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On top of that, I think Hamilton has had much more competitive teammates than Schumacher did. To be fair to Schumacher, he got priority because he was faster than any teammate, but Hamilton raced against Alonso, Button, and Rosberg, who were all World Champions, and always looked first class on the track. Matching Alonso in his rookie year was pretty impressive.
On top of [i]that[/i], remember also that his teams were always dedicated to Schumacher in a way that Hamilton has never required (as far as we know) - Schumi had dedicated, contracted number twos (s****) in the other car, and Johnny Herbert tells the story that, when they were at Benetton together, the Schumacher side of the garage had access to all of his data, but he was not allowed access to Schumacher's data. Bit offside, really.
LH knows now not to push too hard too soon, but to wait for the track to come to him. He's done this a couple of times this season. Something MV and VB don't seem to get.
That was a great drive from Hamilton yesterday. Total class from the best driver in a generation.
I reckon he'll do another year at Mercedes, see where the regs are heading and poss quit whilst he's ahead.
On the other hand I cant see Verstappen winning a WDC. He's coming across as increasingly petulant and spoilt (the constant bitching over the radio etc) and with the quality of the other drivers coming through I reckon his star will start to wane. Carlos Sainz however is proving to be every bit as good as his old man. Some great drives this season, and combining him with Le Clerc at Ferrari next season might be a decent combo.
thols2
Free Member
Those clips are great, it looks like when I'm playing F1 2019 and using the flashback feature.
I cant see Verstappen winning a WDC. He’s coming across as increasingly petulant and spoilt
Jesus, go back and review how he was for his first couple of years. Now he's like Mahatma Gandhi in comparison.
Also, being petulant and spoilt never stopped anyone succeeding in sports. If Hamilton really did announce he was quitting next year, I can see Verstappen being very high on Merc's shortlist of replacements. He might be a petulant ****, but he is extremely fast and the only teammate who hasn't been destroyed by him is Ricciardo (who would probably be another one on the shortlist).
I don't think there is any denying Verstappen's talent. His head clearly wasn't in the right place yesterday. I think he was still kicking himself for not getting pole and over-drove the whole race.
He's normally pretty good in the wet. He is the only driver to win a rain affected race for the last six years that isn't Lewis Hamilton.
What can you say about Lewis though, he's just in a different class to everyone else.
Is he the GOAT? Its next to impossible to compare drivers across generations, but I think he is the most complete driver I've ever seen.
Hamilton just seems to get better and better. Identifies any weaknesses and remedies them. Surely he’s got to go for an 8th WDC and pass the 100 wins mark.
Do you think there's an argument for terminating Bottas's contract for next year? He's decent enough, but Mercedes need to be looking for Hamilton's replacement and it's clearly not Bottas.
Do you think there’s an argument for terminating Bottas’s contract for next year?
That will depend on Hamilton's long term plans IMO. Bottas is very fast in qualifying. He isn't as good a racer as Hamilton, but Mercs have generally seemed to operate within a very narrow window and Hamilton seems better at finding that. Bottas did have some terrible luck this year, while Hamilton had some lucky escapes. If Merc want to replace Bottas, they will want someone just as fast, but not likely to upset Hamilton. If Hamilton intends to stick around beyond next year, much safer to stick with what they have than to risk an intra-team war.
Bottas was never going to replace Hamilton, he's there to help Merc win the constructors whilst Hamilton mops up the drivers. They'll keep the band together until the regs change then bring in a junior driver who Hamilton can work with for 1/2 years before calling it a day. Its hard to bet against Lewis winning an 8th and setting a century of wins, then passing the torch to another British driver. I dont think it'll be Russell, even though he's in the Merc development programme, so maybe there'll be another F2 graduate in a years time that Hamilton would want to take under his wing.
Verstappen just cant seem to leave behind the gobby spoilt child part of his personality. Talented? - Defo. Flawed? - totally. Whats interesting is how popular opinion on him is changing. Like was said earlier - 2/3 years ago he was a breath of fresh air and appealing, now its getting to be a tired act and he's running out of toys to throw out of the pram (and thats before his comments about disabilities and other drivers).
Surely he’s got to go for an 8th WDC and pass the 100 wins mark.
Yeah I said the same to my wife – I could see him walking away once he has achieved those milestones so I hope he does it next season (the 100 wins will be easier but it just depends on who he drives for next year as to whether he will get another Championship) and I hope that, if he doesn't win it, he doesn't go chasing it and become a fading star like Vettel.
the 100 wins will be easier but it just depends on who he drives for next year
The only team Hamilton will be driving for next year is Merc. Nobody's quite sure what the holdup is on his contract, possibly he wants only a one-year contract whereas Merc want longer, maybe he wants a pay raise or some other conditions. It is definitely not because he's looking at driving for another team. It's not impossible that he might quit next year, but there's zero chance he would be driving anything other than a Merc.
The only team Hamilton will be driving for next year is Merc.
Well you would think that (and I suppose I do) but then you correctly point out that he hasn't actually signed and TBF, nobody quite knows what is going on in his head. Perhaps he wants to show the world what he can do as an individual rather than just being in the strongest car and he has often said in the past that he would like to drive a Ferrari.
Bottas was never going to replace Hamilton, he’s there to help Merc win the constructors whilst Hamilton mops up the drivers.
Be interesting to see the standings if you disqualified Bottas from all his points positions, to see if Lewis would still be leading the constructors on his own. If that’s the case, I’m getting my CV in, for 50% of what Bottas is currently on. Someone has to be the second driver, may as well be me.
Teams are there to win the constructors, not the drivers championship. So Merc want someone who can win - Hamilton, and someone who will come second without upsetting Hamilton.
Bottas does seem the perfect person for that job. They also have worked together for several seasons.
Why change that currently working situation ?
Be interesting to see the standings if you disqualified Bottas from all his points positions, to see if Lewis would still be leading the constructors on his own.
307 point for Lewis vs 240 for both Red Bulls, not having Bottas there at all would have promoted a few of Verstappens 3rds to 2nds and one 2nd to 1st, Albon would also have improved one place in most races, but not enough to close the 67 points that Hamilton leads the combined Red Bulls
he has often said in the past that he would like to drive a Ferrari.
He was being polite when asked a dumb question, nobody ever took that seriously. Ferrari have two drivers signed, Sainz seems pretty good, Leclerc seems to be outstanding. There is zero chance of Hamilton going there - he's not interested and neither are Ferrari.
There's zero chance of going to Red Bull. There's zero chance of going to Renault. I'm sure McLaren would take him back, but Hamilton would not be interested. There's zero chance of Racing Point. Hamilton will not be interested in driving for a backmarker team with no money, so the only team he will be at next year is Merc.
However, it isn't impossible that he just decides he's achieved enough and wants to take a break. Unlikely, but not impossible.
Ferrari have two drivers signed, Sainz seems pretty good, Leclerc seems to be outstanding.
Doh, you are right, I had forgotten they had signed Sainz 😂
Also, being petulant and spoilt never stopped anyone succeeding in sports.
Well, there's Tommy Byrne…
(Great documentary by the way, well worth a watch if anyone's not seen it.)
Interesting that Red Bull have again found a set up problem with the car so Max has an excuse. Managing drivers seems harder than managing tires.
My armchair expertise (worth nothing) suggests that Max’s main issue was his right foot if the audio on the in-car footage was anything to go by. He didn’t seem to have a problem getting lap times in clear air, but he sure got plenty of wheelspin coming onto the straights when he could sniff a potential overtake, and that’s not front wing issue. His spin behind Perez looked like he just stayed too close too early in the move instead of lifting just a fraction and being in the right place as they came onto the straight—again, just a bit impatient.
But then I was sitting on a sofa rather than being paid millions to be fast in a car, so… y’know.
Bottas does seem the perfect person for that job. They also have worked together for several seasons.
Long thought the same. The second driver should push the first to greater things, whilst hopefully getting the odd championship for themselves. Same in cycling teams. Bottas is the perfect foil. He probably knows it himself if honest. His interviews seldom look convincing other than for a supporting role. In cycling you either stay of go to head a new team. He won’t be going. And there’s no shame in supporting the now greatest driver of all time.
As TiRed says Bottas is exactly what Mercedes need. He is fast enough to keep Hamilton on his toes, can pick up race wins when Hamilton has an off-day, or very occasionally when he doesn't, can consistantly deliver points and constructors titles and doesn't rock the boat.
However, I think he thinks that he can beat Hamilton, maybe just once. He's seen Rosberg do it and seems to come out of the off-season all guns blazing and do really well at the start of the season but I think the sheer effort of keeping up that level of performance is something he can't do, Rosberg did it once, Hamilton can do it all the time.
but Hamilton raced against Alonso, Button, and Rosberg, who were all World Champions,
Useless fact: Every world champion has been teammates with another world champion. (one tenuous link in there admitedly)
He didn’t seem to have a problem getting lap times in clear air, but he sure got plenty of wheelspin coming onto the straights when he could sniff a potential overtake, and that’s not front wing issue
dunno...bearing in mind I know exactly the same about aerodynamics as a bin, couldn't a badly adjusted front wing reduce downforce in certain circumstances e.g. in dirty air?
Useless fact: Every world champion has been teammates with another world champion. (one tenuous link in there admitedly)
Is that true? I mean, it's a GREAT fact if it is... Just thinking, like, Alan Jones, Jody Scheckter - are we only counting F1, or do non-F1 teammates count too?
I like this game! 🙂
Just F1.
I made a spider diagram when I found out just to check. Turns out that they can be linked in three groups, a huge one, a smaller one, and the two tenuous ones in a pair of their own.
Some, like Hamilton above with Alonso, Button and Rosberg can be linked with more than one.
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Anyone want to make a nice looking diagram with years and teams and things on it? Mine was scribbled on a bit of scruffy paper. Had to look a couple up, top marks if anyone can do it off the top of their head
I thought maybe Hakkinen was an exception but he ended up team mates with Nigel Mansell at one point
EDIT
https://www.lightsoutblog.com/2020/06/08/formula-1-world-champion-team-mates/
Alan Jones and James Hunt are the exceptions, had to google it though, both are a wee bit before my time 😉
Think Hakinnen did some GPs at the end of '93 alongside Senna? Might be wrong about that...
Hakkinen was also teammates with Senna at McLaren in 1993, and then with Mansell at McLaren in 1995.
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Mansell actually has the most, Mario Andretti 1980, Keke Rosberg 1985, Nelson Piquet 1986, Alain Prost 1990, Damon Hill 1994 (as a stand-in) and then Mika Hakkinen briefly in 1995.
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Alan Jones and James Hunt are the tenuous ones. Neither were teammates with another champion but when Hunt was racing the works Hesketh in 1975 Jones was racing another Hesketh entered by Harry Stiller. Sort of teammates.
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[EDIT] Beaten to it
Rosberg did it once
And it took so much out of him he knew he couldn’t do it again. (Which is not meant as a criticism).
And it took so much out of him he knew he couldn’t do it again.
I think to a degree it was because Hamilton's head was in a bad place that year and he had some reliability issues. Once Rosberg got in his head he struggled.
I think the fact that was unlikely to occur again is what made Rosberg decide to stop rather than any fatigue on his part.
Schumacher was only team mate with two world champions. Nelson Piquet in 91 (Piquet beat him) and Rosberg in 2010-12 (Rosberg beat him).
https://f1-facts.com/stats/teammates/M.Schumacher
Great documentary by the way
really enjoyed that, thanks for posting
What About Vettel? re the world champ teammates thing.
What About Vettel? re the world champ teammates thing.
Kimi
Useless fact: Every world champion has been teammates with another world champion. (one tenuous link in there admitedly)
What I should have said was that Hamilton was teammates with World Champions at the peak of their abilities. Sure, Schumacher was teammates with Piquet, but Piquet admitted that he was having vision problems and was just in it for the money. He was a shadow of his former self.
Hamilton had Alonso as teammate in his rookie year, when Alonso was still young and fearsomely good. Hamilton's raw speed was just astonishing. Then he had Button and Roberg as teammates, both of whom are easy to underestimate. Schumacher never had competition of that level until he made his comeback and faced Rosberg.
I think that's all the links, anyone spot any I've missed? Hunt/Jones is tenuous, smae car at least. Some were only for one race, some for years
Crikey, good work! Hunt/Jones is a BIT tenuous... 🙂 Only missing link that springs to mind is Damo and Prost, not sure if there are any others?
So Albon destroyed his car in FP2...not the ideal way to keep your job
Still really feel for Albon. He's pretty good, he did a fine job at Alpha Tauri and had the measure of last year's RB. Likewise, Gasly has ably demonstrated that he's pretty handy in something that isn't a Red Bull. He's likely to be out of a drive next year and that sucks a lot, the guy is rated by Russell for crying out loud.
Maybe Verstappen's weakness is that he demands a very specific car setup that is detrimental to both drivers bringing home points.
Maybe Verstappen’s weakness is that he demands a very specific car setup that is detrimental to both drivers bringing home points.
That's my understanding too...and Red Bull develop the car to suit his style, and wonder why no-one else can make it go quickly. Doesn't matter who their second driver is really...and certainly no way to win a constructor's prize
Maybe Verstappen’s weakness is that he demands a very specific car setup that is detrimental to both drivers bringing home points.
That sounds more like a management weakness really (if the case)
it's not as if he hasn't stuffed into many a barrier too, hence the moniker crashstappen.
They're gonna build the car their number one wants all day long, surely?
Bit of nostalgia for fans of the Jordan 191. 🙂
They’re gonna build the car their number one wants all day long, surely?
Up to a point...but the constructors championship is worth a fortune to a team, so by building a car that is so extremely biased to Verstappen's style reduces their chances of winning that (even if they didn't set out to do that, they don't seem to be able to change it)
Bit of nostalgia for fans of the Jordan 191. 🙂
Great link, thanks. Loved the Michael Jackson story.
They’re gonna build the car their number one wants all day long, surely?
I don't think that's what they set out to do. I think they chased maximum downforce, but the rear of the car is a bit unstable on the limit. To make the car more stable, they'd end up with less downforce. Verstappen seems to be able to handle the unstable rear, so he'd end up slower because a more stable car would have less downforce. Problem is, their other drivers just aren't as good as Verstappen. He can be an arrogant ****, but you gotta admit, he's pretty quick.
BBC Presenters reckon crashappen is favorite for pole what a joke.
BBC Presenters reckon crashappen is favorite for pole what a joke.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1332657584512393217
Thanks for the FP3 times but that is not qualifying which as we know is a whole different ball game.
Thanks for the FP3 times but that is not qualifying which as we know is a whole different ball game.
That's why Verstappen is favourite to take pole. It doesn't mean he has pole, just that he is favourite.
That’s why Verstappen is favourite to take pole. It doesn’t mean he has pole, just that he is favourite.
It's almost like a little game for Mercedes now. Mess around a bit in FP and Q1, turn on the A Game for Q3 and set a new lap record into the bargain.
not even close
Cracking lap from Russell, shame for Sainz. Fingers crossed that there's a crash up front to mix things up...
Hopefully not a gearbox or engine penalty for Sainz, going to be very hard to come back up the field tomorrow.
Anyone else watching the laps and thinking that next weekend's race on the short track is going to be bonkers? Lots of chances to make mistakes and the margins should be incredibly tiny!
It’s almost like a little game for Mercedes now.
Hold out a soupçon of hope during the practice sessions and then grind their faces into the dirt during qualifying cackling madly.
I love it. All those years of Ferrari calling the tune and now they look like small squealing piglets demanding to be suckled by mommy FIA.
They are the Donald Trump of motorsports. They got caught cheating and lost.
Insert Ha Ha! meme here.
Verstappen seems to be able to handle the unstable rear, so he’d end up slower because a more stable car would have less downforce. Problem is, their other drivers just aren’t as good as Verstappen. He can be an arrogant ****, but you gotta admit, he’s pretty quick.
This is the main thing. Verstappen, Alonso, maybe Leclerc can drive a bad/misbehaving car and still excel. This is why all of these three can still overtake, even in the wake of the car in front. They can drive through the downforce loss. Others, and I may even put Hamilton in this group, can’t. It’s difficult to tell with LH whether he can’t or doesn’t see the need to risk it.
Can we have a whip-round and buy Andrew Benson a sodding thesaurus? If I see the word imperious used to describe Hamilton again I may just kick my monitor in.
I actually like the idea of Lewis being ‘overweening’.
imperious
adjective
overbearing, domineering, autocratic, despotic, tyrannical, dictatorial, high-handed, lordly, masterful, commanding, assertive, arrogant, haughty
formal peremptory, overweening
I actually like the idea of Lewis being ‘overweening’.
TBF, his performance this year justifies a bit of imperiousness. He can be a bit of a dick sometimes, but compared with Verstappen, he's pretty laid back.
TBF, his performance this year justifies a bit of imperiousness.
Im a Lewis fanboy so I agree. It’s Benson’s limited range of adjectives I don’t like. But do you mean Lewis is despotic or haughty?
he should come to the podium with this playing....
Totally!
the current merc does have whiff of Darth about it.
This is how I will remember the 2020 season.
the current merc does have whiff of Darth about it.
It reminds me of the University College Boathouse;
Merton
St Edmund Hall
Brasenose
University College - Welcome to the Death Star
Just bumped into a mate at Tesco. His son works for Mercedes and said the only real conversation this week has been about guaranteeing Bottas' second in the Drivers champs.
Noooo - that looked so bad.
Holy shit, what happened there?!
Not good :-/
Looked terrible - please let him be OK.
He's ok. Jesus christ
Bloody Hell!!
WTF!!!
Christ! So good to see him talking in the Med car. That looked horrible.
jeez that was nasty... good that he looks ok