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less than 5% so a ‘minor breach’ in the rules
Should be similar to Rugby, where you have to average the amounts over 3 seasons.
So any overspend last year, is deducted off the 2023 season.
Only for minor stuff though.
Twitter is fun reading tonight!… 😀
https://twitter.com/spannersready/status/1579504604072796160?s=46&t=YeJ2e55EE1E8VTqLjv41RQ
Meanwhile, the W Series has had to end its season early, due to 'financial difficulties':
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/63206887
Oh look, RB cheated, but will get away with it. Surprise Surprise.
Cheaty McCheat team
W Series is an odd one. You can’t argue with it’s aims but it leads nowhere. Perhaps they should part fund a drive in F3 as prize for the winner. Winner bringing the same budget they bought to W Series.
If a 3 time winner is struggling to move on it shows something is wrong.
Agrees. We have no idea how good Chadwick actually is, very difficult to find a benchmark to judge her against.
I would love to see an F2/IndyLights/WEC team take a punt and give her a go.
Wasn't there a feeder series which gave a drive in a big series as a prize a few years ago? IIRC something like the Clio Cup giving a BTCC drive to the winner? I would like to see the W Series winner get similar.
I’m finding it interesting that RB aren’t going quietly here. If it was all being brushed under the carpet, or they were getting away with it I wouldn’t expect them to be posting this
https://twitter.com/redbullracing/status/1579500220735492098?s=20&t=VAwqW_RXHdIkAg4zLdSO6A
Sweapstake time!…
How long do we think this will rumble on for through the courts?
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
Correct. For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted. I find it hard to hold them in high regard at all. I'd hate to work their, imagine how hard some of those staff have worked only to find that someone in the system constantly cheats you out of a clean victory, effectively making you complicit in this everlasting suspicion of wrong doing.
How long do we think this will rumble on for through the courts?
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
Then we have this seasons cost cap results as well. If they thought they were getting away with it last season then you can bet they thought they would get away with it this season as well.
I’m finding it interesting that RB aren’t going quietly here. If it was all being brushed under the carpet, or they were getting away with it I wouldn’t expect them to be posting this
Agree
I am surprised you all still watch after last season, F1 currently has nothing to do with sport it's just a big joke.
For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted. I find it hard to hold them in high regard at all. I’d hate to work their, imagine how hard some of those staff have worked only to find that someone in the system constantly cheats you out of a clean victory, effectively making you complicit in this everlasting suspicion of wrong doing.
1. Last year wasn’t Red Bulls doing
2. “Constantly cheats”. What?
Then we have this seasons cost cap results as well. If they thought they were getting away with it last season then you can bet they thought they would get away with it this season as well.
If I were Horner, I'd accept some financial penalty for this year, then lay some staff off and run the last 4 Grand Prix with minimum staff to ensure no over-spend bleeds into 2023.
Fining them the amount they overspent by, would be an apt punishment. Or lower their limit for spending by that amount for next season.
A fine won't be any deterrent unless it's utterly massive. A better way would be to just have a rolling budget spread over several years. You can overspend this year, but your budget for the next couple of years will be reduced by that amount.
A better way would be to just have a rolling budget spread over several years. You can overspend this year, but your budget for the next couple of years will be reduced by that amount.
Im not convinced that’s much of a deterrent especially when the overspend related to a period of fundamental change in regulations and how aero works. Getting the basics right in yr1 would be worth having to cutback a little at dinner point in the future by when the cap might be higher than now
I haven't followed the season but this story has got me looking at things again. If the FIA don't come down pretty hard on RedBull then it makes a complete mockery of the whole cost cap and the sport as a whole. If a team can overspend at a critical time - at the beginning of new regulations when the most performance gains can be found the easiest and when battling for a championship - then not get a punishment that corrects the advantage then it's one complete farce. Last season's result was dodgy anyway, this just makes it downright wrong in my eyes. How many race results would have changed if Max or Perez had had a car that was 1/10 of a lap slower all race? Enough to affect both championships definitely.
The penalty for RedBull needs to be enough to negate any advantage they gained last season and also to stop them building on that advantage this year and the next. I have no real idea how you would ensure that though, maybe the only fair way is to scrub RedBull from last year's results table but no-one moves up so that we have no champion for last year. The same as Le Tour did when they removed Lance's wins from the record books. Either way Max is going to have an asterisk by both of his championships and any more he wins in the next year or two. A sad time for the sport in general.
Let's face it, <5% of £115 million is definitely a championship alerting amount of money, easiest way would be to increase all other teams budget by the amount red bull have overspent, and strip them of last season's trophy.
1. Last year wasn’t Red Bulls doing
The current cost cap investigation relates to last year. They’ve been found guilty.
2. “Constantly cheats”. What?
See above, see the pressure they put on Masi, see flexi wings etc, and yes I’d bet a fiver on the fact that they are again pushing at the cost cap. The latter point we might agree was pushing the boundaries of developmental rules and that all teams are guilty of that, but we do find red bull have more suspicion attributed to them than most.
We’ll likely never know how much performance the extra cash did or didn’t unlock, but suffice it to say they used it and others didn’t and red bull appear to have a dominant car in the majority of conditions. Like I said before, if the performance impact of exceeding the cap was at least minor I feel sorry for the team, because it shows they worked hard to get a great car on track only to be let down by their management team who appear to want to win by the all edged cheating.
After 38 years of following F1 pretty closely I've boycotted watching the 2022 season after the 2021 season ending farce. What have I missed?
Red Bull benefitting from F1 rules not being implemented properly you say, quelle surprise...
What is bonkers is that up to 5% overspend is considered "minor".
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime....but if they aren't properly punished, why shouldn't every other team do the same (and use the catering and sick pay budget for performance upgrades).
But it's the FIA...they won't do anything.
Remember when the discussion was more about racing cars ....... ?
It's sad but politics and money have ruined the class.
Remember when the discussion was more about racing cars ……. ?
Were you watching during the Moseley era? That was a massively litigious time with all sort of protests and decisions. Nothing much has changed, dispute and argument has been part of the sport for years (remember Hunt and his bulging... tyres). One job of F1 personnel is to find grey areas in the rules and exploit them, then other teams complain and the whole thign gets reviewed and that grey area becomes black and white, so they move on to the next grey area. If RedBull have done that then every other team will be 1) furious that they didn't think of it and 2) doing all they can to reverse the advantage that RedBull got by doing it.
With regard to the W series I firmly belief that Chadwick should have had a FP1 session in the Williams. They didn’t have anything to lose by replacing Lattiffi.
After 38 years of following F1 pretty closely I’ve boycotted watching the 2022 season after the 2021 season ending farce. What have I missed?
You don't need to know, because you've boycotted it, right?
For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted
Lol! 🤣 Some people...
With regard to the W series I firmly belief that Chadwick should have had a FP1 session in the Williams. They didn’t have anything to lose by replacing Lattiffi.
What level is the W series though, in terms of car performance? Because if it's lower than other classes, then shouldn't the route be through those? I'm all for women being encouraged into motorsport more, but if the W series cars are nowhere near F1 performance, then there's the risk of women drivers being out of their depth if they do get to drive an F1 car, and this would only fuel the naysayers and misogynists. An F1 car is nearly twice the weight of a W-S car, and has nearly 4x the power. That's a massive step up.
Like I said before, if the performance impact of exceeding the cap was at least minor I feel sorry for the team, because it shows they worked hard to get a great car on track only to be let down by their management team who appear to want to win by the all edged cheating.
Doesn't matter if the extra spent found only minor gains or even none at all, it's an advantage as they haven't spent the money within the cost cap on it so they can use that for other avenues of performance.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Catering budgets and sick pay are part of running a team, why should they be different to anyone else?
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Where's that from? Their tweet is simply "there is no overspend"
Where’s that from? Their tweet is simply “there is no overspend”
From various trusted journalists.
What level is the W series though, in terms of car performance? Because if it’s lower than other classes, then shouldn’t the route be through those?
Roughly equivalent to F3 in car performance terms.
No one really knows in terms of driving standards as they are very difficult to benchmark until some of them get into bigger categories.
F2, IndyLights, DTM would be an obvious step up for Chadwick, and would give us an indication of how good she really is.
For all we know she could be Hamilton level in a field of LeClercs or just a Latifi racing a bunch of Mazapins just now, but she definitely deserves an F2 drive at least. Surely there must be some sponsor would take her on for the publicity she would bring?
andrewh
For all we know she could be Hamilton level in a field of LeClercs or just a Latifi racing a bunch of Mazapins just now, but she definitely deserves an F2 drive at least. Surely there must be some sponsor would take her on for the publicity she would bring?
Do Williams not have an idea of how fast she is? I think she has been doing simulator work with them for a while, which must give some indicator of how she compares?
Lot of sources claiming an overspend of 1 to 2 Million, it cost 1.8m to rebuild Maxs car after silverstone , then the race after bottas took out half a Dozen Cars including Max, ,thats 2m out thier Budjet. ok other teams had Crashes but none had to rebuild a Car from scratch, so could be there was no performance gain overall . And they Just done a damn good Job. Who knows maybe we will never get the true answer.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
That’s a lot of sick pay and many trays of sandwiches
Chadwick did an Indy Lights test back in Sept...
https://racingnews365.com/chadwick-pleasantly-surprised-by-indylights-car-after-test
mav12
Lot of sources claiming an overspend of 1 to 2 Million, it cost 1.8m to rebuild Maxs car after silverstone , then the race after bottas took out half a Dozen Cars including Max, ,thats 2m out thier Budjet. ok other teams had Crashes but none had to rebuild a Car from scratch, so could be there was no performance gain overall .
Eh? This argument makes no sense to me.
They have a budget. If they have to spend money re-building a car (as Horner would probably say, "hey, these things happen in racing") they have less money to spend on development of the car.
Over-spending means they can negate (some of) the additional costs, by dipping into money that they "didn't have" to further develop the car.
It's unfortunate that incidents throughout the year meant that repair costs ate into the budget but at the end of the day, that's the luck of the draw. It's not like they didn't have the benefit of good luck at other points in the season.
Other teams like Williams & Haas seemed to be constantly re-building broken cars, so it's not exactly a unique situation.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay
So now we know who MartynS works for now https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/employee-sickness/
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Martin Brundle reported it. I should add that the "no great crime" is Red Bull's or Martin Brundle's words not mine
Eh? This argument makes no sense to me.
Me neither. If some can blame the overspend on a subsidised canteen then surely after rebuilding the car (not even half way through the year!) a responsible CFO would say "sorry folks we need to spend more on the car so no more cheap lunches". In the current climate many people are living on a limited budget and if they have an unexpected bill then they are forced to cut corners elsewhere to make ends meet, so with all the tech available to them an F1 team should be able to do the same.
It sounds like this is a bit like doing your taxes. Money is allocated to either running the team or development/build/test costs that are then in scope of the cap.
So it looks like RB have been unable to provide receipts. For sick pay, the payroll should provide that? So if no receipts, can't see an appeal achieving anything.
less than 5% so a ‘minor breach’ in the rules
The word minor is in the rule book to distinguish it from "major" breaches not because they think it's less consequential, but it's not a massive obvious fraud of "There appears to be an entire room full of employees who're not on the books" sort of crime. So the breach could still attract some substantial fines or points removal
Under 5% is still up to £7M. Benotti suggesting at the weekend that that sort of cash on car development brings you perhaps as as much as 1/2 a second a lap.
perhaps as as much as 1/2 a second a lap.
Which over 2 years = 1 second, pretty much how much faster Max is than his nearest rival. Makes you think…
So it looks like RB have been unable to provide receipts. For sick pay, the payroll should provide that? So if no receipts, can’t see an appeal achieving anything.
I don't think it's quite that, I think they are disputing the interpretation of some regulations. Red Bull haven't tried to hide anything, they are claiming that what they did was legal. Something like this was bound to happen, teams will always be looking for interpretations of regulations that give them some benefit. What we have now is a test case that will determine whether Red Bull's interpretation was reasonable or not. If it is, everyone will be doing the same thing next year.
We don't know how much the sum in question is. All we know is that it's less than 7 million. Best to wait until we know how much it is before speculating about lap time gains.
1.7 to 1.8m apparently
1.7 to 1.8m apparently
Sauce?
Brundle again....could be made up
Brundle said he has heard that Red Bull have gone around $1.8m over the cap,
Do Red Bull use the same auditing company as Trump? 🤣🤣🤣
Can't wait to hear David Coulthards view on this...
Can’t wait to hear David Coulthards view on this
Should be too hard to figure out he'll be quite neutral about it. He is a RBR and RB brand ambassador so I'd guess there is a caveat somewhere in his contracts.
This Tweet from Alex Brundle hit the nail on the head - from now on we’re going to have the ‘who’s not played ball’ 10 month wait every season now…
https://twitter.com/alexbrundle/status/1579762436110168064?s=12&t=KA-s9uuRIqHXvd00kONPcA
…so no season will ever really be finalised at the final race. Sad state of affairs.
Just add 20kg to the car for every million they go over-budget - sorted. 36kg will trump $1.8 million every time.
I don’t think it’s quite that, I think they are disputing the interpretation of some regulations.
Agreed. Like the sick pay for R&D staff not being included as part of the capped part of the budget, because they're not actually working or something like that. Not sure what the hospitality bit is all about though.
it can all be explained
https://twitter.com/the_lollipopman/status/1579866435295539201
Classic trolling by Rich Energy
https://formula1news.co.uk/cashgate-rich-energy-congratulate-lewis-hamilton-on-winning-2021-title/
Zak Brown has written to the FIA with an interesting proposal - Fine with a reduction in budget cap for the current year, and a reduction in R & D.
That could be painful.
I think Pato O'Ward enjoyed his run in Senna's McLaren!...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-a-frickin-beast-owards-adventure-in-sennas-mclaren/
https://twitter.com/PatricioOWard/status/1581793489406173184
https://www.youtube.com/embed/jQY4mhdmrEw
Have we all mentally checked out of this season then!? 🤣🤣
Seems FIA are offering an 'accepted breach' cover up and Red Bull are digging their heels in.
Maybe the FIA will set the "Maximum" spend at £X million and then the "Acceptable" Breach at £Y million, the "Hang on a mo.." breach at £Z million and the "You are taking the p155 now" breach at £KKK million with sanctions varying from a harsh comment in the newspaper to some serious frowns and right up to an all expenses trip for the FIA to wherever they want to discuss the matter in detail over cocktails?
An Accepted Breach Agreement would mean that redbull have to admit that they did something wrong, which would be a major U turn on everything Horner has said to date. And he's a fighter, not a quitter.
Its a bit like accepting a speeding fine and paying the fixed penalty rather than going to court - if they don't go for the ABA then it opens up a much wider range of penalties. For example an ABA means no points loss and no change to future cost caps, but if they go head to head with the FIA then those options are back in play.
Forget all that, it's boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
Now that Max has his second well deserved WC, who will take second this season? Will it be a battle between Perez and LeClerc, or could Russell sneak in and grab it? Or will Carlos Sainz suddenly discover some of the driving talent his father had, and prove he's not just their cos he's someone's son?
Unlike son of Jos?
Forget all that, it’s boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
Have you been on Twitter at all! 🙂
Forget all that, it’s boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
The other teams seem to be extremely angry about it, all the others were under the cost cap. If the FIA don't handle this carefully, the other teams will take it as licence to breach the cost cap, which will mean the cost cap will become meaningless, which will mean that manufacturer backed super-teams will dominate and the small teams will struggle to survive. Red Bull fans obviously don't GAS, but fans of any of the other teams do.
Unlike son of Jos?
He's there on merit though. He is much better than his dad ever was. Mick Schumacher hasn't proved to be much cop either.
His 'merit' is now two tainted WC's as well as being a sport sportsman.
But I'm sure you are right. No one outside the UK cares that RB have cheated their way to another championship.
His ‘merit’ is now two tainted WC’s as well as being a sport sportsman.
But I’m sure you are right. No one outside the UK cares that RB have cheated their way to another championship.
Lol! Want some vinegar with all that salt?
Now; this weekend's racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Apart from a couple [cough]Latifi/Stroll[/cough] all F1 drivers are there on merit.
Anyway, enough of that - have you all watched that Pato O'Ward video!!
Just shows what we're missing with modern F1 cars.
Now; this weekend’s racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Im paying no more attention to the cheats and spending my time watching everyone else for some car racing. That’s as far as my interest goes unless something is done with RB to level the playing field in 2024 and I might get interested again*
*In will be interested in Mercedes 2024 redesign.
A more detailed look at the overspend from a respected journo...
https://racingnews365.com/red-bulls-f1-cost-cap-breach-was-in-four-main-areas
...the R&D tax rebate is a weird one. Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster? I presume they've all done this not just Red Bull.
I've seen those figures bandied around before. First off there was a trial run last year and I expect catering, garden leave, sickness etc needed to be included in everyone's 2020 submissions as well. So let's call that a smoke screen.
Second, other teams will have similar costs and still managed their budgets within the cost cap.
Third, if you've overspent by 2M on developing parts (not saying this has happened, innocent until proven guilty and all that) and are found to be over the cost cap you're not going to admit that. No, you'll find a bunch of other slightly debatable costs that combine to give an "excusable" overspend that offsets the competitive overspend.
I really hope the FIA give full transparency on what has happened and how they reached whatever conclusion they come to.
Anyhow, Austin - really hard to see past another demonstration drive from max. It seems merc are bringing their final upgrade of the year but I think the gap is too big for them to fight for a normal win, so that leaves ferrari who somehow need to keep their Saturday pace on Sunday and not mess up the strategy. Midfield is more interesting with an improving alpine needing to start out scoring a waning mclaren.
I really hope the FIA give full transparency
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Apart from a couple [cough]Latifi/Stroll[/cough] all F1 drivers are there on merit.
Lance Stroll is actually a decent driver. Yes, he has a wealthy father who paid his way, but pretty much all the drivers got there because they convinced someone to put serious money towards their careers. Latifi shouldn't be there, but Stroll, Tsunoda, and Zhou, all seem to be reasonable drivers, despite basically being pay drivers.
Im paying no more attention to the cheats and spending my time watching everyone else for some car racing. That’s as far as my interest goes unless something is done with RB to level the playing field in 2024 and I might get interested again*
*In will be interested in Mercedes 2024 redesign.
K thanx bye. See you in 2024.
…the R&D tax rebate is a weird one. Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster?
Great, so the cost cap compliance (or otherwise) now rests on HMRC making a decision to apply, or not, a tax credit. What a FIA farce...
It also raises the question - do teams outside of the UK get tax rebates on R&D work!?
It also raises the question – do teams outside of the UK get tax rebates on R&D work!?
And that is obviously open to abuse. Any tinpot regime could offer 100% tax rebates to attract F1 teams to their country (and following on from that article, could provide free catering to the whole workforce 😉 )
I can't help but feel RB/Horner think there's sufficient interpretation of the rules that they still think they can "prove" their innocence, otherwise they'd have accepted the ABA. If that's the case then every other team who interpreted them differently might need to have their budgets changed retrospectively, perhaps allowing them to spend more for 2023-4 as a result.
Now; this weekend’s racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Frankly, there isn't anything interesting to discuss now, except the politics...I'll watch the C4 highlights but will probably drift off to sleep or be browsing on my phone.
Just shows what we’re missing with modern F1 cars.
I actually got a bit emotional watching that, sounds stupid and probably is but i did. For years in my opinion its been downforce thats made F1 .... rubbish but at least theyve tried to address it this year. I remember when they tried to make "better racing" in the late 90s and I was speaking to my friends about it and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip and then they decided on grooved tyres. it was around about then I stopped watching as much. Im sure ive mentioned before in this or even last years thread the only races I go out of my way to watch now are Spa and Susuka as id rather watch GT3 and WEC races.
The only interest this weekend is the rookies in FP1 - some promising talent…