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Brilliant drive from Max and Checo
Great overtake from Max in the sprint race,
Looking to be a great season ahead,
Fancy Max to retain his Title if the Car is reliable.
This certainly adds another layer to the "is Hamilton the best driver ever?" discussion.
I'm a Hamilton fan and he's a great driver but he's being outperformed by his relatively inexperienced team mate.
For most of his career he's had a car capable of contesting for the title and for several of those seasons he's had a car certain to win the title. Sure, he's returned seven championships and won a record number of races (although they race a lot more now than they used to) but the best ever? No way.
Russell is used to extracting the maximum from a shite car but Hamilton is mainly used to winning with the best car.
He was outscored by Button over 3 seasons at McLaren, don't forget, as well as beaten to the title by Rosberg.
If Vettel or Alonso had stepped into the Mercedes in 2014 maybe we'd be lauding them as the "best ever" by now.
The truth is - it's mostly the car. Sure, the best drivers earn the right to drive the best cars but it's the car that wins.
I don't think Hamilton's heart is in this season.
IMO the only reason he carried on is he felt wronged by the way last season ended. And I bet there were loads of promises from Merc about how great this years car would be.
If he'd won his 8th championship last year he wouldn't even be here.
Its in the media, Hamiltons car is being used to trial setups, Russell's is a bit more standardised. I'm not sure why Lewis would agree to that TBH.
We've seen Lewis being affect by mood before, remember how shit he became when splitting up with Scherzinger, then suddenly rose again after he put it all behind him. We also know that Drivers favour how a car drives and often the cars are built around the drivers to suit their style, and Lewis has admitted he does. not like driving this car.
But mostly this:
I don’t think Hamilton’s heart is in this season.
IMO the only reason he carried on is he felt wronged by the way last season ended. And I bet there were loads of promises from Merc about how great this years car would be.
If he’d won his 8th championship last year he wouldn’t even be here.
Fancy Max to retain his Title if the Car is reliable
Retain? I'd suggest, win it without having a ribbon tied around it .......?
certainly adds another layer to the “is Hamilton the best driver ever?” discussion.
he is without doubt the greatest. I don’t think one season will make any difference to that. I also don’t think it’ll be as easy for Max to win the DC as some posters on here seem to think
Hamilton’s ‘only’ 37 His still a baby
I approve of this statement.
Tom Howard - aged 37.
it’ll be as easy for Max to win the DC as some posters on here seem to think
I'd say he's had the DC in his pocket for a few years. Or do you mean the driver's championship rather than Crazy Dave in his tighty whiteys. #Ochaythenoomoth......
Retain? I’d suggest, win it without having a ribbon tied around it …….?
There’s a whole F1 2021 thread for that discussion. For this one having the #1 on the car = champion
I think that LeClerc learned a big lesson this weekend, making him possibly an even better prospect for the championship. I’m not seeing Ferrari running away with it though, especially as the RB is apparently dieting as I type this
I think that LeClerc learned a big lesson this weekend, making him possibly an even better prospect for the championship.
A lesson he should have learned years ago - he's prone to binning it when the pressure is on.
I'm not sure you can write off Hamilton, or start questioning his ability 4 races into the season.
In Australia, George Russell was lucky with the safety car to jump him & finish ahead.
Yesterday he got hampered on the pit exit by Ocon and then 2 cars got past (Gasly & Albon, I think). He couldn't overtake them, as they were in a DRS train & taking a risk off the dry line would probably be race ending.
I was surprised he didn't cut through the field a bit more effectively, but given his form for doing just that, I would assume it has more to do with the car than Hamilton's ability.
Ferraris starting to show the odd crack? Second DNF for Sainz, although this one was very unlucky compared to a mistake in the last race.
And LeClerc choosing that odd strategy near the end & then very lucky not to damage his car more significantly when he hooned it over that chicane! Hopefully the wake-up call that playing the long game will probably be more effective.
A lesson he should have learned years ago – he’s prone to binning it when the pressure is on.
With a 45 point gap (or whatever it was after the sprint, 43?) the only pressure was what he’d put on himself
I don’t think Hamilton’s heart is in this season
I agree, and after last year's shit show it's not hard to see why. It'll be interesting to see if he he's able to pick himself up again- if the car was more competitive then that would certainly help.
The comparison with Russell is a good one- he's never had it so good, so his enthusaism is carrying him up the grid. It's great to see, actually
For most of his career he’s had a car capable of contesting for the title and for several of those seasons he’s had a car certain to win the title. Sure, he’s returned seven championships and won a record number of races (although they race a lot more now than they used to) but the best ever? No way.
So are you saying that whoever it is you think is the "best ever" only won in crap cars?
For most of his career he’s had a car capable of contesting for the title...
And why's that, do you think? 🙂
I think yesterday's race was again one where Russell both drove very well and also got a bit of luck. He happened to be in the right place when Ricciardo and Sainz came together and then managed the rest of the race really well with some great driving. Hamilton was unlucky several times: Stuck in a DRS train and just when he had an opportunity to attack Gasley without DRS he had Max coming up behind him and a blue flag. Add to that his pit stop was messed up a bit which ended up sticking him back behind 2 drivers he would have otherwise been ahead of. Finally, watching the Merc car - it's got what appears to be the worst of the porpoising effects of any of the cars. The Ferrari seems to bounce maybe more but doesn't handle as badly with it. It was a chastening race for Hamilton but not sure there was an awful lot he could have done about it and it doesn't detract at all from his standing in the sport. IMHO
I’m wondering how different the set up is between the two Mercedes’ cars. Does Lewis go looking for an ‘edge’ that would give more performance, something that has possibly been the difference in previous years? Whereas George has a more conventional set up? I don’t know. I’m really pleased for Russell and how it’s working out for him.
Whilst I’m glad to see Williams having some form, I long for Latifi to go, they deserve better that him.
Its in the media, Hamiltons car is being used to trial setups, Russell’s is a bit more standardised. I’m not sure why Lewis would agree to that TBH.
To develop the car to suit him?
My guess is that Hamilton is trialling set-ups because he has much more experience at doing so; he's spent his time with Mercedes improving the car. Russell knows how to race, so let him be the reference set-up. Even though it's a new car, the Mercedes will still have a lot of characteristics that Hamilton knows well, and he will know what the side-effects of a potential tweak might be.
I asusme Hamilton knows that a safe setup like Russell isn't enough to be better than third best team on the grid(with no decent chance of catching those ahead) so he's willing to take setup risks to perhaps be in a position to win a race and solve the bigger issues. He's probably already thinking that best case scenario is a race win this season and not another title.
He was outscored by Button over 3 seasons at McLaren, don’t forget, as well as beaten to the title by Rosberg.
Another way of putting that is that in only two of the 16 seasons he’s raced has he been beaten by a teammate, which isn’t bad given that three of them were world champions themselves, all of whom were at their peak when paired with Hamilton.
I’ve not read any media stuff but I’d be a little surprised if Hamilton were persistently sacrificing himself for experiments. If there’s a pace difference between the cars then he’d surely be arguing for Russell to take his turn at being the lab rat, and in any case the pace of the two cars doesn’t seem far off: it’s in no small part that the last two races the cards have fallen better for George, who’s then played a blinding hand with them.
So are you saying that whoever it is you think is the “best ever” only won in crap cars?
No. Not at all.
Many people reckon Fangio was the greatest and he drove many marques. He was before my time though, as was Jim Clark.
I'm a Hamilton fan. He's probably the best driver if his era but, as I said, if Vettel or Alonso had been at Mercedes instead they'd probably have racked up the titles too.
I've watched F1 since the mid 70s and I'd say Senna & Schumacher are the best I've seen.
And why’s that, do you think? 🙂
Because he's very talented and, as I said, the best drivers usually gravitate towards the best cars.
But look at Jensen Button. How many seasons did he have the dominant car on the grid? One - and he got one world title. Sure, he had good cars at other points and won races too.
Sureher way of putting that is that in only two of the 16 seasons he’s raced has he been beaten by a teammate, which isn’t bad given that three of them were world champions themselves, all of whom were at their peak when paired with HamiltonS
Sure, that's all accurate but nobody's arguing that Rosberg or Button are the greatest ever.
Hamilton is one of the best ever but for many of those seasons he's had the best car on the grid. Often by a huge margin.
Hamilton was definitely unlucky in how things played out on Sunday, but how much different would his luck have been if he'd qualified in 11th instead of 13th?
Not disagreeing materially with any of what you’re saying—just illustrating that if someone wants to put a certain spin on the results then it’s quite easy to do so. On which note, don’t forget that Schumacher was also outscored over three seasons (and consistently so, rather than by one off-form season), by Rosberg… 😉
Sure, that’s all accurate but nobody’s arguing that Rosberg or Button are the greatest ever.
Hamilton is one of the best ever but for many of those seasons he’s had the best car on the grid.
I think they are both underrated.
The best drivers move to the teams with the best resources so the champion is nearly always driving the best car, or at least a very competitive one. Saying that one driver is the greatest ever is kinda silly because guys like Jim Clark and Jackie Steward did far fewer races and cars were much less reliable. It's impossible to compare results from back then with the sport now. Hamilton has equaled or broken nearly every record that matters and has beaten or equaled some very good teammates - he's had to fight his teammates for his titles rather than having team orders imposed. He's clearly one of the all-time greats, anyone who thinks he just got lucky is talking nonsense.
I think there’s a natural cognitive bias to associate greatness with drama. Schumacher and Senna were not only spectacular on track in dramatic races, but controversial in their ruthlessness: both deliberately crashed into their title rivals to claim one of their championships. And almost any driver from the 50s to the early 80s was inevitably associated with drama by the sheer lethality of the sport.
I’d suggest that it was Prost who was the first to be “undramatically” great, but while almost all armchair commentators will acknowledge that he was one of the greats, few will proactively cite him as such. I think Hamilton and Schumacher share a similar mix of traits that can be compared to both Senna’s raw prowess and to Prost’s methodical skills. But again, Schumacher was more dramatic in both regards, creating controversy on track and being part of the team that overhauled the most passion-fuelled team in the paddock. The same applies to less obvious examples, too: I suspect, for example, Jacques Villenuve would register above Button in most people’s gut-feel ranking, but I suspect it’s because he was more dramatic on track. Even Button’s arguably greatest day, the 2011 Canadian GP, was largely an exercise in everyone else having the drama. (Yes, I’m overlooking the collision with Hamilton.)
Part of Hamilton’s legacy, I think, is comparable to that of Lauda (who, despite being neither the fastest driver nor the most decorated, had a greatness that transcended racing): a level of dignity both on track and off that neither Senna nor Schumacher—for all their commendable traits when the red mist had cleared—managed to maintain consistently.
Of course, they’re all great drivers, as I’m sure most people here will agree. The issue is that, just as drivers from two eras are incomparable, so too are different flavours of greatness.
My favourite Hamilton stat is that he's the only driver who has won a race in every season he's competed in. Ever. In the history of the sport. When you let that sink in, it's actually very impressive.
That winning streak could be broken this season!
I think Button has always been over rated. His championship was won by the genius that is Ross Braun. He has such a big lead that he couldn’t be caught before the other teams could react to the cars performance. Once he lost the advantage the car gave him he struggled in the second half of the season
If Mercedes has got the car wrong and there is a current budget cap, how much could they really spend to bring a new baseline spec car?
I thought it was costly to damage wings let alone change the concept and other associated parts. The cost to make up the 1 second deficit probably isnt linear the higher the perfomrance gains.
I'm not convinced Mercedes or any other team would be able to make up the difference in this current environment.
The problem as Mercedes describe it is that they don't actually know what the problem is.
If they had a huge budget to redesign the car from scratch they wouldn't know what to do differently to fix the issue. Until they know what is really causing the problem, they don't know what they need to do to fix it.
Imagine going through the entire redesign and still having the same problem because when asked the same engineering questions you gave the same engineering answers without knowing which one was wrong.
Many people reckon Fangio was the greatest and he drove many marques.
Yes, he moved to the best teams as he saw them at the time, and they would accomodate him because they considered him the best driver.
My favourite Hamilton stat is that he’s the only driver who has won a race in every season he’s competed in. Ever.
That winning streak could be broken this season!
He’s not really competing this year. More just testing. 😉
The problem as Mercedes describe it is that they don’t actually know what the problem is.
If they had a huge budget to redesign the car from scratch they wouldn’t know what to do differently to fix the issue. Until they know what is really causing the problem, they don’t know what they need to do to fix it.
Imagine going through the entire redesign and still having the same problem because when asked the same engineering questions you gave the same engineering answers without knowing which one was wrong.
The porpoising isn't the only thing that's making the Merc slow. The Ferrari is also Porpoising badly. Neither team have brought any upgrades in so far as they're still trying to stop the porpoising from happening, before iterating from that baseline. The thing is, the Ferrari is still fast. Red Bull have to be concerned about this. It's a match for them, even with problems and without updates.
From what I gather the Merc bouncing is starting at a lower speed than the Ferrari and is affecting corner entry speed/car rotation. Lewis has said the car is like a viper and will strike back with no warning, so there’s no consistency to its turn in so they have to go slower to reduce the unpredictability. That affects driver confidence.
Merc aren’t too bad on the slower corners but the medium to high speed ones they are struggling hence the poor showing at Imola but better results in the street circuits.
There’s not one thing that when it’s fixed will make everything perfect but if they sort out the instability through the porpoising then I reckon their lap times will drop a fair bit, I just suppose no one knows how good the base car is without that problem - it may be the fastest car there without it, it might just be slightly better.
It’s not as if Merc are a cash strapped team, they’ve got some of the best people working on the car, so I would be very surprised if they stayed where they are all season. Obviously it will depend on what the other teams manage to do though. Upgrades are all well and good but they don’t always make things better so I reckon we are in for a varied season.
Is anyone else super chuffed to see KMag doing so well in a HAAS? I really like him.
Can I also say that I really really miss Kimi. Although I don’t think he misses us. 😂😂
It’s not as if Merc are a cash strapped team
But are working to the budget capping system like everyone else.
The current Haas situation (and hoping it continues) is currently the only thing making me want to watch DTS next year
I dug around last night to see if I could find out how (if at all) teams in the early 80's dealt with their porpoising issues, and it's not at all clear cut. Lots of the lower order teams just didn't understand the aerodynamics at all, and just copied the top teams -who it turns out, were often just doing things on a hunch themselves. The rules were changed before much work was done on it.
I suspect that in truth the aerodynamicists of the cars that don't suffer it probably only have a limited understanding as to why their cars don't either in simulation or now in real life. The Merc certainly didn't do this in it's simulations, and they've had to create a very complex model to get it to do it in the wind tunnel apparently. There's other issues going on as well, lots of the teams are struggling with cars that are well over the lower weight limit, the Merc especially, and like other teams Mercedes are struggling to get heat into the larger tyres.
I suspect that in truth the aerodynamicists of the cars that don’t suffer it probably only have a limited understanding as to why their cars don’t either in simulation or now in real life.
Apparently, there is a limit to how well ground effects can be simulated using CFD because the required computing power increases exponentially with proximity to the track surface. So, for example, if you halve the ride height, you need twice the computing power. That means that it's impossible to simulate the car touching the track surface. Plus, you can't allow a windtunnel model to touch the belt that they use to simulate the road surface or it will wreck the model and the belt. So, the only way to learn about the dynamics of it is to put it on track and work from there. Except, Merc got really clever and took an interim car to the first test meaning that they didn't know how bad their definitive car was until it was too late to do anything about it.
But are working to the budget capping system like everyone else.
Yes but that doesn’t mean the lower order teams spend to the limit. HAAS reckon there’s a £20m difference between top and bottom. Not as big a gap as previous years but still a gap.
nickc
Full MemberI dug around last night to see if I could find out how (if at all) teams in the early 80’s dealt with their porpoising issues, and it’s not at all clear cut. Lots of the lower order teams just didn’t understand the aerodynamics at all, and just copied the top teams -who it turns out, were often just doing things on a hunch themselves. The rules were changed before much work was done on it.
LMP1 cars had porpoising issues also fairly recently, I guess the problem would be that the suspension in F1 is now so restricted that I'm not sure how applicable the solutions would be.
Yup - the CFD isn't an easy nut to crack. Usually where you're looking at compressible flow, the model is fixed and flow is dynamic, but for the this situation both the model and the flow must move and the timesteps needed for each type of simulation (structural response of the floor and the aerodynamic response of the flow) are significantly out of sync, especially at the point of aerodynamic stall. Usually you'd calibrate the model with some wind-tunnel data, but as above - that's difficult to gather.
But are working to the budget capping system like everyone else.
Also, the big teams will have upgraded their facilities massively before the budget cap so that everything is state-of-the art. The smaller teams would not have been able to afford the level of equipment. It'll take a few years for that advantage to fade out.
Please someone tell me that they’re just having a boat show at the same time…
Audi and Porsche to enter Formula 1 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61300470
Big news- VW finally confirm they are entering F1, in two guises- Porsche is supplying engines to Red Bull, and Audi are planning to buy a team (maybe Williams? Or is Haas still for sale?)
My money’s on Sauber, they have (multiple) priors
Audi left the WEC because of the diesel emissions thing and they said they wanted to move their focus to electric. I know things change over time but I'd have liked them to go back to WEC for the new hyper car regulations.
F1 cars are already rear engined and (sort of) air cooled so VAG/Porsche should fit right in
I dug around last night to see if I could find out how (if at all) teams in the early 80’s dealt with their porpoising issues, and it’s not at all clear cut. Lots of the lower order teams just didn’t understand the aerodynamics at all, and just copied the top teams -who it turns out, were often just doing things on a hunch themselves.
I think tech was just a shitload less tech, ground effect in the eighties was a much blunter knife than it is now - the potential of, say, the Merc might be much greater but so is the sensitivety to set-up. Another thing that's changed is the tyre profile - one wonders if the big old balloon tyres helped, providing more give than the shiny new low profile things.
Didn’t the sliding skirts on old ground effect cars make the reduction as they rose less pronounced?
One solution to porpoising is to go back to active suspension, as was originally proposed as part of the rules package. That would enable precise control of ride height, but opens up a new development/spend area which would mean the cost cap gets pushed higher which isn't aligned with the strategic objectives of making F1 more 'affordable'.
Anyhow, Merc allegedly bringing some development bits to Miami which (they say) are the start of a fix to their issues, but not the whole shebang.
Quite a good video (for nerds) comparing the floors of the RB Ferrari and Merc.
One solution to porpoising is to go back to active suspension, as was originally proposed as part of the rules package. That would enable precise control of ride height, but opens up a new development/spend area which would mean the cost cap gets pushed higher
If teams were required to use a standard system, it would probably be cheaper than the current passive suspension because they wouldn't need to develop complex mechanical systems to isolate pitch, heave, and roll.
Tony Brooks died yesterday aged 90.
I'm way too young to have watched him race but one of the greats of his era
Heck of an innings but still really sad - a man with a really balanced perspective on life, and a great record too.
Who do we think will be quicker in Miami? I think Red Bull will have it over Ferrari.
Dear god I hope Mercedes have brought some updates cos that car looked shite and with the long straights in Miami it's going to be another bouncy weekend if they've not made any progress.
Dear god I hope Mercedes have brought some updates
New wing paint job
although I’m sure The Race will have an article on the proper changes when they appear
mashr
although I’m sure The Race will have an article on the proper changes when they appear
motorsport.it reckon its changed for lower drag and 3 kg weight reduction
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-mercedes-ala-anteriore-scarica-e-3-kg-di-leggerezza/10287593/
That’s more like it, first article is basically selling an NFT of the rear wing
mashr
Full MemberThat’s more like it, first article is basically selling an NFT of the rear wing
Yeah and just to clarify my shoddy grammar, that's 3kg off across the whole car, not just the front wing.
In other news the map has now been published, and there are 3 drs zones.
Here's a hot lap from the video game, the turns in the middle of S2 (00:45 ish) looks pretty mad. Just hope the slow corners don't cause the cars to spread out
For those who watch on NowTV - Sports is currently £20/month for x3 months. 👍
Best thing about Miami so far is Lando’s awesome basketball helmet
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2022/05/05/norris-unveils-basketball-themed-helmet-for-miami-gp/
I have a bit more sympathy for Max after hearing this. I knew Jos was a bit of a nasty prick, but FFS.
https://twitter.com/ESPNF1/status/1522214537486774275
"I was like, 'You know what, because I'm so quick, I'm just going to pass him and drive off into the distance'," says Max now, aged 24. "But when I went for the move, it was a bit of optimistic and we touched, and I retired.
"But I think that was good for me. Because the year after I think I was a lot better at judging my overtakes and the way I was approaching a race knowing that it's not about this one lap, there are more laps to pass. If you're really quicker, you will get by."It was a hard lesson. But I think it was a good one at the end."
Show's he's learnt absolutely nothing since that day! Still F1's finest crash-bang-wallop overtaker.
And if his Dad is such a prize-cock, there's no reason for him to carry on the family tradition.
Max Verstappen recalls when his father Jos left him at a gas station after a karting mistake at 14 years old
I often wonder if Max is carrying around a lot more trauma than he lets on
And if his Dad is such a prize-cock,
I don't think there's "if" in that debate. a quick google of Jos (and his father) will reveal what a nice guy he is
Oof, carlos cracked his head on the fence quite badly
https://twitter.com/Dagues_/status/1522376669746585601
https://twitter.com/Dagues_/status/1522375788846526464
Ouch!
That's the sort of stupid crap that I do..... I thought these guys would have more spatial awareness than me!
Sum's up Sainz season so far! 😬😬
Sum’s up Sainz season so far!
Harsh but fair.
Have we done Seb appearing on Question Time next week?
Vettel on QT
Hmmm - F1 buying real-estate now. The start of them trying to control the whole show?...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-pays-240m-to-acquire-city-site-for-las-vegas-paddock/10297435/
I wonder if Zak Brown will be rocking this look!? 🤔
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^ reported for posting Corden
FP1 in 5mins - Latifi in the wall in 20mins!? 🤔🤔