[Closed] “Facts” I learned today on a speed awareness course

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law

I thought it was just illegal to touch the phone when driving.When used as a phone or satnav basically? Using it as a nav in itself isn't illegal surely?

As for paying for a maccyd etc, that's on private land, not a public highway... So can't see that as illegal either??

I’m glad you put the “ “ around “facts”

As they most certainly aren’t 👍

Best most useful thing I learned on my awareness course was "Handles out, bin men about. Handles in, bin men have been."

I now make sure I leave my bin the correct way around when I put it out.

I thought it was just illegal to touch the phone when driving.When used as a phone or satnav basically? Using it as a nav in itself isn’t illegal surely?

The law says using a handheld phone for an interactive communication purpose whilst driving is illegal (s41D(B)). BUT that doesn't mean that if the device is not handheld you aren't committing a separate offence of either driving without due care and attention (s3) or using a vehicle whilst an electronic device obstructs your view [I paraphrased that one - which I think is s41D(A)]. ANY portable sat nav could fall foul of either. Even an in built satnav could get you in bother for operating the functions whilst driving if they show you were not driving with due care. I imagine as an instructor on these courses its probably easier to teach to the dumbest person in the groups level, than worry about the nuances of the law.

As for paying for a maccyd etc, that’s on private land, not a public highway… So can’t see that as illegal either??

Its in a place the public have access to - so the RTA still applies. Until someone decides to try a test case (which means not just going to magistrates, but then whoever loses appealing) there will be no absolute certainty - but does the phone actually need a data connection to make a payment (anyone tried it in airplane mode). If not then I think a reasonable lawyer would show that it was not within the meaning of an interactive communication; even if you managed to find a police officer, and a prosecutor who thought it was worth pursuing. As far as I am aware nobody has yet faced the question whither a watch strapped to your wrist is "handheld".

I did a course about 4 years ago. I picked up a couple of things. But, one of the main things I took from it was that it doesn't stop people speeding. It was my first (and only) speeding course but I was in the minority. Most had done them before. The two men delivering the course were very patronising and talked down to us until someone asked if they had ever had points on their licence. They changed their tone, but only a little bit.

It's detention for grown ups. You have been a little bit naughty so you have to give up a few hours of your time to show you're sorry.

The one I did a few weeks ago in Hants by comparison was well presented, not remotely patronising and focussed a lot on what to look out for to avoid inadvertently speeding, so visual clues other than the blatantly obvious big signs with numbers on!

Did seem concerning to me though just how many people didn’t know they were speeding until the letter arrived.

I would agree with mattbe above. Did course a few years ago now, also Hants, it was useful and I certainly speed less and pay more attention to my speed when driving.

J

2. Smart motorways have hidden sensors in the tarmac that can defect tailgaters or middle lane hoggers and prosecute them as if they were speeding (great if they could but I can’t believe this is the case… the instructor seemed to be making it up when pushed)

There are inductive loops hidden in the surfacing that can detect lane occupancy, vehicle speed and length and flow patterns including the gap between vehicles. However the data is for general network usage and to alert the Regional Control Centre to potential incidents, they are not suitable for enforcement. Check out Webtris to see some of the output. The loops are being phased out in favour of radar which is less of a maintenance liability and can gather data on vehicle shape to aid with categorisation.

but does the phone actually need a data connection to make a payment (anyone tried it in airplane mode). If not then I think a reasonable lawyer would show that it was not within the meaning of an interactive communication;

A phone doesn't need 'data' to work for contactless payment, but it is communicating (with data) to the NFC reader, so technically, I think that may still count. Either way the phone doesn't have to be used for interactive comms to break the law, if you have turned it off and use it to squash a fly on your dashboard, its still technically illegal

In fact, your card itself is also enabling 2 way data comms to an NFc reader when you tap, so maybe using that is technically illegal too??

Either way, you won't get prosecuted, it's not in the public interest

I thought it was illegal to touch your phone whilst driving. So if the satnav function was set before you started the car and you didn't touch it until you reached your destination and parked with the engine off it should be ok. However we all know that nobody really does that. The woman in front of me on the M1 on Momday was merrily flipping through her phone between satnav and messages with it attached to her windscreen.

Long story but on the a 697 in Northumberland and didn’t realise the limit started as far out of a village as it did.

Powburn? Yeah that 30mph limit sign before the garage is not just for decoration.

Powburn? Yeah that 30mph limit sign before the garage is not just for decoration.

Thought of signing up as one of the course leaders there drac. Should fit in nicely with the patronising instructor type 😂

So if I "hey Google" while driving is that ok? I've maybe done it to: set nav destination, make and answer calls (both to avoid a smash on the bypass, and tell Mrs 100th I'd be late) and skip tracks on the music player.

The one I did a few years ago was quite interesting.

Learnt a few things, what actual defines a "dual carriageway" was something I didn't know.

However, the instructor was patronising and very anti cyclist. Some of her remarks were unbelievable.

You're allowed to touch a phone whilst driving, for any purpose just not hold it. Obviously you can be done for driving carelessly if the above means you are driving carelessly (ie, responding to a text, unlike pressing 'answer' on a call)

There seems to be a lot of confusion and interpretation on what you Can do and what you Can Not do with a phone whilst driving.

Who knows the “truth”?

You’re allowed to touch a phone whilst driving, for any purpose just not hold it.

Guess again.

Thought of signing up as one of the course leaders there drac. Should fit in nicely with the patronising instructor type

I've lived and worked in the area for years, I've seen why the 30 mph was moved further out of the village. It was a 40mph by the garage a few years ago which meant people didn't realise it started so soon and were doing nearer 50 in the village. They then changed it to 30mph which is shown by signs and road markings.

Who knows the “truth”?

Starter for 10...

Best most useful thing I learned on my awareness course was “Handles out, bin men about. Handles in, bin men have been

You'd be in trouble in Stirling then. Our bins are lifted by front lip, so bins are always handle in....

I'm very aware of my phone these days - it's my sat nav and music in the car. I use Android Auto and voice control, and it has a good feature that freezes it if you touch the screen for much more than a prod, discovered while one of my kids was attempting DJ status.

A friend is traffic cop, he suggested that a phone on dash mount being prodded occasionally was fine. Holding it, mounting it middle of screen (as is more common) or nodding dog lap mounting results in some blues and a word, probable fine..and anything that looked like texting of Facebook was instant angry cop and certain points.

Yes Drac. It was powburn. I just got caught out as I was com8ng south and overtook someone who was doing 40 in the 60 up the road and before I knew it the limit had changed from 60 to 30 on the bend before the village. I couldn’t slam on the anchors as the car behind had also overtaken and was right up my a&£e. That’s the thing, I was aware of what I was doing and just try8ng to do the right thing at the time. In hindsight I prob shouldn’t have overtaken the guy in front but you know how it goes, I’d been following him for a while, he was doing 35-40-35 in the 60 which can get a bit frustrating. I was genuinely annoyed with myself as I just don’t speed through places like that as I live in a place where people do habitually and it annoys me.

Regarding the course, it was useful for some stuff and the instructors did their best. It just annoys me when people make stuff up or over egg something to scaremonger those who are a bit stupid.

It would be great if the authorities could solve tailgating on the motorway through the average speed cams on smart motorways but I bet they can’t. The instructor was emphatic that they could and have prosecuted people already.

And the McDonald’s payment issue - surely the more distracting thing there is picking up a happy meal or a boiling hot Costa - rather than using your phone like a credit card to swipe a keypad.

Thought it would be there and at least you admit it was a silly mistake.

Such a shame that those offered a responsibility to help us understand how to be safer reduce their credibility by lacing a vocabulary with bullshit.

I did a speed awareness course 4 years years ago which had none of that yet was incredibly educational.  I still remember the content now, which is a testament to its purpose when delivered correctly.

#2 sound like BS

might be able to detect that there's too much traffic too close for the speed.  prosecute? no, not unless there's a camera too.

would be nice to have though, especially in Germany.  €240 fine there for tailgating on the autobahn, roughly 4x the fine for a speeding ticket for not too much over the limit.  I've even been tailgated by the Polizei, who must have been so close they could read the SatNag thru the rear window (with me making doubly sure I was not using it!).

at least you admit it was a silly mistake

That's another one you naughty naughty boy!

We had a similar person doing 35/40 in a 60 on the way back from Wales on Sunday, it is a little bit infuriating, and there was at least 25 cars behind him at one point. The main problem was the lady directly behind him was right up his arse but would not overtake, so she wasn't leaving enough room for a simple one car at a time overtake. Several loons did a three car blitz but like the op there was definitely a few areas where I wasn't sure of the exact speed limit at the time, so luckily I've hopefully stayed in dracs goodbooks.

That’s another one you naughty naughty boy!

WTF are you waffling on about?

Your patronising approach to anyone who ever speeds, that's all.

Eh? Because I said he at least he admitted it was a mistake.

🙄

guess again

How about you guess again, Drac..

Provided that a phone can be operated without holding it, then hands-free equipment is not prohibited by this legislation. Therefore, the use of a phone as a sat nav is lawful providing you don't have to hold it.

I'm assuming that Drac's attitude to speeding is due to having to deal with the results on numerous occasions. A bit of mild disapproval is a fairly restrained response.

There's a chap who lives near me who got done for speeding (40ish in a 30 IIRC) and opted for one of those courses. The 'instructor' stood up at the front and said something like, "Now, you all know why you're here. Driving around like you're a F1 World Champion. Well, you're not, are you? None of you are."

Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. "Erm, actually, I am."

And he is. 😁

I thought that the speed limit change there must have moved north from where I thought it was nearer the garage. I assumed I had room for my overtake but was into the lead in to the 30 before I knew it. Don’t drive it that often but it deffo caught me out. Even caught my father in law out - advanced driver, ex mountain rescue team leader, general safe and legal bloke. I think lots of folk have been pinged there. Perhaps some advanced warning of the wind down to 30 would help. Iirc the limit change is just round a corner. With a tailgater slamming the brakes on isn’t an option.

Provided that a phone can be operated without holding it, then hands-free equipment is not prohibited by this legislation. Therefore, the use of a phone as a sat nav is lawful providing you don’t have to hold it.

Indeed, I hope everyone has read timba's link ? If you do all your questions will be answered.

Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. “Erm, actually, I am.”

The helmet should have been a bit of a giveaway really

(40ish in a 30 IIRC)

83ish on a motorway

Smart motorways have hidden sensors in the tarmac

Not only that! But leading up to [i]most[/i] traffic lights... "have you ever wondered why, when you're in a hurry, the lights always seem to go red..?"
Sort of bullshit that undermines the usefulness of these courses. I know there are a hell of a lot of morons out there, but don't treat us all like one.

If you get frustrated with people who drive slower than the speed limit, then you probably shouldn't be driving. There's no place for frustrated drivers on the roads.

Driving around like you’re a F1 World Champion. Well, you’re not, are you? None of you are.”

Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. “Erm, actually, I am.”

Easy answer - shut up and save it for the track.

Thanks for the link timba

Some folks on here would do best by spending 10mins reading it eh?

🤷‍♂️

Iirc the limit change is just round a corner.

It's on a long straight it changes and has painted indications on the road, I think it has a warning before but may be thinking of another stretch but there is an led display showing your speed but it was probably too late.

How about you guess again, Drac.

You said Any though it's not any.

Learnt a few things, what actual defines a “dual carriageway” was something I didn’t know.

I don't mind admitting that I get confused about national speed limits on single carriage ways, dual carriageways etc and to recognise when it changes. I don't understand why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?*

*edit, I should add that I usually end up driving slower than I probably could, I'm a bit paranoid about it so eer on side of caution.

A couple of observations:

a) we all think that we are better drivers than we actually are.

b) we don't like being told that we aren't as good as we think.

I get confused about national speed limits on single carriage ways, dual carriageways etc

A dual carriageway is when there is a physical barrier between the traffic lanes. There may be only a single lane going in each direction but there are 2 "carriageways".

You can have 2 lanes on each side of the road, with no physical separation and that is a single carriageway.

NSL is 70 on a dual and 60 on a single.

why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?

Seems pretty daft and pointless to me as well.

why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?

Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.

Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.

Yup because of that.

5lab- if you check the definition of a phone in the legislation you will see it doesn’t cover NFC frequencies. If you read the case law you will see it has gone some way to confirming that use requires interactive communication. Squashing a fly may still be driving without due care but if contested will NOT get a conviction at court under s41(d)b.

Having NSL signs is sensible as it allows both different limits for different classes of vehicle as @Martinhutch points out and also means those limits can be changed without having to change every sign in the country.

It's up to you as driver of a vehicle to know what speed limits apply in any given situation - ignorance is no defence in law and all that.

I did a speed awareness course in London about a year ago. The folks running it were both driving instuctors so a little on the patronising side, but not too bad. While some of the information they passed on was clearly wrong there was some interesting stuff in there. What I noticed most on the course was how little the majority of the group actually seemed to know about speed limits - or driving in general in fact.

The most surprising thing though was that, despite all the warnings, when someone turned up for the course a good 45 minutes late they still let them in and let them complete the course.

whitestone

A couple of observations:

a) we all think that we are better drivers than we actually are.

b) we don’t like being told that we aren’t as good as we think.

Speak for yourself. I'm a shit driver, which is why I try to avoid it mostly.
Weird thing is - most people really really get annoyed by having their driving criticised. I just nod, yep, can't help it. I'm safe around vulnerable road users though, I'll give myself that.

Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.

But those lower limits still apply when it says 70 in a red circle, so the logic fails. As I understand it, the reason is a historical legislative one. The NSL sign means it is an unrestricted road and therefore the national limit applies; any other sign requires a traffic regulation order or similar to apply a limit (even if that limit happens to be the same as the NSL would have been). Imagine if a government chose to change NSLs - say increasing Mways to 80 and reducing single cway to 50 for cars. They can do that with one blanket order and no need to change the signs. It’s really not that hard to expect someone who drives a car on the road to know two numbers:

Barrier/divider down the middle - 70
No barrier - 60.

Unless streetlights.

The area where I have some sympathy for is the car derived van v van, where subtle differences in how the vehicle was registered make a difference, especially for those using multiple vehicles through work etc.

It’s up to you as driver of a vehicle to know what speed limits apply in any given situation – ignorance is no defence in law and all that.

It would be interesting to find out how many folk with normal vans on here aren't actually aware that they should only be doing 50 on a NSL single carriageway, and 60 on a dc. I think the latest mobile cameras cross-check vehicle class with DVLA.

You said Any though it’s not any.

for what purpose are you not allowed to use it then, assuming your driving does not fall below the standard to be considered driving carelessly?

f you get frustrated with people who drive slower than the speed limit, then you probably shouldn’t be driving. There’s no place for frustrated drivers on the roads.

Well 35 in a 60 is frustrating and I'm sure most would agree. If it had been for say 5 mins no problem but it was for nearer 40 mins. It was a Sunday and we were pootling home from holiday so no great drama other than laddo wanted to get back to hit the jumps with his mates, however it clearly was causing frustration with other drivers who were going for the big overtakes at some very inappropriate moments.
Anyhoo I'm going to read timbas link as we used my phone as a sat nav on the way home.

I still think the 60mph limit for vans on proper dual carriageways is hugely outdated. Especially the lighter load capacity ones. What is the difference between most of them and a motorway where 70mph is permitted?

Well 35 in a 60 is frustrating and I’m sure most would agree. If it had been for say 5 mins no problem but it was for nearer 40 mins.

I agree it is very frustrating. Also, the amount of drivers I encounter that bimble along at 40 on a 60 and then don't slow down going through villages is unbelievable.

However, you have to put it in context, 40 mins at 35 instead of 60, only wasted 15 minutes of your time. So it made little or no difference even to laddo and his jumps.

According to the sat nav on the phone it was 20 mins so the time/speed almost tallys up, as I say we were stuck behind him as I couldn't safely overtake, I'll be honest there was a couple of spots where I could have taken a couple of bimblers at a time but I knew for a fact I'd be speeding once the overtake was completed so that was the factor stopping me from doing it. Back in impreza days it wouldn't have been an issue as it would have been in and out of each individual car quite easily.

Timbas link was useful since I have a car that I use a cradled phone for satnav.

To the OP. It’s odd that they didn’t have the /// then // then / 30mph warning signs coming into the village since a 60mph to 30mph drop is quite a large speed change.

60mph to 30mph drop is quite a large speed change

Drive in north Wales or round here in Derbyshire and it's a standard thing.

Drive in north Wales or round here in Derbyshire and it’s a standard thing.

Or pretty much anywhere across the UK.

Not only that! But leading up to most traffic lights… “have you ever wondered why, when you’re in a hurry, the lights always seem to go red..?”
Sort of bullshit that undermines the usefulness of these courses. I know there are a hell of a lot of morons out there, but don’t treat us all like one.

The A75 going west from Dumfries actually does appear to have two sets of those! There are two sets of lights in/out of a village which serve no purpose, but always go red if you trigger the sign before them!

The most surprising thing though was that, despite all the warnings, when someone turned up for the course a good 45 minutes late they still let them in and let them complete the course.

If they had driven a bit faster they may have arrived on time...

I still think the 60mph limit for vans on proper dual carriageways is hugely outdated. Especially the lighter load capacity ones. What is the difference between most of them and a motorway where 70mph is permitted?

Dual c/ways can have crossing points/slip roads on the right, shorter entrance slips, potential for tractors and other slow moving vehicles (including cyclists and mopeds), possibility of pedestrians crossing, approaches to roundabouts and even traffic lights none of which appear on m/ways.

Unless streetlights.

The streetlights thing is a tricky one. For a start, it was never mentioned at all when I learned to drive, I'd be amazed if your average driver knew about it.

It really only applies if there's no other information. If you've got a single carriageway with regular streetlights and no other signage, it's probably a 30; streetlights and NSL repeaters, it's a 60. It's really just a rule of thumb - the limit that applies is whatever it said on the last pole you passed.

gastromonkey - It’s detention for grown ups. You have been a little bit naughty so you have to give up a few hours of your time to show you’re sorry.

I think that is one of the two fundamental problems with these courses. They are perceived as exactly this by a large number of people who attend, they have no real intention on changing their behaviour or learning from the experience. Most people are there to avoid the points and its effectively made it a "15 pts" to a ban world.

I think the second problem is there is significant variability in quality/consistency and lack of fact checking, as this thread emphasises. The same applies to all sorts of low end training though - first aid courses, health and safety courses etc.

Dual c/ways can have crossing points/slip roads on the right, shorter entrance slips, potential for tractors and other slow moving vehicles (including cyclists and mopeds), possibility of pedestrians crossing, approaches to roundabouts and even traffic lights none of which appear on m/ways.

So why do vans have to go slower for those reasons?

The streetlights thing is a tricky one. For a start, it was never mentioned at all when I learned to drive, I’d be amazed if your average driver knew about it.

. Jesus how old are you? Did they not teach this when you no longer needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of you? When I learned it was generally described as "built up areas" but then the question was "how do you know it is a built up area? - it has streetlights". I'm fairly certain that anyone who has sat a theory test will have had to revise something to that effect not to mention anyone who drove in a built up area during their test or training (surely almost everyone) had to comply with the limit - exceeding it would get you a fail.

It really only applies if there’s no other information. If you’ve got a single carriageway with regular streetlights and no other signage, it’s probably a 30; streetlights and NSL repeaters, it’s a 60. It’s really just a rule of thumb – the limit that applies is whatever it said on the last pole you passed.

its not a rule of thumb. A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit. If there is signage to the contrary it will have repeaters, and usually signs on every side road.

Greater braking / stopping distances?

I did a course a few years ago. I took two things away from it:

1) Anyone coming away going "wow, I learned loads" probably shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. There were a couple of interesting bits but it was mostly very basic stuff.

2) The number of people probably falling into the first category was astonishing.

The carriageway example above for instance, I think aside from the instructors I was the only one in the room who knew the difference and what the limits were on them. I guess this is why you see so many people doing 40mph in a 60 - they genuinely have no clue what the speed limit is.

"The use of a mobile phone or similar device for texting/internet access etc, while driving is also prohibited if the phone (or other device) has to be held in order to operate it."

So if the phone is in a cradle it's legal to access facebook whilst driving? I must be confused as that sounds ridiculous.

You must stay in full control of your vehicle at all times. The police can stop you if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted and you can be prosecuted

Texting or reading facebook you're not going to be in control, being a in a cradle does not make it so you can do any task.

Greater braking / stopping distances?

And this is where I say it's outdated.
I'd hazard a guess at my light payload transit sport stopping quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board. Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.

A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit. If there is signage to the contrary it will have repeaters, and usually signs on every side road.

This does seem like a pretty crazy way to organise things. I think laws that the general public are expected to follow on a daily basis should be VERY clear and obvious. It really shouldn't be a logic quiz.

Drivers should never be left thinking: "Ah.. right so there are two carriageways here, but does that reservation actually count as a physical barrier or not? Oh there are overhead lights, but I think they might be more than 183 metres apart. There's no repeater sign but is that because it is a 30 where repeaters are not required or because it is an NSL and the lights are far enough apart?"

I’d hazard a guess at my light payload transit sport stopping quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board.

And if it's carrying several tons? It'd be a nonsense to have separate limits for laden / unladen goods vehicles, it'd be impossible to police.

Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.

No arguments here. To the best of my knowledge the braking distances listed in THC haven't changed in my lifetime, I'm reasonably sure that my 17-plate Octavia can out-brake a Ford Anglia. Veering dangerously back on-topic for a moment, I questioned this on the SAC and got told that thinking distances haven't changed, which is a bit of a non-answer really.

Of course, the speeds at which you're likely to kill someone rather than injure them in the event of a collision hasn't changed all that much.

quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board

Never happens. Max is 1 adult and a couple of kids on the school run.

I did a course, and the only thing I learned is that the reason you don't always (or even usually) get repeaters in a 20 is because with traffic calming it's not required.

The instructor did claim, after asking people what possible reason there could be to tailgate, and me failing to resist "slipstreaming", that you had to be within 30cm to get a benefit. My cycling experience says no to this, but I didn't bother arguing.

Jesus how old are you?

I passed my test in 1990. The theory test didn't exist then beyond half a dozen THC questions at the end of the practical.

then the question was “how do you know it is a built up area? – it has streetlights”.

You know, I don't recall ever feeling the need to ask a driving instructor what a town looked like. I was reasonably familiar with the concept by that age.

A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit.

Yes, and whilst we're seemingly patronising each other I've highlighted the important bit of that for you.

The only time you'd ever have to worry about this is if you've forgotten what the last sign you passed was, or missed it. This can readily be resolved by paying attention. The number of times a speed limit changes without signage is never.

The most interesting thing that was put forward at mine (that I had not considered before) was that braking is not linear - ie the majority of actual slowing happens in the final moments before stopping. So even if the overall stopping distance at 35 is only a few metres more than 30, the amount of speed you will be carrying into those extra metres will be a lot more than 5mph.

Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.

No arguments here. To the best of my knowledge the braking distances listed in THC haven’t changed in my lifetime, I’m reasonably sure that my 17-plate Octavia can out-brake a Ford Anglia.

I'm no 'making progress' driving god but one minor indiscretion on the way out of village past the last junction, house and pavement but crucially before the NSL sign did see me doing a speed course a few years ago. The instructor tried to pre-empt that question by saying that although brakes had improved, this was off-set by 'reaction time' - I asked how reducing the largest part of the overall time to stop would be off-set by the smaller part staying the same but didn't get an answer.

I also asked if they could explain why DfT guidance in the form of Manual for Streets & DMRB had been updated to reflect the performance of modern vehicles rather than relying on the Highway Code (1960s?) but again no answer.

Once they'd come out with bollocks about the most dangerous driver they'd ever known did the course and became an instructor themselves I knew it was just Bullshit Bingo / Adult Detention and nodded and smiled at the appropriate moments to go home as soon as possible

I did one about 8 years ago, all the above sounds familiar- mixture of patronising and useful info, plus a collection of drivers with virtually no knowledge of road rules. It's a miracle things go ok most of the time if that's your average driver, and knowing so many terrible drivers are out there is another reason for driving slower. I was caught at 9am on a Sunday morning, sunny, dry, no traffic, dual carriageway. Had sped up after 70 went down to 50 with a speed camera, camera van was waiting around the corner. So while I felt annoyed that a trap like that wasn't going to catch a dangerous speeder and conditions were safe for my speed, I could hardly complain about getting caught. I already drove very carefully in 20 and 30 zones, usually under the limit by 5 - 10mph depending on situation, but on faster roads I viewed the speed limit as more of a guidance figure, just don't get caught. While the course was 50/50 good/bad, it definitely made me think about the issues, and I calmed my driving down a lot. I certainly gave it a lot more thought than if I'd just got another SP30. I'll still occasionally do 80-90 on a clear motorway or d/c if it seems appropriate, but 75 is my default max speed most of the time.