[Closed] F1 time

I haven't seen the race, so what I'm about to write will probably be complete bollocks

Oh dear. So instead of actually engaging with the debate, you've resorted to childish nonsense. How very mature. 🙄

Care to explain why it's 'complete bollocks' then? Or are you incapable of doing so without being a dick?

Formula one driver who actually races causes outrage.

How strange.

I know; ridiculous, isn't it? 😆

Care to explain why it's 'complete bollocks' then?

It's pretty self explanatory really. You stated you'd not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.

See, easy.

And you don't even have to abuse people to make your point either.

Now, people are getting their knickers in a twist because one driver actually decided to race (isn't that the point?)! Make your minds up!

The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…

Webber: I turned the engine down and was reassured twice that we would not use the cars against each other

Subtle difference here is that this is akin to a fight being broken up, with Webber essentially having his arms held back while Vettel has struggled free and taken a free punch. Really the act of an honourable racer?

I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

Pretty much how I interpreted thx1138's post, yes.

The thing is, at this stage in the season, the only team orders are 'both finish'. From what I've heard, most teams don't mind a bit of overtaking between team mates(!) up until the last pit stop, then you stay in position to preserve the car and get two drivers in the points.
This isn't good enough for Vettel, hence why so many people are unhappy.

The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…

...Webber making excuses for losing a race. something which has become quite familiar over the last few years. Fact is he's not as good a driver as Vettel; hence why RB quite rightly chose to favour him over Webber.

Last year's championship was decided over just 3 points. Vettel gained 7 more points on Sunday, than he would have done for finishing 2nd. come the end of the season, that 7 extra points could well be crucial; indeed, if we look to 2010 the margin was just 4 points, and in 2007 and 2008, just 1 point. Now Webber, given his results, really doesn't look like a championship contender (his best year was when Vettel was still very inexperienced, and he still lost), so better that Vettel did what he did, to give himself the best possible chance. Vettel isn't in it for anyone's benefit but his own, and that's the kind of 'arrogance', selfishness and single-mindedness that is required to win WCs. Senna and Schumacher were never particularly 'sporting', but they are hailed as true greats. Webber is not; he's a dependable rear-gunner at best.

If Webber really has what it takes, he'd have gone after Vettel (or not allowed him to pass in the first place). He didn't, and it shows that in that team, it's Vettel who is the real leader.

It's pretty self explanatory really. You stated you'd not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.

I didn't have to, given the wealth of comment and information available in the media. I'm merely commenting on the nature of Vettel's actions, not the pass itself. But you'd have known that, if you weren't so belligerent. 😉

I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i'm wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why. 🙂

(I shan't be holding my breath waiting though)

[img] [/img]

Because winning's what it's all about. First is everything; second is nowhere.

Bollocks!

Most famous british racing driver?

[img] [/img]

Moss believed the manner in which the battle was fought was as important as the outcome. This sporting attitude cost him the 1958 Formula 1 World Championship. When rival Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a penalty in the Boavista Urban Circuit in Porto, Portugal, Moss defended Hawthorn's actions. Hawthorn was accused of reversing in the track after spinning and stalling his car on an uphill section of the track. Moss himself shouted the suggestion to Hawthorn that he steer downhill, against traffic, to bump-start the car, which Hawthorn did. Moss's quick thinking and then gracious defence of Hawthorn before the stewards preserved Hawthorn's 6 points for his second-place finish (behind Moss). Hawthorn went on to beat Moss for the title by one point even though he won only one race that year to Moss's four, making Hawthorn Britain's first World Champion.

Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.

A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i'm wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why.

Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner. 😀

Webber could have put Vettel into the gravel, but he didn't. Horner got his 1-2. Next time Webber might decide to put Vettel into the gravel and leave Horner with no points at all. Unless Vettel thinks he needs to take every possible point off Webber its a really stupid move at this time of the season.

Bollocks!

Most famous british racing driver?

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I've forgotten.

Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.

Bollocks. 😉

Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner.

Remind me again how many WCs Moss won, I've forgotten.

What do we think of Lewis Hamilton; a driver so determined and focussed he was prepared to lie (along with his team) in order to gain an unfair advantage, as well as ram other drivers off the track etc?

Vettel was only able to beat Webber after Webber turned his engine down. Hardly racing.... 🙄

You would think that he would've turned up back up as soon as Vettel started trying to pass then, eh? If he did, then he got beaten. If he didn't, then he rolled over. Either way he looks like a looser, whereas the winner goes home and ****s the prom queen

😉

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I've forgotten.

Well, that was my point 😀

The man's a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.
The fact that he didn't win a top flight world championship is irrelevant.
He will be remembered as a hero and one of the all time greats.

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

Vettel's only mistake was to 'apologise' to webber. I would respect him more if he'd just turned round and said 'look Mark, I'm better than you, end of. If you really want to beat me, and think you have what it takes, then do so. If you can't do that, then stick to being number 2. And quit whinging'. 😉

Maybe we should start calling Webber 'Pom'. 😀

The man's a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.

If I wanted to watch someone being a 'decent human being', I'd watch a documentary about Princess Di or Mathatma Ghandi or whoever. But I want to be entertained when it comes to sport. So I prefer the pantomime villains to the do-gooders. Because the villains are far more interesting. 🙂

Because the villains are far more interesting.

Look, for a salutary lesson about what happens to cheats and rotters I recommend that you watch this excellent documentary on the early history of cross channel aero racing:

[img] [/img]

Who ended up in the sewage?
[img] [/img]

Exactly.

😆

'look Mark, I'm better than you, end of.

Well actually, he was on different tyres which were the faster ones which he'd left to the last stint so that if he was fighting FA or similar, he'd stand a good chance of getting past. That's probably part of why he was frustrated to be told to sit behind webber who was slower (at least in part due to his slower tyres) because it meant that he wasn't going to get the chance to use the faster tyre and if he'd known that, he'd have used them earlier in the race and quite possibly been ahead of webber in the first place...

He was still wrong to overtake.

He got passed because Webber let him.

Was that before or after nearly putting him into the pit wall?

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..." Oh and as if on que comes a properly respectful English gent . 🙄

Hamilton is hardly the most popular person here, is he?

nickc - Member

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."

It's got nothing to do with nationality 🙂
Fangio is generally considered the most sportsmanlike of racing drivers.

It's about being a whining, duplicitous little weasel.
Something the three drivers you mention surely know an awful lot about.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub.
If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards whilst saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult? 😀

The new rules necessitate a more tactical approach which is clearly difficult for some people to understand.

With 12 WC between them....

Let's be honest here, F1 has never, will never be about being "fair" it's about winning. That's why those drivers are successful Innit

[i]It's got nothing to do with nationality[/i] apart from the Old guy being British, and the others being Spanish or German

He got passed because Webber let him.

Ah, so Webber is happy to stay number 2 driver, and help Vettel win another WC then? That's jolly decent of him.

He was still wrong to overtake.

Of course; how terribly ungentlemanly of Vettel to try and actually win a race. But then how can he be 'wrong', if Webber sportingly 'let' him win? 😕

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

No they won't. He'll be remembered for being an incredibly focussed, committed and talented seven time WC. Which he was/is.

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

Depends on whether or not it's a 'race'. 😉

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."

Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders.

I think the fundamental issue in the whole situation is the management at RedBull - Brawn faced a pretty similar situation with both Merc drivers wanting that last step on the podium, but he dealt with it firmly and that was that. There's no real sign that anyone at RedBull did the same thing - messages from race engineers rather than anyone higher up. If Dr Helmet had got on the radio to Vettel I expect the situation may have been different, but AFAIK Horner didn't lay down the law to either of them.

Team orders (yes they are and always have been a part of many forms of motorsport) will only work if there's respect both ways, and at least some inkling of consequences if they're not followed. Vettel acted that way because the disobeying the team to win was more attractive than the option of obeying the team and coming 2nd, ergo he's not that bothered about what comes next.

8 engines. Could bite a few teams that rule..

F1 needs to decide if it's a race for Team against Team OR Driver against Driver....you can't have both.

There has been a Constructors title for more than 50 years.

.

tyger - it's a race of drivers who are employed by teams. Always has been. If you asked a team principal if they'd prefer to win either the constructor's title or the driver's title they would all give the same answer.

I *think* that the horse racing world has jockeys as free agents employed by the horse owners on a race by race basis, which would turn the F1 model on its head. Don't know of a single motor racing series that works like that though.

Still, at least Alonso didn't win... 🙂

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

If there's only 1 beer left then yes, thirstiest bloke wins

[i]Its a great trollargument defeated only by the fact they are both johnny foreigner [/i]

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no, and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man" (obeys orders) and he has a face like a puppy who's just done a whoopsie, whereas we're more than happy to have Vettel as our panto villain, and better still he's a dastardly Hun, he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage, or wear leather shorts under his overalls....

However the alternative is factory drivers full of PR speak following Team orders and very very dull Grand Prix, thank heavens for the likes of the Vettels of this world.

he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage

Best line of the thread for me

"Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders."

You didnt read history then.

Red bull is a team of tits with Adrian Newey designing their car. I don't think either Vettel or Webber would contend in another car, both average drivers. Christian Horner is a weak gaffer too. They are the team that nobody supports. Ask anyone who their favorite f1 team is, and any that say red bull are soulless weirdos!

that sir, may be the weakest "xxxxxx team are shit" post I've ever read!

Didn't go all out. I will now though!

It's not that they are shit. It's more that they are impossible to like. Soulless, gutless, charachterless whinging tossers.

Iv always been a McLaren fan. Probably due to the Senna era, but more recently Hamilton. They have class and style, and you don't get this bollocks squabbling. And I don't count the Prost/Senna era as squabbling, as both had balls and openly hated each other. Rather than "oooh sorry I passed Mark by mistake" or "Sebastian wasn't supposed to pass me, oooh" (both said in Kenneth Williams stylee!)

Red Bull is a team made good by one man's design. Adrian Newey has had succes everywhere he's gone. So Red Bulls success is his amazing feat, not two tit average drivers, or a weak ass team leader.

Can't wait til Newey goes elsewhere, or Hamilton starts sticking to them. Then listen to them piss and moan.

how it should be:

followed by:

nickc - Member

It's got nothing to do with nationality apart from the Old guy being British, and the others being Spanish or German

No, it hasn't.
So please stop telling me that I'm a xenophobe.

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no, and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man" (obeys orders) and he has a face like a puppy who's just done a whoopsie, whereas we're more than happy to have Vettel as our panto villain, and better still he's a dastardly Hun, he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage, or wear leather shorts under his overalls....

You can keep repeating it all you like, it doesn't make it true.

I could give you a list of my favourite drivers if you like.
Most of them are not British.
But there's no point, you've already made your mind up, despite others politely telling you that you're wrong.

This is how you secure a championshio:

nice clip. when schumi did it he was a c***, but senna gets movies made of him and everyone admires him - hmmmmm

Nah, everyone loves Schumi now after his underdog swansong

Interesting isn't it. A matter of charm? I could say it's because Senna got killed but people were more accepting of his less positive character traits than they were/are with Schumi even before that.

I wonder if Senna would have done what Vettel did? I can't help but think not though I reckon he'd have been haranguing the pit wall until they said yes, go through.

I wonder if Senna would have done what Vettel did?

I reckon that's a yes.

I think Senna would have done it, but done it differently.

1) His team mate would have known it was coming and wouldn’t have slowed up thus making it easier for him to be caught.

2) Senna wouldn’t have tried to wriggle out of it with a cringe worthy apology. He’d have said something along the lines of “So what? I beat him. Man up.”

If Vettel had always intended to go for it he should have said so rather than allow Webber to believe that his position was safe.

Bernie and the sponsors will be loving this. I bet the viewing figures are higher for the next race as a result.

thepurist - I can't see the vid - which one is it?

clubber - 'if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver... because we are competing, we are competing to win not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th'

That's not like for like though is it. Webber had been told to slow and that Vettel wouldn't be overtaking. It's hardly a 'proper' racing move.

I reckon that Senna would have either said that he'd not agree to a team order to hold station or he'd have ignored the order and then said something about always racing to win but either way at least being open about it.

I think Senna would have done it, but done it differently.

Senna would have walked away from this era of the sport altogether. It's not the same F1 that existed in Senna's era and it's not one Senna would have been a part of or been able to exist in.

No chance. It's still the pinnacle of motor sport so he'd have been racing but probably complaining loudly about the bits he didn't like.

FWIW, I think he'd have enjoyed some of the challenges of modern F1.

Could Webber have turned his car back to full power though? Surely he knew pretty quickly that Vettel was racing for position (and his defensive tactics showed in the preceding corners that he knew Vettel was trying to get past).

So, if he could have turned it up, why didn't he?

And if he did, then he was beaten fair and square.

It's a fair question and I don't think it's been answered but I can see that he might have been a bit caught out given that there was no reason to expect it.

It's a nonsense. Modern karting does not breed the type of racer that senna used to be. He simply would not have been part of modern F1.

clubber - Member
It's a fair question and I don't think it's been answered but I can see that he might have been a bit caught out given that there was no reason to expect it.

The battle went on for what, a lap and a half? If he was still caught out during the whole adventure then he deserved to lose.

Ah, I only saw the highlights and barely that so maybe missed that it went on so long!

The fact though as I explained earlier was that Vettel was faster because aside from anything else, he was on the faster tyre. I don't thing the issue is that really, more whether when the team says to do something and they've agreed it then they should do what they say - eg keeping your word. If the team had said to both, off you go, do what you want then fair enough. The team was VERY concerned that the tyres cold blow out if they raced (particularly if they flat spotted their tyres) so they had a pretty good reason to not want them to race.

I think they were both turned right up and going as hard as they could, but Webber's mentality had already reset to 'cruise' and was just taking that bit longer to tune back in to 100% race pace.

That and he simply isn't as good as Vettel.

I am not sure how I feel about it all though really - yes there should be team agreements and it is daft to challenge and potentially put a team mate out of the race, but at the same time we want to see the best racer win and it made for some great racing.

Serious question to those that think that Vettel was in the wrong - Would you have been happy watching that Grand Prix knowing that 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th had all been decided by the two front teams? Other than the fact that it would've made for the dullest 16 laps in history

Happy? Not really no but then I'd have preferred that all teams just run without team orders. This was a slightly unusual situation in recent times in that the teams were running in tandem. Team orders don't tend to work very well between teams as is usually the case up front...

My issue is simply that they agreed something beforehand and then Vettel just chose to ignore it when it suited him. That's not behaviour that I admire I'm afraid. If he'd refused beforehand to agree to 'multi 21' and would stick to it if the roles had been reversed then that'd be fine.

dullest 16 laps in history

Did you watch F1 in the 2000s? 😀

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no,

and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man"

I'd say that any favouritism towards Webber would be on account of his 'tell it how it is' character and the fact that many people feel he's been unfairly treated by RB at times. If you consider those national characteristics, then maybe you have a point 🙂

re: Senna

to be honest Modern F1 would be a different place, as a lot of the issues from Modern F1 came directly from his death, so if he had been around, it would be different.

I also believe that even if Senna had left the driving seat, he would still have been in F1 and perhaps steered it towards a different direction.
It was certainly interesting to see him mellow a little in the latter years of his driving career and work more pro-actively in driver safety (considering what he'd done to Prost and his more youthful attitude of go-for-broke regardless of cost...) and would certainly have been very interesting to see how he could have influenced the sport as an ex-driver. i wonder if he would have been where Todt is today?

As for Senna and the Team Order - he would not have been in that position because the entire Team would have been built around him and he would have been about 32 seconds ahead of Webber from the first few laps in the mixed conditions (yeah i remember DONNINGTON too, probably the greatest drive i ever saw) 🙂

Junky, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"

ever..at all?

i grew up hating prost and senna for making F1 predictable, with only Mansell and (sometimes) Piquet upsetting the cart! We are fortunate today of having drivers quite evenly matched (Lewis, Seb, Fernando, Button, Webber, Robsberg, Kimi, the list goes on). In part that is due to the regulations and the tyres. I am really enjoying this era of F1 and long may it continue.

As for the note earlier about Red bull being a bunch a **** and a one man show (Newey). Utter nonsense, Adrians car at Leyton House was a shocker, one of the McLarens never made it to a race track it was so bad...........

Junky, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"

ever..at all?

do you ever think that when you can no longer defend your view that doing ad home on me does not make you or your view look any better.
What shame you cannot admit the stupidity of your original statment and I feel sure your brave attempt to call me names when floundering will fool everyone.....why not go for a full house and play the Edinburgh defence for the racism claim?

"Adrians car at Leyton House was a shocker, one of the McLarens never made it to a race track it was so bad..........."

Mashiehood. Leyton house! This was in the 80's! 30 years ago! The poor sod can only have been in his 20's! How good were you at your job in your early career? And March were hardly a disaster. For a low budget team, their results were decent, in a time when there were 15 plus teams on the grid.

As for his time at McLaren, that was hardly awful either. World title in 98? Mika Hakkinen had success in Neweys cars, and they even made Coulthard competitive!

I think you've totally missed the point. Look at the Williams years alone. The fw14-19 were unbelievable. Watch any race from the 1993 season, the advances which were later made illegal were embarrassingly awesome.

Then we come onto Red Bull. A team of nobody's. Two average drivers. (Coulthard was at red bull before he retired remember!!, and he was always shite!) Then a couple of years later, 3 consecutive world titles.

No one guy has had a bigger influence on f1 car design. Credit where its due.

So there!

 

No one guy has had a bigger influence on f1 car design.

I was with you right up until you forgot about Colin Chapman

Colin Chapmans a damn fine call. Although his innovations were revolutionary, a lot of legendary drivers lost their lives in his radical cars.

landofgiants
newey is undoubtedly a great designer, an amazing aero designer but you need to remember a few other, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne, John Barnard, Patrick Head, Colin Chapman, Harvey Posthlwaite, Neil Oatley etc. were also great designers and have designed amazing cars, consistently.

The point im making is you also need a team to achieve greatness and the Red Bull team is a great team full of very talented people. i am a big fan, but im also a fan of Williams and Ferrari.

I can go with that. I just think that in a time when the margins between the teams is so fine. For that team to stand above many seasoned teams, that man is the deciding factor.

Id like to see what he could do at a Marussia or a Caterham!

[img] [/img]

😀

That's a no then...

Really, lighten up chap. I haven't attacked you, If I wanted to make a [i]serious[/i] point d'you really think comparing some-ones face to a puppy who's done a whoopies is the way I'd do it?

do try to stop filtering other peoples posts and responses through your own viewpoint, other people think and act differently and have different motivations. OK?

Really, lighten up chap.

Perhaps retract your pointless and defamatory statement, then he might.

Zokes, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"

ever..at all?

😉

To you guys who cry " real " racing is lost , do you agree that what we want is One set of tyres, One tank of petrol and less laps will give us the best solution?