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I'd imagine that with 7 titles and the expectations of at least being in the pointy end for more seasons makes it easier to be a bit more relaxed about losing this one.
I'm truly hoping that Merc properly pwn RB next season! Wasn't the theory earlier this year that RB were putting most of their eggs in this years basket and Merc had started to look towards 2022 and that's why they were a bit slow to start with the new reg's?
@swavis - and Max likes his car set up in a very particular way (hence why his team mates struggle a bit as the fundamental car design aids Max's setup) and that may not be possible to achieve under the new regs.
I see Lewis just received a knighthood to add to his recently earned sainthood. He is the only real winner in this s*** storm.
thegreatape
The other problem the FIA have is that if they get rid of Masi and make him the scapegoat, then what’s stopping him spilling the beans on the whole thing. Some sort of NDA I suppose.
thols2
I think a lot of people agree that Max is too aggressive and steps over the line quite often, but nobody seriously denies that he is incredibly talented and has put in some stunning drives this year. The irony is that if Max just learned to be a bit more patient and collect the points instead of pushing everything to the absolute limit, he would have wrapped up the title quite comfortably. That’s what kept Hamilton in contention – he was willing to back out of potential crashes and collect the points. They both drove superbly, Hamilton a bit more intelligently, Verstappen pushing to the limit without looking at the bigger picture. I wish that Hamilton had won the title, but Verstappen is a deserving champion.
Agreed.
Also he drove (largely) within the rules, as they were being implemented/enforced. It's that last part I have an issue with. If it's not enforced, it's effectively legal.
That’s the thing – Max didn’t drive superbly – he was bloody awful all through the year
Lol no, he drove some amazing races (and qualifying), yes he drove like a dick a few times but then so do most drivers over the course of a season.
I notice he has stayed silent whereas after Brazil and Saudi he was out defending his and the stewards decisions.
I'd say that's more due to the potential legal stuff that may happen this time around
I hope at least Max fans stop booing Lewis at next year's GPs, it's just pathetic
Max likes his car set up in a very particular way (hence why his team mates struggle a bit as the fundamental car design aids Max’s setup) and that may not be possible to achieve under the new regs.
This is a huge misunderstanding of what has happened with Red Bull, Merc, and McLaren. Those cars are all difficult to drive at the limit because the engineers looked at the wind tunnel and track test data and worked towards designing the fastest car they could. They expect top drivers to be able to adapt to the car, they haven't designed the car to suit a particular driver (because you will generally end up with a slower car that way). The Merc is difficult to get into it's optimum operating window, but Hamilton is better able to achieve that then Bottas. The Red Bull has a nervous rear end, but Verstappen has the confidence and reflexes to deal with that. No engineer or driver is going to deliberately make the car nervous, it's just a by-product of how the rear aerodynamics work. I would be very surprised if Max and Lewis didn't adapt very easily to the new cars. If Merc or Red Bull turn out to be off the pace at the start of next year, it will be because the car is not good enough, not because one of those two can't adapt to a car with different characteristics.
https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1471419870680125441
Official withdraw of result protest.
Disappointed, in as much as I don't see the FIA doing enough under their own investigation, to give many of us faith in racing rules being applied fairly going forward.
They expect top drivers to be able to adapt to the car, they haven’t designed the car to suit a particular driver (because you will generally end up with a slower car that way). The Merc is difficult to get into it’s optimum operating window, but Hamilton is better able to achieve that then Bottas. The Red Bull has a nervous rear end, but Verstappen has the confidence and reflexes to deal with that.
Yeah but if Max continually gives the feedback that he can go faster if the rear is less nervous then they will work towards that goal. If checo says it, who cares.
Thols, there's a lot you say that I don't agree with, but this is absolutely right
I would be very surprised if Max and Lewis didn’t adapt very easily to the new cars. If Merc or Red Bull turn out to be off the pace at the start of next year, it will be because the car is not good enough, not because one of those two can’t adapt to a car with different characteristics.
Max will (and Lewis too) have a setup preference, but that doesn't mean that he can't adapt and wring the neck of something that doesn't work exactly as he'd hope.
The right thing to do and some very pointed wording in that statement. I think Merc and Lewis come out of it all the better...
Susie having her say. Again - carefully worded so as not to look to be detracting from Max and laying it all on Masi. If this hasn't been worded or at the very least approved by Toto/Marc I would be surprised - the message is quite clear as to who they hold responsible. He's gone for sure...
https://twitter.com/Susie_Wolff/status/1471400042527346689?s=20
If checo says it, who cares.
If it doesn’t make Max slower then why wouldn’t they listen to Checo? Don’t forget they didn’t win the constructors’ this year, and I’d suggest that the main reason for that is that Bottas started races further up the grid than Perez.
n0b0dy0ftheg0at
Free MemberOfficial withdraw of result protest.
Disappointed, in as much as I don’t see the FIA doing enough under their own investigation, to give many of us faith in racing rules being applied fairly.
Just keep an eye on what Mercedes say/do next year to see if there are still concerns about them being applied fairly. Once bitten n all that
Tenner that Lewis drops the trophy on Max's foot tonight - breaking his toes and putting him out for the first few months of 2022! 🤣🤣🏆
the-muffin-man
Full MemberTenner that Lewis drops the trophy on Max’s foot tonight – breaking his toes and putting him out for the first few months of 2022! 🤣🤣🏆
Bet driving one footed would barely slow either of those 2!
It'll be interesting to see how the great and good of the motorsport world respond when the WDC and WCC titles are officially presented tonight.
It will all be very civil and to the 'script'.
It’ll be interesting to see how the great and good of the motorsport world respond when the WDC and WCC titles are officially presented tonight.
They'll clap politely and pretend that all is well.
Merc and LH have come out of this very well - everyone knows they should have won both Championships but even without that, to win Constructors for 8 years in a row is amazing. There's the counter issue of if they're too dominant - the Lance Armstrong of the motorsport world maybe. 😉
Is it just F1 tonight or other series presented too (never really paid attention before)? As they royally ****ed the deciding GT3 race too!
Bez
If it doesn’t make Max slower then why wouldn’t they listen to Checo? Don’t forget they didn’t win the constructors’ this year, and I’d suggest that the main reason for that is that Bottas started races further up the grid than Perez.
I should have said "If checo wants something different to Max, who cares".
Obviously if both think it will be a benefit then they will do it. But obviously the team will put greater weight on their top drivers opinions.
Is it just F1 tonight or other series presented too
I think it's every series presided over by the FIA, possibly including the announcement of who will be the new FIA president.
Susie Wolff has articulated my feelings perfectly. Thank you, Susie.
waits for it…..
That is not how I read Merc's statement Michael!!
I fear for the life of that parody account. 🙂
Yeah - if that's Masi's real Twitter feed I'll eat my skiddy undercrackers! 💩
Susie WolffMercedes AMG Petronas PR team has articulated my feelings perfectly. Thank you,SusieMercedes
FTFY 😉
I’d imagine there was quite a bit of negotiating between the FIA and Mercedes in order for Mercedes to release that statement using the wording they gave. It’ll be interesting to see what comes of it, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the negotiations included “guarantees”
the more Masi tweets, the less I think he’s helping
Susie Wolff - Former racing driver and current CEO of a racing team. Someone with far more knowledge of the rules and the situation. She may be bias, being both British and the wife of Toto, but it was a personal statement backed up by knowledge.
if that’s Masi’s real Twitter feed I’ll eat my skiddy undercrackers!
From the Twitter bio for that account. I think your undercrackers are safe (from being eaten, probably not safe in general!)
Current FIA Race Director for the Formula 1 series 🏎️
Hobbies: postponing races 🕒, red flagging sessions 🚩 and penalizing masterclass drivers 🐐
Susie Wolff – Former racing driver and current CEO of a racing team. Someone with far more knowledge of the rules and the situation. She may be bias, being both British and the wife of Toto, but it was a personal statement backed up by knowledge.
Yes I am well aware of that but if her statement was not at least cleared by Merc I'll eat my hat...
A lawyer’s perspective on the way the rules can and can’t be interpreted, and what an appeal panel of legally qualified adjudicators would likely conclude.
Just putting more pressure on the FIA to meet some of Merc's demands given Lewis is still by far the sport's biggest global brand or does he mean it? Answers on a postcard
Chatter on twitter that Merc and Lewis not going to awards ceremony... not seen anything official tho.
Reg 6.6 The drivers finishing first, second and third in the Championship must be present at the annual
FIA Prize Giving ceremony.
Planet F1 has a quote from Toto saying he and Lewis aren't going....someone else is representing Merc
Reg 6.6 The drivers finishing first, second and third in the Championship must be present at the annual
FIA Prize Giving ceremony.
I think there is another reg stating what the procedure is regarding lapped cars and the SC. Can't remember what it is though.
I am pretty sure that the FIA would be happy to invent another rule along the lines of 'but at the discretion of the awards host a driver can be excused of attending' or something 😀
Full story here on what Toto said:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12497203/lewis-hamilton-toto-wolff-says-he-can-give-no-assurances-british-star-will-continue-in-f1-after-abu-dhabi-pain(Note is has been updated since I first posted the link)
I hope Merc and Lewis do go, LH may not have the title but he does have the moral high-ground and it would be a shame to undermine this.
It reminds me a bit of Damon Hill in 94, having a title snatched away from him in strange circumstances but being very dignified about it and coming back stronger.
Reg 6.6 The drivers finishing first, second and third in the Championship must be present at the annual FIA Prize Giving ceremony.
For the FIA to attempt to enforce that under the current circumstances would be grotesque.
For the FIA to attempt to enforce that under the current circumstances would be grotesque.
I think Merc are just doing it to troll the FIA. If the FIA try to enforce it, Merc can fight it in court and the media on the grounds of selective enforcement of regulations. That will give Merc and Hamilton the day in court they want without making them look like the guys who are trying to steal a title. The only thing they can really do is ignore it, but that makes them look weak.
It'll be interesting to see if Michael Massi has the brass neck/is allowed to show up to the party tonight...
It’ll be interesting to see if Michael Massi has the brass neck/is allowed to show up to the party tonight…
Well I heard he said he's not going to go, then Horner sent him a message and now "any" of him is going.
No Toto or Lewis tonight
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/hamilton-wolff-to-miss-fia-prize-giving-gala/6885862/
Article 6.6 of F1's Sporting Regulations states: "The drivers finishing first, second and third in the Championship must be present at the annual FIA Prize Giving ceremony."
Lets see if they uphold or just change to suit
No Toto or Lewis tonight
I had thought up till now he had been very gracious in defeat and he had gone further up in my estimation.
Now, whilst I can see why he may have made this decision, I am a little disappointed as it would have been the classy thing to do.
Now, whilst I can see why he may have made this decision, I am a little disappointed as it would have been the classy thing to do.
I agree and interestingly Toto has said he is not going because of the respect he has for Lewis so it sounds like Lewis doesn't want to go and Toto has his back.
Do you think Max would be going if the positions were reversed? I suspect not. He couldn't even stay on a podium when he was soundly beaten fair and square
This is just going to drag on and on isn't it. The repercussions of this are bringing the sport into previously imaginable levels of disrepute and there is certainly a chance Lewis could walk away from F1 for good, which would be a tragic outcome. It could even make Mercedes withdraw from the sport all together.
The more I think about it, there is only one way this can be resolved fairly; void the result and have a race re-run, funded entirely by the FIA. They cocked this up and it's down to them to right the wrong. They can't just void the result of the race and we have effectively a 21 race calendar. Red Bull know that if the roles were reversed, they'd be in the same boat. And given how they haven't covered themselves in glory this year, a bit of good sportsmanship would go a long, long way to restoring a bit of respect for them. A football match would be re-played if a similar thing happened.
Heck, it could even work for F1 and the FIA from a marketing point of view. Imagine given how much coverage the fallout of this has created and just how many people would tune in watch the re-run. It's fair, sets the record straight and we can all enjoy another race with two drivers at the peak of their powers going hammer and tongs in a fair fight.
Maybe Lewis isn't trying to signal anything in not going, he just doesn't want to go.
Can you blame him?
Could easily justify not attending because of Omicron, prioritising social events, as per Prof Whitty's suggestion.
No way would they ever re-run the race, nor would any of the teams support it. This is the end of the longest season in F1 history, they are now going full-bore into 2022 build and test, which is also the biggest change in regs in decades, and they have very little time until the testing season starts. I'd wager there isn't one team that wants a rematch - some of the drivers would have to shuffle back to their previous employers!
Now, whilst I can see why he may have made this decision, I am a little disappointed as it would have been the classy thing to do.
I'd say the opposite personally. If you don't agree with something then turning up and politely clapping along is a bit two faced. Classier to say no thanks. Like people who turn down honours.
Maybe Lewis isn’t trying to signal anything in not going, he just doesn’t want to go.
Can you blame him?
Could easily justify not attending because of Omicron, prioritising social events, as per Prof Whitty’s suggestion.
It's in Paris, which locks down, tomorrow or the day after. Not sure I'd be going even if I'd won the damn thing...
If Mercedes turned up, the event would be excruciating and a total car crash (pun intended.)
Could have ended up like the east coast / west coast beef between Suge Knight and Diddy at the hip-hop awards ceremony back in the day.
As it is, I expect Whinger Spice to give it the full David Brent.
I had thought up till now he had been very gracious in defeat and he had gone further up in my estimation.
Lewis and Mercedes are boycotting it because it's the FIA, not because Redbull/Max won.
This has NOTHING to do with them being good sportsmen, this is about the FIA completely screwing them and then having the brass neck to try and find a way to wriggle out of their cock upon dismissing Mercedes protest.
Lewis and Mercedes are boycotting it because it’s the FIA, not because Redbull/Max won.
Well aware of this. Still of the same opinion.
Maybe fia should be showing a bit more understanding in the circumstances.
Lewis and Mercedes are boycotting it
Again, Mercedes aren't boycotting it...Toto and Lewis are. James Allison is going to collect the Constructors prize.
Well aware of this. Still of the same opinion.
So your response to a gross injustice would be to support those guilty of visiting that injustice upon you? All for the sake of looking classy? Interesting.
I prefer people with principles and convictions that you can hold them to rather than those who bow to others perception of them.
Each to their own.
So your response to a gross injustice would be to support those guilty of visiting that injustice upon you? All for the sake of looking classy? Interesting
No, it’s the contractural obligation that I am particularly referring to, e.g. even though you feel a major injustice has taken place, you are still classy enough to fulfil your obligations rather than give them the satisfaction of being able to question your integrity. It’s just a different perspective isn’t it?
I prefer people with principles and convictions that you can hold them to
And yet here you are on an F1 thread after the whole circus has just visited Saudi Arabia.
It’s just a different perspective isn’t it?
It is but why would he go and celebrate with the thieves that picked his pocket and why is he the only one expected to show class when all those around him have shown zero?
Enough, **** em.
I do hope Lewis stays - he may start to release some music otherwise!! 🤣🤣
If I was Lewis, I’d probably have gone but insisted, to the point of being a dick about it, everyone at the FIA and redbull call me ‘Sir Lewis’.
Different rules for everyone else, natch.
You need to look up the definition of integrity. Integrity is about having morals and principles. Contractual obligations to an organisation with little to no integrity and you’re questioning his? Really?
In the BBC report of the prizegiving, they say:
<span data-reactid=".25ac6h7m69a.0.0.0.1.$paragraph-9.0">Verstappen pointed out that Hamilton himself had won a title in similar circumstances, when he deprived Ferrari's Felipe Massa on the last corner of the last lap of the last grand prix in 2008.</span>
No Max, that wasn't similar at all. That was just racing, not unjust decisions by the race director.
I assume Lewis’s defence will be along the lines of “when it says driver who fished second in the championship, it doesn’t mean all drivers who finished second in the championship”.
Oh, I didn’t realise it was live streaming on YouTube
If I was Lewis, I’d probably have gone but insisted, to the point of being a dick about it, everyone at the FIA and redbull call me ‘Sir Lewis’.
Ahh but according to one of the more reliable sources of news out there it's actually "Sir Max"
https://newsthump.com/2021/12/16/fia-awards-lewis-hamiltons-knighthood-to-max-verstappen/
Apparantely Lewis is really dissolutioned (sp?) about the whole thing and has been in daily conversations with Toto. I reckon Toto will be trying to pursuade him to keep racing - it could be that bad.
I wouldn’t blame him for quitting but I really hope he comes back and drives MV into the ground for the next 2 years and gets 9 WDC titles.
If they punish LH/Merc for not turning up to the ball then the FIA will be displaying a monumental lack of foresight in how this could damage their reputation.
So if now he wants to peeve off and not come out to play anymore because he lost, then good riddance to Lewis the LOSER
Yeah, 7 WDCs, most race wins, most poles, knighthood etc etc, a real loser.
Must be your bed time now dear. 🙄
The FIA will punish them then, they have absolutely no self-awareness when it comes to these situations.
No Max, that wasn’t similar at all. That was just racing, not unjust decisions by the race director.
Exactly. It was pure racing through changing conditions with everyone taking gambles on what was the best course of action. Absolutely no-one thought during or after the race that they had seen a manipulated result, more that it had been an amazing spectacle that would be talked about for years for all the right reasons. The exact opposite of how Max's maiden championship will be remembered strangely.
the safety car came out which allowed Hamilton to catch up and get second place
You seem not to grasp the fundamental difference between that safety car (and all the others) and the one at the end of the season.
F1 trophy time at the Gala, let’s see if there’s any popcorn to be had 🙂
Hamilton is also obviously forgetting that in Imola he crashed into the gravel trap and was a lap down until Bottas also crashed and the safety car came out which allowed Hamilton to catch up and get second place
He was a (fortunate) beneficiary of the rules being applied correctly, had it happened to another driver, it would be the same outcome. The rules were not applied correctly in AD.
He was a (fortunate) beneficiary of the rules being applied correctly. The rules were not applied correctly in AD.
Indeed. If the safety car had happened and the Williams cleared up very quickly, the lapped cars allowed through and the race restarted for one lap then no-one would have had a problem. In other words if the rules were followed, but you got unlucky, well, that's racing.
The issue is that the rules weren't followed. It's almost like Masi bunged a grand on a Max win with 5 laps to go and did what ever he could to get a big win.
The issue is that the rules weren’t followed. It’s almost like Masi bunged a grand on a Max win with 5 laps to go and did what ever he could to get a big win.
I know! It’s so weird what happened I can’t help thinking it’s some sort of betting scam or he’s been paid/persuaded to make Max win if the opportunity came about.
Disappointing lack of entertainment from the Prize Gala. Interesting choice of team radio clips on their montage of the season, though.
Daffy
Full MemberWell aware of this. Still of the same opinion.
So your response to a gross injustice would be to support those guilty of visiting that injustice upon you? All for the sake of looking classy? Interesting.
I prefer people with principles and convictions that you can hold them to rather than those who bow to others perception of them.
Each to their own.
But if you base your behavioural compass on what the FIA/RB/Max have done, isn't that the polar opposite of "classy"? To me, honouring the agreement to appear that he signed up to at the beginning of the season, and ignoring the issue of other people's behaviour is pretty classy.
There's no right or wrong I guess. As you say, each to their own. 🙂
Hamilton is also obviously forgetting that in Imola he crashed into the gravel trap and was a lap down until Bottas also crashed and the safety car came out which allowed Hamilton to catch up and get second place
You don’t get it do you. Nobody’s complaining about there being a safety car, or Max getting a ‘free’ pit stop for new tyres, or the gap Lewis had built up getting wiped out, or anything else that happened that normally happens under a SC. All that is part of F1, sometimes it goes for you, sometimes against.
The issue in Abu Dhabi is that everyone made strategic decisions based on the well established SC rules as prescribed by the regulations. And then Masi deviated from the two regulations that dictate what happens once the danger has been removed, in both cases giving an advantage to Verstappen that he would not have had if the regulations had been followed. Like they are every other time.
If Latifi had crashed two laps earlier, and the hazard cleared in the same time, the normal process would have been followed and you’d have had one or two laps to go with Verstappen right back up behind Hamilton. And that would have been fine. Unlucky, frustrating and bitterly disappointing for Hamilton, sure, but also fair and in accordance with the rules. So they’d have had nothing to complain about, it would have been a 100% legitimate victory for Max based only upon ability, strategy and fate. As it was, Masi did not apply the rules correctly, but instead misapplied them - knowingly, as his post race comments from Eisel confirm - in such a way to give a massive advantage to Verstappen.