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Merc are really taking the p**s. They run around q1/2/3 engines turned to eco mode to keep everyone interested and probably give Tracing point strat mode to makie it look closer than it is. Quite frankly its begining to be a bore fest
With respect, I think you should be aiming your anger at the scuderia and red bull that aren’t doing a good enough job.
F1 is a meritocracy, if you want evenly matched cars, watch Indycar, IMO
Doesn’t make for great racing (for victory) but I doff my cap to toto and his merc team, greatest F1 team of all time?
Can someone remind me why Grosjean is still in F1? He's a likeable character but is dangerous on track.
As for Merc winning everything so far, it's not Merc's fault that Ferrari bet the entire farm on carrying over the most potent engine on the grid, only to fall foul of the fuel flow rules. Leclerc drove well to bring it home in third, he's clearly driving a different car to Vettel. Red Bull too have a handful of a car that's costing Albon dearly, I reckon that it'll be a couple more races yet before the team address whatever glitch is hobbling them.
Bonkers. If only the preceding 50 laps had been anything like as action-packed. Anyone joining me in a rain dance this week?
On a weird tangent, anyone else notice the correlation between not taking the knee and wearing a mask?
...only to fall foul of the fuel flow rules.
That makes it sound like an innocent misunderstanding... 🙂
First race I watched live in yonks - awesome, what a finale! 🙂
it’s not Merc’s fault that Ferrari bet the entire farm on carrying over the most potent engine on the grid, only to fall foul of the fuel flow rules.
Two points:
i) As above, they didn't "fall foul", they got caught cheating with an engine that was deliberately not compliant with the rules. The only reason they weren't severely punished was the authorities couldn't definitively prove what they were doing.
ii) Having chosen to go down that route, they lost years of engine development because their engine and car is optimized for an illegal level of fuel flow. That means that the combustion chamber design and cooling are not optimized for the legal fuel flow level, so all of the engine development done around that fuel flow level needs to be scrapped and redone.
The other side of Hols point above is that it forced Mercedes to begin development of a more powerful engine to close the power gap to Ferrari. It worked AND Ferrari went backwards, so Mercedes effectively moved two steps ahead. In addition, Ferrari’s aero package for 2020 was designed around that engine power in a car with say 1000bhp, thus it had enough power to generate the correct downforce whilst maintaining speed. Now, they can either generate downforce OR speed, but not both. For someone such as Seb who likes a stable car with smooth power delivery, driving something so twitchy and jarring, must be very difficult.
Perez is going to the CRB:
I could imagine a big cheque book coming out to make that issue disappear (if indeed it is an issue)
I could imagine a big cheque book coming out to make that issue disappear (if indeed it is an issue)
Thing is Carlos Slim who is Perez backer could buy and sell Stroll 25 times over.
That makes it sound like an innocent misunderstanding… 🙂
i) As above, they didn’t “fall foul”, they got caught cheating...
@Pondo and @hols2, to clarify my tongue was firmly in my cheek with that!
My point was that Ferrari banked on having more horsepower when they designed the SF1000, now that their fuel flow system is fully legal and that they're down on outright grunt that the optimisations of the chassis and aero package are shown in contrast. The sector times at Silverstone seem to point towards reasonable mechanical grip in mid speed corners but it all goes pears in the faster corners and straights. One might enjoy a little schadenfreude at Ferrari falling foul of rules, but it's not something that can be easily addressed for this season and next. Red Bull have (another) diva, but even on it's best day the RB16 can't match the Merc, the development embargoes for 2020/21 may mean that resources needed to tame it are restricted.
It's 1988 all over again. Perhaps a wayward Williams might decide whether this is a season for the record books or not?
Re Racing Point.
Silvestone was a circuit where you'd expect a design heavily influenced by last year's Mercedes with last year's Mercedes' engine, gearbox, rear chassis assembly and a remarkably similar front end and aero package to shine. Hulkenberg's engine retirement aside, the team found themselves massively under-achieving again. Stroll's one lap pace is good, but race pace was hugely disappointing, finishing behind Ocon and Gasly. Would have been good to see Hulkenberg benchmark Stroll, Hulkenberg must be very motivated to finally be in a car that could earn him that elusive podium.
One thing with the Merc cars in the hybrid era is that they've all been fast, but often difficult to set up and drive - Hamilton's ability has often masked the weaknesses of the cars. Their qualifying dominance also masked how difficult some of their cars were to race in traffic. If they had clear air, they would cruise into the distance, but they would destroy their tyres if they had to follow another car. Racing Point are starting from scratch with a car they basically copied, so not really surprising that they are struggling a bit with set up.
Racing Point are starting from scratch with a car they basically copied, so not really surprising that they are struggling a bit with set up.
TBF even if they had an exact replica of the 2020 car you would still expect the Racing Point to be slower. Just because the team and driver combo isn’t the same calibre as the full works squad, therefore struggle to get the absolute best out of the car. They’d likely have some races where they’d sneak a better result but not many (see MotoGP satellite teams where 1 rider gets the works setup for example).
The fact that they are (kind of) doing their same but with last years more troublesome car, it’s not really a surprise to see them have poorer performances
Staggered that Tracing Point are trying to get Perez back in the car this weekend!...
“There was a little bit of confusion because it was on that cusp,” he said. “The inconclusive test was only inconclusive by FIA standards. By [Public] Health England standards that inconclusive test on Wednesday would have been a positive.
Is it me being a bit thick? I can understand how a test can be inconclusive (I had an 'Unclear' result myself) but positive/negative/unclear should be the same regardless of who reads the results?
Is it me being a bit thick? I can understand how a test can be inconclusive (I had an ‘Unclear’ result myself) but positive/negative/unclear should be the same regardless of who reads the results?
Its probably not as binary as a zero/one/null result.
The result is probably on a scale of 1-100. Different organisations may have different cut-offs for their own purposes
With regards to Ferrari and their current engine issues I do wonder if a part of the sealed agreement is that they stop pushing what ever boundary they were pushing as well as a development freeze on the engine for a period of time. You certainly wouldn't want your rivals (or customers) to know that your engine isn't going to improve for the foreseeable!
I do wonder if a part of the sealed agreement is that they stop pushing what ever boundary they were pushing as well as a development freeze on the engine for a period of time.
The FIA changed the way fuel flow is measured to prevent cheating. Ferrari can't keep "pushing boundaries" because what they were doing was cheating. Merc (with DAS) and Racing Point (with a copy of the 2019 Merc) are pushing boundaries, but openly and apparently legally.
Ferrari are allowed to keep developing their engine just like the other teams, but all the engine suppliers had to stop development during the lockdown. The exception to that was Honda, because Japan didn't have a lockdown at the same time as Europe, but they weren't sure if Japan might lockdown later in the year. Therefore Honda was allowed to continue developing during the European lockdown, but will have to stop for the same period of time over the summer. This means that Red Bull turned up to the first race with a revised engine, but Ferrari were locked into the same spec they turned up to Melbourne with. Renault and Ferrari (and Merc) should be able to introduce an improved spec soon, while Honda will be stuck with theirs for longer.
Nah, the boundary completely changed as a second fuel slow sensor was added so they couldn't
squirt between pulses*
*technical term
most of the other teams copied the high rake philosophy from red bull without really understanding it because they assumed if Adrian Newey was doing it it must be ‘right’.
I'm a big Newey fan and his book is a great read. He's so well regarded that I can imagine exactly this happening.
As to Merc making it boring.... nope. They provide their engine, which we're told is their magic bullet, to more teams than any other supplier, including Williams and Mclaren. These engines have to be exactly the same - no magic modes. Also, as Tracing Point have shown, the aero package of any car is on public display.
Basically, what I'm saying, is that everyone else is very average. To have Mercedes engines out there, no hidden aero tricks and still be done by over a second a lap is embarrassing. Not their problem.
Mercedes aren't supplying McLaren with PU's until next year. This year they are still running Renault PU's.
Good point! Hopefully Mclaren will put it to good use. With the engine and their engineering you'd expect them to be second in the standings. We'll see...
Problem for McLaren is that their car is designed around the Renault engine and all teams are required to run the same chassis next year as this year. This will limit McLaren's ability to optimize their car for the different layout of the Merc power-unit (which will require the aerodynamics of the back half of the car to be altered). Definitely a better engine, but they won't be able to take full advantage of it until 2022, when everybody has to start with a clean-sheet design.
This will limit McLaren’s ability to optimize their car for the different layout of the Merc power-unit (which will require the aerodynamics of the back half of the car to be altered).
I dunno, I seem to recall another team doing OK after shoe horning a Merc engine into the car at the last minute. Of course that was accompanied by massive rule changes which tends to shake up the order a bit, with concomitant loopholes to be exploited.
How will McLaren accommodate the Mercedes power unit?
Although the chassis design is frozen, McLaren will need to make changes to it in order to fit the power unit within the confines of its car.These changes can be done on safety grounds, as the internal combustion engine remains a structural part of the car in combination with the monocoque chassis.
I seem to recall another team doing OK after shoe horning a Merc engine into the car at the last minute.
They found a loophole in the aero regs that gave them a massive advantage over everyone else. Once the other teams modified their car to run double diffusers, Brawn fairly quickly fell back into the midfield.
The Merc engine is laid out differently than the Renault, with a split turbo and the layout of the cooling system will be different. McLaren will be able to modify the chassis to physically fit the engine, but they won't be able to optimize the aerodynamics around the sidepods, where the radiators, oil coolers, and intercooler are housed. That affects the airflow around the rear of the car, so the entire car really needs to be revised, which they will not be allowed to do.
The entire car needs to be designed around the engine cooling package, that's why Merc are both extremely aerodynamically efficient, but have sometimes been marginal in hot races - they pushed that optimization so far that they had an advantage in cooler races, but were undercooled for very hot weather. McLaren will have to be conservative on the cooling side of things, which means they will lose some aero efficiency.
I don't think that's quite right....from autosport:
McLaren will also have to redesign its rear suspension components for 2021 too, as the new power unit and gearbox combination it will use will have different pick-up points for the wishbones and track rods.
Aerodynamic changes may be in the offing too, as the bodywork will have to be changed to supply the correct amount of cooling for the Mercedes components.
Currently, the Renault and Honda powered teams prefer to mount some of the cooling components above the engine intake.
This results in a bulkier engine cover but allows the sidepods to become more tightly packaged.Both Mercedes and Racing Point have preferred not to mount them above the intake, but fellow Mercedes-powered runner Williams currently do so.
In that respect, McLaren may be able to continue with its packaging philosophy into 2021 without too many wholesale changes.
Looks like Merc have so much faith in Bottas that they've given him a one year contract. Russell will be looking forward to 2022.
Yep - Bottas passes his yearly appraisal once again! 🙂
Maybe why he didn't attack Hamilton too aggressively at the start of last week's race.
And for Bottas - it will be five years in the best team - I think that's enough time to win a championship in the car that every other driver says they can win championships in! Proves there's more to it than just the car.
Mechanical fault caused kvyats tyre failure
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151126/kvyat-british-gp-off-caused-by-overheating-wheel-rim
Whilst I wouldn't wish ill health on Perez that is great news about the Hulk.
Did not see that coming. I hope they have replacement parts ready to fit...
They should start a petition...
how long before they appeal? 3.....2.....1.....
15 points and 400K for the brake ducts - how much for the rest of the car?
I hope they have replacement parts ready to fit…
Car is legal, so they can run it as is, it’s just how they came to to design that Has attracted attention
I hope they have replacement parts ready to fit…
Racing Point have broken sporting regulations, not technical regulations. So the cars can run as is.
Mercedes admitted they had supplied information about the front and rear brake ducts of their 2019 car, but this was allowed because these were not listed parts at the time.
The FIA decided that the front brake ducts of the Racing Point were legal as, although they had been copied from Mercedes, they had been used on the 2019 car.
But a rule change between 2019 and 2020 added brake ducts to the category of so-called "listed parts" that teams have to design themselves.
Stewards found that Racing Point had used computer design data legally supplied by Mercedes to Racing Point in 2019 to design their rear brake ducts with "minimal changes" and fit them to their 2020 car.
As the parts had not been used on the 2019 car, they were not permitted to be used in 2020, because they were a Mercedes design, not Racing Point's, and had not been an integral part of last year's car.
The FIA said that had Racing Point asked whether they could use the 2019 Mercedes rear brake ducts on their car this year, they would have been told they could not. But they did not ask whether this was allowed.
so if they'd used the rear ducts last year, it would be OK?
As I understand it, they were allowed to buy brake ducts until this year, so they were using the Merc ones last year. They obviously copied them, the question is how they went about it - did they look at them and then try to recreate the function without making an exact copy or did they just measure them up and reproduce them exactly?
The rest of the car was copied by taking photos to get the general layout and proportions. However, they would have had to test everything in the windtunnel and tweak it, so the two cars are probably very similar rather than actually being identical in any way.
Edit: much better explanation above.
Hulkenberg was fourth fastest in practice this morning.
It would be an absolute fairytale result this weekend would be for him to win that elusive podium.
how long before they appeal? 3…..2…..1….
Horner reckons Renault will appeal cos the punishment is too lenient
loving that! Get in, Hulk!
Good grid as well, Gasly ahead of albon 👀
Hulk's CV looking good.
Vettel's CV not looking good.
Renault seem to have figured out their car. Looking hopeful for Alonso next year, won't be able to battle the Mercs, but Alonso vs Verstappen, Leclerc, Sainz, and Norris in the midfield should be excellent.
Totally Hulktastic.
Great Q3 from the Hulk!
Hulk to Racing Point next year Vettel to leave F1 will be the new prediction lol
I don't get the love for Hulkenberg....seems to me he's a mediocre mid-pack driver who stayed around way too long
Who after driving a car for about 2 hours total after being ways from the sport with all its difference in between put it in 3rd place? I’d say that’s pretty commendable...
I don’t get the love for Hulkenberg….seems to me he’s a mediocre mid-pack driver who stayed around way too long
One last day in the sun and he's making the most.
Why are they all where masks outside and observing 2ms distancing? What’s the point they are trying to make?
Why are they all where masks outside and observing 2ms distancing? What’s the point they are trying to make?
Because they're responsible and trying not to be like the ****wits who think everything is hunky dory now?
Who after driving a car for about 2 hours total after being ways from the sport with all its difference in between put it in 3rd place?
Yeah but in f1 since 2010, no podium, never picked up by a top team, just trundles around in the middle. Waste of a seat.
Yeah but in f1 since 2010, no podium, never picked up by a top team, just trundles around in the middle. Waste of a seat.
Being a consistently good driver is a waste of a seat? Stroll is a waste of a seat.
Being a consistently good driver is a waste of a seat? Stroll is a waste of a seat.
He isn't constantly good though, he is constantly average at best. A persistent bottler who was always overlooked by the main players.
I don’t get the love for Hulkenberg….seems to me he’s a mediocre mid-pack driver who stayed around way too long
I think he's generally recognized as a decent driver, often fairly quick, but never quite managed to reach the podium due to bad luck and mistakes on his own part. His qualifying performance was impressive, that's why he's getting all the love today.
He isn’t constantly good though, he is constantly average at best. A persistent bottler who was always overlooked by the main players.
Who would you have put in the seat?
Enjoyed that, great drive by Max wonder what's going on with the merc, temperature related i guess.
Savouring the ferrari/vettel shitstorm that's brewing 😁
Bottas sounded like a broken man in the interviews 🙁
something really fishy about the merc tyre choice, they could have quite comfortably qualified on the hard tyre (horners jaw is still scrapping on the ground after Bottas banged in a 15 dead on it last week) and went instead on a tyre they disregarded (and didn't use last week in the race) as a race tyre in more adverse conditions and used it to start, most bizarre.
LH walking off with P1 trophy
Really?!! Wow. Shades of Vettel there.
Really?!! Wow. Shades of Vettel there.
Reported.
Not allowed to post negative comments about Hamilton here. Not even about his rap career
Ha ha!
He’d have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for that pesky kid!
Savouring the ferrari/vettel shitstorm that’s brewing 😁
The radio comment from Vettel telling his team they'd screwed up putting him back in traffic. I SO wanted the reply to be that he wouldn't be there if he'd managed to start without spinning it...
something really fishy about the merc tyre choice, they could have quite comfortably qualified on the hard tyre (horners jaw is still scrapping on the ground after Bottas banged in a 15 dead on it last week) and went instead on a tyre they disregarded (and didn’t use last week in the race) as a race tyre in more adverse conditions and used it to start, most bizarre.
Pirelli supplied tyres that are one step softer this week
Pirelli supplied tyres that are one step softer this week
yes I know, merc ran medium in quali 2 (and were still 1 sec faster than the competition) last week which was the hard this week. The medium this week which they ran in quali 2 (and hence their start tire) was considered last week to be an unsuitable race tyre.
Different minimum tyre pressure rules from Pirelli this week.
surely that just changes everyones times up or down. relative times should remain pretty similar.
Tyre wear will depend on downforce. Mercedes, because they have the most powerful engine were carrying a lot more of it than either Red Bull or Ferrari. Coupled with the higher pressures and track temperatures, this will put high strain on the centre of the tyre at the rear and the inside edge on the fronts.
Klunk
Membersurely that just changes everyones times up or down. relative times should remain pretty similar
Softer tyre = more sidewalL movement = more heat = more blisters
Softer tyre = more sidewalL movement = more heat = more blisters
exactly, so why did mercs run last weeks softest compound tire in quali 2 this week ? when they had a second over the pack running the harder compound.
exactly, so why did mercs run last weeks softest compound tire in quali 2 this week ? when they had a second over the pack running the harder compound
They thought they’d have pulled out half a pit stops gap in the time it took for that to go off then run hard/hard to the end. But that didn’t account for max - or everyone else - being as close to them as he was. So, this weeks medium / last weeks soft was a disaster which went away even sooner than expected, and max tyres lasted much longer than Mercs to compound the issue.
Then even worse, the hard performed even worse than their expectations. What they expected in stint two was the pace Lewis had at the end of the race, but that didn’t materialise
Apparently Merc ran lower downforce to avoid overloading the tyres like last weekend, but that made the car slide more. The higher tyre pressures meant the middle of the tread was overheating, plus the thicker tread on new tyres retains heat more. They also adjusted the setup to try to avoid overloading the front tyres, but that just made the rear tyres overheat instead. The Red Bull was easier on tyres, so Max could push hard right after his pitstops, whereas the Mercs just blistered their tyres when they tried to match him. It says a lot that finishing 2nd and 3rd is seen as a disaster.
^ That makes sense