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They’ve not really addressed downforce, they’ve only addressed the turbulent air issue. The problem is you can’t unlearn all the downforce know-how gained over the years.
Weight and size is the thing for me now, they just look cumbersome.
Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster?
The same reason any business can claim tax rebates for R&D that improves their product. Randomly, R&D has spin-off benefits that benefit society. How much fuel has been saved in road cars, over the years, because F1 drove the development of more efficient engines? I don't know, but I expect it's significant. Probably some the carbon fibre tech that's used in bikes was developed in F1.
I remember when they tried to make “better racing” in the late 90s and I was speaking to my friends about it and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip
It was ever thus.
From the Racefans article:
Red Bull are believed to have expected a rebate from HMRC, but this did not materialise, adding the $1.4 million to the budget for the year.
So....is this a failure of the RB accounting dept to apply for the rebate early enough (or chase up HMRC timeously)? And the had to ask Dieter to pony up the difference last year?
Or have RB been selected for a random audit by HMRC and they are withholding this amount (which may yet get paid and screw up the following year's budget?)
Presumably other UK teams would be eligible for similar rebates, yet they haven't fallen foul of this??
(I am not an accountant!)
And yes, @configuration, this subject is probably more interesting than what happens on the track 😃
the-muffin-man
They’ve not really addressed downforce, they’ve only addressed the turbulent air issue. The problem is you can’t unlearn all the downforce know-how gained over the years.
Can someone who understands aero more than me (i.e. anyone) explain why they cannot put a limit on downforce, rather than adding contrived regulations around wings, dirty air, DRS, etc.?
Cars currently have a minimum weight limit of 798kg. Is it not possible to mount a weighbridge in a wind tunnel and say, for example, that the weight (not mass) @200kph cannot exceed 1000kg? If this is technically possible, then it would very effectively limit the downforce available. The static weight minimum would have to be retained, obviously.
This would have lots of benefits. The aerodynamicists would still be in demand, but this time it would be to reduce drag for a given downforce, striving for higher straight line speeds. And as cornering speeds would be lower (less downforce) the braking distances would be increased, leading to more overtaking opportunities, and a greater reward for drivers' craft. And F1 could still be promoted as the pinnacle of automotive envelope-pushing as drag is far more relevant in the real world than downforce. Higher top speeds give greater willy-waggling credentials, and as anyone who's followed Formula F will testify, the racing will be way more fun.
This is a massive over-simplification and I'm sure there's lots of technical challenges, but surely nothing the engineering might of F1 couldn't overcome if it wanted to?
TL:DR - Low drag = clean air and longer braking zones = more overtaking and closer racing. Time to stop fannying around with the causes of drag and just deal with the actual issue.
Randomly, R&D has spin-off benefits that benefit society. How much fuel has been saved in road cars, over the years, because F1 drove the development of more efficient engines? I don’t know, but I expect it’s significant. Probably some the carbon fibre tech that’s used in bikes was developed in F1.
Providing entertainment is a benefit to society. The technology benefits of motor racing are massively exaggerated, little of the technology is relevant to road cars. I think you'll find most of the technological advances come from aerospace developments and are then adopted by F1. The main research focus of F1 is on aerodynamics, but that has no relevance to road cars.
Can someone who understands aero more than me (i.e. anyone) explain why they cannot put a limit on downforce, rather than adding contrived regulations around wings, dirty air, DRS, etc.?
It would be just as contrived. F1 cars don't run a static amount of downforce, it's adjusted for each circuit. At fast circuits, they use skinny wings for high top speed, at slow circuits, they use huge wings for maximum downforce. Downforce increases by speed, so you'd need to specify the speed (and ride height, tyre pressures, etc.) that the target downforce was generated at. Aero development would then focus on the drag reduction side of the downforce/drag equation - teams would aim for the target downforce, but at the lowest drag level. The most efficient (i.e. lowest drag) car would then have a higher top speed and greater downforce at the end of straights, so it would be able to brake later and would generate more heat in the tyres for qualifying warm-up laps.
I think it would be much simpler to just limit front and wings to a single element and have two or three regulated profiles (i.e. a low-drag, a high-downforce, and a medium downforce profile). Problem is, teams don't want to limit downforce so it'll never happen.
and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip
Teams don't want it. Won't happen.
edit: Overtaking might be exciting for spectators, but the teams want to build a fast car that fires off into the distance and is never seen again.
F1 fans seem to have become football fans in the last few years.
How long before we have organised gangs fighting in pubs outside circuits?
How long before we have organised gangs fighting in pubs outside circuits?
We already have that with the current Red Bull supporters.
RIP Dietrich Materschitz (as weirdly predicted up thread...).
It's being reported that the FIA and RB have agreed a punishment but the announcement is delayed "out of respect"
What the hell was that rendition of the national anthem😂
…murdered it - straight to death row!! 🤣💀
No fly past? You can normally tell how much Americans value an event by the cost of the firepower that they chuck over at the start!
I think Max is driving this one one handed with a Big Gulp in the other hand! 😀🧋
Dirty move from Stroll.
Not a good start to next years team relationship!
Was just going to say Stroll is a ****ing liability. Can they have their licence revoked? Because he is a prime candidate.
Best wheelie I've seen for a while.
Amazing that Alonso can carry on after that.
He did have a bit of a shaky voice.
It was very restrained from Alonso on the radio - probably reigned his real emotions in because it was his new bosses son.
Aaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa!!!
Come on Lewis!
Mediums for Max? Could be on the limit at the end.
I find it really difficult to like such a mardy bastard.
COTA always gives us a race!
Lewis is going to be 3rd
Great race so far!! Come on Lewis!
Another nightmare race for Danny Ric. ☹️
Why did they not fit the mediums on LH 44? Maybe deg issues but lower fuel towards the end might have kept Ver at bay. Super hero drive by alonso.. shame he didnt get any points due to Hass protest.. I guess they want payback for all those pitstops for dodgy wing issues
I think that they (Mercedes) were saying that the car was better on the Harder tyres.
Why did they not fit the mediums on LH 44? Maybe deg issues but lower fuel towards the end might have kept Ver at bay.
Probably cost more & they'd spent the money on sandwiches
I wondered that. I assumed they were worried about deg, given that in the first stint everyone was pitting after 12-15 laps, and they had 20 to go when they made the final stop. RB had nothing to lose so went medium.
Good race. Hamilton benefitting greatly fro0m penalties to other drivers, but still a good drive. Max showing why he's WC. 😎 I didn't think he'd be able to rescue it after the pit stop error, but Max is Max. Equalled the record for wins in a season, every chance he can surpass even that now. What a driver. As for the others; Vettel and Alonso showing why they were WCs. Alonso finishing 7th after that crash was nothing short of incredible. He's still one of the veery best in F1, shame he just hasn't had cars to match his talent for much of his career. And F1 will be poorer without Vettel. I used to feel sorry for Mark Webber; imagine your team mate being so much better than you, all the time. It will be interesting to see if George Russell will be content to be Hamilton's no 2, or whether he'll emerge as the faster driver. Definitely got talent. Shame for Sainz, but I don't think many people believed he would have won anyway, let's be honest. LeClerc must just be wishing this season is over, and he can crack on next year. Ferrari need to sort themselves out and support him properly, they've let him down so many times this year. Poor bloke.
Another nightmare race for Danny Ric.
It could have been worse, at least he finished ahead of Latifi.
Is Hamilton lining up a job as a marshall? If so, I think he failed his audition
I had to lol when Hamilton, having whinged about Max leaving the track, then got warned for exactly the same thing. 🤣 That was funny. 'But sir, he did something naughty!' No-one likes a grass... 🤫
I get the feeling you won't be asking Santa for a Lewis Hamilton cap this Crimbo! 🤣🤣
I had to lol when Hamilton, having whinged about Max leaving the track, then got warned for exactly the same thing. 🤣 That was funny. ‘But sir, he did something naughty!’ No-one likes a grass
When i heard that over the radio i guessed that Max was doing it to widen the gap, So i can understand why Hamilton complained, then I guess Hamilton decided to do the same following Max where he went off track to try and keep up with Max knowing that if Max got a penalty Hamilton should be ok as he would off been off track less times than Max
Track limits are a joke, some drivers went off 4 times and still didnt get penalized, personally i think it should be 2 warnings then on the 3rd time you recieve a 5 sec penalty
Lewis just knew his only chance of grabbing the win was if Max got a 5 second penalty - just playing the game.
Lol! Ok then. 🤣
When i heard that over the radio i guessed that Max was doing it to widen the gap, So i can understand why Hamilton complained, then I guess Hamilton decided to do the same following Max where he went off track to try and keep up with Max knowing that if Max got a penalty Hamilton should be ok as he would off been off track less times than Max
Take the blinkers off. They were all at it, repeatedly, throughout the race.
configuration
I didn’t think he’d be able to rescue it after the pit stop error, but the RB18 is the RB18.
FTFY.
Kidding, but only a little.
I'd love to know what the secret sauce is in that car. Simultaneously excellent at switching the tyres on quickly and yet also having the least deg on the grid.
Max's mediums looked better at the end than Hamilton's hards, and Max had been lapping quicker and had run in the dirty air of and battled Chucky Lay-clare and Lewis.
It's a masterpiece.
I’d love to know what the secret sauce is
Adrian Newey...
(Plus, Red Bull had more money to spend than anyone else...😉)
Also how much of a prat did Max sound with his sarcastic "beautiful" remark after that wheel gun failure.
His pit crew been pretty much perfect all year, with the fastest stops on the grid.
He could have said "argh man what happened?" but nope, straight in with a sarcastic comment instead.
You think Hamilton would have been giving kind comments, Max was annoyed, same as his pit crew, team and everyone involved for Red Bull, honestly it's funny reading the stuff on here at times, Hamilton and McLaren being robbed, Max and Red Bull the supervillains 😂
Max and Red Bull the supervillains
Well they do have an arrogant teenager, an endlessly moaning sanctemoneous prick and a spice girl all in one team.
Well they do have an arrogant teenager, an endlessly moaning sanctemoneous prick and a spice girl all in one team.
+1
IMO MV has dramatically improved as a driver over the last 14 or so months (ie less likely to run someone off the road) BUT if RB get rid of Horner, I'd like them a hell of a lot more!
Well they do have an arrogant teenager, an endlessly moaning sanctemoneous prick and a spice girl all in one team.
Says the mature grown up...
Has he? Or is his car so much faster than the rest now that he doesn't feel the need to be so aggressive? It was around this time last year that he was brake testing Hamilton and forcing people off the circuit.
Max is a great driver no doubt. It's just a shame the cost cap overspend will forever be a shadow on these two championships for the rest of F1 history
argee
Full MemberYou think Hamilton would have been giving kind comments, Max was annoyed, same as his pit crew, team and everyone involved for Red Bull, honestly it’s funny reading the stuff on here at times, Hamilton and McLaren being robbed, Max and Red Bull the supervillains 😂
Yeah I think Hamilton would have said "guys what happened?!"
For me it was the same as when his DRS broke and he started shouting about it, stroppy teenager behaviour.
I really dislike what F1 and the fans are becoming - it's more and more tribal and if you like Max you hate Lewis, or vice versa. It wasn't like this before! Max has really excelled this year and matured, but he hasn't had much competition! We should be discussing how the FIA have screwed up Alonso's amazing recovery drive with ridiculous penalties!
Lewis is no saint on the team radio - he tends to rant about specific things like tyres & strategy rather than just venting his reaction, which is what Max tends to do. Bear in mind that we only tend to hear team radio broadcast when a driver has had some sort of incident or when they're moaning about something - I think there are some youtube channels that grab the whole race for each driver, but I've not got that much time
And +1 to bigdaddy - Max has driven the wheels off that RB this year, the whole team has just done a better job than the competition from Adrian Newey to the pit crew to the strategy to the caterers (though maybe they need to make some cuts there 😀 )
Anyhow, Aston Martin are close to an agreement for their procedural breach but I expect that'll be a williams style fine and won't provide any clues about how the FIA will handle RedBull.
I really dislike what F1 and the fans are becoming – it’s more and more tribal and if you like Max you hate Lewis, or vice versa
This is why I generally avoid this thread. This thread is pretty placid though compared to F1 Twitter which is a vast cesspool of hate from every angle.
We should be discussing how the FIA have screwed up Alonso’s amazing recovery drive with ridiculous penalties!
It was Haas proving a point.
They've been pulled up 3 times for a simple flapping wing endplate. So were a bit surprised when a car with a lot of crash damage was allowed to run freely.
I really dislike what F1 and the fans are becoming – it’s more and more tribal and if you like Max you hate Lewis, or vice versa.
Me too. It's become toxic. Even in this thread, we've polarised views with one apparent Troll posting point after point trying to hammer his nail into concrete. Just fkcu off. Who cares.
Haas also protested Perez running with a loose end plate, when IIRC Perez was on team radio (see above) complaining about others doing that only a couple of weeks ago.
I think it's down to the FIA starting to enforce all of the rules as they are written, same as the underwear and jewellery rules that have been in the text but never enforced. Seems that's what it takes for the teams to pay attention and debate whether it's a good rule or not, so if the Haas/Alpine tiff leads to a clarification or re-drafting of that rule then so be it. Same as rules for partial races which were applied correctly by the FIA even though they didn't give the expected result.
configuration
Free Member
Fuming Lewis Hamilton yells ‘I told you’ at Mercedes team as wrong call sees Max Verstappen regain Formula 1 championship lead, as Valtteri Bottas wins Turkish Grand Prix
So three instances where the team actually did cock up. How's that relevant to the point which is Max was being a sarcastic little twart even though nobody had actually made a mistake?
edit- let's forget this it's pointless
Me too. It’s become toxic. Even in this thread, we’ve polarised views with one apparent Troll posting point after point trying to hammer his nail into concrete. Just fkcu off. Who cares.
Me too, I can happily admit I’m a Hamilton fan - which being a mixed race family comes a lot from what he represents not just his driving ability - but I can appreciate how good Verstappen is - and others - yet I don’t have to like his or Horner's personality. I liked Mansell and many didn’t, I didn’t like Schumacher senior, or Prost. We all have our like and dislikes but for me it’s certainly not “hate”.
Let’s remember most of the drivers are great drivers, just with different equipment in a sport of very fine margins.
We all have our like and dislikes but for me it’s certainly not “hate”.
So why the childish abuse of Verstappen, RB, Christian Horner etc?
So three instances where the team actually did cock up. How’s that relevant to the point which is Max was being a sarcastic little twart even though nobody had actually made a mistake?
Can you really not see just how stupid that looks?
edit- let’s forget this it’s pointless
Wasn't there a sort of agreement earlier in this thread, that such behaviour is really quite silly anyway?
Imagine if last year's result was reverse; imagine if it had been Hamilton needing to beat Max, and had benefitted form the stewards error. Do you really think people on here would be saying 'oh that's so unfair Max deserved the WC, Lewis and Mercedes and Toto Wolf are all mean and nasty wah wah wah'?
No. Of course they wouldn't. They'd instead be going on about how Lewis won on the track, could only race according to what instructions he'd been given, etc etc etc. There's nothing wrong with tribalism and partisanship, but the toxicity on this thread has almost all been from one direction. And it's not Harry Styles' fault either. So have a word with yourselves. Perhaps learn a bit of self awareness too. So the rest of us can enjoy a thread about F1 without all this constant whining and sniping and utterly blinkered nonsense. As for liking people or not; why not concentrate on the sport, rather than fixating on imagined aspects of someone's personality, based on your own prejudices about people you've never met?
We should be discussing how the FIA have screwed up Alonso’s amazing recovery drive with ridiculous penalties!
We should. It seems grossly unfair for Alonso, but Haas do perhaps have a point. I think they should have deducted constructors points, rather than penalising a driver for actually doing what he's paid for and providing great entertainment.
Edit doublepost.
Wasn’t there a sort of agreement earlier in this thread, that such behaviour is really quite silly anyway?
Yes.
Wasn’t there a sort of agreement earlier in this thread, that such behaviour is really quite silly anyway?
I think the above was only a procedural breach of this agreement. They've probably had too much coffee 🤣
Lol! Or perhaps a popular brand of energy drink?
Irony: the one here doing the most complaining is the one doing the most stoking.
So if we're now saying that MV is a great driver and probably the best out there at the moment, does this mean that everyone agrees that LH was the best whilst he was winning his 7 WDC's and it actually has nothing to do with the cars?....
Take the blinkers off. They were all at it, repeatedly, throughout the race.
No blinkers involved! I watch the C4 highlights so I don't see everything that happens within the race and I only watch the race, i watch nothing before or after the race
I also said the following which you didn't quote
Track limits are a joke, some drivers went off 4 times and still didn't get penalized, personally I think it should be 2 warnings then on the 3rd time you receive a 5 sec penalty
That info again came from the C4 highlights during the race
Not sure why people feel the need to slag off drivers, I'm no Max fan (prefer Lewis, Sainz, Lando and George) but I apricate that he is a very talented driver and like Hamilton and other drivers he gets annoyed when things go wrong and says things in the heat of the moment just like normal people do when things go wrong
It's always to do with the cars.
The best drivers always end up in the best cars though. 🙂
Not sure why people feel the need to slag off drivers
Because they don't like it when their views aren't shared by everyone. It's playground stuff really.
Both Max and Lewis are by any measure; amazing at what they do, I have no doubt that Lewis has set the milestone by which every driver from now will be measured - in the same way the Fangio was before Senna and Prost, Schumacher after that, and Vettel, and so on. I have no doubt that if RB continues to build winnable cars, Max will win in them, perhaps in time, he'll challenge the other greats in numbers of wins and championships. He certainly seems to be winning for fun currently.
I think we all want good racing between drivers and cars that on any Sunday could win. Personally I groan when pit stops go badly for any of the drivers, I cheer at all the overtakes,and feel bad for drivers who get punted off, or crash.
The radio broadcasts are nothing, these guys are under tremendous pressure, they all says things in the heat of the moment. I'd rather they behave like humans than robots.
It’s always to do with the cars.
The best drivers always end up in the best cars though. 🙂
this is exactly why you cant really say A is better than B unless they are in the same team
Both Max and Lewis are by any measure; amazing at what they do, I have no doubt that Lewis has set the milestone by which every driver from now will be measured – in the same way the Fangio was before Senna and Prost, Schumacher after that, and Vettel, and so on.
+1. I'd include Alonso in that list as well, as he has a remarkable ability to drive a crap/damaged car extremely fast. His drive to keep Schuey behind him at Imola 2005, in a clearly inferior car, was one of the best races I've ever seen.
He also lost out on a few WCs by very small margins, not least in 2007 of course. Had major battles with the greatest; Schuey, Lewis and Vettel. I remember watching him in the Le Man 24 hours, forget which year; his laps were just so much quicker than anyone else. Definitely one of the greatest ever, imo.
rather than fixating on imagined aspects of someone’s personality, based on your own prejudices about people you’ve never met?
Hold on, you might not agree with what I say and I've already said let's draw a line under it.
But let's be clear - they are inferences based on my observations of RB and Max over many years, not something I imagined on a whim "based on my own prejudices".
He also lost out on a few WCs by very small margins,
He was 8 points off being a five time champion