active other faith, which trumps no faith. Distance is used within these groups.

'We' are in the second category. Three years ago our eldest wouldn't have got in, but would have last year.

'We' being my wife. Me and the kids are burning in hell.

Not really nonsense. You can't say catagorically that there is no designer any more than you can say one exists without faith.
Agnostic is the only logical position that doesn't require faith.

You don't know what the words atheist or agnostic mean.

You don't have to believe in the supernatural to go to church, as OP is finding out the education and networking benefits are very real.

Or

Maths tutor

Having faith, or pretending to have faith, should not be any requirement to get a state-funded education and it is disgusting and immoral that it appears to be.

Even if there was a 'designer' there is no way they are any form of god-like thing that requires worship and controls our lives, and if they are then they don't deserve worship anyway. Stephen Fry has it right.