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I dunno, I was unsure why they gave up track position with an early first stop even if it was under VSC. It left them no choice but to pit again, which left Charles 17s behind Max with 17 laps to go. Seemed odd to roll the dice on a two-stop when they were ahead on track with decent pace. Maybe their data showed something that wasn’t apparent on TV, maybe they just dropped the ball again.
My guess is that Ferrari couldn't make the tyres last so figured a two-stopper was worth the gamble.
What a shite ending...
WTF was Bottas up to not un-lapping himself?
(Not that the race result was ever likely to change in the last couple of laps....)
I don't think lapped cars were told to overtake, the first bunch that did was just the safety car picking up the lead car. The rules state the pack needs to then form up (again) before lapped cars are allowed past.
The FIA followed the rule book to the letter, but because the safety car did not pick up the lead car, it takes ages to sort out and no cars are allowed past the safety car until the recovery vehicle is off the track.
I'm torn over this one - the race directors did a lousy job of managing the safety car. It should take no more than one or two laps for the pack to form up when you're dealing with an isolated incident on a dry track. Also perhaps circuits need to review their recovery plans and the FIA should mandate that an intact stopped car can be recovered in X minutes no matter where it is on the circuit - obviously things will always take longer for multiple cars or where there's a load of debris.
BUT - I'm OK with races finishing under the SC if an incident happens late - it's happened before without any hoo-haa because it was appropriate and fair. If the rules and timeline for an SC are clear then all the teams can react accordingly - the trouble with AD last year and now Monza was that the SC period was executed poorly so at least some of the teams feel let down by this.
I thought the rules have changed now so the cars have a set laptime under safety car conditions, so it takes much longer for the pack to form up, even more so when they need to complete a whole lap having been let past.
Liberty Media have got to be behind this push for Colton Herta - he's gone from pretty good (but not great) Indycar driver to the hottest catch in F1 - now Alpine want to run him in their car - all seems a bit weird...
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/13/herta-tipped-for-alpine-test-in-latest-twist-to-red-bull-saga/
Here's a thought about lapped cars in safety car periods.
Why are they sent forward ahead of the safety car? Why not send them to the back, maybe by sending lapped cars slowly through the pit lane while the leaders remain on track?
Why can't lapped cars just put on the brakes on the left side of the track and filter backwards to the correct position. Much quicker 😂
Because that gives them an advantage, because they then have one lap less tyre wear and more fuel.
They could just leave them where they are?
If there where 3 lapped cars between you and the car in front before a safety car, why not leave them there instead of giving the following car an artificial advantage by closing the gap.
Leaving them there seems the best solution to me, you then don't artificially mess with the order too much; all it does is close up the gaps between cars regardless of the lap they are on. Sometimes things are overcomplicated!
If AD hadn't happened, it wouldn't even be a debate.
If AD hadn’t happened, it wouldn’t even be a debate.
AD was a debacle, but it happened because finishing a race behind a safety car is pretty anti-climatic. Personally, I think an automatic red flag instead of a safety car within five laps of the end would be better. Still not perfect, but nothing will be, and a five-lap sprint race would be exciting. Maybe allow tyre changes and repairs, but put those cars at the back in the order that they finish their pitstops. Cars that don't make tyre changes or repairs start at the front in their previous running order.
Anyone else just noticed that this whole entire saga is because of Latifi?
AD was a debacle, but it happened because finishing a race behind a safety car is pretty anti-climatic.
i thought it was because the race director buckled under pressure from red bull.
whenever a safety car happens some people loose out. sometimes a race finishes under a safety car.
though all sport is entertainment for the people watching, it’s actually a competition for the people in the race, i’d rather is stayed as competition first and entertainment second even if this means that an occasional race finishes behind the safety car.
none of that really covers the, “did they do it properly in monza?” question, but like i said, i’d prefer a competition following the rules than a dramatic 4 lap shootout for the sake of entertainment.
Its the whole Sport vs Show argument
You could throw safety cars, have 5 laps at the end of the race, but it all starts to descend into some kind of Nascar/WWE situation, where every race has to finish in some "spectacular" way.
The finishing order at the front would have been the same as if the Safety Car hadnt been needed, and the right person won on the day. I'd rather see that at every race than another AD farce.
Sometimes you need a boring race to make the good ones stand out.
Remember when Michael used to qualify on pole and just drive off into the distance?
Those world cup games that end in 0-0 after 90 mins?
5 days of cricket which still ends up as a draw?
No we forget all those, but if every race ended up with some mario kart ending involving banana skins being thrown out onto circuit to spice things up, we'd forget about all of those too.
Sometimes you need a boring race to make the good ones stand out.
Too right! After a hard bike ride on a Sunday morning I want a soporific F1 race to help me into a power nap after lap 5. Exciting racing from the start means no power nap and a grumpy Mark for the rest of the day!
Those who watch on NowTV - how long does it take for them to make full race available on demand? Two days after race and it isn’t there. Couldn’t watch live on Sunday.
Not overly happy as you can’t even pause while watching. It’s a bit rubbish!
They don’t, hence why its called now tv.
C4 for the replay.
Which is why the better and cheaper option is f1tv & vpn, £8 a month for awesome coverage that puts sky to shame. Its a real shame how much sky have ruined it with their greed. £35 a month for live only or £60 odd to get f1 channels, no thanks.
Anyone else just noticed that this whole entire saga is because of Latifi?
Again? What did I miss this time?
Again? What did I miss this time?
Wasn't it Latifi's crash which triggered the Abu Dhabi safety car last year?
Yes, but what's that got to do with the Monza farce?
Or did I misunderstand him entirely and he just meant the Race Directors dithering over decisions generally and us fans grumbling about SCs was because of previous experience of AD?
Not Monza - that was caused by Ricciardo’s McLaren breaking down, nothing to do with Laffiti!
Because that gives them an advantage, because they then have one lap less tyre wear and more fuel.
Well that’s what happens when you’re lapped. Another thing that happens when you’re lapped is that you don’t win the race. I wouldn’t call it an advantage.
i thought it was because the race director buckled under pressure from red bull.
There was a fairly widespread feeling that finishing races under safety car conditions wasn't great, but there weren't any rule changes to actually fix the problem. In AD, the race director crumbled under the pressure and cocked it all up, I'm pretty sure he thought he was doing what people wanted. AD was on him, but the desire to finish races under a green flag was quite widespread and the teams still haven't actually done anything to improve things.
What about stipulating a minimum time in the pit lane when a VSC or SC is deployed. Eg normal pit lane time is 24s for a tyre stop so under VSC you can't cross the pit exit less than 30s after you cross the entrance, for full SC it's 40 seconds. Those values could be adjusted for each circuit and it'd effectively cancel the free pit stop advantage while leaving the pit lane open for those who need it.
You’re saying that there’s a problem with the difference between the time lost for stops under the VSC/SC and racing conditions, and your solution to that is to introduce a difference between the time lost for stops under the VSC/SC and racing conditions.
Thing is, I don’t think anyone involved in the racing has a problem with the unpredictable nature of opportunities to stop under VSC/SC. It’s part of racing and it can help spice things up. In the same way that they don’t have a problem with hard-earned gaps being undone by the SC or passing opportunities being lost under VSC.
All of those quasi-randoms things are fine, because sometimes you gain and sometimes you lose. What the teams and drivers (and most spectators) have an issue with is slow decision making, inconsistent decisions, disregard for process, and processes that drag out non-racing conditions for longer than necessary.
I'm with Bez.
No problem with SCs and things along as the rules are followed and consistently applied, random events happen but as long as they are dealt with consistently the teams know how to deal with them
So, apparently Alex Palau has a deal where he'll stay with Chip Ganassi in Indycars, but can do F1 testing with McLaren provided it doesn't clash with his Indycar schedule.
I’m with Bez.
agree
Alex Palau has a deal where he’ll stay with Chip Ganassi in Indycars, but can do F1 testing
this was an interesting development. i hope his next season is more like his first. i wonder if Brown lost interest in him after signing the australian guy, whose name escapes me right now. i’m really looking forward to seeing how good he is.
i also wonder how many other drivers Brown has tried to “steal” this season?
i also wonder how many other drivers Brown has tried to “steal” this season?
Scott McLaughlin tweeted a few days ago along the lines of, "announcement coming tomorrow." His twitter thread was full of "been talking to Zac Brown?" comments. Turns out he signed a new deal with Penske but I'm sure Penske wanted it sorted out quickly just to be sure.
have an issue with is slow decision making, inconsistent decisions, disregard for process, and processes that drag out non-racing conditions for longer than necessary.
The rules were applied entirely correctly at Monza. After the debacle at AD the teams were asked to come up with a set of proposals that the FIA could work with to make sure (or at least try) to ensure that races finish with racing , not a procession. That the teams couldn't agree on a way forward was telling, as it demonstrates that regardless of what the race directors do, some one will be pissed off. Had Masi applied the rules correctly you can be absolutely sure that he would've been accused of manipulating the race to favour Hamilton and Mercedes. The only thing that would've made a difference to both AD and Monza would've been to red flag the race, sort out the track, restart the race again.
What we see is that the race officials are damned if they do, and damned if they don't; regardless of how they try to manipulate an accident at the end of race to get the race going again.
What we see is that the race officials are damned if they do, and damned if they don’t; regardless of how they try to manipulate an accident at the end of race to get the race going again.
To be fair, the only thing that brings criticism of the race officials for following the rules at Monza is that they didn't at AD. If that hadn't happened, there'd just be low-level rumblings about it being a bit rubbish to finish a race behind the SC.
Barrel well and truly being scraped at Alpine!...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/giovinazzi-set-to-join-alpine-f1-test-at-hungaroring/10369484/
...what is it with this team!?
The rules were applied entirely correctly at Monza.
I know, I wasn’t saying that all of those factors were on show last weekend, but they’re still issues that we’ve seen in the last 12 months which have caused discontent.
It's a fairly simple algorithm: if applying the rules benefits Max Verstappen then use them. If they don't, chuck them in the bin and make up your own on the spot. Perfect! Consistency incarnate
which have caused discontent.
The teams seem to be content to let it rumble on. They've been asked to come up with a way of mitigating these sorts of issues and have chosen not to. It appears that the teams would rather have a situation where they would like to say they want clarity, but seem more than content not to do anything just in case they benefit from opacity.
The teams seem to be content to let it rumble on. They’ve been asked to come up with a way of mitigating these sorts of issues and have chosen not to.
Exactly. The teams just won't get together and sort out the problem. Yes, Masi screwed the pooch at AD, he deserved to be sacked, but the teams did collectively say they wanted races to finish under a green flag and they haven't addressed the rules that make that impossible.
Had Masi applied the rules correctly you can be absolutely sure that he would’ve been accused of manipulating the race to favour Hamilton and Mercedes.
but his justification for acting the way he did would have been that he was applying the rules consistently and in a way that the teams were expecting.
Just been reading this on Twitter…
https://twitter.com/silverstoneuk/status/1570440027435401217?s=21&t=uwhhw3nxYRu8naq4KhmcWA
…what is this sport becoming!? What’s wrong with setting a ticket price and sticking to it. I’m slowly losing the love for it.
Silverstone should be ashamed.
Along with the increased reports of abuse at circuits. It doesn’t have the same feel and I no longer bother about missing a GP.
The Herta thing was never more than an attempt to distract from the bigger news about Red Bull splitting with Porsche. There was never any serious possibility that he would get a Super Licence.
https://twitter.com/Motorsport/status/1570766398321991681
So they are keeping Gasly and Tsunoda?
I would guess Gasly will off to alpine, his career isn't going anywhere at AT, and he's unlikely to go back to RB. Just a question of getting out of his contract.
I've been impressed with Tsunoda this year. He was underwhelming last year but seems to have stepped up a bit this year, I don't know if it's due to more experience or if the car suits him better or what
Seems 2007 at Mclaren was worse than we knew, not only were Mclaren caught with the Ferrari documents and disqulified with a fine of 100 mil, it now seems Alonso tried to bribe everyone who wasnt working on Lewis's car
I believe I’ve met Mark Priestley and in the limited five minutes of exposure I had he came across as a bit of a nasty chap.
I have a (thankfully) former colleague who reckoned Priestley was a good bloke they worked together at Mcl), that's enough to cement him as definitely NOT a good bloke in my eyes. I may be doing him a disservice who knows.
Pretty bad of the Alonso bung story is true...
Really though I doubt it would have made any difference.
The mechs work for the team not the driver. Not a lot they can do to upset the running of the other car
Surely the "bribes" would have been better directed at the folk working on Hamiltons car? That not being the case it looks like a "thank you" rather than a bribe.
What VPN are you using?
I've been looking into this and it seems F1 TV actively try and block VPN created IPs. So I don't want to shell out ££s and find I have to keep switching VPN suppliers.
I cancelled NOW over the weekend. £34 a month is just rubbish for what they are offering.
I use Nord, and then VPN to RTL Luxembourg, as they have it on free-to-air with no login needed, it mneans I have to watch it in a foreign languagem but I can live with that as the commentary is pretty terrible anyways.
F1 NASCAR announces 24 race calendar for 2023...
24 races, 3 engines (etc), budget cap. Choose all of them, apparently. I can see some interesting comments from the teams coming soon, wouldn't be the first time that burnout (people, not tyres) has come into it
I’ve been using PIA’s VPN to a Turkish IP with F1 TV with no issues, £5.99 per month for the Pro package.
Nord here too. No issues though you need a credit card of the country you go for.
(Or Apple Pay 😉)
Tbh I paid for nowtv last year, it was shite but it was a brilliant second half of the season. F1tv’s coverage is superior in every way apart from missing out on brundle’s grid walk - it’s just ridiculous how bad sky coverage is for the money and how licensing restrictions force us into paying through the nose for sub par content.
Thanks folks. I'll try a VPN for next season.
Not going to bother for now - season is done and dusted so I'll just have to watch C4 highlights and DC in his tight trousers! 🙂
For all the Christian Horner fans, the latest Beyond the Grid podcast has a whole hour of of him for your enjoyment 😂
(Where's the tumbleweed emoji?)
Oh wow! Didn't see that coming! 🙂
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/23/williams-confirms-latifi-will-not-drive-for-team-again-in-2023/
Thank god! Williams deserve better than Latiffi. He doesn’t need to see out his contract for me
He’ll see it out as it’ll likely be his last ever chance to drive an F1 car
To be fair to him, he’s been winning Williams a lot of wind tunnel time.
(Though once he leaves then they’ll probably claw that time back by no longer having to cover the wind tunnel floor with gravel and mount the model on a rotating turntable.)
20 cars on the grid and Latiffi is 21st in the drivers standing with only Hulkenberg behind him says it all really
Latifi's not been that bad compared to the pay drivers of old, Karthikeyan etc.
He can't be that bad.
2nd in F2 behind De Vryes isn't anything to be ashamed of. Just getting into F1 is a massive achievement, even for someone with financial backing they still need the skill to get a superlicence.
However, 'very good' just doesn't cut it at that level and he's clearly not 'the best of the best' Being not as good as Russell Albon or De Vryes still isn't bad
Looks like McLaren are doing a Red Bull/Ferrari hybrid sidepod upgrade for this weekend. Rumoured to be heavily updated floor too. This style of sidepod seems to be favoured by most teams now. Wonder if Merc will experiment with it before the season is out?
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High speed R&D = Rip-off & Duplicate
🙂
the-muffin-man
Full MemberLooks like McLaren are doing a Red Bull/Ferrari hybrid sidepod upgrade for this weekend.
Yes looks quite a big update.
However, it's for Lando only, I'm getting these vibes:
Yep - Lando is getting first crack that this.
McLaren need to pull something special out of the bag if they're going to claim fourth in the constructors standings this year, Alpine have been over-delivering of late.
It'll be a fine, not a DQ
nickc
Full MemberIt’ll be a fine, not a DQ
I know, I was joking. But there is a serious point- a fine doesn't help, they've got money to burn. They've gained an advantage which has won them both championships (assuming the rumour is correct & it is red bull) and the performance advantage will continue to be an advantage next year.
It would be good to dock them wind tunnel time or something.
Yeah agreed, it's not much of a deterrent, I'd bet money teams have any fine built into the budget anyway. It's what I'd do.
Or they’ve just spent too much on marketing and not really gained anything. Will be interesting to see what comes out though. A fine taken out of next years budget would work
Just one more nail in the coffin for my love of F1.
Why is this news coming out 10 months after the season has ended? Overspend last season was more likely for gain this season. Was it not being monitored during the season in some way?
Let them piss money up the wall if they have it, chuck as many engines in as they want and go back to the 80s style of racing! 🙂
Only way to truly control costs is to make it a spec series.
Why is this news coming out 10 months after the season has ended?
It's not news, it's speculation.
Only speculation if it's reported on PlanetF1! 🙂
It's being reported on a proper F1 site too...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/red-bull-one-of-two-teams-believed-to-have-broken-budget-cap/
Good chance Red Bull will be collared for overspend this season too. There's been rumours for a while now they've blown the budget and have been using Alpha Tauri for R&D work too.
I wonder if Team Redbull......erm, sorry I mean David Coulthard & Mark Weber will ask Karen about the budget cap?
Aaaaah shit!... 🙁😀🤬🤬
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-extends-sky-tv-broadcast-deal-until-2029/10376571/
A fine taken out of next years budget would work
Would it? Or would teams then spend £300m this year to make sure of the championship and just write off next year?
They have designers, engineers, drivers, etc who are all pushing right to the limit of what rules allow and will find and exploit any loophole they come across.
I'm pretty sure they have accountants doing exactly the same
the-muffin-man
Full MemberAaaaah shit!… 🙁😀🤬🤬
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-extends-sky-tv-broadcast-deal-until-2029/10376571/Posted 21 minutes ago
****S SAKE I WANT F1 TV PRO STUPID ****S