[Closed] F1 2017 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

I wonder what was going on in Lewis' head after the first 10 seconds of that race, as everyone crashed to his left then Vettel spun off for no particular reason (as far as he knew at the time) right in front of him?

"WTF just happened?" I'd guess

He was expecting to run a long and hard race to try and creep up the standings to avoid losing too much time but before he could blink he was in the lead with all his main rivals out of the race!

He really hates going slowly though, doesn't he? When asked to peg his speed back to bunch up racers behind him "that doesn't feel right, I want to go fast" .... "ok Lewis, err go for it then!".

When asked to peg his speed back to bunch up racers behind him "that doesn't feel right, I want to go fast"

He was quite happy to do it to Rosberg when it was his only hope of winning the championship, so he does seem a bit flexible on that.

[quote=Solo ]However, that doesn't address the psychological war between SV and MV.
If it hasn't already been established, then both will want to prove to the other that in such a situation, They ain't gonna budge. Who "owns" who, etc, etc.

It's an interesting point - I wonder what was going through Vettel's head before the start. He must have been conscious that Max is very good (and fearless) in the wet, and if he acknowledges his weaknesses at all he should be aware that he doesn't have that good a record in the wet (not in comparison to the other top boys) I'm not sure if I'm being unfair and forgetting a stunning drive he did, but I can also think of great drives in the wet by Hamilton and Alonso and also of course Button in 2011 in Canada when Vettel messed up.

[quote=hols2 ]He was quite happy to do it to Rosberg when it was his only hope of winning the championship, so he does seem a bit flexible on that.

and then in a complete reversal his team were complaining at him doing it, despite it clearly being in his best interests - his best interests were served perfectly well by driving fast yesterday. You could almost get the impression that LH is better off ignoring his team instructions...

[I]aracer - Member

It's an interesting point - I wonder what was going through Vettel's head before the start.
[/I]

I was minded to make my comment, after recalling Martin Brundle's comments about Senna and how he'd try to psych-out other drivers so that if they saw him beside them, they'd just get out of his way.

My read is MV likes/chooses to play the part of arrogant, fearless, new-boy. Ultimately, imo, all parties need to reflect and work out how they are going to decide a corner in future.
Luckily nobody was hurt, AFAIK.

I felt very bad for Alonso, who was running as high as third place when he was swiped by a ricocheting Raikkonen. Who knows, he could have bagged a podium spot...

I'm not sure if I'm being unfair and forgetting a stunning drive he did

His first win at Monza in the Toro Rosso was in the wet iirc.

Edit: but yes, when you think of wet-weather greats Vettel doesn't instantly spring to mind.

Edit: but yes, when you think of wet-weather greats Vettel doesn't instantly spring to mind.

In fact, most of my memories of him in the wet in his Red Bull days are of him whinging about wet races being too dangerous whilst Button and Lewis pleaded for the race to continue.

What exactly do you think Max should have done differently (preferably without requiring ESP)?

He could have backed out of the move, braked earlier etc. I'm definitely not pinning the blame on him but they all have two pedals.

There was nothing MV could have done.. SV was trying to squeeze him out but didnt know that KR was along side him. KR was trying to squeeze him over to make a little room. MV had nowhere to go.

I felt very bad for Alonso, who was running as high as third place when he was swiped by a ricocheting Raikkonen. Who knows, he could have bagged a podium spot...

[img] [/img]

If you watch the replay and listen to MV, he does try to brake. At the point just before the collision with Kimi, you can see the RedBulls nose dip, just as Kimi moves out from the side of the track in preparation for the first corner. But as Max correctly pointed out, it was wet and the back of the new cars is wider than the front. Meaning that a still accelerating Kimi and Seb managed to pinch a slowly decelerating Max, ripping the rear from Kimi's car and slamming the front wing of Max's into the sidepod of Seb's before a spinning Kimi slammed nose first into the side of Seb, puncturing the Rad and the Oil cooler.

A podium for Alonso was never on the cards once the track started to dry. Lewis pulled out over 2mins (neutralised 3 times) over the field below the podium finishers.

There was nothing MV could have done.. SV was trying to squeeze him out but didnt know that KR was along side him

Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. If need driven straight bed have been fine. End of the day SV and MV are both trying it on and both lost due to their own bloody mindedness. Both are to blame, to say MV did nothing wrong I just don't agree with, was roughly 50:50.

James Allen is rarely far off the mark in his analysis:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/09/singapore-f1-start-accident-were-raikkonen-verstappen-and-vettel-all-entitled-to-go-for-it/

Yes, that James Allen sets it all out pretty clearly in my view. However it's great that it's got so many people talking about it! Any increase in interest in the sport can only be a good thing after the slightly dull years of Mercedes domination and as it heads torwards a self-imposed eclipse behind the Sky pay-wall..

Yeah its a tough one but the defence that Max was going in a straight line does not wash , his straight line seems to have 3 differnt headings before the crunch.

Kimi , sneaky blinding up the inside move.

Seb , blatant cut across the bow Shumiesque move.

Max , this way , no that way , no th.. Bollox!

Thats racing for you.

Ferrari a nasty team with an attitude problem

Anyone watch Mark Webber try and get a comment from Maurizio Arrivabene ?

[quote=dragon ]Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. If need driven straight bed have been fine. End of the day SV and MV are both trying it on and both lost due to their own bloody mindedness. Both are to blame, to say MV did nothing wrong I just don't agree with, was roughly 50:50.

You're a Ferrari/Vettel fanboi clearly! So you're blaming it on him because he moved to the right off the start line (as I pointed out before, so did most of the drivers on the left, because that's the route to the racing line) way before Vettel slammed hard left into him? Or because he didn't lift off until it was too late, because he didn't realise Vettel was going to be a complete idiot? There is no requirement for MV to stay on the original line he is on the grid all the way to the first corner and so making the corner much tighter, that would be nonsensical.

This whole argument is victim blaming - it's like saying that a cyclist is partly to blame for not braking when a car left hooks them.

As I also pointed out before, the fact first contact was between MV and KR (because Vettel had succeeded in intimidating Max at that point) is irrelevant. Even if Max had stayed on the line to the right the whole collision would still have happened, it was inevitable from Vettel's trajectory. The only person who could have prevented the collision once the 3 cars were alongside each other was Vettel.

I can understand the FIA deciding is was a racing incident, but if you think Max was anywhere near as culpable as Vettel you were watching a different race to me.

Must be nice for Lewis not being involved in any it all 😀

[url= https://gfycat.com/SaltyOddAcaciarat ]looped[/url]

Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. 

I have to say, after watching that gif loop of the crash, it's very hard to see how Verstappen could be held responsible for it...

Both SV and KR ahead of MV and closing in from either side?
Time to hit the brakes Max. The two Ferraris ahead gives them the corner.
SV entitled to one move - perhaps a little enthusiastic, try considering whether the other guy can move/brake.
KR - good start, unlucky, probably the only blameless one here.

Time to hit the brakes Max.

If he's had hit the brakes, Kimi's rear wheel would still have collided with his front. Don't forget they're quite a bit wider at the back now.

In fact in his interview he said that he did brake.

I'm shocked that anyone is trying to defend Vettel in this, there's only one driver in that gif spearing across the track with acres of tarmac to his right.

Which under the rules he is allowed to do - however unwise it was.
They're racers. Vettel wasn't going to give the line into the corner to Max, Max wasn't going to brake earlier (i.e. before the gap closed enough that he had to hit Kimi) - result, crash.

I agree Vettel is meant to give Max one car's wish of track, but unless he knew Kimi was there (and he wouldn't have been in Vettel's mirrors or direct sight) then he would have thought he had.

Can't argue that Vettel didn't break any rules, but it's still his movement that caused the accident, the other two were more or less going straight.

I'm not arguing that it was against the rules. I'm pointing out that of the three drivers involved, one of them could've avoided the whole incident by taking an action that wasn't 'not occupying that particular 3D space at that particular point in time'

Vettel has form for massively aggressive chops of the start line that rely on the other guy getting the hell out of the way, just ask Mark Webber. When they don't/can't he and his team need to be big enough to admit they screwed up.

Well yes - ish.

Normally that move would have just shut the door on Max with no contact. But with a second car there that Vettel couldn't see, then yes it caused it.

Makes one wonder if there is a case for teammates being able to talk to each other at the start. But that would probably introduce more problems.

Vettel has form for massively aggressive chops of the start line that rely on the other guy getting the hell out of the way, just ask Mark Webber.

If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

The main issue is F1 and especially street circuits making the start so crucial that drivers are willing to risk the race on it.

I don't think anyone was really at fault but as has been said it was really Vettel that instigated it. Sure, he could have not tried to shut the door so hard but I don't really blame him for it (and yes he would have expected to be able to squeeze Max over and wouldn't have realised Kimi had given him no where to go).

But fundamentally the sport is broken and this is just one of things that leads to.

Good questions.

But he's relied on the other drivers sense of self preservation for too long. Hopefully this help him learn not to be quite so agressive, but time will tell and I suspect not.

If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

[quote=igm ]Time to hit the brakes Max. The two Ferraris ahead gives them the corner.

They were miles away from the corner, not yet in the braking zone - Vettel was wanting Max to give him the straight. All these suggestions that Max should have backed off and hit the brakes - well apart from the fact he did when he saw the collision coming, the driver in front moving across isn't entitled to do so in such a way that the driver alongside is forced to back off to avoid a collision, not on a straight. The rules explicitly say that a driver alongside (as Max was) has a right to space. The "Max should have backed off" argument acknowledges the imminence of a collision caused by Vettel.

[quote=igm ]Which under the rules he is allowed to do - however unwise it was.

Vettel was entitled to move right across to block if he had been completely in front, but because of his relatively poor start he wasn't so Max had a right to space. The rules still don't allow you to spear across in the way Vettel did there. Sure he might not have known that Kimi was there (though he would have appeared in the mirror at some point), but Vettel should have known the possibility that there might be another car there given his own slow start.

[quote=igm ]If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

The former you're basically enabling bullies, the latter I tend to agree with - under current regulations and the way such incidents have been dealt with in the past the stewards decision was consistent, I don't think most people would have thought it at all unjust for Vettel to have been penalised though. TBH though this incident has brought up Baku again and Vettel should probably have been black flagged there - that might have made him calm down a bit, and letting him off there has simply encouraged him to continue with his overly aggressive approach.

You've go to remember in all this that the decisions they make aren't something they really get to think about. It's all instinct in that sort of melee.

I'm normally one to knock SV but he was doing the same thing that other pole sitters do. I think the decision by the stewards was the right one. It's not as if they do "mirror signal manoeuvre" like we do on public roads! I hate to defend SV but the speed that KR came up between them was something I've not seen very often in recent years, SV's start wasn't amazing but wasn't dire so I think it's reasonable for him not to expect KR to be there.

What I detest about SV is his absolute belief that he never does a thing wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I still can't believe what happened in Baku and I can agree with a previous poster that he should have been black flagged in that case and this might have calmed him down a bit.

Martin Brundle has just put a very good article (titled "Vettel losing risk game") that nicely summarises the start line incident on Sky sports news about half an hour ago. I can't help but agree with:

"Vettel squeezing Verstappen, who is not his championship rival, so hard in those conditions created a high risk of contact, a puncture, or being turned around. He should have kept more to the outside and swept into turn 1 on the ideal line. Moving significantly across a wet grid is always high risk"

He also says the following, which some people have already discussed (i.e. Vettel should know better having raced cars for a long time):

"Vettel had no way of knowing Raikkonen was there as he aggressively went to cover Verstappen. Equally, especially in those conditions, he should not have assumed nobody would be there".

My view is that Vettel made a very bad judgment call and it cost him dearly. I don't think he should be penalised and agree with the racing incident conclusion but as above, he was the only one with the ability to have changed the outcome.

Brundle talks sense once again.

he was the only one with the ability to have changed the outcome

Not 100% sure on this, although I agree this is the most contributing factor.

Kimi also seemed to misjudge the width of his new wider 2017 car when he started moving to the right to make the 1st corner a bit easier to take.

"Vettel losing risk game". Sums it up in 4 words!

Brundle talks sense once again.

+1 - and this from his article too...

Verstappen couldn't get out of the throttle or the way quickly enough, and he's in a race down to the first corner he wants to win. If you jump on the brakes every time a car pulls alongside away from the start, just in case something might happen, then you are not a racing driver.

It was a racing incident, these things happen

In years gone by self preservation stopped incidents like these. Making a mistake or belligerent driving on track carry far less risk than they ever have.

I am not saying the drivers should be less safe, just that there needs to be other checks and balances. As other poster have said, use of the black flag and penalties for infringements that really hit the teams/drivers in the pocket. This would of course need to be WC points as silly things like actual money would not even register for the big teams and drivers.

F1 really does not have long to get its house in order. I for one would be as happy to see autonomous cars as a purely engineering showcase. Really we are not that far from it now.

Kimi also seemed to misjudge the width of his new wider 2017 car when he started moving to the right to make the 1st corner a bit easier to take.

I for one would be as happy to see autonomous cars as a purely engineering showcase. Really we are not that far from it now.

pondo - Member

I for one would be as happy to see autonomous cars as a purely engineering showcase. Really we are not that far from it now.

How do you mean, autonomous? Like, no regs?

No I mean no driver. like the thing all the car manufacturers are trying to make for the road at the moment.

Ah, ok - interesting! Racing cars with potentially no sense of self-preservation - how aggressive can you be and still finish the race! 🙂 Like the idea but it's the human element that makes racing for me. 🙂

[quote=dooosuk ]Kimi also seemed to misjudge the width of his new wider 2017 car when he started moving to the right to make the 1st corner a bit easier to take.

Sure, but there was nothing he could have done which would have resulted in a different outcome (apart from make a much worse start and not be there). Vettel's trajectory left less than 2 cars width between him and the wall, even if Kimi had been brushing the wall and they'd all slotted in together with overlapping wheels. It's not like they just touched.

I've just realised something regarding comments about Vettel being in front of Max - well yes he was when the collision happened, because Max [b]had[/b] braked.

Brundle article to save searching http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11042927/brundle-vettel-losing-risk-game

but there was nothing he could have done which would have resulted in a different outcome

If he'd held his line the initial contact may not have happened and then who's to say whether Vettel's move would have resulted in the same outcome.

I agree Vettel's move was the main contributor; just surprised that the fingers are only pointing and SV and MV when the first contact may have been avoided if Kimi hadn't misjudged the width of his car when moving right.

Ricardo was also slowing relative to other cars.

Max may have braked or may have run out of boost - you need to see the telemetry.

However you may be right. He's not known for not keeping his foot in but nor is Vettel.

[quote=dooosuk ]If he'd held his line the initial contact may not have happened and then who's to say whether Vettel's move would have resulted in the same outcome.

I don't think there's any question that there would still have been a collision - check Vettel's track position and the direction he is heading before he has hit anything and clearly there isn't going to be space on his left for two cars. I suppose you could just about argue that Max might have successfully braked his way out of it if Kimi had been further left, and the crash might not have been bad enough to take any of them out but it's hard to see how there could have been no contact at all.

I for one would be as happy to see autonomous cars as a purely engineering showcase. Really we are not that far from it now.

"Not that far from it" as in it already exists and it's called RoboRace? (Well, they've run the first public race, the championship hasn't started yet.)

And one of them wiped itself out against the barriers, just like the pros 🙂

what Vettel did was just as bad as Grosjean at the start of the 2012 Belgian GP so deserves a ban.

Back to the inicident, I think DC got it right in the commentary on the spot. What vettel did was legitimate but high risk and was the catalyst for taking four cars out of the race.

Personally I think the violent sideways lunge is a dick move, people have very nearly been put into pit walls on main straights at the thick end of 300k by drivers like Schumacher doing it and, while it's pretty hard to use the rule book to stop it, it relies too much on everything being as the swerving driver optimistically expects it to be, and it's too often too close to a massive incident.

It seems pretty optimistic to think that doing it on a track that no-one's raced in the wet before, trying to close out one of the best wet drivers, with another eighteen drivers right behind you (actually seventeen, which was Vettel's mistake), would have a high chance of going well.

I'm just happy Vettel gifted Hamilton around 40 points in a race he was favourite to win and Mercedes were struggling.

It was even a bonus he managed to take out Kimi as well so Ferrari lost out to Mercedes big-time in the constructors' championship too. Karma.

Three of them quite rightly going for it to be first round turn 1. Two of them with nowhere to go without giving up early. One with acres of space. Vettel was a dick, and I'm delighted for him.

Really interesting insight into oil burning and managing engine damage cycles here:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/09/weekend-debate-oil-burning-in-f1-engines-a-fans-view-and-an-engineers-view/#comments

It sheds a little light on Mercedes' ability to turn up the wick during qualifying!

How is it introduced? Feed from sump to intake manifold? Slack rings?

How is it introduced?

That's what I'd like to know. I assume it must be through crankcase ventilation into the intake because you'd need to be able to control it in order to turn it up or down for qualifying, etc. Also, I think they were using a supplementary oil tank which was suspected of having a different oil (i.e. one designed to be burnt as fuel), so they must have had some way of feeding that oil into the system when required and then controlling how much was burned.

[url= https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-concern-over-f1-engines-burning-AlqP8ipBTayr9251BDyNiA?iid=AijwXoAESrm2vLC2OPyR2Q ]Explanation of oil burning control here.[/url]

New title sponsor for Red Bull for 2018

[url= http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/132012 ]Linky[/url]

Gasly in for Kvyat?...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gasly-poised-racing-debut-kyvat-957782/

Good news! 🙂

It'll be interesting to see how he does, I hope he does well!

Ooof that's gotta hurt. He's just not delivered though.

Looking forward to see what Gasly can do.

It appears to have been confirmed by TR
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41397848

The 21-year-old Frenchman, who won the GP2 series last year, will replace Daniil Kvyat "for the next Grands Prix", Toro Rosso said in a statement.

Hmmm, 'Grands Prix'- plural!!

One expects Gasly will stay, and that Kvyat will surely not come back.

The hot tip is Japanese Nobuharu Matsushita. The Formula Two race-winner is a protege of Honda, whose engines Toro Rosso will have next year.

Has Nobuharu Matshushita got his super licence yet?

Another possible ramification- Nobuharu Matshushita's name might get shortened to 'MAT'- which is my name- win! 🙂

I do feel a bit sorry for Kvyat, who has looked utterly lost since losing his Red Bull seat to Verstappen last year. It's not the first time that TR have played around with driver choices mid-season, but I expect Kvyat will be driving sportscars or Indy next year.

BTW, anyone remember the season when you had to be named Seb to drive for Red Bull/Toro Rosso?

I do feel a bit sorry for Kvyat

He should get a reasonable settlement given he's only just signed a new contract (or did I just dream that?)

No, he really did sign a new contract recently.

Will he be driving an Aston Martin at Le Mans next year?

Will he be driving an Aston Martin at Le Mans next year?

Fixed that for you.
Will he be [s]driving[/s] crashing an Aston Martin at Le Mans next year?

[quote=PJM1974 ]I do feel a bit sorry for Kvyat

Yeah - but the F1 driver market is ruthless, and TBH he's not proved himself to be any better than Palmer who nobody seems to be shedding any tears over. There are only 20 seats available and plenty of drivers knocking on the door who might have the potential to be a star. I think it's quite clear after the number of races he's had that whilst Kvyat might be a competent driver he's not WC material.

Another possible ramification- Nobuharu Matshushita's name might get shortened to 'MAT'- which is my name- win!

Or NOB (which isn't my name!)

might get shortened to 'MAT'- which is my name

BTW, anyone remember the season when you had to be named Seb to drive for Red Bull/Toro Rosso?

Indeed! Buemi, Vettel and Bordaís wasn't it?

AWESOME

*Nick likes this*

BTW, anyone remember the season when you had to be named Seb to drive for Red Bull/Toro Rosso?

During the TDF the commentator (I can't remember who) came out with the line "Froome's got more domestiques called Mikel with him than anyone else has domestiques" which I thought was pretty funny.

(Kwiatkowski, Landa & Nieve)

Hammy emulating John Surtees?

Hmm, I assume you're referring to this:

[img] [/img]

Usually just a new product launch he's promoting when he posts pic like that.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gasly-feels-sorry-for-kvyat-958520/

Gasly feels sorry for Kvyat over mid-season switch

I am pretty sure we will see him back on the grid at some point, [b]maybe[/b]."

And this under 'oooof'