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A Saturday night F1 race on a street circuit in Vegas? So many wrong things in one sentence there. We've got fantastic circuits around the world in countries where there is a good F1 fan base, but instead they opt to sick a third race in the USA. Not impressed, but maybe I'm tainted by memories of the Caesar's Palace car park fiasco.
As for DRS - IMO it needs recalibrating for the new cars. The original idea was that it would give following drivers a chance to challenge for position by the end of the straight, not to sail by before they're half way down it. So use a shorter DRS zone and move the detection line so it's on corner exit rather than entry - if they can follow closer through the corner there's no need to have on entry any more. And maybe remind drivers of the rule that says "drivers must not drive erratically" so someone locking up to avoid crossing the DRS detection line first can be penalised.
Night race in Las Vegas - well that's most of Europe who won't be watching it live due to the time difference.
Vegas street circuit looks pap IMO, I'd like to see some US circuits getting used used though like Laguna Seca for example
Trouble is, we're going to be seeing more and more tracks like Vegas I fear. For all it's criticism, there's no denying the 2 races in Jeddah have been more action packed than a lot of GPs on regular circuits, and Baku and Singapore often throw up a crazy race too. Kind of feel like F1 is going down a similar route to WC DH now I think about, it's all single line, flat out blast stuff designed to look impressive on screen. Classic tracks like Laguna Seca, Kyalami etc are not going to fit that brief.
Kind of feel like F1 is going down a similar route to WC DH now I think about
Feels more like the route Formula E went down to me
like Laguna Seca for example
It would be quite a good F1 circuit, but it's very short, It's only a bit longer than Monaco (I think) the capacity is teeny and it's pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I'm not sure F1 would be keen to go there
I think about, it’s all single line, flat out blast stuff designed to look impressive on screen.
I'd agree that some of the Tilke designed circuits are pretty cookie cutter layouts, there's still quite a bit of veriety in the circuits thtey do use. Zandvoort was fun last year, the very high speed stuff like Sliverstone and Monza are wildly different to the part time circuits like Montreal and Melbourne, and you can't really not have some circuits like Sao Paulo and Spa, which are really unlike anything else
With street curcuits it’s pretty easy for F1 to organise - local government say ok then you just ship in all the barriers/lights/pit buildings that you need and it’s good to go.
With an already established track you’ll have to negotiate a deal with the track and they are going to have to bring it up to F1 standards for the surface, runoffs, barriers pits etc etc.
I don’t think that having a circuit already there is much of a benefit if the F1 circus wants to come to town.
nickc
It would be quite a good F1 circuit, but it’s very short, It’s only a bit longer than Monaco (I think) the capacity is teeny and it’s pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I’m not sure F1 would be keen to go there
Well it's nowhere near meeting the circuit requirements, but exceptions can be made (see also: Monaco).
However Grosjean was asked about it and he said the corkscrew would smash the cars up. Could be a chance for Merc redemption with their raised ride height though? 🙂
Track safety standards are just an excuse IMHO. If Monaco with its 2 inch run off areas and a pit lane that would be banned anywhere else shows that the standards are just a meaningless joke
If Monaco with its 2 inch run off areas and a pit lane that would be banned anywhere else shows that the standards are just a meaningless joke
Monaco is in there for historical (and financial) reasons. It's given special treatment, any other circuit would be required to address the safety concerns. That's impossible for Monaco, so it's either race as it is or stop racing there entirely.
Monaco is also the slowest track in the series
That’s impossible for Monaco, so it’s either race as it is or stop racing there entirely
I'd happily see Monaco binned, it's always so boring.
I’d happily see Monaco binned, it’s always so boring.
Qualifying is good. Make it the F1 equivalent of a time trial. Each driver gets 7 consecutive laps. Their total time determines the classification. Every car, flat out for 7 laps. There's no overtaking in Monaco anyway, so just formalise it and remove the problem of the lead driver dictating the pace.
I’d like to see some US circuits getting used used though like Laguna Seca for example
Unfortunately its never going to happen.
Its been dropped off the MotoGP calendar due to the facilities, so its never going to make the F1 standard.
With street curcuits it’s pretty easy for F1 to organise – local government say ok then you just ship in all the barriers/lights/pit buildings that you need and it’s good to go.
With an already established track you’ll have to negotiate a deal with the track and they are going to have to bring it up to F1 standards for the surface, runoffs, barriers pits etc etc.
But this is where half the issue is.
We have a new purpose built "street" circuit like Jeddah which is questionable on safety grounds, but historic tracks like Spa have to spend millions to bring them up to standard.
Seems like a two tier system.
A Saturday night F1 race on a street circuit in Vegas? So many wrong things in one sentence there. We’ve got fantastic circuits around the world in countries where there is a good F1 fan base, but instead they opt to sick a third race in the USA. Not impressed, but maybe I’m tainted by memories of the Caesar’s Palace car park fiasco
-8 hours (9 from mainland Europe) so you can imagine a midnight start to get the timings to work.
Totally with you about another "car park" track, such as Miami. So many good circuits to use without creating these mickey mouse ones.
As long as they dont touch the 4 historic ones (Silverstone, Spa, Monza, Monaco*) then they can rotate the others to wherever they want.
*Yes I know Monaco is an awful race.
Daffy
Full Member
Make it the F1 equivalent of a time trial. Each driver gets 7 consecutive laps. Their total time determines the classification. Every car, flat out for 7 laps. There’s no overtaking in Monaco anyway, so just formalise it and remove the problem of the lead driver dictating the pace.
Everyone hated single car qualifying, single car racing isn't going to fly
I like Monaco! 🙂
I’d happily see Monaco binned, it’s always so boring.
It's quite good fun in the wet, but I think the last wet race there was in 2017? it's always pretty dull when it's sunny though
Monaco, though, innit.
Everyone hated single car qualifying, single car racing isn’t going to fly
Monaco is single car racing. The lead car dictates the pace and no-one can overtake especially with these hybrid cars where they can deploy more energy when required to defend.
I'd rather see 140 laps flat out, driver vs. circuit than 70-80 laps of follow the leader at a slow pace.
Monaco is single car racing. ...
...I’d rather see 140 laps flat out, driver vs. circuit than 70-80 laps of follow the leader at a slow pace.
No, its not. You've still got a full field to watch, even if they aren't doing anything. A time trial would end up competing with watching paint dry in the ratings battle
No, its not. You’ve still got a full field to watch, even if they aren’t doing anything. A time trial would end up competing with watching paint dry in the ratings battle
You’ve just described the typical Monaco race. We all know its about money and nothing to do with history or racing.
Yup, I’m not saying it’s not all about money. Just that having only 1 car on track at a time would make it a far bigger turn off for most people
We all know its about money and nothing to do with history or racing
Its not though.
Monaco pays the lowest amount to hold a race
https://racingnews365.com/how-much-each-circuit-on-the-calendar-pays-to-formula-1
Monaco is the showcase event - it's where F1 wines and dines the wealthy, current and future sponsors. You can't look at it logically, it's more than a race to all involved in F1.
Money from sponsors and the like rather than the venue
One of the benefits of Covid was in bringing back proper circuits to the calendar: Portimao, Imola, Mugello… I’m not one for street circuits: they just feel contrived, not to mention the tendency for red flags and safety cars when people Latifi inevitably bins it.
Putting DRS activation lines on corner exit might be quite a reasonable idea, because you won’t get any of that stupid squabbling over who gets there first. Who wants to watch a race where two drivers are fighting to be last through a corner? I’ve no idea why lots of commentators seem to be celebrating that as great racing; I thought it was just embarrassing for the sport.
It's OK in track cycling though...
Who wants to watch a race where two drivers are fighting to be last through a corner?
You probably know the "slow race" bike training technique, where you have to ride down a hill without touching a foot to the ground, the slowest time wins. Excellent for novices learning basic balance and coordination. Strange to be posting this in a thread about a sport where professional athletes compete to be the fastest on the planet.
Ironically the slow bike race is, IIRC, the only actual race of any kind that I’ve ever won. (School sports day, circa 1984.)
Brilliant, it had me going for a bit there🤣
Isn't the problem with F1 circuits that they are very specialised, a modern F1 circuit that creates good racing isn't going to be a good Moto GP or touring car circuit. Brands hatch is great for touring cars and motorbikes but I can't imagine it would be any good for F1 as there's barely a decent long straight. Same for Donington
I dont watch much F1 these days but the only tracks I'd go out of my way to watch are Spa and Suzuka.
The Portuguese GP was brilliant last year, I'd love that to return to the calendar permanently.
lol just seen that they are having 4 drs zones in Melbourne? Or is that an April fools timezone goof on my part?!
https://www.formula1.com/en/racing/2022/Australia/Circuit.html
multi21
lol just seen that they are having 4 drs zones in Melbourne? Or is that an April fools timezone goof on my part?!
I think that's correct. There's 2 detection zones & then 4 DRS zones.
The F1 website map shows 2 detection zones & I guess the green areas on the diagram are DRS zones.
Looks like a lot of the track although no idea on scale of that map.
Looks like a lot of the track although no idea on scale of that map.
I read somewhere its over 40% of the track. Something over 2km of a 5km track.
They're trying everything to make it a more interesting race - major layout changes this year that are estimated to be 4-5s a lap quicker than the old track, and hopefully improved passing opportunities thanks to the layout allowing a bit more line choice through key corners. Chucking 4 DRS zones onto it as well seems a little desperate, and I'll bet at least 50p that there's more shenanigins at the second detection line.
That must make setup much easier for the teams. Wack the car into high downforce configuration for the twisty bits knowing that DRS will allow them to switch to low downforce mode for all the straights.
It's all going a bit too far towards Playstation racing for my tastes. But I suppose us old farts who've watched F1 for 35+ years aren't target market anymore.
As someone said on twitter yesterday, it'll be nice to see an F1 race in daylight this weekend! 🙂
and I’ll bet at least 50p that there’s more shenanigins at the second detection line.
That may not be a bad thing to be honest. F1 should be a tactical race
That's not tactics though - it's pissing around in a braking zone.
Mleh, splitting hairs. Right now Verstappen and Leclerc are "pleased with self" about both using it to gain an advantage in the first couple of races , but crucially both have been seconds away from 3rd place. In a tighter battle this sort of playing with the regs is going to see 3rd, 4th etc place drivers looking to take advantage.
All leads to tighter racing, It's what everybody wanted.
Also, I hear Albert park has been resurfaced, according to some folks; although it looks smooth, it's pretty abrasive. Should see some pretty high tyre wear if the overtaking starts hotting up.
Wonder if Merc will have managed to make any improvements?
I guess the new Melbourne track will be pretty similar to Jeddah in terms of a lot of high speed straights and corners.
I mentioned the DRS change a page back, but there have also been a lot of other changes
I just don't like to see drivers slamming the anchors on to avoid being ahead at the DRS line. Looks sad and comical.
Drivers will of course use any tools they have at their disposal - but like I say I'm probably not target market anymore.
And what's going on with the tyres? This years were meant to suffer less from deg, but it seems the same if not worse.
Cars look fat and lardy too! 🙂
...(dusts of string-back driving gloves, dons trilby and heads of to the Silverstone Classic!)
#notasgoodasitwasinmyday
I just don’t like to see drivers slamming the anchors on to avoid being ahead at the DRS line. Looks sad and comical.
Sure, but they're not going to be doing that if Sainz or Perez (or someone else) is going to sail up the inside and take advantage of them not paying attention to what's going on around them.
Wonder if Merc will have managed to make any improvements?
I'm sure they would have been burning the midnight oil trying to figure it out - it will be interesting to see.
Wonder if Merc will have managed to make any improvements?
I'd be surprised if there's a big improvement, bar Hamilton reversing his setup approach to match Russell's. Bigger advanced in the first European races maybe more likely? Unfortunately everyone else will be doing the same
Thought I read recently that Merc have a number of upgrades they are bringing to Melbourne this weekend so I am expecting something better from them. They need to do something quickly to avoid the season running away from them hence not being surprised if they have brought some of those planned upgrades forward to Australia.
That must make setup much easier for the teams. Wack the car into high downforce configuration for the twisty bits knowing that DRS will allow them to switch to low downforce mode for all the straights.
Doesn’t really work unless you’re planning on always been within a second of the car in front. And generally the goal is to be the one in front 😉
At the moment we’re still seeing teams whoosh porpoising issues are constraining their downforce setups—or at least how they achieve a given amount of it. Those who have got on top of porpoising can maximise downforce from the floor; those who haven’t are having to compromise the ground effect and replace it with rear wing, which adds drag. Mercedes are supposedly bringing a new compromise on the rear wing this weekend but may have a fundamental issue with the floor that needs to be resolved before they can make more comfortable setup choices like Ferrari and Red Bull.
(whoosh —> whose)
Just another rehashing of the annual "VW/Audi/Porsche to enter F1" story, or is there actually something in it this time?
Wonder if Merc will have managed to make any improvements?
Looks like...no 🙁
Looks like…no
AFAIK they had nothing new to declare at the FIA "show and tell" session - I'd always assumed F1 was a relentless cycle of development being tried at every race.
I’d always assumed F1 was a relentless cycle of development being tried at every race.
It used to be, but in this cost-cap era they can't just chuck money at the problems anymore.
Nice to see McLaren making progress though.
thepurist
AFAIK they had nothing new to declare at the FIA “show and tell” session – I’d always assumed F1 was a relentless cycle of development being tried at every race.
Damn, nothing at all, that's not ideal. Do they have to declare all their upgrades?
Here is what everybought brought:
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1512228864759513089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1512228864759513089%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
Doesn't mean to say they haven't been hammering CFD and simulator programmes to try and optimise what they currently have. Better to bring a decent upgrade that works at Imola than tinker around the edges in Oz.
First practice would seem to suggest they haven’t made a huge improvement
nickc
Full MemberFirst practice would seem to suggest they haven’t made a huge improvement
Hamilton looks completely dejected now about it. The onboards look effing terrible, the steering wheel bouncing all over the place while cornering.
Sainz' helmet cam looked bad on the straight as well, it's on the highlights vid @ 1:22:
Maybe Mercedes think their lack of pace is set up related rather than a fundamental flaw in design?
Or they just fundamentally don't understand how to fix it so their is no point throwing parts at it until they do.
Its a long season, I wouldn't write them off yet, especially as if there will be three top teams taking points off each other.
Be nice if we had Ferrari, Red Bull (well Perez!), Merc and McLaren fighting for wins by mid-season.
richmtb
Full MemberMaybe Mercedes think their lack of pace is set up related rather than a fundamental flaw in design?
Or they just fundamentally don’t understand how to fix it so their is no point throwing parts at it until they do.
Its a long season, I wouldn’t write them off yet, especially as if there will be three top teams taking points off each other.
Posted 6 minutes ago
Yeah one of the team bosses (Horner I think) was being interviewed recently saying that the cost cap is making it much more important to bring working parts, you can no longer bring a bunch of new parts to each race and do trial and error, it's just too expensive.
Maybe Mercedes think their lack of pace is set up related rather than a fundamental flaw in design?
Perhaps so, but these cars are so sensitive to change that once the designed is optimised and "settled" if it doesn't work as intended, it difficult, if not impossible to isolate one element and not have that fundamentally change everything else via unintended consequences. The porpoising can be "simply" cured by raising the ride height, but if that effects the rest of design so badly it's not worth doing, you're into stuff like stiffening the suspension (which in turn upsets the handling in different ways) or taking great chunks of rear wing off.
Hamilton looks completely dejected now about it.
I asked a few pages back who the Mercedes reserve drivers were. I hope they're keeping fit and sharp.
In his interview Hamilton said something along the lines of "nothing we change on the setup makes any difference". Sounding like Merc don't understand the problem yet.
Wondering if they'll shitcan this philosophy mid-season and bring a b-spec closer to the design of the ferrari or rb.
Car looks nasty to drive though, look at the steering wheel
https://streamable.com/vt8i4e
Just as well nobody is using the cycle lane.
Sainz’ helmet cam looked bad on the straight as well, it’s on the highlights vid @ 1:22:
Looked even worse on the Sainz fastest lap video.
Car looks nasty to drive though, look at the steering wheel
I assume that is a result of the significantly bigger wheels this season?
lol Vettel got fined £5K for borrowing the marshalls scooter and going for a lap of the circuit
lol Vettel got fined £5K for borrowing the marshalls scooter and going for a lap of the circuit
This is amazing!!
Best 5K he's spent I bet. Look at the amount of coverage he's (and his sponsors are) getting from that! Plus waving to all the crowds is sure to up the feel-good factor of the weekend for the fans...
What are the odds that that'll be reimbursed by teh team? Driver wages are not part of the salary cap, after all....
Are Red Bull appealing against his extra track time allowance yet?
For several years, I thought Vettel was a really whiny spoilt little brat but since he's moved to AM he seems a lot more relaxed and he's done some good things - that Women's karting race he helped to put on, litter picking in the stands post-race, shots of him cycling to one of the races last season (in the rain!). He now seems like quite a nice guy.
For several years, I thought Vettel was a really whiny spoilt little brat but since he’s moved to AM he seems a lot more relaxed and he’s done some good things
Yes, I think the Red Bull and Ferrari environments were toxic. I never thought I would say this, but he comes across as a really likeable guy now. Good for him.
Mercedes won't be upgrading anything until they understand how to fix the porpoising. Once they get that, the aero package on the car will be stable and you can work on improving it. You don't make changes until your baseline is fixed. It's a long season and they'll be keeping their powder dry.
Yes, I think the Red Bull and Ferrari environments were toxic. I never thought I would say this, but he comes across as a really likeable guy now. Good for him.
I wonder whether anyone will say the same about Verstappen in a couple of years time 😉
Yes, I think the Red Bull and Ferrari environments were toxic. I never thought I would say this, but he comes across as a really likeable guy now. Good for him.
Totally agree. The days of Multi 21 and the Baku sideswipe seem quite distant.
Though to be fair, there’s probably some correlation with the fact that so do his chances of contesting the title 😉