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imnotverygood
Full MemberBut your photos don’t actually show the point of contact in the Russell/Perez incident. The contact occurs several yards down the road when both cars are on the Left hand side of the track. After your final shots both cars move left and Russell drifts into Perez. That’s why he was penalised.
This is the exact moment they touch:
See what I mean? They weren't on the left, there's still at least one cars width to the left side of perez, but they were drifting left. This is inevitable, as Russell's car physically cannot turn in tighter at this point.
The tight line Perez took which crosses Georges path, (much like Verstappen last year at Copse) basically made contact inevitable.
Maybe Red Bull will spend a media day filming Alex Albon going round the outside of a Merc at turn 4 to show… oh wait a minute.
Anyway, seemed like a racing incident to me. Perez surely can’t be daft enough not to have noticed how many people have tried that move and ended up in the gravel in recent years, so regardless of penalty it’s a pretty risky move on lap 1 when everyone’s still sussing out their own car under full fuel load, let alone everyone else’s. Russell seemed to hold the best line he could, never opened the steering. It seemed (at the time) like Perez had rather more space than Vettel was given by Gasly.
I thought much the same as noted above about Verstappen’s racing against Leclerc: he seemed strangely compliant. Maybe having the number 1 on the car has calmed him right down. Maybe something else.
His comments about the abusive fan behaviour seemed odd, though:
"And also don't forget, it's not an excuse, but of course, they watch the races and then they go back and party and have fun and drink alcohol. And sometimes when you drink alcohol, you can do stupid things. I don't say this as an excuse but also these things can be regulated."
I mean, I don’t know the fine details of the behaviour at hand, but I can safely say that whilst beer has been a catalyst in me behaving like a monumental dick on numerous occasions, I’ve never seen it turn a non-racist person racist.
Speaking after the race, Marko criticised Perez for attempting an overtake at Turn 4, saying he had been warned against such a move.
"We said before the start: do not go around the outside in that corner. That is not possible," Marko told Sky Sport Germany.
"This was just unnecessary. We've seen that before. It doesn't work. After that, the car was damaged and it made no sense to continue driving.
https://racingnews365.com/red-bull-critical-of-perezs-driving-we-told-him-not-to-do-that
Also:
Former Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone charged in UK with fraud by false representation, involving assets worth $477m (£400m)
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/former-formula-one-supremo-ecclestone-charged-with-fraud-2022-07-11/
My surprise at Marko saying something circumspect and reasonable (albeit not about Golden Boy) is matched only by my total lack of surprise at Bernie behaving like a corrupt doglobber.
Former Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone charged in UK with fraud by false representation, involving assets worth $477m (£400m)
Wow. It's always the person you'd least suspect of fiddling their books.
Wow. It’s always the person you’d least suspect of fiddling their books.
Haha yep no-one saw that coming lol
Track limits question.
I’ve just seen footage of an Aston sports car being launched off a sausage kerb at Monza after sliding wide on a bend, together with an article getting very annoyed with sausage kerbs.
To address the track limits issue, rather than kerbs (sausage or otherwise) is there no way of having a low-grip, high-abrasion surface for one car width (roughly, I appreciate not all classes are the same width). If you go beyond one car width there’s a clear penalty, if you repeated go just over the limits you’re going to wreck your tyres while losing grip.
Obviously it would need to be abrasive surface to give a controlled wrecking of tyres not something like the saw tooth (probably the wrong name) kerbs that got accused of slashing tyres a few years ago.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
...wire up their seats to the battery pack - every time they the go over track limits they get a little shock, gradually increasing the more they do it. They'll soon stop!! Should make interesting team radio too! 🤣🤣
Serious answer - grass and gravel have worked well for years. The main problem is what is good for cars can be an actual killer for motorbike riders.
But grass and gravel are bad for bikes and they’re commonly shared tracks these days.
Like I said what's good for cars isn't good for bikes.
Personally I don't really care if they go over the kerbs and off the track a bit. Looks more exciting.
If they gain an advantage during an overtake then penalize them.
Theh all seem to respect the track limits at Monaco and yet everyone seems to moan about how dull that race is🤷♂️
Instead of time penalties. No electrical power for 1 lap? Or no drs for 5 laps?
What was that radio call to Lewis about - "we have had a lap docked" (or something like that)?
What was that radio call to Lewis about – “we have had a lap docked” (or something like that)?
It was just the lap time that was deleted, for exceeding track limits. So not a problem unless it was a potential fastest lap
Just in case people haven’t seen the latest sausage kerb incident (mentioned above)
That’s the one @mashr
There has to be something better than that which still creates a penalty, preferably a cumulative penalty - hence abrasion and tyre wear.
I think he took a penalty on that one
With all the onboard electronics and data monitors available it can't be beyond possibilty to record the exact postion of each car at these critical points on the track and apply penalties accordingly. That could be the current time penalties or something which actually affects the performance of the car (say a reduction in power). Of course the latter would need to be carefully done so as not to cause a moving chicane.
[i]With all the onboard electronics and data monitors available i[/i] - it is challenging to be accurate within a few centimetres consistently around all circuits at the speeds they are travelling and for the time intervals involved I should imagine
Just had a quick think about the track limits issue. Any reason this wouldn't work and be implementable even as a retrofit to existing circuits?
Place a length of cable around the inside and outside of any corner, it doesn't need to be the whole circuit, just where cutting it gives and advantage. Push a low power radio signal (or similar) through it.
Fit the cars with receivers that pick up and show the strength of the signal to show how close to the wire the cars are. If the signal gets too strong then they are too close. This would allow the drivers to see how close they are actually getting and decide how hard they want to push.
Yep. Something like that. It would be relatively cheap, could be easily fitted at the required corners and has the advantage of giving driver feedback.
There's an even easier way:
"These are the track limits, go over them and you will be penalised thusly..."
Enforce it.
[i]There’s an even easier way:
“These are the track limits, go over them and you will be penalised thusly…”
Enforce it.[/i]
First you need to be able to measure it, which is kind of what I was suggesting
Pretty sure they already have sensors or cameras on certain corners. Sure I heard Brundle say the last corner at the red bull ring had one which is why the lap times in qualifying were getting deleted immediately if they went off there. Probably why they missed Perez going off at turn 7 as I assume that one didn’t.
shirley the track limit is the inside of of the white line and not the outside of it. Or you could say its the outside of the white line, you put any part of a tyre over the white line you are off the track you'll get a penalty.
These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can't keep the cars between the white lines. 🤷♂️
[i]These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can’t keep the cars between the white lines.[/i]
I thought they were the fastest racing drivers and the aim is a fast lap time, not parallel parking, 3 point turns or courteous road positioning, just the fastest way around the circuit without actually picking up a penalty
I always thought the skill is to go as fast as you can between the white lines, not to go as fast as you can using some imaginary part of the race track. Be as well doing away with all corners then just allow them to straight line everything whilst screaming STRAVA!!!
First you need to be able to measure it, which is kind of what I was suggesting
There is handily enough, a thickly painted white line going around the outside of the track, they could use that. It's remarkable how drivers can hit a line into the pits that indicates that they should be doing 80kph, or avoid crossing the pit lane exit when joining the track, or indeed manage any number of other driving tests...and yet going around a corner while simultaneously staying between two white lines often tens of metres apart seems to give some drivers a real issue, it's almost like they have some ulterior motive or something.
Where would this fall under todays track limit rules!... 🙂
[img] 
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It was just the lap time that was deleted, for exceeding track limits. So not a problem unless it was a potential fastest lap
Ah. Thanks.
Simple way to enforce track limits to put a proper kerb in or a serrated one, stay inside the limits or risk damaging the car.🤷
Raised kerbs cause accidents - see above.
With the width of modern cars and the limited visibility it will be difficult to see exactly where the tyre is in relation to the line. Of course, this is less of an issue when there is a clearly visible wall. 😃
The technology has existed in tennis for decades and doesn't even need a multi-million pound ball packed with electronics.
is there no way of having a low-grip, high-abrasion surface for one car width
Isn't that what the visually painfull lines are for at Paul Ricard? A quick google tells me the blue is high grip but high tyre abrasion and red is extreme grip and extreme tyre abrasion. A mix of both track limits and safety to slow cars down before the barriers.
slowoldman
Ah. Thanks.
In the race, the deleted lap times are also a warning to the driver. Two deleted laps, then deleted lap and black flag, then 5s penalty.
What about a 3 inch deep pool of water around the track. Would catch motorbikers, would be shallow enough not to drown anyone in a flipped car, plus they could charge fans extra for a seat in the "Aramco LiquiMoly SplashZone™".
tomhoward
Full MemberRaised kerbs cause accidents – see above.
And below.
That was a sausage kerb again. Raised kerbs are the ones in the photo above used when every track seemed to have a different approach to kerb design
It’s remarkable how drivers can hit a line into the pits that indicates that they should be doing 80kph, or avoid crossing the pit lane exit when joining the track,
Could it be because in the pit lane they're doing 80kmph max in a straight line and on the track they could be doing 240kmph around a corner? 🤔
These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can’t keep the cars between the white lines.
They’re hired for their ability to be right at the limit lap after lap, not to pass a driving test without the instructor needing to take the cap off his biro.
staying between two white lines often tens of metres apart seems to give some drivers a real issue
The width of the track at turn-in, apex and exit point is completely and utterly irrelevant. Track width largely only matters for overtaking. The racing line is (unless you’ve got two corners close together) the edge the track at those three points—and, in the dry, if you start thinking maybe you should use some other part of the track, you won’t win a karting race, let alone get into F1.
I’m curious about the concept of a “low grip, high abrasion” surface 🙂
They’re hired for their ability to be right at the limit lap after lap, not to pass a driving test without the instructor needing to take the cap off his biro.
exactly on the limit... not 2m past the track limits. Glad we agree
exactly on the limit… not 2m past the track limits
A full car’s width beyond the limit? Where was that happening then? Because I didn’t see anything like that.
Track is the black bit not the other bit, as I've said if we are now defining the track as any part of the circuit lets just do away with corners straight line everything and call it drag racing.
That’s a photo of someone who is right on the track limit. I mean, absolutely bang on it. Not two metres over it.
You seem to think that their job is to keep the car between the white lines. It’s not. It’s to be bang on the track limit. Which is currently defined as shown above*. If you define it as the white lines then you’ll have exactly the same issue of people occasionally going over the limit, it’ll just be in a slightly different place. In the same way that if you redefined the lines on a tennis court as out, you’d still need Hawkeye but you’d have to shove it an inch or two to the side.
* I can’t recall whether it’s defined as no part of the car touching the track as defined by the outer edge of the white line, or by no part of the car being inside the region that would result from extruding the track vertically—but that’s academic for the purposes of this discussion.
I’m curious about the concept of a “low grip, high abrasion” surface 🙂
Me too @Bez, and I suggested it.
I’m starting with the assumption that there isn’t a linear correlation between grip and tyre wear - I think I’m safe on that.
And now I need a better tyre / road surface engineer than I am.
I’m starting with the assumption that there isn’t a linear correlation between grip and tyre wear – I think I’m safe on that.
I was going to suggest razor blades parallel to the direction of travel, but that’s more laceration than abrasion 😉 and the motorbikers might not be too enthusiastic about it.
Agreed @Bez.
Except perpendicular to the direction of travel would allow the radial slide on a corner.
Bit aggressive?
Perhaps a less aggressive version of the same idea (radially grooved concrete?) might work as I described.
Formula 1: Former race director Michael Masi formally leaves FIA - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62131946
Masi's gone.
I almost felt sorry for him by the end of it all, the pressure he was under must have been immense. But, still, Charlie Whiting managed to do the job, so it must have been possible
Slight change of subject
https://www.ft.com/content/e14a6d5c-4c94-47fc-9635-a089841357f3
Vjay Mallya serving a spell inside
Chip Ganassi has an option on Palou for next year. I assume they are going to want some money to release him.
https://twitter.com/CGRTeams/status/1546946366127087619
https://twitter.com/AlexPalou/status/1546996654343176192
https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/1546998384963248130
That's all a bit weird!
Interesting, Daniel also put out a statement today saying he was not leaving Mclaren.
https://twitter.com/danielricciardo/status/1547159313151655939
Definitely going then 👍
It's hard not to feel a little sorry for Daniel Ricciardo, his ability to find himself in the wrong car post-Red Bull is Alonsoesque.
Alonso would be ahead of his teammate though
Palou will just be a third driver type situation. Herta or Piastri would be far ahead in the queue
Palou will just be a third driver type situation. Herta or Piastri would be far ahead in the queue
Palou is reigning Indycar champ. His teammate is Scott Dixon, who is one of the all-time greats. He's clearly an extremely good driver. That doesn't mean he'll succeed in F1, but Piastri is just a youngster with promise, Palou has shown he can beat the world's best drivers in equal machinery.
he can beat the world’s best drivers
I thought we were talking about F1 here?
I would imagine Palou would be driving for Arrow McLaren SP and staying in IndyCar rather than moving to F1
https://www.mclaren.com/racing/team/indycar-champion-alex-palou-join-mclaren-racing-2023/
Alongside his racing duties next year, Palou will also test with the McLaren F1 Team as part of its 2021 MCL35M F1 car testing programme with fellow drivers Pato O’Ward and Colton Herta.
https://twitter.com/MsportXtra/status/1546883381014716416?s=20&t=rs6TR6IkaNKsLhokFkkbTA
If the F1 drivers looked like NASCAR drivers
Lecrec drops it’s again when he’d done all the hard work to keep Max behind.
Lovely move from Russell!! 🤣🤣
**** me that was a great race!
Yep - a good tactical race rather than one full of action. And Merc closing in on 2nd in the constructors!
Ferrari may need to put their focus on Sainz, but Ferrari just seem to find new ways of shooting themselves in the foot.
But Leclerc - he’s been making these mistakes for years now. It’s F2 level errors.
Both Ferrari and LeClerc don't deserve to win a championship this season. Only person there doing a half decent job is Sainz, but that's after lots of mistakes earlier on in the season.
its not just Leclerc making mistakes but there seems to have a media blackout about Perez restart. Its a shame about Leclerc but at least he acknowledges his own mistakes as opposed to whinging about the cars ahead of them. Quite embarassing attempt by Perez to sway the stewards moaning about how cars are off the white lines to rectify his mistake.
there seems to have a media blackout about Perez restart
Seems the FIA had a problem with the VSC system
https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-a-vsc-f1-system-failure-fooled-perez-out-of-a-podium/
LeClerc - shouted down the radio after the crash that he once again couldn't get the throttle to completely release and the graphic just before the crash supports this. It was stuck open at around 10% meaning he carried too much speed into the preceding corner, thus ending up on the kerb in the next corner.
This may again be just mechanical, not driver error.
T'was a pretty dull race.
LeClerc – shouted down the radio after the crash that he once again couldn’t get the throttle to completely release
That story has been debunked. After he crashed, he apparently tried to reverse out but shouted on the radio that he couldn't get ON the throttle, he was pressing the throttle but the engine wasn't responding. He said himself that he made a mistake and the crash was his fault. That's all it is, a simple driver error.
Edit: Beaten to it.
Ah - I didn't know this. I only watched the GP highlights this morning.
Seb leaving at the end of the season!
I'll be sad to see Seb go - perhaps his eco views have influenced things, or he can see Aston is going nowhere...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/vettel-stuns-f1-by-announcing-retirement-after-2022-season/
That's a shame, I would have liked to see him in a competitive car before he went, to complete his redemption arc.
Danny Rik to Aston then - I'm sure he'd love the challenge of another difficult car!
The guys has a shedload of money and a family.
He will make a lot of money out of F1 and be able to spend more time with them.
Why wouldn't he retire early?
Grown to like him over the last 5 years or so.
Seems like Porsche have bought 50% of Red Bull tech and engines...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/porsche-red-bull-buy-in-details/10344242/
Oops, bit late with that post.
Really? If only someone had told us ten minutes ago 😉
So, Ricciardo to AMR to replace Vettel and Piastri to McLaren?
I think that's fair enough, he hasn't looked like someone who had his heart fully in the sport for a while now. You can see that the less savoury side of F1 conflicts with his values too. As above,
it 's nice that he stuck around long enough to be a reinstated as a good guy though
It will be interesting to see who replaces him. I always thought that Lawrence Stroll wanted Vettel in there because he wantes the world to see his son beating a 4x champ
Seems like Porsche have bought 50% of Red Bull tech and engines…
This Porsche deal confuses me - not sure what they are getting engine-wise? As they're admitting they don't have the dyno's/tech needed to build their own engine.
I'd guess Honda still own the IP and Red Bull Powertrains use it under licence?
And there's strong rumours Honda are coming back as a works team again. Whatever the deal with Red Bull is I just can't see them giving over years and years of technical knowledge that Porsche can just walk away with.