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I enjoyed that race and not a Red bull in site. Had got bored watching this year with RB and Maxs domination. More of this please.
Would Hamilton have got it done if Russell wasn't in front of him? He was clearly quicker and had taken nearly 5secs out of Russell before they caught Charles after the pitstop.
Wouldn’t be F1 if they did that.
Wouldn't be dominated by the team with the biggest sandwich budget I think you mean
If only F1 did what touring cars used to do and put more weight in the winning cars to offset the performance to get some equality.
Ideas like that get proposed all the time, nobody in F1 wants that, it won't happen. The cost cap and limits on aero testing are intended to have a similar effect, but in a less contrived way. Over a period of a decade or so, the cost cap should cause the richer teams to fall back to the pack because they won't be able to keep pouring hundreds of millions into facilities and sustaining huge staff levels. The teams that finish higher in the standings have less wind-tunnel time and computer time for aero development so the back-marker teams should be able to develop their cars more, as long as they use their resources sensibly. It'll take them a few seasons to catch the front-runners, but it's no longer the impossible task it used to be when spending was unrestricted.
As dislikeable as I find Horner, Verstappen, and Marko, you have to respect Adrian Newey for really doing a fantastic job with the new regulations. The other teams just dropped the ball. Ballasting the Red Bulls to artificially boost the other teams would just turn it into a lottery and nobody wants that.
just turn it into a lottery and nobody wants that.
Surely everyone wants that, imaging tuning in and not knowing who was going to win? Up until Singapore everyone knew the result before they unpacked the cars from the trailers
That was the first race this season that I genuinely enjoyed! So exciting, surprising for a Singapore race which can be very processional
Plenty of spec racing series with equal machinery if that's what you want, but F1 has always been as much about the teams of engineers competing to build the best car as it is about the drivers competing to get the most out of their cars on a Sunday.
Wouldn’t be dominated by the team with the biggest sandwich budget I think you mean
Always has been - there haven't been many periods when one team didn't dominate.
And don't forget Toyota had the biggest sandwich budget going when they were in F1 - didn't buy them success.
We'll see this weekend if the domination was done by fair or foul means. Suzuka is about as proper as F1 circuits get. Twisty bits, swoopy bits, long straight, heavy braking points. If Red Bull win by 30 seconds we'll know Singapore was just a balls-up for them.
If they are pegged back again, well... that fan will be working overtime!! 💩 💩 🤣 🤣
just turn it into a lottery and nobody wants that.
Surely everyone wants that
If that's what you want, just get some dice and play snakes and ladders with your friends.
Having some uncertainty in sports results is great, I remember Japan's victory over Ireland at the last Rugby World Cup as the best game I can recall watching, but handicapping the top teams isn't the way to do it. The problem this year is that Red Bull have designed an amazing car, Verstappen has been driving superbly and intelligently, and Red Bull strategy has been top notch. Making it easier for back-marker teams to catch the leaders is fine, but handicapping Red Bull for doing a good job is not what F1 is about.
If that’s what you want, just get some dice and play snakes and ladders with your friends.
What? You'd rather watch a sport where 99% of the time you know who the winner is before the Red light goes out? Better get a seat in the paint section of B&Q and watch the tins dry
Great race Sainz race craft at the end letting Norris have drs was genius.
It will be interesting next weekend to see how RB do and if their drop in performance when the rules were changed was coincidence or causation
There's no doubting that Sunday's GP was the most exciting so far this year, Four cars that you could throw a blanket over , 3 different teams, different strategies and tyres, and some pretty good (and poor) driving all in the last last 10 laps...It was edge of the seat stuff. BUT: it isn't Red Bull's job to create that sort of racing, and it's not their fault that it hasn't happened. If you asked them; none of the other teams want that either, they, like RB want to prance off into the distance never to be seen again, none of the teams want their last laps to look like that, least of all, becasue there's a chance the drivers will crash (see Russell, and nearly Norris) or blow up trying to catch up. (see Ocon).
Blaming RB for the lack of racing and penalising them is the wrong answer, and if anything Sunday shows this, it's the fault of all the other teams for just not being good enough to compete.
handicapping [the leading team] for doing a good job is not what F1 is about
Rubbish!
Double diffuser
6 wheeler
Fan car
Etc
Etc...
You’d rather watch a sport where 99% of the time you know who the winner is before the Red light goes out? Better get a seat in the paint section of B&Q and watch the tins dry
F1 has always been like that. When I first started following, McLaren-Honda were dominant. Then Williams. Then Ferrari. Then Red Bull. Then Merc. Now Red Bull again. Penalizing the fastest car is not the way to fix things and none of the teams would support it so it's never going to happen.
The non-Red Bull teams have now realized that they went in the wrong direction with their aero designs and will all follow Red Bull's direction next year. My money is on next year being much more competitive at the front now that they understand what they need to improve. I suspect Red Bull will still win the championship but I doubt that they will dominate the way they did this year.
chrismac
Great race Sainz race craft at the end letting Norris have drs was genius.
It was very funny when the engineer was calling out the gap to Sainz & when he warned him it had dropped to 0.8, Sainz replied that he was doing it on purpose to give Norris DRS.
Lightbulb moment for the engineer.
Yeah, I get where you're coming from @Rich_s, but those innovations were extreme in comparison to the teams around them, and so singular. Despite being often technically brilliant, they often just weren't in the spirit of the thing, they took the regs and threw them out the window and did their own thing .
Whereas RB have taken the regs and applied their unique brilliance to them without trying to work around them, just applied some critical thinking and outgunned everyone around them just by being a bit cleverer.
Rubbish!
Double diffuser
6 wheeler
Fan car
Etc
Etc…
Outlawing technical developments is fine - the same rules apply to everyone. Making the champion leader carry ballast to slow him down is not how F1 works and none of the other teams will support it so it won't happen.
Rubbish!
Double diffuser
6 wheeler
Fan car
Etc
Etc…
None are the same as win related ballast being added. Even a spec series like Indycar doesn't have it.
The best run teams always win anyway.
WEC has balance of performance rules built in. But that's as much to do with balancing the performance of the cars as they run to slightly different rules depending on their drivetrain...
https://www.fiawec.com/en/equivalence-systems-performance-technologie/76
he was doing it on purpose to give Norris DRS.
This was absolute genius, at that point I was just rooting for Carlos to win. To be able to think like that just as the race was as tense as it was...Brilliant
Sainz drove an amazing race, he knew he didn't have the quickest car at the end but had enough tactical nous to manage the traffic behind him brilliantly. Really impressive racecraft.
Marina Bay is a really unique circuit, its a weird combination of high deg but low grip and with a real mix of high and low speed sections
Really good explanation of Red Bull's woes from The Race
Rubbish!
Double diffuser
6 wheeler
Fan car
Yes there are many cases in F1 history where clever people spot a loophole in the rules and exploit it until either the loophole is closed or everyone adopts it. That is absolutely not the same as just penalising a team for doing a better job (apparently within the rules) than its competitors.
It was very funny when the engineer was calling out the gap to Sainz & when he warned him it had dropped to 0.8, Sainz replied that he was doing it on purpose to give Norris DRS.
Lightbulb moment for the engineer
I know, right! Starting to feel like Sainz is the sharpest tool in the Ferrari box
Would Hamilton have got it done if Russell wasn’t in front of him?
He'd have probably over taken Norris off-track and had to give it back (or not had to, causing a post-race debacle) if the rest of the race was anything to go by.
They def need more F1 races like that though!
I know, right! Starting to feel like Sainz is the sharpest tool in the Ferrari box
Obviously it’s easy to say this now, but I thought that was the case from the start. He’s always been a canny racer, he just needed the machinery to be able to race at the front, and the peace of mind within the team not to get too agitated and desperate (as has been the case when he’s had to endure some of Ferrari’s more bizarre strategic decisions). He’s long seemed the more complete racer than Leclerc: smarter with strategy, less error-prone, less damagingly self-critical. In all honesty I was expecting him to emerge as their de facto number 1 fairly early on. Now that he’s outqualifying Leclerc he can call the shots instead of being asked to hang back: it seems Ferrari still don’t have anyone on the pit wall that can outperform Sainz on strategy, and this week it was Leclerc who got the fuzzy end of the lollipop with (as I recall) some curious pitstop timing.
I laughed out loud during Fred Vassuer's interview on C4 after the race.
DC asked him if having two strong drivers so closely matched would cause the team problems.
Fred responded "Not at all, not at all, I'd rather have two good ones than two shit ones" 🙂
I laughed out loud during Fred Vassuer’s interview on C4 after the race.
Same after quali when dc asked something along the lines of "how can you turn pole into a win?" and Fred said "we can do that by keeping all the other cars behind us". I wonder whether he'd change to boring-PR-soundbyte-team-principal mode if Ferrari can deliver a proper championship challenge.
Rumour mill saying Ricciardo/Yuki at 'Adidas F1' - Liam Lawson to Williams...
Lawson and Albon would be an amazing driver pairing.
Any trivia experts here? Alpha Tauri have 4 drivers listed in the WDC - Tsunoda, DeVries, Ricciardo and Lawson - when was the last time a team got through so many drivers in a season?
thepuristFull Member
Any trivia experts here? Alpha Tauri have 4 drivers listed in the WDC – Tsunoda, DeVries, Ricciardo and Lawson – when was the last time a team got through so many drivers in a season?
I don’t know about lost recent, but the Jordan sprang to mind. 5 drivers in a season!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_191
“Any trivia experts here? Alpha Tauri have 4 drivers listed in the WDC – Tsunoda, DeVries, Ricciardo and Lawson – when was the last time a team got through so many drivers in a season?”
Looks like it was HRT Cosworth in 2010 (Chandhok, Senna, Yamamoto & Klien).
Any trivia experts here? Alpha Tauri have 4 drivers listed in the WDC – Tsunoda, DeVries, Ricciardo and Lawson – when was the last time a team got through so many drivers in a season?
In 1994, Williams had four drivers; Senna, Hill, Coulthard, and Mansell. Senna was killed and replaced by Mansell and Coulthard. Senna and Mansell were both past champions, but neither won a race. Hill won races, but didn't win the championship, he didn't win the championship until two years later. Aside from that, when was the last time that a team had three world champions drive for it in one year?
In 1994, Williams had four drivers; Senna, Hill, Coulthard, and Mansell. Senna was killed and replaced by Mansell and Coulthard. Senna and Mansell were both past champions, but neither won a race. Hill won races, but didn’t win the championship, he didn’t win the championship until two years later. Aside from that, when was the last time that a team had three world champions drive for it in one year?
Pretty sure Nige won the season ender in Adelaide in 94
when was the last time a team got through so many drivers in a season?”
I think Prost had a load of drivers one year in the early noughties. something like 5 maybe? in 2000 or 2001. Think some came with sponsorship money though.
Edit
And yet I don't get invited to parties...
thols2
Perez not looking so thrilled.
Who's Karen Horner hugging? I can't make it out. Ricciardo? It's definitely not Geri.
Back to normal for this weekend, then? Red Bull half a lap up the road & everyone else fighting over the scraps?
I think it's Liam Lawson. yep, reckon so.
It's Sebastian Vettel, Liam Lawson is in the background
nickc
I think it’s Liam Lawson. yep, reckon so.
Isn't Liam Lawson the bloke peeking out from behind the hug action looking left towards Perez?
The huggee doesn't have Lawson's slick hairdo.
shermer75
Free Member
It’s Sebastian Vettel
Ah. He's had a haircut, then. I didn't recognise him without one of those footballer hairbands in 🙂
Yuki looks like someone who's just got a Pit-Pass as is just very pleased to be there! 🙂
It’s Sebastian Vettel, Liam Lawson is in the background
Ah cool. Cheers 👍
Normal service resumed
You mean Tsunoda getting beaten by a rookie in the same car?
Looks like Ferrari and McLaren will be very close, Merc looking lacklustre. Albon going surprisingly well again.
What a shame
Japanese Grand Prix: Max Verstappen dominates Friday practice - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66886503
Albon going surprisingly well again
FTFY.
I've stopped being surprised, last year was surprising, now we just expect it of him
I’ve stopped being surprised, last year was surprising, now we just expect it of him
The gap between him and Logan Sargeant is just mental. He seems like such a nice guy too, it's great having him in F1
Albon is absolute class. Respectful, humble, determined and super talented. Same school as Lando, Oscar and Sainz for me. There's some thoroughly good guys in F1 just now, Lewis's legacy I reckon, he showed you don't need to be an absolute arse to do well.
There’s some thoroughly good guys in F1 just now, Lewis’s legacy I reckon, he showed you don’t need to be an absolute arse to do well.
You could be right! He's been quite the embassador for the sport
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">I’ve stopped being surprised, last year was surprising, now we just expect it of him</span>
Yep. I'm hugely pleased that Albon got a second chance at F1. These days he's confident and is getting some eye-opening results from that Williams. Some of the silly season gossip a couple of weeks back hinted that contract talks were happening between Albon and Ferrari, TBH that's something I'd like to see.
Ricciardo and Tsunoda confirmed for next year. Lawson to Williams for a year is the obvious thing, I'm guessing that Red Bull don't want a Piastri type debacle if they don't find him a race seat.
Sargeant bins it again. P45 must be on it's way now....
Don’t think I’ll be setting my alarm clock for tomorrow to watch another Max walkover.
Verstappen is 6/10ths above the next best car and almost a second clear of his team mate. Goodness. Mercedes are back to being almost a second behind.
Mercedes seem to need some fundamental changes, they seem pretty lost with the car, just as they were last season. Toto was banging on about the 23 car been vastly faster than the 22 car, then it was the upgrades were delivering huge gains. In reality they are in exactly the same spot as they were last season, struggling and not understanding the car.
Toto was banging on about the 23 car been vastly faster than the 22 car, then it was the upgrades were delivering huge gains. In reality they are in exactly the same spot as they were last season, struggling and not understanding the car.
Ferrari and Merc both stumbled into the same trap - their 2023 cars were much improved on their 2022 cars but they didn't realize how big of a gain Red Bull would make. In the wind tunnel, the Merc apparently shows really good downforce numbers but they can't access that on most circuits because they have to raise the ride height. When the Merc can run in it's optimum setup window, it performs quite well, the problem is that they can't do that across the full range of circuits.
Having seen the huge gains that Aston Martin and McLaren made by following the Red Bull aero concept, Ferrari and Merc both realized earlier in the season that they needed to start from scratch next year. They have updated their cars as best they can this year, but the basic architecture limits what they can achieve without a clean-sheet design. I think they have progressed from last year and now they do understand the problems and likely solutions, it's just that they have to wait until next year to address the fundamental limitations because of the cost cap and wind tunnel restrictions.
I suspect that Red Bull will still be the class of the field at the beginning of next year but I think it's highly likely that things will be much closer - the odds are that at least one of Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, and Aston Martin will make a major leap forward.
Don’t think I’ll be setting my alarm clock for tomorrow to watch another Max walkover.
I came to the same conclusion after qualifying.
Tyres seem to be a significant issue. Last week RB couldn’t get temperature and grip this week, everyone else is overheating and degrading the tyres despite the very hardest compounds being allocated by Pirelli. So this week it seems RB are overly dominant due to their return and NOT overheating the tyres and everyone else’s decline AND overheating. The race will likely be dire unless it rains.
So, it seems the flexi-wing techincal directive has finally found out Red Bull .
<sarcasm>So, it seems the flexi-wing techincal directive has finally found out Red Bull .</sarcasm>
FTFY
Lewis may be regretting signing that new contract. McLaren are whupping their arse with a customer engine.
No point dragging out a failed car concept if the Red Bull approach is clearly better.
Lewis may be regretting signing that new contract. McLaren are whupping their arse with a customer engine.
Lewis is third in the drivers' championship, Lando is eighth. Mercedes is second in the championship, McLaren is fifth. Merc will have a completely new car next year. The only better option for Lewis would be a Red Bull seat but that's never going to happen.
<span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">Ferrari and Merc both stumbled into the same trap – their 2023 cars were much improved on their 2022 cars but they didn’t realize how big of a gain Red Bull would make. In the wind tunnel, the Merc apparently shows really good downforce numbers but they can’t access that on most circuits because they have to raise the ride height. When the Merc can run in it’s optimum setup window, it performs quite well, the problem is that they can’t do that across the full range of circuits.</span>
Much improved? This years Mercedes is 3 tenths of a second faster than last years was in qualifying for their Japanese GP, Ferrari are 2 tenth's slower.
Merc are showing a clear lack of understanding of ground effects, they have been clutching at straws for 18 months. I think to an extent Toto is getting shown up as he somewhat lucked in to the Merc position taking over from Brawn and all the people Ross had put into place behind him. Now the going is tough he seems to be a bit out of his depth.
Trouble is Toto owns 33% of the team - he’s going nowhere.
Anyway - Lewis is off to bang his fist on some tables!… 🤣
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66900355
Ignore Max tomorrow, as the race for second tomorrow will be great between the rest of them.
Looking forward to seeing what Piastri is capable of now he has the experience and the same car as Lando.
Said I wouldn’t but here I am up at 6am - hard to break decades of F1 habit! 🤣🤣
🤣🤣
Some awesome driving standards today - best drivers in the world!! 🤣
WTF is it with Russell - wind ‘yer neck in a bit and work for the team.
Stroll, Bottas, Perez, Sargeant - how have these 4 still got seats for 2024?
(I know Logan isn’t confirmed yet)
Shades of Lewis/Nico now between Lewis and Russell.
Just seen this quote on Twitter…
“Russell has the ego of Michael Schumacher but with the ability of Ralf!” 😀
Will we see Riccardo back this season or will Alpha Tauri stick with Lawson?
Another constructors title for Red Bull.
I was hoping Lawson could be in a Williams for next year and hopefully the rest of this season, but apparently Red Bull won’t loan him out.
Will we see Riccardo back this season or will Alpha Tauri stick with Lawson?
US GP at earliest for Ricciardo according to latest reports.
Logan needs to go - at the very least he's costing Williams millions in repairs. That was a full car rebuild from yesterdays crash.
but apparently Red Bull won’t loan him out.
I would be amazed if there wasn’t a clause in his contract that allows him to leave if offered a race seat. OTOH RBs young driver development/deployment hasn’t gone to plan for a fair few years now, so you would think they wouldn’t be daft enough to lose another one . . . maybe
the-muffin-man
Full Member
Shades of Lewis/Nico now between Lewis and Russell.Just seen this quote on Twitter…
“Russell has the ego of Michael Schumacher but with the ability of Ralf!” 😀
Lol funny quote but that's just it, I think he's pretty close to Hamilton in terms of ability. That's where the tension is coming from.
And I'm here for the drama!
(same with piastri/Norris!)
I really want red bull to sack Perez and stick lawson in his seat.
I hope the stewards will take any opportunity they get to give Perez a meaningful penalty next race - unretiring the car just to serve a penalty and retire it again shows another flaw in the current system.