[Closed] F1 2017 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

shermer75 - Member

They did, and it worked, then some people had the bright idea of a faster car making a better 'show' and they allowed the aero back again

Excuse me if I cover old ground, I daren't look at the thread until now in case I caught the result - I have the BBC to think for ruining that for me.

As soon as they started I had flashbacks of the 90s F1 era, massively capable wide cars, huge cornering speed, tiny braking zones and oh wait "it's very hard to follow the car in front" - great. Okay it’s not that bad, there was passing towards the middle and back of the pack – but when Hamilton on brand new tyres in a Mercedes couldn’t pass Verstappen on worn tyres in a RedBull or even get close to him I was worried.

Okay, there’s a few disclaimers – Verstappen is pure racer, he’s a hard driver to pass, but Hamilton isn’t shy at making passes.
Albert Park, whilst not quiet Monaco is still a street circuit.
Hamilton said he was struggling for grip all weekend.
The Mercedes – or at least the 2016 and 2015 version struggled more than the other front running teams when following.

I think this rejuvenated need for speed is a mistake – I think some fans feel the need to know that their sport is the top motorsport and when there was talk of some sportscars being faster perhaps they got their knickers in a twist – for me though, speed itself is just a number, 99% of the audience is watching it on TV – you can’t see an extra 20mph down the straight – it’s just not visible, the only difference to the live watcher would be a case to see them a bit clearer mid-corner before they disappear again.

Its been know for years that complex wings make it more difficult for following cars and the way to allow them to follow each other more closely is more mechanical grip and downforce from ground effect rather than wings.

They need to tighten up the regs on aero. I don't understand why it seems so hard to nail them down. surely they can right the rules in such a way that the cars down sprout ridiculous aero addenda from every possible surface

Rule 101:
Single element for the front wing, double element for the rear, maximum diffuser size. No other aero devices or we throw your car in the sea.

I tend to agree, Rich. My ideal for the wings would be something like that on the FW14b.

Aside from dirty air, it is annoying that one minor bit of contact can break a tiny virtually unnoticeable winglet and suddenly lose a chunk of pace.

Hopefully Ross Brawn will get things sorted next season.

P-Jay - Member
it’s just not visible, the only difference to the live watcher would be a case to see them a bit clearer mid-corner before they disappear again.

Quite, the cars look slow on TV anyway thanks (so I'm told) to the lenses they use. The speed of the cars being too low is not, and has not ever been the issue with the popularity of the sport IMHO. And anyway, if you want cars that give the [i]impression [/i]of being fast, bring back V12s and V10s that actually sounded quicker than a Mr Middle Management's 320d.

If you want cars that look fast get them moving, sideways (a little)! Even the worst cars are generally so planted that they're barely moving around. Less grip, moar power and get them fighting the car a bit more

[quote=richmtb ]Rule 101:
Single element for the front wing, double element for the rear, maximum diffuser size. No other aero devices or we throw your car in the sea.

I'm not sure that will do it on its own, though it would help. They also need to specify maximum sizes for the wings and maybe other stuff to limit the amount they do. More importantly though they need to open up the regs on ground effect - which actually involves allowing more diffuser, I'm fairly sure that isn't significantly affected by following. Effectively as I inferred above LMP1 style regs and most of the downforce generated in the same way as those. I presume wings are seen as part of the visual profile of F1 though, so would have to be kept, though playing a far less important role.

I'm really not sure why it isn't possible to do that with F1 - I know safety always gets mentioned, but they seem to cope with generating downforce that way with LMP1 cars and also I think Indycars/Champcars generate a lot of theirs that way.

An interesting side effect would be that a damaged front wing might not mean an automatic immediate pit as the effect on lap speed would be much smaller.

Trouble is that f1 sits at the top of a whole series of other formulae, and the fia (and fans) want it to be the "pinnacle of motorsport" so you can't have lower formulate with more power, more complex aero, better anything than f1 has.

That makes it a whole lot harder to make a major change to the direction of F1, doubly so when those other series are all owned and promoted by different people so you have business entanglement in there too. Though it seems liberty may be sorting out gp2 and gp3 as proper feeders to f1, so perhaps there's some hope brawn can come up with a long term strategy that makes sense for the fans, the drivers, the team owners, the broadcasters and the race promoters. Good luck Ross!

I'm really not sure why it isn't possible to do that with F1 - I know safety always gets mentioned, but they seem to cope with generating downforce that way with LMP1 cars and also I think Indycars/Champcars generate a lot of theirs that way.

It isn't possible as the sport has been run by people scared of change and allowing the teams to take too much control.

F1 would actually be safter than closed cockpit cars as they are shaped less like a wing so not as likely to get airborne when the air lower is disturbed (see CLR flip at LeMans and 911 GT1 at Road America, Muslanne corner did a good feature at the time)

IMHO F1 is and always has been it's own worse enemy.

The top teams with massive budgets want and expect to win, or at least maintain their position as 'front row teams'.

This might sound odd, but the teams and most people within the F1 circle take it too seriously - DC is the epitome of this - he used to say "why do we expect over-taking in F1, we qualify to ensure the cars go off in the right order according to how fast they are", he probably still does.
To them it’s a pure sport, a science to discover fastest, most efficient way to get around a track – and that does sound good doesn’t it.
I once saw an interview with Adrian Newey, and Christian Horner – I don’t really like Horner, but he does at least speak his mind (although he’s a terrible fibber) the interviewer was asking all sorts of technical questions and Newey was answering them in his usual slightly awkward way and finally they asked something like “if you were allowed total freedom from regulations, how much faster could you go?” Newey thought about it for a while, gave a few caveats and a lap time which was about half what they were doing at the time and the interviewer was shocked – but Horner didn’t agree – his answer was that – they could do this, and do that – but the cornerstone of it was this – they’d build 2 cars, one that could do the lap time Newey mentioned – for qualifying, and then a massive one for the race – a huge billboard for advertising that could complete the full race distance without stopping and could vary it’s width to ensure it was always the full width of the track at all times so no one could pass it, neither of them would have a driver on board, they’re too inconsistent and often don’t listen to instruction.

That’s how F1 thinks, they’re total competitors, given total freedom they will try to design a car that cannot be beaten – all the competition would happen away from prying eyes back at the factories. Don’t assume that all this ‘hard to follow’ stuff is an accidental by product of bigger wings – they will be designing them not only for grip, but to purposely upset the car behind.

What they usually forget though is whilst it’s a Sport, it’s also entertainment – and people want to see people using daring and skill to win, not some pointless facts and figures about G forces and laptimes. If we’re going to go back to the age of little or no on-track passing and all the racing done between the stops – then the races are about an hour too long, you might as well make them a 20 lap race and give them tyres that only last 7-15 laps, the rest if filler. Otherwise audiences fall again, Sponsors pay less or walk away and the teams lose.

To paraphrase something I read somewhere, the fundamental problem is that there is a qualifying session to find the fastest car, then the cars with the fastest at the front and the slowest at the back. In order to pass a car, you have to go faster than them, so there is an obvious problem with letting the fast cars start at the front. The obvious way to fix this would be to award half the points for qualifying, start the cars in reverse order, then award the other half of the points for finishing order. That will never happen, so the alternative is to set up a situation where relative car speed varies over the course of a race. The easiest way to do this is to have tyres that degrade quickly if abused, so that smooth drivers are rewarded and pit stop strategy can overcome the disadvantage of a slower car. That was tried and resulted in lots of changes in race leads, but everyone complained that the drivers couldn't drive flat out. So now we're back to a situation where the fastest car starts at the front and the relative pace of the cars doesn't vary much during the race. If you wanted a format that guaranteed almost no overtaking, this is exactly what you'd do.

Edit. Oops, beaten to it by P-Jay.

[quote=thepurist ]Trouble is that f1 sits at the top of a whole series of other formulae, and the fia (and fans) want it to be the "pinnacle of motorsport" so you can't have lower formulate with more power, more complex aero, better anything than f1 has.

Well at the moment LMP1 does have better underfloor aero than F1!

[quote=hols2 ]The easiest way to do this is to have tyres that degrade quickly if abused, so that smooth drivers are rewarded and pit stop strategy can overcome the disadvantage of a slower car. That was tried and resulted in lots of changes in race leads, but everyone complained that the drivers couldn't drive flat out.

The trouble is they did it badly. They did it so the tyres fell off a cliff if driven at normal flat out speeds, no abuse required. High linear degradation would be fine, but they seem to have skipped over that and just gone for hard tyres which last.

[URL= http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp36/londonladliam/jb.pn g" target="_blank">http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp36/londonladliam/jb.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Rule 101:
Single element for the front wing, double element for the rear, maximum diffuser size. No other aero devices or we throw your car in the sea.

I don't think this would work at all races. Hungary, for instance, is landlocked.

Good to see someone else win in a fairly straight fight, and Ferrari back up at the sharp end. The cars look properly fast too.
But I started not bothering even with the highlights last year and I'm not yet convinced there's going to be any better racing this year to get me properly back into it. Hamilton's inability to make an impression on Verstappen was a bit worrying. I'll give it a few more races on non-street circuits though!

Alonso quitting speculation is growing - a fiver on him not making it past Spain would have been a good bet!? And a good article on Honda's woes here...

https://drivetribe.com/p/Tc5VZJtKSCqnH5eHGhjFQQ?iid=CdavBufbTzu-wUlwHGLU8w

...as for the first race, yep it was a bit dull. But that perception is probably heightened because it's the first race and we want it to be awesome after a long winter's wait.

And I hope Red Bull join the battle at the front and make it a three way fight. Another good article about them and their simple car here as well...

https://drivetribe.com/p/A_kzZYmKR76pw3zKkxZkDA?iid=FdMeAfZETgWTf3jpNhynXg

Woo hoo, I'm second! Rather surprising considering I haven't got Vettel and Kevin crashed then failed to finish.

[quote=the-muffin-man ]And I hope Red Bull join the battle at the front and make it a three way fight. Another good article about them and their simple car here as well...
> https://drivetribe.com/p/A_kzZYmKR76pw3zKkxZkDA?iid=FdMeAfZETgWTf3jpNhynXg
br />

Gosh it's hard work reading that. Is English his first language?

To paraphrase something I read somewhere, the fundamental problem is that there is a qualifying session to find the fastest car, then the cars with the fastest at the front and the slowest at the back. In order to pass a car, you have to go faster than them, so there is an obvious problem with letting the fast cars start at the front. The obvious way to fix this would be to award half the points for qualifying, start the cars in reverse order, then award the other half of the points for finishing order. That will never happen, so the alternative is to set up a situation where relative car speed varies over the course of a race. The easiest way to do this is to have tyres that degrade quickly if abused, so that smooth drivers are rewarded and pit stop strategy can overcome the disadvantage of a slower car. That was tried and resulted in lots of changes in race leads, but everyone complained that the drivers couldn't drive flat out. So now we're back to a situation where the fastest car starts at the front and the relative pace of the cars doesn't vary much during the race. If you wanted a format that guaranteed almost no overtaking, this is exactly what you'd do.

Nahhh.

The easiest way to bring back the spectacle would be to make them 1500hp, low downforce, high mechanical grip, lighter weight death machines.

The easiest way to bring back the spectacle would be to make them 1500hp, low downforce, high mechanical grip, lighter weight death machines.

Manual transmissions as well to increase the risk of a missed gear change.

My pet theory would be to ditch qualifying and give each driver points. Every driver has the same number of points - it'd be about a 100 for a season - I haven't done the maths. 1 point for pole, 2 points for 2nd on the grid and so on. At the beginning of the season each driver has to choose their grid placements for the whole season by spending all their points with the champion the previous year going first. You can only choose each position once.

pointy end drivers would have to make tactical decisions about where to take front spots and where to take a hit at the back. The champion gets to choose their perfect selection based on the car's assets and things like good overtaking circuits but their nearest rivals and use their selection to out manoeuvre them as they will be making their decisions based on knowing the champions choices. The slowest cars would get the crumbs but would at least not always be right at the back.

Is anybody else having problems when transferring team members?

Panic over- the 'home' screen shows the team from the previous round, the 'manage team' screen shows the new team. User error! 🙂

Fixing F1 you say? 20 teams, winning a race gets you 20 points, getting pole gets you 20 points but you start from the back of the grid. Do the double, pole and win, to get 10 bonus points.

All the problems would vanish overnight.

No they wouldn't because the teams are smart enough to drive a quick car slowly and avoid getting pole. The only way reverse grids are vaguely workable is if you have two shorter races and start the 2nd in reverse finishing order. Even then the teams might decide that by finishing 6th in one race they then optimise their chances of maximising the points across both, so wouldn't race for the win (see comments above about them being professional racers).

thepurist - Member
No they wouldn't because the teams are smart enough to drive a quick car slowly and avoid getting pole.

Why would they do that if it meant missing out on points?

Get pole = 20 points but estimated finishing position only gets you another 11.

Start lower down (further forward) and you get 15 points for quali and estimated 18 for the race.

Why go for pole if it's not worth it? Then you get a bunch of cars all trying to go just slow enough in quali, which is hardly gripping. There might be a bit more passing in the race but a lot of it will be artificial, which is what everyone dislikes about drs

I've posted a lot about how I've grown frustrated with the sport and how it's lost a lot of appeal. A lot of fans - myself included - want a return to spectacular engines, but the manufacturers have invested so much in R&D for hybrids, with relevant technology in road cars some ten years down the line so it's hard to make a case for screaming V12s.

Someone mentioned camera angles. There's a great point that cameras far from the track have to zoom in and the visual drama suffers. Maybe drone footage might be a good place to start, or with track cameras embedded in the kerbs?

The teams themselves have little incentive to be there. What started out almost thirty years ago as a way of weeding out the amateurs from Pre-Qualifying has ended up with fewer and fewer teams, with an ill-weighted allocation of prize money. If you were Audi or Toyota, you'd think twice about investing in the sport as a constructor because it's nigh on impossible to progress.

Toyota themselves pulled out after a fruitless decade and Honda's £100m a year investment has resulted in few points, a p****d off ex-champion and a car that farts it's way round the track in sixteenth place.

First race grid based on qualifying - for race only points

Second race grid (and subsequent) based on reverse championship position at end of last race - points for qualifying (but not many) and for race (loads).

a car that farts it's way round the track in sixteenth place.

Thirteenth place.

Depends on what point of the race.

Depends on what point of the race.

A lot of people go on when you cross the finish line for the last time

Start lower down (further forward) and you get 15 points for quali and estimated 18 for the race.

You may well be right there but I can't help thinking that there will be 9 other teams trying to get pole [i]and[/i] win the race- which would make sandbagging in the qualifying stage a hell of a risk! 🙂

I know it will feel artificial but part of me would like to see the reverse qualifying idea, maybe at one of the [url= http://www.givemesport.com/998440-lewis-hamilton-open-to-ross-brawns-dream-idea-for-formula-one ]demonstration grand prix[/url] if that idea ever comes to fruition. If you kept the point structure the same as race day (25 for a win etc) then there would be a lot of incentive to get pole. It migth also give the lower teams a bit of a chance to score points! 🙂

Hows about races on sat and sunday

grid positions for sat is a draw out of a hat
grid for sunday is finishing positions on sat .

points given in both races

I suppose if you are giving points out on qualifying then it's effectively two races anyway. Not sure about picking the order out of a hat though- waaaay too many people are convinced F1 is a stitch-up as it is!! 🙂

A start/finish straight that is 20 cars wide at one end narrowing to normal width at the far end. No need for qualifying, fair start for everyone.

If you want to watch mickey mouse racing with reverse grids etc then stick to things like touring cars. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and should always be about the people who have done the best job winning. It's such a shame that the regulations are so tight these days. I wish there was still variability in engine configuration and body shape. They should define safety structures, length, width, amount of fuel allowed and then let them get on with it.

And if the only team that can spend enough to win sets team orders for the drivers?

And if the only team that can spend enough to win sets team orders for the drivers?

It's a team sport, I don't have an issue with that

How long's Alonso going to last then? And where would he go?

That's a great question, I guess he'll be keeping a very close eye on how Bottas and Renault are doing this season!

It's hard to imagine him going back to Ferrari, but I suppose at one point it was hard to imagine him going back to McLaren so who knows! 🙂

Its an entertainment business and as it is now its simply not entertaining enough

What is entertaining ( to the average punter) in motorsport is overtaking and seeing cars slide around and being able to see the skill of the driver.

shift from aero grip to mechanical grip to see a better spectacle

What if the teams were unleashed, no budget caps and no restrictions on available technologies etc? F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport but lacks a lot of technologies seen on some road cars (active suspension,traction control, ABS, rear wheel steering etc) no fuel limits and really let the teams loose to develop cars that truly are pushing the boundaries of technology, would that improve the spectacle or not I dont know, but at least then F1 would be the absolute ultimate of motor vehicle development. The only 'rules' would be the driver has to accelerate, brake and steer the car.

How about an air intake restriction formula for the engine maybe with a fuel quantity as well. apart from that anything goes bar aero

What if the teams were unleashed, no budget caps and no restrictions on available technologies etc?

If you could persuade Honda that it's worth the cost, four of the current 10 teams might survive. More likely you'd end up with just Merc and Ferrari. With only four cars competing, it would really suck to be the driver who didn't get on the podium.

All this pontificating about how to "fix" F1 shows how difficult it is and why Brawn is the right guy for the job. He knows that 'if the rules say X then the teams will do Y' and won't come up with schemes that are doomed to failure like knockout quali (or 'faster cars to improve the show').

Anyhow, [url= http://en.f1i.com/news/263462-audi-attend-next-f1-engine-meeting.html ]Audi haven't completely written off F1 yet[/url]

Sauber/Honda - they're determined to get that back of the grid slot back!...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sauber-considering-honda-mercedes-engines-for-f1-2018-887902/

I would absolutely love it if Sauber became a Honda works team. It would take the pressure off both McLaren and Honda as they are expected to be at the front of the grid, Sauber would get both the cash that they sorely need and- let's be honest!- they can only improve from where they are right now 🙂

Anyhow, Audi haven't completely written off F1 yet

Sounds good! Wasn't Bernie leaving the main prerequisite for VW joining?

Pascal to miss China now...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wehrlein-to-miss-chinese-gp-as-well-889333/

I've got a bet with a mate at work for the next GP. So using the wisdom of STW, who should I pick as the winner for China ?

We don't bet on Hamilton winning, just to make it more exciting and the winner for us doesn't have to win the race, just finish higher than the other one.

Last race I picked Vettle, he picked Bottas. Not sure who to pick for his one.

That Audi render is the best looking design on an F1 car this year - shame its not real!

I heard the weather was looking variable for China which could liven things up a bit.

thepurist - Member
All this pontificating about how to "fix" F1 shows how difficult it is and why Brawn is the right guy for the job. He knows that 'if the rules say X then the teams will do Y' and won't come up with schemes that are doomed to failure like knockout quali (or 'faster cars to improve the show').

Anyhow, Audi haven't completely written off F1 yet

Audi can sod off TBH, we almost got stuffed with 4 pot engines because of them.

So using the wisdom of STW, who should I pick as the winner for China ?

Baring accidents, break downs or freak weather it is hard to see anyone other than Vettel or Hamilton winning tbh. So I'd pick Verstappen 😉

[url= https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/224308/boullier-china-to-expose-mclaren-weaknesses ]Apparently, China might expose some weaknesses in the McHonda.[/url]

[url= https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/224379/f1-eyes-1200hp-twin-turbo-v6-engines-for-2021 ]1200 hp twin-turbo V6s a possibility for 2021[/url]

Anyhow, Audi haven't completely written off F1 yet

[url= http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/04/05/formula-1-interesting-for-audi-but-no-plans-to-enter/ ]Audi write off F1[/url]

[url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39265498 ]Fun quiz :-)[/url]

shermer75 - Member
Fun quiz

14/15 Can't believe they missed out Helmut Marko! Dude at the end caught me out.

BTW Has everyone got their changes in on the Fantasy F1 thingy?

http://fantasy.udt.co.za/f1/restricted/LeagueDetails.j?leagueId=757&pageNo=1&batchSize=50

Happy with my team so far - a bit too early to change!

Speculation in the paddock is the whole Wehrlein issue is very, very odd. Basically, unless he's broken his back/neck or something, lack of fitness wouldn't stop any driver getting in a car.

Or he's cock-sure of his contract with Mercedes!

Only got 13/15 on that quiz - two pics looked a lot like JV! 😀

Dude at the end caught me out.

Same! 🙂

Agreed the Wehrlein thing is weird. Back injuries are a funny thing though- they can have a surprisingly large affect on you mentally. Maybe he has a bad case of the yips?

I see alonso has said he's not quitting mid season. Still got my money on Barcelona.

The Wehrlein thing is pretty odd - especially as he's being comprehensively shown up by the reserve driver on loan from Ferrari who drove a faultless stint in qualifying and Melbourne.

If the injury is severe, then surely it's better to come right out and say so?

IIRC, Karl Wendlinger was another promising talent who was completely mentally banjaxed by a serious crash and who never quite recovered from the trauma. It would be a shame to see Wehrlein similarly affected.

I see alonso has said he's not quitting mid season. Still got my money on Barcelona.

Me too - especially as Honda have virtually admitted they don't know what they're doing!

Doesn't look good even for 2018.

If the injury is severe, then surely it's better to come right out and say so?

This is what I can't understand - it's not like he's a journeyman with no funding, trying to hide his true condition to keep a drive. He's part of Mercedes driver programme with all the support that goes with it.

In response to earlier posts. Why would Audi enter though?!!?
They've just had to ditch WEC (VW ditched WRC) having built a 2017 car due to VAG scandal...

Anyway. As for needing more power, the speed isn't the issue. unless they make them undriveable.

So McLaren have a new T-Wing - is there anything to stop them sticking little wings all the way down the shark-fin - It would look like a big radiator!...

[img] [/img]

(VW ditched WRC)

Possibly not as a factory team, but they cocked-up on the homologation which meant privateers couldn't run their 2017 car (which you can bet would have had factory support in some way or other).

And I can understand Audi pulling out of sportscars - what had they got left to prove?

The Wehrlein thing is pretty odd - especially as he's being comprehensively shown up by the reserve driver on loan from Ferrari who drove a faultless stint in qualifying and Melbourne.

Re the t wing, there's only a small box they can fit in within the regs, so we won't get uhf aerials down the shark fin. Hopefully next season they'll be gone along with shark fins.

I wondered when it was announced he'd miss China too how secure his seat is.

Do you think that is what it is? He simply can't be arsed? Amazing?!?!

What had audi got left to prove? Porsche had just beaten them again and the fact they had built their 2017 car after heavily updating their car for the 2016 season which was basically a single seater with more body work says to me the plug was pulled unexpectedly...

Do you think that is what it is? He simply can't be arsed? Amazing?!?!

Another good showing for the reserve guy and maybe...?

Ah, PW may be oot. Possibly! Maybe Ferrari will start giving them 2017 engines if they take on Giovinazzi! 🙂

Ah, PW may be oot. Possibly

FP2 cancelled due to fog! Medical heli can't fly so no running!

Hamilton playing the crowd brilliantly; wandering around handing our gear and getting in pictures.

Will make FP3 interesting - think the weather's meant to be a bit iffy for Sunday too so race setup and balance may prove to be as important as grid position. Expect some of the smaller teams may roll the dice & take a chance, while Merc/Ferrari/RB run through a rigid programme that's been calculated to the nth degree by the geeks back at base. In the Ron years McHonda would've done that too, now they might not be so dogmatic and at least they've saved a few miles on the engine.

They're not changing the schedule for the race 😀

Well that's been fun so far…

Get Pascal back in the car - this Gio bloke is rubbish! 😉

Really good to see Merc and Ferrari so close. Should push Hamilton into a few mistakes and make the races interesting.