I’ve never understood that rule. If you develop a really powerful engine that’sa bit temperamental you can upgrade it to make it more reliable. But if you engine works properly you can’t upgrade it to make it more powerful. Seems a very strange way of operating to me
I don't think that's the situation here. There's a low-pressure fuel pump that's an FIA spec part (same for all teams) that is failing. All the teams had them inspected under parc ferme before the race, some were swapped. Suggestion is the electronics for it is breaking down. E10 fuel?
It’s just sport, watch, or don’t watch it’s your choice but why not keep the personal stuff out of it?
But sport is by its very nature tribal. Fans of one team/player will cheer their wins and jeer at the other's losses. It's just the nature of the beast. Sometimes that jeering is just them being 'the opposition' and anyone other than your own team is the bad guy. Sometime there are longer running reasons, deep seated divisions between groups of fans that go back years.
Horner used to be the fresh face on the block, leading RedBull as the 'fun team' with bangin tunes in the garage and a proper party after a win. I think the changes in my perception of him started when he was sticking the knife in to Renault and he's continued to play the 'victim' role quite often. Ferrari and McLaren have both been through a hell of a time while this was going on and neither of them have sunk to the same depths - McLaren's handling of Honda (yes, even with the 'GP2 Engine' stuff from Alonso) was miles more professional than Horner's. So nothing very Daily Mail, just an opinion formed of the man from what I have seen of his behaviour (which, as a C4 F1 watcher is PLENTY).
Toto's no saint for sure, but based on what I've seen of him I'd rather work with/for him than Horner any day of the week.
I think Max proved yesterday with his radio comments that his new found status as F1 champ really hasn't chilled him one jot.
He'll be under even more pressure this year to prove he's a real champion and we'll see a lot more of that.
Banging race and entertaining even just watching the C4 highlights. So glad to see Ferrari back in the fight and smirked (tribal loyalty SturdyLad) when Mercedes got the next two places but did feel sorry for the way RB failed so close tot he end.
My biggest annoyance is that Ferrari have gone back to the dark red which is almost the colour I am having my Barchetta resprayed next month and everyone will assume I am a BIG Ferrari fan instead of just a closet one. I chose the colour based on the Maserati 300 & 450s that were that colour when racing.
I can well understand why Max would've lost his composure after his fuel system failed three laps from the end, I can't blame him for that.
Spare a thought for McLaren, with both drivers finishing 14th and 15th respectively. The MCL36 simply didn't have qualifying or race pace and I doubt that any deficiency is going to be properly addressed any time soon. All the Mercedes engined teams seemed to struggle yesterday, Williams and Aston Martin were equally lame, which might suggest that the problem is due to the powerplant itself. Even then, both Stroll and Albon finished in front of the McLarens.
I doubt it's the Mercedes engine. They were only 4/10ths off in qualy and they've had to significantly increase their wing generated downforce due to having to run the car higher to stop the porpoising. If they get the floor sorted, you'll see a decent leap in Mercedes performance which would put them at least on par with RB/Ferrari. But RB and Ferrari won't be standing still. whilst Mercedes fix their car, the others will be developing theirs...
Were there big changes to the engines this year? So much has been about the aero changes that I've not even seen the engines mentioned.
I'm sorry for Perez that he wasn't able to finish. But for Verstappen, Horner & Red Bull on the whole? Nope. Sorry, no shits given there.
In fact I wasn't going to drink last night as I had an early morning workout to contend with today, but decided to throw caution to the wind & had a celebratory beer.
Overall, I thought it was a great season opener. A shame not to have Vettel there & also a shame that Williams don't seem to have made much of a step-forward & McLaren seem to have taken a significant step backwards. The racing looked a lot closer & I am hoping for some great races throughout the season.
Were there big changes to the engines this year? So much has been about the aero changes that I’ve not even seen the engines mentioned.
No major changes in the regs, but the engine spec was frozen at the start of the season for the next 4 years so teams were chucking everything at improving them before the freeze came into effect.
They also have to be modified to work with E10 fuel.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-forced-into-daring-design-solutions-with-f1-engine/
The MCL36 simply didn’t have qualifying or race pace and I doubt that any deficiency is going to be properly addressed any time soon.
They looked fairly decent in the first test, their car seemed to be least affected by porpoising. They miscalculated how much brake cooling would be needed so they had overheating in the warmer temperatures of the second test and the first race. Brake ducts have a major effect on the aerodynamics so they will need some wind tunnel time to optimize the new ones. Once they've done that, I think they'll have a decent mid-field car.
Mercedes had to raise the ride height to deal with porpoising so they lost a lot of downforce and suffered tyre wear issues. It's safe to assume that they will get on top of that issue eventually, it's just a matter of when. The pace of development of the cars will be rapid this year so the pecking order after the summer break may be nothing like at the moment.
I think yesterday was the first time since I started following F1 in the mid-90s that I've ever wanted Ferrari to win a race so badly. I'm not particularily a fan of Leclerc either but that's mostly down to his association with Ferrari. But man did I want him to beat Verstappen yeaterday! In a way I was a bit sad that Red Bull had to retire both cars because I wanted to see Verstappen beaten fairly on the track, which up until that point he really had been.
As a McLaren fan though that was just painful. Really hope that brake cooling improvements allow them find find a considerable chuck of speed otherwise this is going to be a long and painful season for them/me.
I don't really mind who wins it this year as long as it's not Verstappen. That smug grin he has just makes me want to punch him. It's worse than Schumachers.
As a McLaren fan though that was just painful.
On the bright side, they are leading Red Bull in the constructors championship, equal on points, ahead on best placed finish.
I think Max proved yesterday with his radio comments
Have you heard Hamilton on the radio to his pit at all?
I’m sorry for Perez that he wasn’t able to finish. But for Verstappen, Horner & Red Bull on the whole? Nope. Sorry, no shits given there.
In fact I wasn’t going to drink last night as I had an early morning workout to contend with today, but decided to throw caution to the wind & had a celebratory beer.
Me too. My wife and I cheered and howled with laughter when MV went out. I can’t stand him, never have done. No class, dodgy driving masquerading as “tough”, nasty to everyone who doesn’t toady to him, no understanding of his own failures.
I couldn’t give a rats ass about being non partisan. My only wish is for MV to fail at every race and Lewis to go sailing by and wave as MV plummets to the bottom of the championship standings drowning in a shallow pool of his own angry spittle, then get banned for assaulting someone at a race like he has done before and following on the tradition of his dad (who I remember when he was in F1) and his grandad.
All while Whinger Spice sobs into a crumpled red bull can, to eventually be fired from F1 to lead the Red Bull Extreme Ironing team.
I’ve been watching F1 for more than 40 years and have never seen a team act so childishly, they are a true snowflake of a team. I just want them to fail now.
We actually applauded Ferrari winning as they ran a perfect race, couldn’t fault the team or the drivers and it was so good to see CLC outclass MV. Brilliant drive and a deserved win.
I was also SUPER chuffed to see HAAS do so well - wow! I just want to see GS smile (and probably swear a lot but in excitement rather than frustration!!).
Have you heard Hamilton on the radio to his pit at all?
Hamilton doesn’t swear and stamp his feet like a teenager denied the latest iPhone purchase by his parents.
Apparently the change to E10 is far from trivial from an IC perspective - it has meant an awful lot of work from the PU guys. These engines aren’t like road cars that will run on any old crap, they are specifically tailored to the petrol they are provided by their chosen supplier.
In particular it has meant the engines running much warmer, particularly on low fuel loads. Don’t understand the technical reasons behind it but then I am not an F1 PU designer 🙂 . Even say the Ferrari engine which runs on on Shell would run sub-optimally on Petronas juice so closely do the teams work with their oil guys.
I am sure RB will get to the bottom of it all but hopefully not for another couple of races. Would be great to see Ferrari build a bit of a lead then Merc and RB come back at them…
I think Max proved yesterday with his radio comments
Have you heard Hamilton on the radio to his pit at all?
F1 Insights on YouTube is good for full pit radio...
In particular it has meant the engines running much warmer, particularly on low fuel loads. Don’t understand the technical reasons behind it but then I am not an F1 PU designer
As the fuel tank is emptied, the fuel moves around more.
There are baffles in the tank, but under the extreme loads theres only so much you can do.
The more the fuel moves, the hotter it gets and it vaporises, and causes issues with the fuel pumps.
E10 fuel makes this issue bigger.
Other teams found this out in testing, by doing long simulations and running the tanks to empty. They found the issues and put in solutions.
RedBull didnt and got caught out.
Hamilton doesn’t swear and stamp his feet like a teenager denied the latest iPhone purchase by his parents.
Hmmm, Drive to Survive would suggest otherwise! But still not as petulant as MV
Other teams found this out in testing, by doing long simulations and running the tanks to empty. They found the issues and put in solutions.
RedBull didnt and got caught out.
That's not what Marko says
Let’s guess - he blames someone else?
Who the chuff is Helmut Marco anyway? He’s like some weird ghoul that hangs around the pits stoking up the Red Bull whining fire whenever he’s bored.
Hmmm, Drive to Survive would suggest otherwise! But still not as petulant as MV
LH does have an annoying habit of questioning the strategy after it's been executed. I wonder how many other drivers are like that or if we're just getting edited highlights broadcast. That said, it's not the first time they've had whining radio calls of drivers asking why so-and-so is now in front of them or why the gap has grown
I thought the fuel tanks were all foam filled so the can rupture and leak fuel everywhere in an accident
Let’s guess – he blames someone else?
Tbf he didn't...just said "they'd tested down to 1 litre left in the tank so something must have broken"
What I've read is there is actually an ongoing issue with one of the 3 fuel pumps - breakdown of the electronics with a cracked housing that all the teams were aware of. Which doesn't sound like a fuel evaporation issue?
Who the chuff is Helmut Marco anyway? He’s like some weird ghoul that hangs around the pits stoking up the Red Bull whining fire whenever he’s bored.
Seventies not-terribly-succesful F1 racer and fair-play Le Mans winner, full-time miserable one-eyed shitbag.
😂😂😂😂
Just watching Indycar race from yesterday and I can’t say I’ve ever seen one porpoising in all the years they’ve used ground effect. They’re planted on the super speedways - perhaps Merc need to get on the phone to Dallara and have a word with their aero department!
To be fair, it used to happen a bit back when they first done ground effect in the Seventies, I have memories of Ferrari 126s bouncing around like heck. 🙂 Different kind of downforce, innit - all of a sudden, the cars are way more sensitive to ground clearence.
This is getting silly. I don't see how the teams could manage 30 races unless they did 10 triple headers with a one week break in between. Surely they would need a big hike in the budget cap to cover all the extra costs, including extra staff. I think they would really need two pit crews who would alternate race weekends.
https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1506545030609223691
x30 Races a year!!
I'd need to employ a divorce lawyer! 🙂
It's F1 not ruddy NASCAR.
Yeah, I remember reading an interview with Richard Petty back when Prost broke the world record for the number of wins, I think it was 27 back then. Petty said, "I won 27 races in one year."
They’re planted on the super speedways
yeah, but on road tracks they bounce around like those penny rides outside supermarkets
I just watched a YouTube video where the summary of Merc is basically that the porpoising is the main issue for them which is knocking them back on the straights. The twisty parts are fine, their times are up with the best times.
They will have to look at their aero and make a decision on how much to compromise it to stop the bouncing. If they compromise it too much it’ll make them slower in the corners. Apparently Aston Martin have completely sorted the porpoising but gone too far the other way and their cornering speed is poor. A happy medium is needed
The development curve is very steep at the moment and I think we will see quite a few changes very quickly so it could all change round for the next race.
Merc will be good on a smooth twisty circuit so they have to think of making changes later on might be better for them if the next track suits their current set up better BUT it’s a big risk especially with little testing available.
I'm sure I read that someone from Merc said they're only happy with fast cornering performance. Straightline speed = a problem, at least partly due to porpoising. Slow corners, also a problem because they have had to raise the ride height much more than they wanted (so there's insufficient downforce). On faster corners they might be competitive.
But I guess they'll be changing / testing a lot so hopefully that balance will change. A 3-way Ferarri / RB / Merc fight would be great!
Mercedes seem to have a habit of building a car which takes a fundamentally good direction but which doesn’t initially achieve its full potential. I’m expecting them to get the aero and suspension in the sweet spot within a few races, but the apparent performance swing between the Mercedes and Ferrari powered cars up and down the grid is ominous: if Merc have dropped the ball on the PU front then they’re in real trouble.
Or maybe Ferrari have pulled a fast one.... They have previous obvs!
Personally I'd rather see them at the front than RB any day.
I’m sure I read that someone from Merc said they’re only happy with fast cornering performance. Straightline speed = a problem, at least partly due to porpoising. Slow corners, also a problem because they have had to raise the ride height much more than they wanted (so there’s insufficient downforce). On faster corners they might be competitive.
But I guess they’ll be changing / testing a lot so hopefully that balance will change. A 3-way Ferarri / RB / Merc fight would be great!
Another issue that mercedes are fighting with is excessive drag on the straights, not due to porpoising, but due to the sidepods. I know it sounds weird when you look at their car with its nearly non-existent side pods and you assume it has less drag, but a consequence of that is it directs a lot of turbulent air straight onto the rear tires, causing significant drag.
This is also one of the reasons why ferrari are so fast at the moment - their sidepods are the largest on the grid and so it pushes the turbulent air away from the wheels and reduces drag on the straights.
LOL - Mercedes literally cutting the top of the rear wing away! 🙂
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1506985988953939970?cxt=HHwWhIC5kbnx8ekpAAAA
Someone in the Petronas marketing team is having a fit right now
That thumb wont help with the aero.
Trust that the rear wing won't fall foul of the regs. Karen will be bleating about it already.
what you say makes sense, but if it wasn’t for reduced drag, do you know why they reduced the side pods to such a degree?
@LAT, as an uneducated guess, I would think it could be that downforce gains would be so great that they could run a smaller rear wing to reduce the drag, which could then maybe reduce the slipstream effect of the car behind? Plus, the bad tyre wake would potentially also make it more difficult to follow the Merc, as I know some teams questioned it in terms of the "spirit" of the regulations of helping the cars follow each other better.
again makes sense. im surprised it’s gone so badly wrong.
i can’t help thinking that horner’s protests were silenced by red bull when their aerodynamicists worked out that the merc design was a dud.
it also comes to mind that mercedes didn’t achieve much before the turbo-hybrids. though that could be because they were spending all their money on developing that power unit.
i can’t help thinking that horner’s protests were silenced by red bull when their aerodynamicists worked out that the merc design was a dud.
There's zero chance that the aerodynamicists will be spending any time looking at other teams designs.
It took them a while after they bought out Brawn, but in 2013 they had a good chance of being in with a shout of the title until Silverstone with the infamous tyre blowouts (which I saw as I was there!) and then they change the tyres to the ones that were used the year previous after I believe A LOT of lobbying from Red Bull (who ironically didn't suffer any failures that weekend...). After this, aside from Hamilton's win in Hungary, no one won a race other than Vettel and Red Bull... Could have gone very differently if they'd kept the 2013 spec tyres and not reverted to 2012 spec. Either way, they were a team on the up that suffered a major hangover from Brawn having no money to develop the 2009 car and having to basically rebuild from scratch, which is not an overnight thing. The GP001 was supposedly the most expensively developed car ever at the time, which is why it was so far ahead at the start of the season but faded as they couldn't develop it.
I would have thought aerodynamicists spend quite a lot of time looking at other teams' ideas.
... Rather than working on their own system?
We'll find out soon enough if the Mercedes suddenly looks like a Ferrari.
I think most top aero departments will have run loads of sidepod ideas through their systems before choosing the one they went with. Don't think anything will have come as a massive surprise.
Merc could put the sidepods that they used in Barcelona maybe?
My totally uninformed opinion is that surely if Merc have packaged their car so tightly around the sidepod area they could add some hollow sidepod structures quite easily? Doing the reverse would be impossible for someone like Ferrari where I assume there will be rads and other bits in there. When I 1st saw the almost zero sidepod design my initial thought was one of flexibility. This PU thing does worry me though.. I really hope Merc haven't dropped a ball there.
Merc could put the sidepods that they used in Barcelona maybe?
No. They went in this direction because the wind tunnel would have showed better downforce. The problem they have is that they can't use the potential downforce because they have to run the car too high to prevent porpoising. They will find a solution to the porpoising problem, it's just a matter of how long it will take and how much of the downforce potential they can actually use on track.
BigJohn
Full MemberI would have thought aerodynamicists spend quite a lot of time looking at other teams’ ideas.
Yup, aero depts have been borrowing ideas off each year since there have been aero depts. Some ideas would need a major overhaul of the design so get parked, others are taken asap e.g. double diffusers, x-wings, wee up-high centreline wing thing, F-ducts, etc, etc
thols2
No. They went in this direction because the wind tunnel would have showed better downforce. The problem they have is that they can’t use the potential downforce because they have to run the car too high to prevent porpoising. They will find a solution to the porpoising problem, it’s just a matter of how long it will take and how much of the downforce potential they can actually use on track
I saw an article that suggested the tiny sidepods & porpoising could be linked, as the lack of sidepods means the floor on the Merc is potentially not as stiff as on cars with more conventional sized sidepods (because it's not as well supported by the large 'boxy' sidepods above. The implication is that the flat floor area is flexing where there is no sidepod to hold it stiff.
I wondered if they would resort to a more conventional design until they get on top of the issue.
Yes, they believe the zero sidepod idea potentially has more downforce than the ones they ran at Barcelona, but they clearly aren't realising that benefit at the moment. The Barcelona sidepods might be better than a poorly functioning zero-sidepod design.
I have no idea how restrictions on testing etc. affect what they can & can't play around with though.
I wondered if they would resort to a more conventional design until they get on top of the issue.
Not sure they'll go more conventional. They're off the pace a bit - for Mercedes - but they're hardly propping up the back of the grid.
I would have thought aerodynamicists spend quite a lot of time looking at other teams’ ideas.
Interesting video popped up yesterday about F1 'technical photographers' - every team 100% looks in great detail at other teams cars, not only to see what they're doing right, but also what they're doing wrong so they can avoid the same issues.
Not sure they’ll go more conventional. They’re off the pace a bit – for Mercedes – but they’re hardly propping up the back of the grid.
Exactly. They have an underdeveloped car that they are struggling to understand but it's still comfortably third fastest. They will sort out the current car rather than going back to an earlier design.
Right - I'm buying a Euromillions ticket tonight!... 😳😳
https://twitter.com/GoodwoodRRC/status/1507311341396103170?cxt=HHwWhMCo3bnrhespAAAA
Ooo, that 640.... *dribbles*
Edit - 640 never finished off the podium! I mean, it didn't finish many... But when it did, it was quick! 🙂
I saw an article that suggested the tiny sidepods & porpoising could be linked, as the lack of sidepods means the floor on the Merc is potentially not as stiff as on cars with more conventional sized sidepods (because it’s not as well supported by the large ‘boxy’ sidepods above. The implication is that the flat floor area is flexing where there is no sidepod to hold it stiff.
Isn't that why we saw them install the two thin metal braces ahead of the rear wheels? They certainly looked like an afterthought and I'm pretty sure they weren't on the car when the new sidepods were first revealed.
Does Mansell's collection include the McLaren that he was too fat to fit into?
Isn’t that why we saw them install the two thin metal braces ahead of the rear wheels? They certainly looked like an afterthought and I’m pretty sure they weren’t on the car when the new sidepods were first revealed.
Yeah, I think so. Although they will really only help towards the back edge I would have thought. I would imagine that the floor is flexing outboard of the main car 'body' along its whole length.
thols2
Exactly. They have an underdeveloped car that they are struggling to understand but it’s still comfortably third fastest. They will sort out the current car rather than going back to an earlier design.
Yeah, I wasn't really suggesting they would ditch the idea completely but wondered if they would go back to the Barcelona design while working out the problems with the narrow sidepod design, and then switch it back in.
But, then I guess if they aren't running it at race weekends then they won't be getting valuable data about where the problems lie, so I don't know whether they would then have the capacity to fix the problem.
I doubt they will go 'backwards' with the design - it was just thinking out loud, really.
Does Mansell’s collection include the McLaren that he was too fat to fit into?
I remember someone saying he should take his wallet out of his overalls and he would have fitted. It'll be even fatter after selling these! The Williams is the car he used to give Senna a lift, which probably adds a zero.
I was one of the track invaders, about twenty feet from the pit entrance when they rolled in at the end of the race that day. 🙂
Ferrari porpoising quite badly even on this smooth track. Merc as well but not quite as bad. Red Bull looks super stable and no bouncing. They’re gonna walk this.. well as long as they don’t both break down again 😬
And just like that LeClerc tops the sheet with next to no porpoising!
what you say makes sense, but if it wasn’t for reduced drag, do you know why they reduced the side pods to such a degree?
Because it makes the floor produce more downforce due to faster airflow on top of it.
I'm of the opinion that the mercedes generates the most floor downforce of any of the 2022 cars, but I think they may have overdone it as their car is the worst for porpoising which appears to be an issue that none of the teams anticipated.
I think if they get the porpoising/straight line issues resolved without compromising the floor downforce too much their car will rival ferrari/red bull and in some cases could be faster, especially on low-mid speed corners.
There’s zero chance that the aerodynamicists will be spending any time looking at other teams designs.
i’d disagree with this considering the lengths teams go to to conceal the details of their cars.
I’m of the opinion that the mercedes generates the most floor downforce of any of the 2022 cars, but I think they may have overdone it as their car is the worst for porpoising which appears to be an issue that none of the teams anticipated.
Porpoising is caused by the ground effect sucking the car to the ground. Once the floor is close enough to the ground the airflow stalls and the downforce stops so the car bounces up as the downforce is no longer compressing the suspension. This then repeats as downforce builds again. This effect is really difficult to simulate in the wind tunnel which is why most team struggled with it initially.
So yes you are probably right, the Merc floor makes so much downforce they are really struggling to control the suspension and ride height.
Because it makes the floor produce more downforce due to faster airflow on top of it.
Wouldn't you want the faster flow under the car, and slower over the top...? Be interested to know how much interaction there is between the two - in the old days they had skirts, of course, so what happened with flow over the pods didn't make much difference to downforce. It's all probably moved on a bit since then! 🙂
Wouldn’t you want the faster flow under the car, and slower over the top…? Be interested to know how much interaction there is between the two
This guy seems to know his shit. The thing with F1 cars is that every part of the car interacts with the other parts in complex ways. There will never be a simple answer, it will always be finding some compromise between conflicting demands.
Big explosion and fire at an oil depot not far from the circuit. Looks pretty serious but no indication the weekend won’t go ahead.
Apparently that’s the burning Max could smell…
Well it is wrong to have a race in a country that’s at war . . . unless they are very rich, of course
Was going to say something similar - funny how we don’t go to race in Russia because they’re at war, but conveniently forget that Saudi have been at war for years. Double standards yet again…
But it's OK as long as you mention it at a press conference.
Race looking very dodgy now according to Twitter...